Maysie
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Posts posted by Maysie
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I'm glad there are only three episodes left because I'll be able to stick it out to see how it all ends.
There's so much to question here, and it's not like they're a bunch of red herrings. Since Nicole Kidman is carrying this thing, I'll start with her. I do think that at least part of her frozen face is due to whatever cosmetic work she's had done-my husband referred to her as a "puppet face," because of the lines around her mouth. (We both thought of Cher about 30 years ago) I'm tired of the eye-dabbing (I noticed that in one of the earlier episodes) and her breathy voice. I assume these are acting choices or direction, but for what purpose? They don't tell me anything more about Grace. It feels like her character wasn't really fleshed out before they started production. So we know she is a therapist (and not a very good one, imo, based on what has been presented), she seemed to like her husband pretty well, or at least well enough (never got much of a read on how good or not good their marriage was) and she likes to walk. She obviously is from wealth, but we can't really know how much of that she relies on, or if she pretends she's self-supporting with the luxury of knowing there's a ready supply of money (or a trust fund) in case she needs it. She loves her kid, but she doesn't seem to be especially doting or engaged. She comes across as more of a loner or isolated to me, content in her own head. So maybe these "visions" are purely her imagination, putting her own spin on events as they unfold.
So much of this story seems unbelievable to me: the helicopter landing on the lawn (complete with lots of squad cars!), Grace's weird behavior with Elena's husband (stop following me but answer my questions!) and the interaction with the police that led to them showing her the video of her walking in Elena's neighborhood that night. The way Grace and Jonathan have handled this with their kid is also disturbing - they seem to have abdicated any responsibility for considering how all of this is going to affect their son. There's been no discussion about how to present this to him, how to navigate this, and I think that's really odd considering that Grace is supposed to be a great therapist. There could have been at least a throwaway line from Grace to someone (her dad, husband, friend) about how she's working on minimizing any damage to the kid. Again, is this poor writing or is it supposed to provide us insight into Grace? Is it like her unwillingness to get an attorney for herself? Is this supposed to show us that she's independent?
Donald Sutherland's character is similarly poorly developed, too. However, since he's not on screen so much, I'm giving that more of a pass. I think it's interesting that of the three main characters, the one that has been onscreen the least (Hugh Grant) is the one that is most developed.
For me, the problem is that if they're going to end up with a fugue state, or an unreliable narrator, the writing and/or acting hasn't been strong enough to support that story line. I'm just seeing a confusing mess and trying to figure out what may be real, what may be Grace and what the timeline is. When you add in the unbelievable elements (police behavior, the outsized press interest/stalking), it becomes even more challenging because you're suspending disbelief in addition to discerning what's real or not.
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22 hours ago, heatherchandler said:
I feel like it is probably poor writing. Isn't this the same writer as the other one where Nicole Kidman had to look nervous all the time? Big Little Lies? I thought that show had some terrible writing as well. Good premise, both of these shows... but the writing is bad, really bad.
I believe you're right. I liked the first season of Big Little Lies, even though I kind of figured it out about two episodes in, but the second season seemed like it was thrown together because they could, with Meryl Streep sealing the deal. This gives me a similar vibe - it feels like they're relying on the actors to make us handwave away the poor writing.
I have to say, HBO has been letting me down lately. We're currently re-watching the Sopranos and damn, the writing and acting is absolutely stellar. It sets such a high bar that when I give my time over to something like The Undoing, I wonder how it could possibly be from the same company. I know there's 20 years between the two shows, different writers, stories, actors, etc., but I used to assume that if something was on HBO it would be pretty tight. I may not have cared for the show (e.g., Deadwood), but I knew it would have some pretty solid acting, writing and continuity. I don't hate this show - I'm curious about how it's going to play out, etc. - but for me, it's emblematic that HBO isn't the gold standard for television so much these days.
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Throughout the episode my husband and I would look at each other and be all "no fucking way."
