Maysie
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Posts posted by Maysie
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It was actually interesting to see Keith's response to the Dalai Lama and Kristen Keeffe. As deluded as he is, Keith knew it was a big deal to meet with the Dalai Lama, although his delusion still compelled him to kick off the meeting discussing his persecution. During the Kristen Keeffe segment, my husband and I were looking at each other like "what the fuck is he even saying????" and then when she basically told him he needed to shut it down, it seemed like he couldn't believe that someone - a woman, no less - was not buying his bullshit. So, even though she put me off in her documentary talking head, getting all thrilled over their scorched earth policy, I kind of liked Kristen for just telling Keith to shut it.
I am not exactly sure exactly what NXIVM could do to people who leave the organization. I understand that there may have been some sort of legal action against Sarah for shutting down one of the business's profit centers, but really, otherwise, if you leave, you leave. Maybe there's some slander that's a possibility? But unless there are signed contracts or something, what can NXIVM do, legally? I understand that's vastly different from harassment, but I don't get Mark's legal fears.
I am tired of them presenting themselves as heroes. I feel bad that they had issues that resulted in giving so much control in their personal lives to a fraud, however, they not only (apparently) made a handsome living in the organization, but they brought other people into what is an obvious pyramid scheme. So when they all talked about the sacrifice of going on the record I was thinking "oh hell yes, you go on the record!" It is the least they can do to start to rectify the situation for the people they brought into this house of cards.
And I don't know why, but Sarah and Mark especially bug me. I just don't find them really sincere, or something - I can't put my finger on it, but they both seem off to me.
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1 hour ago, MicheleinPhilly said:
Oh we're 100% in agreement on that. I was thinking of the Janes and Bonnies (I have a bit less sympathy for Sarah because something about her just rubs me the wrong way), not the "higher-ups" that actively recruited people and then made them their "slaves." They can all go to jail as far as I'm concerned.
As an old friend would say, I think we're in "violent agreement." I would actually like to understand a bit more about Allison's journey in all of this, because the more I think about it, and then read additional thoughts and takes on it, such as the post below, I end up with more questions.
7 hours ago, kitmerlot1213 said:Man, but after seeing the first meeting between Allison Mack and Raniere. I'm stunned at how easily he manipulated her with his word salad, "art is bogus and self-condemning" --he knew he had her hooked when she started crying and agreeing with him. I felt embarrassed for her and I'm actually saddened at how needy she was and in 2006 she would have been about 23 or 24 years old--never let it be said that KR isn't an expert conman.
What I've learned with Sarah, Mark, Bonnie, Jane and India is that they all had some voids in their lives that NXIVM filled - it gave them confidence, purpose and family, and in the case of at least Sarah, a damn good livelihood. But they didn't cross that line into straight up abuse and Allison made that leap. So what was it about her (and Lauren and whoever else) that Keith saw and developed to turn her from a vulnerable young woman into essentially a predator/pimp? What didn't the others have - especially Sarah - that he was less confident in them? Was there an age limit? A physical type? I kind of feel like Bonnie wouldn't have stuck around for any of that, and it seems like he left men out of the scheme (though I guess we'll find out as we go on). I wonder if women recruiting other women somehow made it seem less icky and that they could label it "female empowerment" because it was women recruiting other women? So many questions!
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4 hours ago, MicheleinPhilly said:
I'm working on being less judgmental of these folks because I recognize that most if not all of them were terribly lonely and feeling lost but I fail to see an ounce of charisma in Keith. That and the corporate B.S./Chicken Soup for the Soul level "philosophizing" makes it very difficult for me to fathom how this group existed as long as it did. As others have pointed out, it's a B-level (more like D-level) rip-off of Scientology. At least with Scientology they have a "goal" or "purpose" - clearing the planet (*insert eye roll emoji). What is this group's purpose?
I'm trying to save most of my disdain for Keith and Nancy because you're right - so many of these people are victims. I have no way to know what they experienced in their lives until they found NXIVM; I can only imagine what it's like to feel so lost or empty that when presented with some pretty basic common sense ideas, you believe that what you're hearing is groundbreaking.
However...there is a line and some of the people who got caught up in the organization crossed that line (such as Allison and Lauren). It's creepy and a little pathetic to see the video of Allison's first meeting with Keith, but she went way beyond staying engaged and active like someone who was sucked into the organization (the Janes, Sarahs, etc). She actively solicited other vulnerable young women to be slaves and actually branded them. That crosses a line for me because it goes against the premise of right and wrong, and most functioning people have a basic understanding of the difference. And don't even get me started on how these groups actually profess to empower the people they're actively subjugating.
There are so many contradictions in this whole mess and I wonder if Keith, Nancy and the other players were actively aware of them and had their playbook for how to overcome them. It makes me question whether that was part of the game/allure for him - to be so blatant in these conflicting things (e.g., empowering women to enslave them) but have so much power that people were willing to deny what was really right in front of them.
In the next episodes, I hope we see less about these front and center personalities that we've been seeing so far (Mark, Bonnie, Sarah, Nippy and India) and start to learn more about the organization. Yes, they are victims, and the stories need telling, but I am more interested in finding out how Keith came to be, where Nancy fits in, how the organization was structured and funded, etc. After a while the stories begin to sound the same. I want to know who Keith and Nancy are and what their motivation is? And how does Nancy live with involving her own daughter so deeply in this mess?
