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Yes. Athena knew all about Bobby’s family and his addiction issues before they got married. There is one episode in S2 where the firehouse eats some LSD laced brownies gifted to them and it is on what would have been Bobby’s daughter’s 13th birthday. During his acid trip he goes on the roof and claims to see her floating in the clouds. Athena is the one who talks him down. Later they discuss how painful thinking about his kids is but it is a bit of a positive turning point because it is also when May and Harry make an overt gesture showing they accept Bobby as part of their family. They ask him to pose with them for family photos. Thank you for the refresher. I do remember that episode, I just couldn't remember specific details. You're right, that was part of the comparison that I left off, so thank you for correcting me.

Although Buck is still not a favorite of mine (I do like him better than I did in the beginning though), I agree about the character growth. That is my biggest thing about watching the shows that I watch, is that at some point, I expect character growth, especially when a show has been on awhile. I gave up on a highly rated TV show after a number of YEARS watching because there was absolutely no growth with any of them. You just get fed up after awhile. I have to admit though, I'm surprised it took this long to get Buck's story. He's one I would have expected early on. Speaking of Athena and Bobby... does she know about his previous family, and his involvement in their deaths? I mean I figure she must, but I can't remember if it was ever actually discussed between them. Well, now that makes me think of how he handled it as opposed to how the Buckley's handled it. In a way, he does acknowledge the loss (sort of like he did in that scene with May in a previous episode) but he doesn't talk about it or about them (not that I expect them to be constantly on his mind), and just like the Buckley's moved, so did he.

This. When I was a kid, I was daddy's little girl but my dad began emotionally checking out when his father died. (I was 10.) It hit critical mass when I was a teenager and I spent a good long time afterward wondering what I did wrong to make him ... not like me anymore. I'm 39 now and I'm still working on coming to terms with/remembering that I did nothing wrong and it was always his issue, not mine. It still hurts. This is me as well. I had the same relationship with my dad when I was a little girl, he spent time with me, we were somewhat close. At some point, maybe around the time I was 10 or 11, he acted like he wanted absolutely nothing to do with me, and I know I did nothing wrong. It got to the point where I hated being in the same house, much less the same room with him. I'm almost 51 and I haven't spoken to the man (other than on a couple of brief occasions) in 20+ years. He knows what he's lost, just like Maddie & Buck's parents know what they lost. I just don't think either of them (my dad or their parents) care all that much.