First of all, I have a hard time believing in a place like New York that Elena's murder would be such huge news that literally dozens of reporters are following it. It's not like she's famous or even "underground famous" in the art world. She did well enough to have a studio (financed by who - Grace's husband? Grace's father?), but from all appearances, money was tight. So I just have a hard time believing that if it got press, it would be much more than a story in the Post or something like that. Which leads me to...
even if it did get media coverage, the convergence of the press on the school is unbelievable. If I had to stretch it, maybe a tabloid reporter or two, but not a gauntlet of people that the parents and kids have to navigate. And as noted upthread, I can't imagine the school wouldn't have handled the whole thing better - the presence of the press, publicly shaming one of their favored parents and supporters, etc. If the school is that exclusive, I have to think they would have protocols in place to handle "interesting" situations. Add the cops loitering around the school - what the fuck?
We also side eyed Lily Rabe's character - confidentiality, but guess who I was representing???!!! If she didn't refuse Jonathan's case, why? So this is leading somewhere or is just poor writing, and at this point, I could go either way.
I am on the side of taking issue with Grace not having an attorney present when she went with the police. She's already been questioned by the police and they're hanging out at school, so for fuck's sake, listen to your father and get the attorney.
Based on what little I've seen of Grace at work, she doesn't strike me as a very good therapist. I always had the impression that a therapist was supposed to help you arrive at conclusions on your own. Yeah, they lead you there and there may be a push here and there, but Grace seems to cut right to the chase. Whomever upthread said that it shows how controlling she likes to be, I agree with this. But Grace is no Jennifer Melfi!
I hope I'm wrong, but this show seems to be built on names - Kidman, Grant, Sutherland - but a little light on substance. It feels a little like they're coasting on that. Not only is Nicole Kidman's face distracting, but she also slips into her native tongue sometimes and it pulls me further out of the moment.
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17 hours ago, MaryPatShelby said:
Sarah makes a comment similar to "a whole LOT is going to have to change for thost post-its to ever come off".
Which, to me, comes across as she's still somewhat in Lauren's thrall. I'm sorry, but if my bff recruited me to be her slave, took collateral from me, enticed me to do the same to others (basically leaving me vulnerable to federal charges), I don't know that I'd ever be open to taking those post-it's off. And when you add in the little things, such as sex trafficking and keeping a woman prisoner for two years, well, I'd be scavenging around for wedding pictures that didn't have her in them. In fact, I'd probably be more focused on replacing those pictures with other ones with my husband, kids and other healthy, happy relationships. But that's just me.
Will any of these people get some therapy to help them cope with their trauma? Sometimes it feels like they get off on re-living the trauma or feeding the victimization.
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I enjoyed it enough that I'm in for the series, unless something goes really bad. Unfortunately, Nicole Kidman's looks are distracting me. I'm in the minority that I kind of hate her hair - I don't think it's nearly as flattering on her as some of her other styles that frame her face. As well, during the therapy scenes, when the camera was close up on her, her face seemed expressionless and it took me out of the scenes a bit. I don't want to get into a discussion of anti-aging products/procedures and society and all that jazz, but it is disappointing when someone who is so gifted at their craft is limited in her facial expressions. Maybe that's on purpose for the part - she's a therapist and needs to be neutral/non-judgmental??? - but both my husband and I were wondering why she looked so frozen. (And I've long thought she and Keith Urban kind of look alike.)
It's interesting that right out of the gate, I don't think I like any of the characters, however I think they're interesting. I'm curious what has happened to the famous Dr. Frazer and where Donald Sutherland's character fits in this. I'm also wondering if we'll see any of Elena's art and if it is tied into the plot somehow, or whether it's going to focus on white privilege.
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1 hour ago, DearEvette said:
I hate how this show talked very little about Keith raping women outside of the shocking snippets of footage where he talks about it. This doc just seemed to make him some sort of Svengali toward the women in his upper circle and the slant definitely was that he slept (consensually) with these older women. But between the court transcripts and the Starz doc, it is clear that he actually raped women and under aged young girls as well.
This also begs the question how did Sarah escape his attention? By all accounts she was very high up in the infrastructure and there seems to be some indication that women in his high inner circle were sexually involved with him. Unless she was somehow off limits because she was such a high volume recruiter?