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We watched episode four last night. Although we're invested and will see the series through, we thought this episode kind of dragged. But there were a few takeaways:
I rolled my eyes when Bonnie told Catherine of course they want India, because India's beautiful, talented, successful, etc. Yeah, I think they want people who are "successful" so they can mine their funds, but I don't think they want people who are successful in terms of self esteem and confidence. Seems to me they find people who are unsure/unhappy/lacking confidence so they can suck them in (which sounded like India). However, I give Bonnie a bit of a pass on this because I imagine the success criteria makes her feel okay about getting caught up in something that's such an obvious scheme. I think the fact that she had some success on her own and some sense of worth is what actually led her to be able to make the break as cleanly as she did.
Related to all of the "successful" people this group has recruited, maybe it's my age showing (many of these famous people are unfamiliar to me), but it seems to me that at best, these high level famous people are kind of B-list stars. It's bitchy, I know, but it makes it seem even more like a low grade Scientology thing to me.
Why all the focus on India? Is it because she's peripherally famous? Did it make for an easy reenactment? I know she's basically wasting away and in physical and emotional distress, but spending so much time on her and Catherine became a bit boring. At one point my husband said "she doesn't seem all that upset about her daughter, does she?" I had to agree - Catherine didn't seem very emotional or engaged for most of the show.
10 hours ago, Cheezwiz said:I don't like Sarah. I have no clue why she's so eager to show off her brand - just bizarre. I think she's furiously backpedaling with this documentary hoping to rehabilitate her image or something. I feel kinda bad for Nippy, as he seems fairly straightforward and honest. I don't think she is.
The more I see of Sarah the less I like her. I tried to be charitable and write off her need to show off the brand as some sort of PTSD, but showing the brand to the mother of someone who is likely going to get her own brand seemed grossly insensitive and selfish to me. I moved over to active dislike of Sarah when she decided to make the "sacrifice" of letting Frank have her name as a source. That's when the rubber meets the road, in my opinion; if you're really committed to making it right - trying to help the people you sucked into a bullshit, predatory cult (probably at least hundreds over the years) - it seems to me that putting your name out there to help that along is the least you can do. Fuck you Sarah. I would be interested to see if she and Nippy are still together in five years.
And fuck Mark, too, while I'm at it. He seemed offended when Catherine told him about contacting Frank - almost like there was someone else encroaching on his territory. I understand Frank is a bit sketchy from my googling (tax evasion, I guess), but it sounded like he was taking on the organization before Mark and Sarah got out. Unless he's doing something really awful, why wouldn't you try to work together? Honestly, Mark and Sarah seem like a better match to me, because they seem much more self-serving than Bonnie and Nippy.
Jane Jane Jane . . . I was astonished at how easily and willingly she went along with the master/slave/collateral thing. I wonder how old she is and what her background is. Critical thinking is not her strong point.
I've felt since the second or third episode that Allison Mack comes across as quite disingenuous, and I doubt her sincerity when she's engaging with anyone (a term in my favorite book comes to mind with her: "made for television"). Come to think of it, I doubt Mark and Sarah's sincerity as well; I wonder if this is part of moving up in the organization - being able to bullshit your way through just about anything.
I guess all the word salad really paid off for Keith et al in that they were able to do something that on the face of it is ridiculous: they took a group that is supposed to be about female empowerment and literally enslaved its participants (for life!). Never underestimate the power of doublespeak when you're dealing with people who aren't all that bright.
I hope in the future we'll get some episodes devoted to the finances and actual organizational structure, as well as how this whole setup evolved - was it always meant to be the pyramid scheme it seems to be? Was Keith always on the prowl for young women to bed? What is his deal anyway - what exactly are his qualifications and accomplishments and how was he able to convince people that he's the highest IQ individual, blah blah blah? That's the documentary I want to see. I don't want to see Sarah and Mark on a crusade to salvage their reputations and turn all this into yet another profitable career for them.
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Bonnie is the only one I'm not still giving some sort of side eye. That may change as the documentary progresses, but I have more respect for her at this point than any of the other people I'm seeing. Apparently she was somehow able to maintain some sort of sense of self and listen to her gut and act accordingly. She was also willing to leave her marriage because she felt so strongly about it and from what I can tell of what we're watching, she didn't have the benefit of all the information that Mark and Sarah ended up with before they made their moves.
When Mark was vacillating and trying to get his own proof, I had to work to extend him some grace on it. We've heard how much he LOOOOOVES Bonnie and when she came to him with her information, he didn't appear to be as disturbed as I would have expected. I understand that's part of the cultish brainwashing aspect of all of it, but still, it would have broken my heart if I had been in her place. And I don't know how much harder I would have worked to change his mind, either.
18 minutes ago, EdnasEdibles said:I absolutely think that was the case with Sarah. She was not really a successful actress. The clip of that vampire show is cringey. This allowed her to make money and perform and be on stage and be famous in a small circle. There's even that scene of Keith directing her and being like "No, you need to be bigger and say 'GOOD MORNING!'" and it was probably like getting notes from a director. I think she loved that aspect of it.
In the podcast she talked about how she'd convince people to join and be like "It's only $2,000!" and if they were like "But I don't have that" she'd then come back with "But if you needed surgery and that surgery was $2,000, wouldn't you be able to find that money? Talk to the friends who you think would help you with that. Sell your car. Do what you have to do because you're creating your future!" -- really icky stuff like that and she didn't see any problem with that. So, knowing stuff like that is keeping me from feeling really sorry for her. I know that people change and they learn more but Bonnie is kind of my hero in this. It took Bonnie very little time to be like "The hell? This is messed up!" and I applaud her for that.