A lot of good discussion on this thread. I just wanted to add a few of my own thoughts. I'm only really familiar with Karate Kid 1 & 2 (with 2 being my favorite). I've seen the other two (and also the Jackie Chan/Jaden Smith one, but I guess that one isn't canon), but they don't hold a special place in my memories the way the first two do. I'm trying to place my thoughts about Daniel and Johnny. 1st and 2nd seasons I see them as having some major growing up to do and season 3 them finally just starting to get there. Although Daniel has gone on to lead a successful, prosperous life, in a way had gone on to be the bigger asshole (him getting the landlord to raise the rent, trying to prevent CK's admission into the tournament--aligning himself with the belief that people can't change, and also assuming the current generation of kids is just like his generation, without knowing anything about them--but since this is season 3 discussion, no need for me to go further). It at least seems like he's starting to have some growth in that department. Johnny on the other hand is the boy who never grew up. He didn't know how to be a dad, he understood nothing about technology (my older brother who is a couple of years older than WZ is kind of like that when it comes to technology, so the situation is almost kind of funny to me) and he starts off making the same mistakes he did in his youth. I'm not going to spend much time talking about the adults though, because everything that's already been said about them in this post are mostly my own thoughts as well (a mixed bag). I have to say that I am stoked that the two of them finally teamed up. It's the only way they have a hairballs' chance in hell of defeating Kreese. Oh, Johnny's handling of Miguel and "teaching" him how to walk again. That was laughable. How I guess he just thought that Miguel's in ability to walk or feel his legs could be cured simply be him just wanting to. Especially right after he had surgery. Anyway, that's enough about the grown-ups. Oops I lied, one more adult mention... Kreese, there's not a single thing in his backstory that makes me feel sympathetic to the man he was in KK1 nor to the man he is now. I wish they hadn't even wasted any time on it, or that they'd shown he was always a bully from the start (and why didn't they just have Martin Kove's son play a younger version of him from the start--heck, I thought he was a young Kreese when I first saw him and I had no idea it was actually MK's son). The man is too far gone to be redeemable. Tory also fails to garner any sympathy for me either, because although her mother may be sick/dying and she may need to work two jobs (in addition to going to school) to pay for rent, again, there's nothing to justify her behavior in any of this. She is just a girl who chose to be mean. When she tells Robby "at least I know how to be true to myself," I kind of thought to myself "Really?" Would her very ill mother want to see her behaving the way she has been? I think not. I also fail to have any sympathy for Hawk either, for the simple fact in that he turned being bullied into bullying his own peers and friends (the friends he had when he was merely Eli). Bravo for him learning to stand up and defend himself, but at what cost? Yes, he finally came to his senses, but I think that was because he finally got to face one of past aggressors and beat him to a pulp. I know many think it was because he learned the error of his ways (and perhaps that is still true), but I think it largely had to do with him facing his demons. I hope he can be trustworthy. The one person I do somewhat feel sorry for is Robby and I can kind of see how he's allowing himself to be influenced by Kreese. Not only was he pretty much abandoned by his own father, his mother wasn't really there for him either (though he seemed to have no trouble forgiving her), and even Daniel failed him. Kreese is feeding him all of these lines, it's just the perfect setup. However, I hope he comes to his senses, although I doubt that will happen until the end of season 4. My only thought about that fight in the last episode (in addition to what's already been said) is that did not one of them think to themselves "umm, we're in someone's home, damaging someone's home..." Am I showing my age here? I'm not thinking about the kids injuring each other (because they got themselves into it), I'm thinking of them willfully damaging someone's personal property. I'm a jumble of thoughts here, but hard for me to be cohesive when discussing an entire season of episodes.

Yeah, I don't know if she consciously did it or if she was under so much grief. I think he felt his own sense of guilt about it too (the brothers were close) and having his mom blame him on top of it (or feel blamed by her) probably didn't help matters any. When his (sadly terminal) daughter was born a few years later, he allowed her to visit them at the hospital before her passing, but he made no reference to her as a surviving grandparent in the obituary.

Mine too, LOL.

I can't imagine them wanting to destroy all photos of their deceased son, even if they chose to ignore the fact that he ever existed. Maybe taking all the pictures they had of him and locking them in a box hidden away somewhere (or safety deposit box). But then, I guess everyone handles the loss of a child differently. But I do think it's sad that they hid his existence. Not the same situation, but I used to be babysit 3 siblings when they were kids. I reconnected with the family a few years later (years after I'd moved away) on social media, and come to find out that the middle child (mid-20's at the time) had leukemia and his younger brother (early 20's) donated his bone marrow (their older sister was pregnant at the time and couldn't donate). It helped at first, he went into remission for a few months, but unfortunately he eventually succumbed to the disease. I don't know all the details of what happened, but I can only guess that there was some huge resentment on their mom's part against him for not permanently saving his brother's life. He refuses to acknowledge her as his mother anymore. It's really a sad burden to place upon a child, even if that child is an adult. I stopped watching GH in 2000 (though I've caught a couple of Nurse's Ball episodes and some of Rick Springfield's return), so I'm not familiar with Gregory Harrison's storyline on there, however, I am old enough to remember him from both Logan's Run (tv series, not the movie) and Trapper John, MD., and let me tell you, aside from the grey hair, he looks the same as he did 40 years ago. I still can't help but think of The Librarians every time I see Albert. I keep expecting the other Librarians to appear unexpectedly, LOL.

Thanks for explaining it. I did think they were too far apart for it to happen, but since I saw her holding the bow after the fact, I just didn't give it more thought at the time.