I'll tell you, if I relied on The Vow alone for information about NXIVM, I'd have a different view of Keith. I wouldn't like him, for sure. I'd still think he was an asshole who has an overinflated sense of himself and a gift for finding weak personalities to surround himself with and basically take care of him. Did the series ever mention the word "rape" in connection with Keith? Did it ever get into the fact that there was child abuse/rape going on? The more I read about him the more disgusted I become with this series because it comes off as some PR job for the main characters. With all this going on right under their noses - rape, imprisonment, trafficking - I have a really difficult time feeling sorry for Mark, Sarah and even Bonnie.
I understand that right versus wrong can have a lot of grey areas but rape and abuse is never right. And if the main characters of The Vow had any inkling in their deepest hearts that something like that was going on, they're as culpable as the people on trial. I don't think we'll ever really know what was on their radar; if they ever had misgivings, I doubt any of them would admit to it at this point.
I also wonder why Sarah wasn't on KR's radar. She wasn't with Nippy the entire time she was with NXIVM, as far as I could tell (to beat the dead horse, the timeline just wasn't clear about that) so why did Sarah get away unscathed?
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Although I haven't watched Seduced, the AV Club article did a nice job of summing up many of my issues with The Vow.
The New York Times has an article on KR. I'd link it, but it may require a subscription to read. Highlights:
- He's accused the judge of corruption and has demanded a new trial.
- He's "not sorry for his conduct or his choices" and feels he'll be vindicated.
- He was charged with racketeering, using a statute that previously had been used to dismantle major NY mafia families. He was found guilty of child pornography, forced labor, sex trafficking, identity theft and obstruction of justice.
- Prosecutors are going for a life sentence, though that is typically reserved for cases involving death/murder.
- KR's lawyers say no one was "shot, stabbed, punched, kicked, slapped or even yelled at," and KR should get no more than 15 years.
- There may be a witness (Camila) from Mexico, at his sentencing hearing; KR is accused of taking nude photographs of her when she was 15.
- Some brief history - his dad was an ad executive who traveled a lot and his mom was a professional ballroom dancer. His parents divorced when he was a child. His mother had open heart surgery when he was 13 and KR cared for her throughout high school, where he had no friends. She died after he started college. He started Consumers Buyline in 1990; it was shut down in 1997 and as part of the agreement with the NY attorney general's office, KR was forbidden to operate another multi level marking scheme in the state. He started NXIVM the following year.
There were some other bits, such as the 50+ who wrote letters to the court in support praising him and some of the things they said. It was a dry article, but it had some pretty basic information that The Vow didn't share.
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1 hour ago, DearEvette said:
Also, I think in my case it isn't so much my feelings about them overall, but rather how this particular documentary presented them. Intellectually I am aware that Sarah, Mark et. al all were victims of Keith. But otoh, this documentary did a piss poor job of making the outsider viewer understand the depth and breadth of it. Just getting the broad outline of what NXIVM is and seeing the results of all their indoctrination doesn't lend itself to sympathetic viewing. You are left with the 'how can they not tell they were in a cult for chrissake?' when we are just presented with a 2 minute snippet of Keith psychobabble or 'who on earth would sleep in a dog bed or why would their spouse think it is ok?'
Yes, I think for myself, there's a bit of a shooting of the messenger in all of this. I also believe that there's a possibility that Mark, Sarah and the filmmakers were too close to NXIVM to provide us good insight into it. Consider how challenging it can be to teach someone something that is totally new, yet you've done it routinely, repetitively, for months or years. You know the ins and outs, the hows and whys, etc., but when you have to show someone else, you give the abbreviated version of what you think will get the job done, of what you think is important to know. So I think it may be that they were so close to the organization they couldn't understand the questions that outsiders may have (like why is Keith so compelling? how did this organization function?), or they assumed we would inherently get it. Also, their personal feelings and injuries are very important and interesting to them - like that brand is a big damn deal to Sarah so we see and hear about it over and over and over - and there's an assumption that it's the same for everyone. But as someone from the outside trying to look in, the brand isn't the issue. I want to know what led to the brand - what leads an intelligent person to take such a drastic step (and all the drastic steps leading to it)?