I think the above is a great point about Sarah - she was an aspiring actress, and if that clip was any indication, not a very good one. I guess her acting skills were more suited to great salesmanship, and there's nothing inherently wrong with that if you're not selling something that's not unethical/illegal/immoral.
Something about Sarah bugs me, and I can't quite put my finger on it. I don't know if we were supposed to see her as this rockstar for going through with the branding without flinching but I was really disappointed in her. I would have thought she was amazing if she went walked out of the ceremony, or better still, spoke up about how messed up it was. I may have the timeline wrong, but didn't she have some information about what was going on at that point? She'd already made up the abuse lie for collateral by then (I think???); it just boggles my mind that you watch other women cry and freak out for an (ugly) brand that literally marks them as a slave and then you "show them" by accepting the brand silently? Something is off about her, for me.
I wonder how much money they were making in this pyramid scheme. Based on Sarah's range rover and what looked to be a pretty nice apartment in Vancouver, it seemed like they were fairly prosperous. Of course, in those setups, everyone you bring in is paying your salary. I'd like to know if she and Mark really "took care" of the people they recruited (I would think that would be a fair amount of people between the two of them over 10+ years), and if so, what the organization did to try to stop them.
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I think there are a couple of ways people get sucked in to the level that Sarah and Mark did. First, there's that vulnerability/lack of esteem many have, and when they go to the first set of meetings, they hear stuff that is empowering to them, so they jump in with both feet. Consider that they get right down to the root of some very basic things - what do you fear? why do you fear it? let's get you over that fear! I googled Nancy and she seems to have some sort of background (psychiatric nurse and trained hypnotist) that gives her at least enough skill to be effective on some basic level - such as curing Mark's freeway phobia.
Then there's the reality that some people just have a gift for presenting bullshit in such a way that it's pearls of wisdom on a golden platter, which I think is how they clinch the deal. I've known a number of people who have a way of speaking that makes you just buy what they're saying - it may be the tone of their voice, their speaking manner, their vocabulary. It's a presence, or charisma, I guess. One person in particular I remember sounding so authoritative and convincing that I was going along with whatever she was spouting off about until I started to actually parse what she was saying and I realized she had no fucking clue what she was talking about. Now I don't find Keith all that engaging or engrossing, but if the people around him who are talk him up enough and start in on "the world's highest IQ" bs, I can see where people focus on the medium more than they do the actual message - it's like the medium becomes the message.
I have so many questions that the answers to would help me make sense of how some seemingly intelligent people end up involved to the extent that they literally submit to master/slave relationships. For example, what is the retention rate after the first group seminar? How many of the people that stick it out continue on? When do they start talking beyond vague common sense ideas and start introducing the miracle of Keith and his highest IQ ever? (I bet it's not during the first session). I kind of see the whole thing as kind of the boiled frog syndrome - you slowly turn up the water in increments and before you know it, there's a dead frog in the pot.
I'm struggling with respecting some of these people. On one hand I feel bad for them because whatever pushed them to get in so deep with what is obviously (to me) a pyramid scheme must be tough. However, when someone invites you to a master/slave relationship and then starts talking about the need for "collateral" (i.e. extortion material), that's not a figurative concept, as Sarah seemed to think she was getting into. The fact that she would even enter in to such an agreement that she would allow herself to be referred to as "slave" by her "best friend" tells me that the organization didn't want to empower its adherents too much.
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I listened to a podcast about this group a while ago and forgot about it until the documentary showed up on HBO. I really give the side eye to people who claim that in one session of therapy their fear is cured (I'm thinking of Mark's anxiety on the freeway), so I'm left with the thought that these types of organizations - cults - are super effective at finding people who are ripe for this kind of thinking and indoctrination. If Mark really had only one session with Nancy Salzman and was able to conquer his freeway anxiety, that makes me think that he was vulnerable to this kind of intervention and probably would have been seduced by other groups/people eventually.
Those sashes look so cheesy and cheap, but it was telling how coveted they were to the organization's members.
I don't recall from the podcast, but I'm betting that the organization made a lot of money by charging big bucks for people to work their way up and earn new sashes, etc. I'm curious about the finances and look forward to learning more about them; it screams pyramid scheme.
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I think they should end it right there. There's not much to come back to. In reality, leaving the base, taking the helicopter to rescue his (annoying) daughter and picking up his escaped wife and her guard would be career ending for him. I'm not interested in a second season of him bumbling around the moon while he tries to salvage his career.
I think this show would have been better without the daughter and even the wife. If they felt that he needed a family, then it would have been better if they were divorced with some plot device to keep them in his sphere (maybe they stay in DC and he goes there semi-regularly to visit as well as check in at the pentagon; this worked fine for the joint chiefs - any more of them would have been overkill, but it was a fun diversion). I would have preferred that the focus stay on space force and the various hijinks around getting that off the ground (see what I did there?)
Besides the joint chiefs of staff, I was oddly interested in Dr. Chan and Space Woman (I cannot remember her name) - for some reason that relationship worked for me. I also (as expected) liked Malkovich; he was what kept me watching. It's not that I dislike Carell, but something about him was off for me.
I was hoping this would be like Avenue 5 - we were pretty ambivalent about it when it started, but we grew to like it. I can get into unbelievable and goofy stuff, but I also appreciate continuity and not wasting time on plot points that have no real purpose.
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Well, I see I'm not alone in some of my thoughts about this show.
I love John Malkovich and I like Steve Carell, so we decided to watch the whole thing (still have one episode to go), despite what I thought was a really weak start. I think the show's strength is mostly its cast - the Joint Chiefs of Staff are great (and I thought it was pretty funny that they exclude the Coast Guard) and those bits are usually pretty funny. Otherwise, it's kind of a funny line here or there, but generally, it's missing something. It feels like this thing is all over the map, and like others have already said, it's Michael Scott in the Space Force. One minute I get the sense he's actually capable and has some idea of what he's doing and the next he's just an idiot. Plus, that voice...no.