Sorry, for some reason I can't figure out how to quote different sections, so I'll have to do it all in one big jumble here. 1. That's a very good theory about Allison and Luther. Doing it as a child, she may not have thought of the consequences, she just saw a boy she liked, not taking into consideration that he was her "brother," and wanted him to like her back, eventually growing out of that need and turning her attention to other guys, whereas Luther is forever stuck crushing on her. And with Vanya, at the time that she rumored her, at age 4, and doing what their "father" told her to do, I don't think she understood at the time exactly what she was doing, but she was being an obedient child and doing what dad told her to do and then like what many children do, she forgot all about it, until she saw (as an adult) that Vanya had powers and everything came back to her. 2. What you say about long-lasting and far reaching effects... yes, I agree. Take for example, Vanya's role as a violinist. where even as 3rd chair in her orchestra, she doubted her ability, especially when we see her practically begging for crumbs from the 1st chair. She believed herself to be so ordinary that it absolutely did affect every aspect of her life. I could even see it in the clothes she wore. As a side-note, on the episode where we see the flashback to what happened with Allison's daughter, my husband (jokingly? LOL) asks me "Why is her husband so mad at her for that? Wouldn't we all love to be able to that to our kids?" I can't remember what I said to him, but I guess it's the whole slippery slope thing. At what point do you not use that manipulation. It was already stated that it wasn't the first time she had rumored her daughter. What if, at some point in her daughter's future, she brought home a less-than-stellar report card and Allison goes "I heard a rumor that you always got straight As," and her daughter becomes so obsessed with making straight As that it completely over takes her life, to the point where she will do anything to achieve it (even ignoring her own health--physical and mental). 3. Didn't Vanya gesture as she was holding her bow? Didn't the action of swiping her bow across the front of her cause her to slice Allison's throat? Granted with the effect of the sound waves in contribution (not the word I'm looking for, but hopefully it makes sense). I hadn't thought it just being a sound wave. I need to go back and rewatch the scene again.