So, there's group think in the cult, but there was group think in the documentary, imo. It would have been far better served to have someone totally unconnected to NXIVM make this series because there would have been that outsider to ask the questions we've all been asking and not get so wrapped up in some incredibly personal, but ultimately mostly uninteresting, feelings and stories.
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1 hour ago, mamadrama said:
I'm also glad that she's able to have some humor about some of the stuff. She has some good perspective. As annoying as her mom was in the series, she did a good job lining up the mental health people India needed.
She referred to KR as a Teddy Graham! India for the win!
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I think the Theranos analogy is a great one - she had some pretty high profile people hoodwinked. As well, that documentary did a great job of drawing the line from A to B, so I had a good idea of how that mess unfolded. I think The Vow's filmmakers need to watch some other documentaries before they do their final edit of part 2 of this thing to see how to put together a good narrative that holds interest.
I was thinking about it and decided that if the filmmakers wanted to spend so much time with Mark, Bonnie, etc., it would have been beneficial to show how they've been trying to recover since they got out. Instead it was so much phone time, Sarah's brand, staring into sunsets/oceans, driving in cars, looking wistful or congratulating themselves on their bravery. So when Mark has a meltdown or Bonnie is gobsmacked that a normal person realized that NXIVM was a cult with one short visit, I don't feel sorry for them. The endgame for me is they all promoted the organization and profited handsomely from it. As well, they participated in some loathsome aspects of NXIVM (Sarah's slave, Mark teaching DOS classes), which shows just how brainwashed they were. But there is nothing to indicate it won't happen again to them, particularly when they keep saying that aside from that nasty sex slave business, it was a good thing.
It's hard to know who is vulnerable to cults - I have a friend who has a grown daughter who, for a few months, fell into a Buddhist cult of all things. I don't know what made her realize that it was messed up, but she got there on her own. She's very smart and in tune with herself, so the fact she got sucked in was a little startling (I think she was at a vulnerable time in her life; her abusive marriage was ending), but I think the fact that she is smart and self aware ultimately saved her.
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The scene in the coffee shop was absolutely pathetic. When the young lady asked Mark what they were doing in Albany and he said "it's too long to get into," her response of "you can't tell me in 30 seconds?" sounded a bit like a set up. And then he launched into his we-unwittingly-joined-a-cult-that-did-very-bad-things-including-branding-women-and-making-them-slaves-and-now-we're-taking-them-down speech. It was this weird mix of sheepishly admitting their gullibility while still patting themselves on the back for being awesome! I think that Mark, Bonnie, Sarah, etc. have surrounded themselves with their fellow NXIVMers for so long that they weren't ready for anyone to actually challenge them with how obvious it was that NXIVM, at best, was a scam and at worse, a cult. Bonnie looked like someone threw a bucket of cold water on her when they weren't immediately sympathetic, but instead, were like "oh you fell for it!!!" So welcome to the real world, outside of the NXIVM cocoon. I sincerely hope they are all getting some counseling.
And another Catherine question came to me: why didn't she consult a professional to see how to deal with a child that has fallen prey to being brainwashed? I understand talking it out with your friends, but we were kind of baffled when they were all hanging out at her friend's house and she was quizzing him on what she should say to India when she saw her. It seems that someone with Catherine's resources would have been able to find someone other than a wealthy friend who could help her navigate her interactions with India to understand how to approach her daughter for the best possible outcome. And if her friend had that experience, let us know that!
At the end of it all, we decided this series could have been wrapped up in two or three episodes. We still don't have any inkling who Keith really is and how he came to be the leader of a cult. Is he a scientist? What is his education level? We know that he can play the piano, plays volleyball, takes a lot of walks and likes to lounge around on the couch while women tend to him. We also know that he's a master of double speak. My husband does executive coaching, and during the phone call with Bonnie, he said that there are two approaches you can take when coaching. The proper method is to ask questions and talk to someone and let them find their own conclusions and way forward-the coach has no preconceived notions, and if he/she does, they must be kept out of the conversation. The tempting, but not well-regarded way, is to already know where you want to end up and ask questions to lead the person there, seemingly on his/her own. Of course, Keith does it the second way and the conversation with Bonnie was a classic example of it.