I don't understand the plot choices with the Naird family, including putting Mrs. Naird in prison for the rest of their lives with no explanation why. I also have a hard time believing that if his spouse ended up in prison with a 40-60 year sentence that he'd still be selected to head up the Space Force (I'm sure there's security clearances, etc. that he'd need for such a job and that kind of incident could impact that).
I sense that the writers sat around and came up with bits - like let's have an Elizabeth Holmes type of character visit, or let's do something with monkeys and dogs, or let's have two characters dance to K Pop, Lisa Kudrow needs to wear cornrows once - and then tried to build a plot around them. It's chaotic and it seems the only character I really have any kind of a feel for is Malkovich's. Otherwise, I don't know if the Naird family members are smart and capable who have occasional mishaps or if they're a collection of bumbling idiots who have bungled their way to prison/command/an ice cream stand. Lady astronaut went from dreaming about being an astronaut and studying botany with Dr. Chan to landing on the moon in weeks??? The Russian "spy" went where?
I know it's a sitcom and there needs to be some suspension of disbelief, but this is just a collection of gags, which are mostly not really funny, imo.
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On 6/15/2020 at 4:31 PM, scrb said:
That's the pretty major thing to drop.
They did all the setup with both of them making claims about the pregnancy and they didn't follow it through?
It didn't bother me that they didn't follow the end of the book to the letter, explicitly spelling out what happens with Dessa and Dominic. For me, the real story was the relationship between Thomas and Dominic and how Thomas's illness, their upbringing and the disturbing family history impacted them. The final shot of Dominic getting on with his life, in some manner, with Dessa works just fine for me. Dessa and Angela were just part of his journey (and a failed marriage and dead child - oof. That's a lot for anyone and considering that's just one part of Dominic's story is pretty remarkable.)
Generally, I give the side eye to books I enjoy being brought to the screen, but this was very well done, which makes me happy because Wally Lamb is one of my favorite authors.
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Purely my take on all this, but I see Thomas and Dominic as both mentally ill. Thomas's illness has manifested in this paranoia/bi-polar stuff that leaves him in such a state that he is a danger to himself (though I don't sense he'd ever purposely hurt another) and is better off institutionalized because caring for him would literally be a full time job. I don't know a lot about mental illness, so I'm spitballing here, but Thomas's situation seems to be the type of illness you're kind of "born with" - you know, brain chemistry, etc, and it feels like living with an aggressive, judgmental asshole like Ray exacerbated his illness.
Dominic, on the other hand, doesn't seem to have the paranoia issues that Thomas has, but he grew up walking on eggshells around his abusive step-father and at a young age, took on a lot of responsibility for his clearly unwell brother. I don't know what the DSM would say about acquired/learned rage issues in regards to mental illness, but Dominic never learned about how to manage anger, grief, disappointment. It was either duck and cover or fight back - he doesn't understand nuance when things get bad. So when Dr. Patel told Dominic that she sees two boys in the woods and only one stands a chance of making it out, she sees potential that Dominic can work on his issues and become mentally and emotionally healthy;Thomas is a lost cause. I think that the twins are the same in that neither of them would intentionally hurt anyone else; Thomas self-harms and Dominic is verbally abusive and takes his rage out on objects, ultimately to his own detriment.
If Dominic can overcome the damage of his prior life - the abusive upbringing, taking responsibility for his ill brother, the death of his daughter and the fallout from that - I think he'll actually turn out to be a decent person. The way he handled Ralph Drinkwater's revelation that Thomas had been abused in the facility surprised me, but it also impressed me a little. He was single minded in getting his brother out of there, so I can't disagree with him taking Thomas on (I mean, if it was my family member, you bet your ass he'd be coming home with me rather than leave him in there one moment longer than necessary). Consider that he walked out of the attorney's office when the lawyer started talking about a class action lawsuit - Dominic would have no financial problems in that scenario, and it would have been an easy win. I think a lot of people would have gone down that road. I figure Dominic knows that living with Thomas indefinitely isn't feasible, but all he knew was his brother was being abused and he needed to fix it; I understand that.
I hope that when the dust settles, that Dominic informs Rosie O'Donnell of why he did what he did. He's in a tough situation; Ralph Drinkwater did him a favor and he owes Ralph for that, including protecting his identity as a whistleblower. But there is he fact that other patients are going to be vulnerable to the same situation.
Finally, Domenico - yikes. As ugly as Thomas and Dominic's stories have been, Domenico's was even darker. I don't think I'd have gotten very far in that story if it had been my ancestor, but Dr. Patel was right - Dominic is learning a lot about himself and his family via that story.
Every week I'm impressed by this show. I have to put myself in the right mindset to watch it, and we have something much lighter queued up to watch afterwords as a palate cleanser, but it's really been excellent on just about every level.
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On 5/22/2020 at 8:27 PM, GreekGeek said:
@Liamsmom617 and @DangerousMinds, go back and read the Sicilian grandfather's memoirs. I found them a terrific novel-within-a-novel that tells a powerful story of immigrants around the turn of the century. You may rage at Domenico Tempesta's old-world sexism, as Nedra Frank did, but you won't be bored. Nedra's footnotes are a great touch--she kindly explained to the reader what "Fungool!" means.