My husband and I just recently finished binging both seasons, so I'm a little late to the "party" here and I don't expect any response, but I wanted to give some thoughts. I read a few of the replies that says Robert Sheehan (Klaus) was typecast but this is the only thing I've ever seen him in, so I was not spoiled by that and my husband and I felt that his performance was one of the best, along with Aidan Gallagher (Five). I did think that AG pulled off an amazing performance of showing an angst-y old man trapped into the body of an angst-y teenager. BTW, why did he never change out of his school uniform?? LOL. I told my husband that probably the only clothes they had as children were those uniforms. I'm curious as to why, even though it's set in 2019, there were no modern conveniences. I mean all the cars were from the past (70's-80's?), no computers, no cell phones, etc. I imagine that's how it was in the graphic novels (except for the year probably being different) and they wanted to remain true to that. Kind of reminded me of Gotham in a way (except that they did have cell phones). I didn't care for Luther all that much. I felt like he was the weakest in terms of not only acting (I've seen him previously on Merlin and GoT, but I don't remember much about him on Merlin and GoT, his character wasn't all that well developed before he became dragon toast), which in this case may have been the blame of the writing, or maybe it's because his character was either meant to be boring, or to not have the ability to think for himself (outside of his father's own "teachings."), but just well, who he was. His astonishment or disappointment that his siblings all grew up and moved away just shows you how sheltered he was, I think probably more than any of them. I did feel sorry for him a way though, especially pertaining to what Reginald did to him (both altering his appearance, and leaving him on the moon for no reason). I didn't particularly care for the Luther/Allison relationship, because for me it was just "ew." I mean I'm sorry, even though they weren't biologically (that we know of--yet) related, they were still raised as brother and sister. All I can say is that I'm glad it hasn't gone too far, but I suspect at some point, it probably will. As of now, I don't have a lot to say about Allison, Diego or Ghost Ben (I would like to know how he died though), but maybe I'll come back later and edit that. Now my thoughts on Vanya. Forgive me, they are a bit of a jumble as I tend to jump around in my thoughts and they are unorganized. I will grant that her character too was a little bit boring and bland in a way, but even from the beginning, I suspected that she had powers. Now I've seen a mixed bag of reactions from Vanya, which doesn't need repeating, but I will say that I fall on the side of the sympathy camp, because in a way, I empathize with her. Many like to point out that all 7 of the kids were treated horribly by their father, and that is definitely true. The man was despicable. But Vanya was the only one who "lashed out" so to speak. Let me point out a major difference between the 6 and number 7. Although his parenting skills were obviously lax in all of them (he treated them more like science experiments than actual children), Vanya was the only one who was shunned, made to feel like she had no place in the family, not only by him, but by her siblings. Now I don't feel like it was intentional on their parts, they were a product of their raising. They grew up seeing him shun her and they, for whatever reason, just thought it was normal I guess. I know what it feels like to be shunned and treated like an outsider, so I can identify with her. Yes, it was absolutely horrible what she did to the nannies, but I don't think she realized what was happening to them. I mean, she was 4, and as mentioned previously, Reginald's answer was to bring in a new nanny, rather than explain to her that she was causing serious harm and hurting people (BTW, at 4, I hated oatmeal too). I mean I don't really blame Reginald for suppressing her powers, especially if he didn't know what to do with her, but he didn't need to treat her like she was a worthless nobody either. One thing that stood out to me was how they were having their family pictures taken and he refused to let her get in on any of them. She wanted to belong so badly, and he just kept shoving her her away, reiterating the thought she had no place with them. I don't blame her for latching onto the first person to ever show her any sort of kindness or compassion. Leonard gave her exactly what she'd been looking for (even though he turned out to be so horrible himself--there was a reply on page 1 or 2 of this thread, someone asking if he reminded anyone of Syndrome and I had said the exact same thing to my husband). I'm actually really not one to be sympathetic when someone grows up to do horrible things because they may have had a shitty childhood, but we don't have a literal ticking time bomb hidden away inside of us. Someone else said that she tried to kill Allison. No she didn't. There was nothing intentional about her striking out at Allison. She just had years and years of anger built up inside of her, and this power feeding off of it and Allison, being unrelenting, not backing off and leaving Vanya alone when she asked, and it just exploded. One of the most frustrating things for me, when I'm upset and need time to process things or calm down, is having my husband (or anyone) harping at me non-stop, because he has to have his say right then, right there. If someone tells you to leave them alone because they are too upset to deal right at that moment, then leave them alone. I'm not saying Allison deserved to get her throat slashed, but Vanya, combined with the anger she was feeling and knowing that Allison had rumored her as a child, and was once again, about to rumor her again, you know that she was thinking "Oh no, you will not do that to me again" and she struck out, though I don't think she even realized anymore that she had the bow in her hand (at first, I thought it was a sword for some reason). You could tell she felt instant remorse, and had Leonard not pulled her away, she probably would have stayed right next to Allison. That isn't someone who is evil, that is someone who wasn't taught to control her emotions, and her power being set off by sound (and fueled by anger). And then her, coming to the realization that Leonard had manipulated her, wanting to return to her family, even though they had shunned her, wanting to make amends, feeling total guilt over what she did to Allison, and Luthor goes and locks her up, once again, reiterating all the betrayal she had suffered for decades at the hands of her family. It was really no wonder that she blew up the way she did.

I forgot when I stopped, it was so long ago, but it was before they went down their dark path. But after years of not reading them, I checked out an audiobook sometime in the mid-2000s, and for some reason I was compelled to skip to the last disc (I never skip to the end of a book, ever) and realized what had become of Jacen. Even though I hadn't read any of the series in years, it was almost heartbreaking. I couldn't continue with it after that. But yeah, I agree, that storyline would have been so much better.

No, I was referring to Grand Admiral Thrawn. Personally I wish they'd never created Kylo Ren. I'd have preferred Jacen and Jaina.

I agree completely. It's one of the things I dislike about the Star Wars universe, the Jedi portion of it. The whole concept that if you have any kind of emotion, it's detrimental. I'm also not so particularly fond of how Luke was so forgiving, but that's a complaint for another time. I hope we see more of Groku (Baby Yoda!) using his Force powers and not just as way to steal cookies from someone else, LOL.