This is such an interesting story, and I'm a bit bummed that the filmmakers took what should have been a goldmine of information and resources and turned it into a hot mess. After nine hours of viewing, we should have some basic understanding of who Keith is (including his childhood and education), how he started NXIVM with Nancy, what the organization's early days were like, how it was structured financially and who the players were. From there you can start picking off the individual charges - like the wire fraud, sex trafficking, etc. - and you can use the Marks, Sarahs, Barbaras, etc. to illustrate some points, provide background, etc. It's crazy that after nine hours, I'm left with many more questions than I started with - and some of those questions, such as what the charges were and how the Feds arrived at them are pretty basic. If I had to grade the series, it would probably be a C or a D. It had a baked in interesting story, but they missed on answering the most basic questions and lacked direction.
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9 hours ago, mamadrama said:
I think this situation is complicated. IMO Sarah, Mark, Nippy, and Bonnie (to an extent) are definitely victims. They were also at fault and part of the problem. I don't really find it to be an either/or thing here.
4 hours ago, EdnasEdibles said:Mark does this a lot "We joined a good thing and it turned out to be a cult" but no Mark, you never joined a good thing. Never. Using the kindest description of Nxivm, you joined an MLM focused on shady psycho babble. That's not a good thing. It never was a good thing. Your wealth depended upon recruiting others for this. Even very early on your "mentor" was making your wife lick puddles and chastised her for not running headfirst into a tree. Mark keeps focusing on this idea that he was a very good person who fell into a good program that eventually became bad. Mark needs to own his choices and his issues. He has some internal needs (belonging, spirituality, being important, being respected) that he is meeting in unhealthy ways - the unhealthiest and most recent was joining this cult. That doesn't mean he's a bad person but until he accepts that it is more multi-layered than "I am a good person who joined a good group that turned into a bad group"
I say a resounding YES! to both of the above. I think that pretty much everyone who walked into NXIVM and went beyond the first level of classes started out as victims. Whether it was Mark, Sarah, Toni, Barbara, Allison, India or just about anyone else, unless I learn otherwise, they didn't know going in that they were walking into a cult that happened to engage in sex crimes and fraudulent business practices. However, after some time, some of those people transformed from victims to enablers, willing participants and/or worse.
Mark was just fine with his wife sleeping on the floor because she was "bad." He led classes that basically taught the worthlessness and subservience of women, including the professed love of his life. I will grant that he probably didn't know about the sex trafficking or even the financial malfeasance, however, if you claim to be an enlightened person, working towards empowerment for people and peace on earth and all the other bullshit that was being spouted, you cannot believe that's a real thing when you are promoting the debasement of the other gender - and that's what those workshops did! So he started as a victim but he was a big enabler - he was on the executive board, ffs! Mark gets no pass from me.
I've asked more than once what Sarah, Mark and Catherine were digging up that was illegal because the information presented to us in the series was that everything was consensual. My husband and I debated whether the collateral was illegal - that could be extortion, I suppose, and if that is the case, Sarah should have been subject to prosecution too. So I guess that makes her "brave," for risking the legal liability there, but she didn't seem at all concerned about that in the series - she seemed more concerned about harassment, frivolous lawsuits (not unwarranted) and the nasty things NXIVM would say about her. I think Sarah started as a victim, but like Mark, she was a willing participant in all of it, progressing to the point where she had her own slaves. I've never really understood what the final straw was for her - what was that one thing that made her leave? It may have been stated in the series, and I missed it.
For all the talk among everyone about it being a "good thing" (even Barbara still spouts that shit!), I would like some sort of evidence about what the group did that actually was good. Something tangible. I understand that some people gained some confidence and became financially prosperous, but for all the bs they spouted about changing the world, what did they do towards that? There's no tangible evidence, such as community centers, libraries, programs to help underserved populations, etc that NXIVM did anything other than make people pay to listen to Keith, play volleyball and feel a little bit better about themselves.
If you want to do good things, try something like the Peace Corps or volunteer with something that is close to your heart.