Boy, old Domenico was a piece of work. Someone noted in the episode thread that his "book" could have been more concise but I would argue that having it not be concise was part of the point. Domenico had a high opinion of himself, so more of his words would be a great thing to him. I think Domenico's book did a great job of fleshing out Concettina's character.
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Dominic - or Domenico as the social worker likes to call him - can be tough to like. Even though I've read the book, I've forgotten so much of it, but I do recall thinking "yikes Dominic!" a few times when I read it. It's the same now, but I also think it's a byproduct of who he is, how he was raised and living with a mentally ill twin. It's becoming clear that he has always born so much responsibility for Thomas - since the beginning, really. So there's that mix of resentment, love and obligation that's doing battle in there. And then you add in the abusive step-father and the dead daughter. That's just a lot.
When Dominic climbed the ladder to remove the shutters, I knew something bad was going to happen with the homeowner, but I couldn't remember exactly what. And then the guy came to the window and ugh, I remembered. I can't imagine witnessing something like that literally face to face. I have a friend who did the same and to even think about what she did is disturbing enough; to have to witness it (or even the aftermath) would be the stuff of nightmares and PTSD.
Rosie O'Donnell is, surprisingly, really working for me. I love the vibe between her character and Dominic. Honestly, I think the whole cast is superb. The story is a tough watch - we have to make sure we're in the right mindset before we watch it (and it's really hard these days). But I'm glad we're doing it because I think HBO has done a great job adapting this book.
17 hours ago, Woopwoopkitty said:As much as I loved the book, I found the manuscript to be the most difficult part of the book as in my opinion it was twice as long as it needed to be to make the point it was conveying. It’s a lot of history and some mystery/superstition of his life in the old country and his and Concettina’s emigration to America.
Commenting on this in the book thread....
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On 5/11/2020 at 9:44 AM, tennisgurl said:
While the title of the show is presumably Elena ruminating on Lila and the combination of glowing admiration she has for her as well as her inferiority complex that she will never be as good as Lila and resenting her for that, I think it works for both of them about each other. They both see the other one as the one that they can never beat, but also the only one who could understand them.
It only occurred to me during this season that the "my brilliant friend" could be either one speaking about the other. I assumed it was all about Lenu telling Lila's story, given the narration, but whatever the complexities and competition in their relationship, they each see the other as brilliant/gifted and I think it had a life-changing impact for both of them. And in telling Lila's story, Lenu is telling her own story. I believe Lenu wouldn't be nearly as driven without Lila's presence in her life, but I'm starting to believe Lenu's presence is as impactful in Lila's life.
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I read this book years ago and forgot so much, but it all started coming back to me, seeing Ray's dickishness. I remember the broad plot points and how it basically ends, but since the finer details are fuzzy, it will be almost like watching it from scratch.
I thought it was a tough watch, mainly because it's pretty dark, especially right about now. However, the acting is strong and I like the original story, so even though it's not exactly feel good tv right now, I'm in.
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On 5/4/2020 at 7:37 PM, ProudMary said:
Not Michele; Marcello, whom Lila had repeatedly and even violently rejected multiple times. Had those shoes been on the feet of anyone but Marcello Solara, Lila and Stefano's marriage might have had a chance, but he really did betray her right from the start.
Thanks for that - I always get Marcello and Michele confused - as to which is which. I think both of them and Stefano look a bit like frogs; sometimes they all look super unattractive and other times they are oddly appealing. They definitely have an interesting look to them.
14 hours ago, VagueDisclaimer said:Ada is willing to conform to Stefano, value what he values, be the woman he specifically wants. Men like Stefano look at women like Lila as something to break, something to win. I’ll agree that he took Ada because she’s easier, but I don’t believe his love was so genuine or vulnerable for Lila. He wanted, he needed, he demanded, he took, he stole, he broke. None of that was love, even if he called it that as he raped Lila during that storm. Not all of the men we’ve seen force themselves on women or beat them into submission. We are shown that marked contrast in Enzo, who clearly wants something more with Lila, but doesn’t force himself on her.
I think that is what's going on with Stefano and both of the Solara brothers - it's more about "owning/having" Lila than actually knowing or trying to understand who she is.
I find it challenging to watch shows that aren't set in our more enlightened times simply because I do have a tendency to inflict my sensibilities onto what I'm seeing on the screen. Tolerating violence because that's just the way it was, or because it's the culture, or because it could be worse, or because someone is mouthy doesn't work for me. So I watch this and I understand that was perhaps the norm for the time and place, and therefore that it's an important part of this story, but I never think "poor Stefano, if only his stubborn wife would do what he wants he wouldn't have to beat her."
I think there's a very specific reason this story is set in the time period it is and why we're seeing the thread of the social issues of the time running through the series (the workers rights demonstrations, discussions about communism and fascism, etc) as well as how the landscape is literally changing (all the building going on in post WWII Naples). Lila and Lenu are coming of age in a really critical time in history; civil rights movements were starting to take off and we get to see how they overcome (or not) what they were born into.
I get that what was acceptable then isn't so acceptable now, and what is acceptable now may not be fifty years from now. Change doesn't come, however, if the Lilas of the world simply submit to the Stefanos.
Finally, the only saving grace about Nino is that as far as we know, he's not physically abusive. But I really dislike him too. I'm not clear that he really loved Lila, but I'm really skeptical about his feelings for Lenu.
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On 4/30/2020 at 1:07 PM, HoneyBeach said:
In my opinion, he did everything he could to make Lila happy. This was a different era. Women didn't have a lot of choices and from the choices available, Lila picked the best one.