She was a very important part of The Clone Wars animated series (I guess she would have been considered one of the co-leads?), Anakin's Padawan before he succumbed to the dark side and became Darth Vader. That's who she was referring to. The loss of Anakin was pretty devastating to her. She was also in a few episodes of Star Wars Rebels. I was excited to see her, I always loved her character.

He is also the only (that I am aware of) Star Wars character that was not part of the original canon, coming from the Timothy Zahn novels from the 1990's (the Expanded Universe as the pre-Disney era novelizations are referred to).

I'm really so over Jacob Kane at this point, though of course I know that by season 3 (at least by then), he'll do a complete turnaround and be Batwoman's biggest fan (sorry Arrowverse, you are way too predictable, and the initial "vigilante hate" has become such a cliche), especially when he learns she's his daughter. How do you redeem someone who has done such despicable things? For me, she loses any and all sympathy when she murders innocent people that had absolutely nothing to do with that horridly wretched childhood she had. I hate that she blames Kate for not having that magical twin intuition that should have made her realize that she was on the other side of that damn door, and now she wants to kill her. Please. Believe me, I feel for the innocent, lost child that she was, but personally, I wish Alice had died in that one episode and Beth had stuck around. I imagine if Rachel Skarsten is as great of an actress as people say (I have no experience with her prior to this show), she would have done wonders for that character. But Alice? Redemption? I just don't see it. So how old is Bruce Wayne supposed to be? Guy looked like he was in his mid-30s. Wouldn't Commissioner Gordon still be around, leading the GCPD? Did he retire? Is he dead?

Add me as another who is calling it quits. I rolled my eyes when Lea kissed Shaun and said she loved him. I thought "Yep, someone here called it." It's not the only reason for me to quit, but there's nothing compelling me to keep watching. They are just going to keep treating Shaun as someone they treat with kid gloves who never learns a damn thing. Part of me is not really that sad about Melendez's death. I know, terrible of me, but all I could think of is "thank goodness, the shipping can stop..." because you know the only way they could go now is ghost sex (*paging Denny Duquette...*).

I know my opinion here will probably be very unpopular, but Shaun is probably my least favorite person on this show. He has no business being a surgeon, especially not one in constant contact with patients, because he has no coping strategies. Not until he can learn to deal with patients and deal with other people. Glassman raised him, right? It seems like Shaun never went through any kind of therapy, and you'd think that a neurosurgeon would have known to do that, to help Shaun learn coping skills, because life is hard enough as it is. I have an almost 13-year old with high functioning autism who I put through several years of therapy (speech, occupational, etc) so that he would be able to deal with life and not have a breakdown and meltdown over the tiniest thing (because I knew he'd be miserable if I didn't). And Shaun has been babied so much by everyone (except by Daniel Dae Kim's character) so I'm really glad that Dr. Melendez called him out on his behavior this time. It certainly has not been the first time that Shaun has spoken inappropriately towards patients or co-workers, but they let it slide every single time. Until now. I really want to like Shaun, but for me, they are making it difficult. I really hope that he starts to consider therapy and damnit, no love life BS until he does.

I don't hate Izzie.* For the longest time I kept hoping Heigl would return and we'd have Izzie back. I just accepted the fact that it (much like with Sandra Oh) it was NEVER going to happen. And I wasn't even a major Jolex fan either, but I did get used to it and wasn't bothered by it anymore, and the fact that the two of them had similar backgrounds (abandonment, etc), and he married her twice, and all the other things already previously mentioned by others, it just did not make sense for him to run back to Izzie. To his kids, sure. Izzie? No. *(though I thought she was quite the jerk for leaving him and dumping her medical bills on him.... like "hey, thanks for jizzing in a cup for me, btw, here you go, medical debt, enjoy!).