I know it was a different time, and men were men and women were basically servants and all that, but no, he didn't do everything he could to make Lila happy. Think back to the end of the first season, Lila seemed to really love Stefano - she actually chose him - and then he betrayed her by getting into business with the Solaras and then that was that. I know that given the time and circumstances that he wouldn't have discussed such a thing with his wife, but still, she was blindsided at her wedding with Michelle showing up in the shoes that she gave to Stefano. In her eyes he sold her out before they were even married.
On 5/1/2020 at 2:31 PM, tennisgurl said:Lila doesn't have to suffer so much in her married life, at least not as much as she does. Stefano, while often cruel and violent, hates and worships Lila about equal amount, and does love her in his own dysfunctional, possessive way, and if she wanted, he would probably do anything she asked him to do if she gave him even a few crumbs of affection. Its not ideal and it sucks terribly that she is stuck in this crappy relationship that she seemingly cant really leave, and its not her fault that her husband is abusive, but for this time and place, it could be easier. But Lila just hates and disdains him so much (although really, Lila disdains most people) and has so much pride, she cant even pretend.
I'm sure that's true, but it also sounds a bit like being held captive in your own home. When you're giving your body over to anyone to avoid being beaten, that's not really giving your body - I consider that rape. And if Lila were to end up submitting to Stefano - basically lose the essence of who she is - I bet he wouldn't want her anymore.
Lila is a real interesting character. She's one of those rare people that have something that either draws or repels people. She's beautiful and intelligent, unafraid to say or do as she pleases - she's an other and everyone knows it. I think men are drawn to her because if they can "own" her, it says something about their power and their masculinity and other women seem to feel inadequate compared to her. In a way, that's had a positive effect on Lenu because it's (imo) a lot of what has motivated Lenu to keep studying and leave the neighborhood (because otherwise, Lenu would have been content to be married to Nino, or the closest thing to him).
Finally, it's a bit troubling that Stefano gets a bit of a pass because he's behaving like other guys do and Lila should be used to it since it's what she grew up with. Lila knows it's fucked up that it's always the women being beat on and the men administering the beatings. And she knows its fucked up that withholding education is another way to keep women in their place. I believe that's why she's so distant with most men and it's why she fell for Nino - she understood that he represented a possibility of a different life and a different kind of relationship.
Now that she has a son of her own, she has a choice to make - is she going to let that "tradition" continue or what is she going to do to break that chain. Stefano was thisclose to throwing Rino's small child down a flight of steps. She needs to get out of that house.
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The book was fine - it's not going to be one of those that sticks with me, but I didn't feel pissed off that I wasted time with it. Maybe I shouldn't have read it while watching the series, but I can't quite figure out why all the changes. The book and the show varied significantly in the portrayal of the three main female characters.
My take on the book was that Mia was set up as this flawed, yet generous, wonderful bohemian artist. Book Mia is asexual; show Mia has sex in the car while baby Pearl sleeps and was her professor's partner. In the end, book Mia generously left a very personal picture for each Richardson, something meaningful or insightful; show Mia basically foraged through the house and took their personal belongings (and for what purpose - we never know, other than Izzy's feather). Book Elena was happy on her very deliberate path that she set for herself while show Elena had angst over the road unchosen; book Elena had a pretty frightening experience with her final pregnancy while show Elena simply didn't want the last baby. Book Bebe was legal, had a pretty good job in San Francisco that she left for her boyfriend, which is where things went bad for her; show Bebe was poor and undocumented and apparently only suited to wait tables in Chinese restaurants.
So why make things more complicated? Even though the book wasn't great literature, the story as it was was compelling enough. Izzy did not have to be struggling with her sexual identity and Elena didn't have to be suffering a midlife crisis to add to this drama - their relationship was fraught enough as it was. Why did Bebe have to be a constantly struggling illegal? Wasn't postpartum enough? I was okay with them adding a bit of an edge to Mia - otherwise she was a little too awesome - but they went too far with her, imo.
I've seen that there's been discussion about what we're "supposed" to feel/think, whose side we're "supposed" to be on in all of this, but in the end, it was all so mixed up that I ended up not being on anyone's side, other than maybe Izzy. I don't think all the changes made from the book helped the series and if a second season is what they had in mind, it wouldn't pull me in to watch.
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On 4/23/2020 at 3:31 PM, Ms Blue Jay said:
When Pearl says to Mia, "Where did I come from?" Mia has a pretty good answer or can supply that to Pearl or put her in touch with the people who can answer that for her. When Mae Ling grows up and says "Where did I come from?" the show kind of painted Helen as a person who didn't give a shit. I think if the show went on as Helen winning the case I don't think she'd ever let Bebe see her kid again.
I think that's a great point. Mirabelle is going to want to know who she was before she was Mirabelle - she will know she was adopted. And given how Helen responded on the stand, it sounded like they hadn't even considered that, which is kind of mind boggling. I think anyone who adopts a child outside of their race has to be ready for those questions and be sensitive to those issues and the McCulloughs didn't appear to even think it matters. Plus, now there's the whole media frenzy associated with this thing. I'm certainly not advocating for staying within your race when you adopt, etc., but I think when you adopt outside of your race, you need to be ready to engage in your child's ethnic world a little bit so they have an understanding of who they are and where they're from. It's basic respect, really.
Having read the book, I'm kind of meh on the finale. Elena was awful and hit new lows; I felt really badly for Izzy. But other than that, I don't really care. I didn't really buy that all three of the kids set the fire and I don't feel like Elena had any kind of epiphany when she went to the apartment. Someone as self absorbed as Elena wouldn't get that by looking at Mia's art. I half expected Elena to basically trash the whole installation; that would have seemed more realistic.
Overall, I felt like the series started off strong but at some point it went off the rails. I can't put my finger on where, but I watched the final episode because I'd made it this far, I figured I'd see where they took it.
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I think one more episode would have been helpful to fill in a few blanks. As it is, I'm left questioning whether Mrs. Lindbergh's relationship with the rabbi and Evelyn may have had enough impact on her to lead to her speech; maybe actually being friendly with people who are so vulnerable to being killed by extremists made the violence a little more relatable to her??? I don't know if that had anything to do with her speech, but it's the only thing I can figure. I previously thought she was tolerating or humoring the rabbi and Evelyn for her husband's sake, but maybe she felt more for them than I perceived.
It's interesting to me that in the end, Sandy was far more mature about his misplaced trust in Lindbergh than Evelyn and the rabbi. I'm sure at such a young age that it was tough for him to rip up his pictures and have the epiphany that his hero was such a let down, but he was wise enough to know that when you're wrong, you're wrong and there's no re-writing the past.
Evelyn and the rabbi, on the other hand... maybe their age and place in life actually got in the way of admitting the mistake. There was no acknowledgement that their actions may have put her sister's family at risk and in fact, Evelyn was more than ready to put them at further risk by hiding out with them. It underscored that Evelyn and the rabbi were able to twist whatever good was happening to them into being good for the community and the cause. Whatever, I was very gratified to see Bess turn Evelyn away. I guess in the end it was good Sandy went to Kentucky because otherwise, poor Seldon would probably be dead.
That phone call between Bess and Seldon was one of the best things I've seen on television in a long time. It was gut wrenching. Despite the rushed pace of the episode, I felt it was very well done - I was terrified during Herman and Sandy's drive to Kentucky and felt visceral fear like I've rarely experienced on a tv show.
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7 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:
Elena is a vindictive bitch, but I don't think she ever intended to send out that Christmas card. It was clear that she couldn't remove every trace of Izzy from the photo (her skirt was still visible in front of Trip) so there was no plausible way to make up an excuse (like "Izzy was sooo sick the day we took our photos and we just couldn't reschedule the photographer so we had to take the pictures without her").
I think that is probably true, which makes her expression of anger and frustration somewhat more palatable. I think sweeping the cut out Izzy into the drawer, where someone (Izzy) was bound to find them, was a passive aggressive act. She could have thrown that stuff in the trash, never to be found, but she left it in the drawer for someone to find.
I also think it's telling that it took Mr. Richardson to actually see the transgression, and it says so much about Elena that it's all about the surface. She was so focused on tartan and keds, etc., that as soon as it fit into her world view, she quit looking - she didn't really see the photograph or the people in it. Her husband saw it pretty quickly and had to point it out to her. It demonstrates her superficiality - the right look was all she wanted - proper facial expressions and clothing (this was the second sitting because she didn't like the facial expressions from the first shoot) - so it met her criteria for a successful Christmas card to show how perfect they are.
There's so much discussion about what makes a "good" parent. I don't think the fact that Mia hid the potential pool of money from Pearl makes her a bad parent. I don't have a problem with them hitting thrift shops or even pulling stuff off the curb to re-use in their apartment of the month (I live somewhere that people regularly put stuff out on the curb specifically to be re-homed elsewhere; it's just part of the culture here). I do have a problem with living a lifestyle that requires you to sleep in a car if you don't have to, so that's my problem with Mia and her income choices. Elena seems to be a fine parent to Moody and Trip; I think she's a meh parent to Lexie (it feels a bit like she's living vicariously through Lexie) and I think she's a shitty parent to Izzy.
As for May Ling, I think the McCulloughs will undoubtedly provide a more prosperous life where she will want and need for nothing, but given Mrs. McCullough's child-bearing challenges and now the custody battle, I'd be concerned that she becomes that parent who hovers and helicopters. I've got friends who do that and I don't think it's helpful in raising a self-sufficient human (co-sleeping a long time, never saying no and always saying yes because they want their child to "know how to be assertive" - it's terrifying to consider how dependent people like that make their children). I'd have a hard time turning May Ling over to Bebe simply because I don't have a sense that she's in a position to provide stability for the baby, but it wouldn't be an easy choice.
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5 hours ago, Whimsy said:
I think the show perfectly showed us Mia's motivation as it was exactly what was posted above AND Mia IS a selfish person who has little regard for anyone else's feelings.
I agree - that episode with the young Mia and young Elena did a great job of showing us how these two people ended up where they are. Consider that the last time Mia saw her brother alive that he was giving her a bit of a hard time about giving up the baby. His death threw her into a tailspin and subsequently, she decided she had to keep Pearl - maybe as a way of keeping her brother??? I think if her brother hadn't died, Mia would have continued with her plan.
I felt that Izzy's art project was from the right place, but clumsily done. She has mature thoughts and feelings, and is certainly a lot more progressive than her peers in her time and place, but she's still only 14, so I give her a bit of a pass. Yeah, it was cringe-worthy, but she's still of an age when it's normal to think this is an awesome idea! and run headfirst into a brick wall with that awesome idea. Hell, I know plenty of adults who aren't real good at critical thinking and doing some basic if/then analysis, so I can see how she went off the rails. Compared to her sister, Izzy is far more mature when it comes to empathy and trying to do the right thing.