I don't enjoy flashback episodes too much, and I admit I groaned when I saw this was going to be one of those, but Mxyzptlk was enjoyable and though I will not put this down as being a favorite episode, it became likeable enough. It was nice to see the return of Sam/Reign (could have done with Ben Lockwood). Kara/Lena, I'm glad Kara finally stood up for herself, because I was growing tired of "guilt-ridden" Kara/Supergirl and sick to death of "wah wah, you lied to me" poor little Lena. They make villains so uninteresting on these shows because it's almost always some BS reasons why they become villains in the first place. I've always waited for the other shoe to drop with Lena... like this underlying part of her that was as evil as her brother. Maybe it's the Luthor in her (maybe it's me remembering the actress on Merlin), I don't know, but I'm just surprised it took this long to surface. I'm not saying I want evil Lena (I don't), just saying that her going in villain mode (despite her protests about not being one, she sure has done some despicable stuff this season) didn't surprise me, she just needed an excuse (and a lame one was good enough) to do it. I hope Lena turns "good," again, but I think Kara is going to have to always watch her back with her now.

It's that giddiness all the interns go through on Grey's (even back when Meredith and Christine were still interns) where they would get so excited to hear about impending doom, and they'd fight over who got to treat the worst of it (the interns STILL do this) and Ben is and was just as bad. He jumps in head first (career changes and all) without really thinking ahead. It's infuriating trait to go right along with his ever-evolving career change.

I thought the same about JJ. Didn't like her from the moment she showed back up and I knew she was a total, selfish flake. Her personality just screamed "me, me, me!" I hope they do have a falling out. So not interested in Jackson and Vic. It all just happened way too fast with them and for me, that's disturbing.

That and blaming Callie for her amputation. I don't think she ever forgave Callie for that, as if her wife was to choose between her life and her leg and damn her, she chose her life. I despised Arizona after that.

No, I completely understood why they killed Derek off, and why they had to. He had a wife he loved, he had kids he adored. For him to have walked away from either of them, would have just been... well, we'd have been where we are with Alex now. It would have ruined the person that we knew Derek to be. But what I didn't like was the way they killed him, at some strange hospital with shit doctors who were too lazy to do their jobs right (you can believe I was cheering when Meredith gave that doctor hell during her hearing). Derek deserved to die at Grey-Sloan, surrounded by the people who loved him. Not the BS that Shonda fed us. Alex was the only thing that kept me watching after that. I completely agree. Really, bringing those kids in was just a way for Krista to soften the blow for anyone who might not be happy with this write-off. Meh, didn't work for me. Cute kids, sure, but irrelevent. I totally shipped Alex and Izzie back in the day, but once she did that to him, I was done and way too much time has passed for it to be remotely believable.

Ton of replies I still need to go through, but gosh... can we cuss here? I mean really, I want to let out a string of 4-letter words here, but I'll shorten it to this: WTF??? This is what they decide to do with the character who has been my favorite because he is the only one (to me) that has shown true character growth. He went from being someone who was a total jerk (to put it nicely--and boy did I cringe at those flashback scenes) to someone who was mature and caring and a leader. I have flip-flopped in my feelings about Jo over the years. At first, I completely shipped them as a couple, but as an intern, and paired up with Stephanie, she got to be so incredibly annoying (not to mention the drama she consistently started with Karev--and let's not even bring up that Deluca incident) and I just had no interest in the 2 of them ever being together again. But eventually, she didn't bother me so much anymore (sorry, but separating her and Stephanie was the best thing--because really, I liked Stephanie better when she wasn't around Jo), and she and Alex kind of grew on me a little bit again. Or at least I stopped being bothered by them being together. See, this Alex would not have left his wife. Wouldn't have even entertained the thought of it. Izzie was a memory to him, nothing more. Sure, I shipped him way back when, but she did him wrong and all of a sudden, I'm supposed to believe that she was his true love. But because I think they knew many of us would call BS on that, they threw in a couple of kids, because you know... awwww. Please. Meh. I had to struggle to watch the rest of the episode after the first ten minutes. I know I'll be struggling to finish out the season (which at this point, I'm not even sure I want to do anymore--so far every episode since the post mid-winter break has been crap). As a side note, the whole narrative was lame. I'm not sure if that was JC or not (I did think it sounded like him, but why not actually just come in and film his goodbye on camera? Heck, could have had him comatose or lying on a morgue slab, or as a confused John Doe because his mother had bashed his head in..., and I'd have been fine with it--albeit with lots of tears of course). You'd think by now I'd learn my lesson and learn to expect Grey's to screw us over when it really matters.