By the end of the episode, we were slack-jawed at Elena's behavior throughout the episde - I went from being meh on her to actively hating her more than anyone else on the show. Obviously, telling Pearl about her origins was mean, vindictive and purely self-serving, but at least she's not Pearl's actual mother. The thing that really got me was how loathsome Elena was to her own child. First of all, the whole fight over the keds was ridiculous and it was telling that Elena would not tolerate the smallest bit of individuality from Izzy. But that bitch actively cut her child out of the photographs and was actually going to mail the family Christmas card with one member literally sliced out of it! What kind of message does that send to the eliminated child, the rest of the family, and everyone who receives it? She may love her child, but she clearly does not like her.
I was wondering in the court room scene what difference it would even make that Mia has her own history with Pearl. I understand that she's a character witness, but I don't know how taking Pearl is really all that relevant to the proceedings (in fact, I don't even know how great a character witness Mia would be anyway because really, what does she know about Bebe other than what she sees at work? Who cares what Mia, or any other character witness, thinks about birth mothers and parental rights?). I just don't see where a character witness is very helpful in this particular case - if I were hearing that case, I'd want to hear from social workers, etc - how stable is Bebe now, what are her child care plans?, what is her plan to provide for May Ling, etc.
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I actually liked having Ben around and I thought his presence actually helped the plot because it gave us some additional insight into the existing characters. Yes, we could have ended up in the same place without him, but I like knowing that Ruth can fall in love and that she can care about people beyond her clan. I think Ben's story is also going to impact Jonah next season. And I may be in the minority, but frankly Ben's presence did take away from the FBI agent/Helen's daughter/Helen/Wyatt & Darlene storylines a bit and I'm fine with that because I didn't want anymore of them.
I have known bipolar people but I haven't been around them enough to know if Ben's issue was portrayed realistically or not (though one of the bipolar people I know ended up killing himself, and Ben sure seemed to be self-destructive). There is one thing that does resonate for me, and that is when someone gets something in their head, mentally ill or mentally well, it can often be damned near impossible to get it out of their head. What makes sense to me may not make sense to you and vice versa, so the fact that Wendy couldn't "talk sense" into Ben, or the fact that he wouldn't stay on the ranch when common sense would say otherwise works for me because he was fixated on something.
Also, telling someone to "just take your meds" is so easy for me and most everyone else who doesn't have to take medication to function "normally". However, I've known a few people who take meds who quit taking them because (like Ben), they didn't like the way the medication made them feel, and like Ben, it had some significant consequences (suicide).
I think Mary and Wendy are absolutely awful human beings but I'm kind of impressed at how confident they are. They both think they can talk anyone into anything and seem genuinely surprised when they don't actually get their way. The fact that Marty thought he could turn an FBI agent so quickly and easily kind of blew my mind, but not as much as Wendy behaving as though she has actual real influence with Navarro. Maybe I'll be surprised, but he controls the Byrdes, not the other way around, and they'll be around as long as it serves his purpose, unless something happens with the cartel or the FBI to take him out.
I hate Helen too, and her daughter is a pain in the ass, however at least she hasn't brought her children into the game. Marty and Wendy literally made their illegal enterprise a family affair and it's all sorts of fucked up that they don't appear to have any real regret over that. I can't say that Zeke is actually worse off with Darlene at this point.
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I really love this series because it's so unlike anything else on tv. I read the books after the first season aired but knowing what I know doesn't keep me from watching because I find that I'm caught up in the show - the acting, the cinematography, the story itself. I sometimes find it hard to watch "period pieces" because I'm so used to living through and in my own time - attitudes are more progressive, technology is so different and has changed everything, so I have to consciously remind myself that the way I think today has little bearing on what I see on the screen.
Lenu and Lila grew up poor in post WWII Italy. Like most of their neighbors, they had an insular existence that was basically pre-ordained. Girls went one way, boys went another and there was nothing about the individual that mattered - who you were and what you did was ordained at birth, basically. The fact that the two girls were the gifted ones in their respective families didn't matter and almost seemed a matter of shame - shame that they didn't want to accept their roles, shame in disappointment in the ones in the families that were "supposed" to achieve success.
Lila can be cruel and very hard to like, but I don't know, if someone tossed me out of a third story window because I wanted to go to school, that would have some impact on me. Her relationship with Lenu is so complicated and it fascinates me. Lila's existence and obvious intelligence has been the primary motivator for much of Lenu's own success, from grade school, really, and I am sure that Lila knows that. I wonder would Lenu have gone as far as she has in school if she didn't want to best Lila - for better or worse, Lila does make Lenu strive to succeed in a way that I don't think would be happening without Lila.
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The Vow
in HBO Documentaries
I understand what you're saying, and agree to an extent, but she willingly gave the collateral and actually fabricated some of it. And I wonder how out she'd be if she had been one of Keith's chosen, or if she'd risen to Master level. I mean, she willingly became a slave; I think just about anyone who crosses that line will make the next jump to Master.
You aren't kidding. This thing is all over the map, and I think that also is affecting how I feel about the people involved. There doesn't seem to be a cohesive story, other than Keith is a magical svengali who had women enslaved and branded. I still don't really understand how that happens. And how about the money laundering? Will we get anything about the finances on this? And the timeline is really confusing for me as well - I can't tell when people got in, got wise and got out. For an HBO documentary, this is shabby.
And all of those brand photos on Sarah's phone...I hope she's in therapy to deal with that (I'm not being sarcastic) because she's really fixated on that brand. I sense that it's a literal scar of her victimization and maybe by hanging onto that she is able to rationalize some of what she did (all the people she recruited; making up collateral about her husband, etc). But for the sake of your mental health and your family, you have to move on, eventually. Keeping dozens of photos of the mark that is literally on your body doesn't seem to be good mental health.