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On 10/16/2020 at 3:37 PM, mamadrama said:
I think I misunderstood the narrative of this series. I thought it was a 9 part series about NXIVM (more specifically, DOS). But it's really about a handful of ex members' experience in the cult. And that's fine, but I think I'm disappointed because I was expecting some indepth information about the formation of the cult, how the "tech" worked and was created, the money laundering, underage sex, etc. Instead, it's more or less the personal experiences of a small number of ex members. Kinda like if you'd sat down to watch FYRE FRAUD thinking it was going to be an overview of the failed festival, only to learn that the documentary was really about Influencers A, B,& C's experiences with the festival.
I'm with you - I did not expect so much focus on a few people. After reading the link posted by MicheleinPhilly, I have a better understanding of why Mark, Bonnie and Sarah figured so prominently in the series. Those relationships/friendships are a natural starting point for the filmmakers. However, again, I end up with more questions, specifically about timing. When did Bonnie leave? If I remember correctly, the Variety article mentions the filmmakers taking NXIVM classes as late as 2017, when Mark was still active in the group. Did the filmmakers "witness" all this falling apart? Were they still taking classes in NXIVM while Bonnie left? When Sarah and Mark left? Did Mark encourage the filmmakers to finish their classes even after he was gone? (and if so, why???) I think that should have been disclosed to the viewers because I'm left feeling like I'm viewing a bit of propaganda. I can't put my finger on why, but I feel a little manipulated.
Since the filmmakers had personal relationships with the featured people, I believe everyone would have been better served to focus on these people and how they are moving on in life and "in recovery" from having belonged to a cult. Instead we've had this hodge podge of information thrown at us with no cohesive narrative and new people introduced at odd times (Jane, Barbara, Susan) to show us what a bastard Keith could be and how NXIVM almost ruined them. If we relied on this series alone, we'd have no real idea of what the actual crimes are or why Keith is in jail. We still know nothing about the financial crimes, what specifically occurred to be considered sex trafficking and forget about the underage girls - there is not a peep about that. The filmmakers want us to know it's about much more than a sex cult, but they haven't really done anything to dispel that notion.
I will monitor the message boards to see if the second season does a better job, but I can't blindingly give over any more time to these filmmakers. They aren't particularly good storytellers, even with a compelling story. I need to know I'm not going to be strung along on some serpentine mission to make some people feel better about themselves for unwittingly joining a cult.
Based on what I've seen in the series, NXIVM has a penchant for attracting people who aren't bad at what they do, but as has been noted throughout the topic thread, they aren't superstars either (unlike Scientology, for example). I'm not saying they're talentless (I mean, their sales game seems pretty strong because they are able to recruit people and make plenty of money), but from what I've seen, these aren't people at the top of their field. So I'm not really surprised that the filmmakers are also NXIVM class attendees.
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11 minutes ago, Cheezwiz said:
And did anyone else notice that he kept saying that "when men are angry and aggressive, they want to grab something and fuck it". Not fuck SOMEONE, but some THING. He repeated this over and over. Women are not even human to him. They are things to be used.
Yes! I did get that! I think that's part of the rapey vibe. And you're right - women are things, not people.
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12 hours ago, mamadrama said:
I think Mark was also embarrassed. By Catherine "outing" him with that story it belied his *good guy* persona. Throughout this whole thing he's tried to come across as a good guy caught up in a bad situation. A good guy who was blissfully unaware of what was happening. That story made him an active participant.
That's true. We've had at least two episodes (I think one of the early ones) of Mark talking about how he was never a real guy's guy or macho, and that he was always much more sensitive than other guys. And so his need to keep that strong male bond with Keith must have been overridden whatever part of him (I'd say instinct, but we know what NXIVM says about that!) should have been repelled at what was happening at those workshops and going on in his own relationship with his wife. So that's a whole different kind of master/slave relationship with Keith. In fact, now that I think about it, the "readiness drills," where Keith would text his SOP guys and expect an immediate "Ready!" in response is kind of like the drills the masters put their slaves through.
There was so much wrong in those workshops that I'd forgotten about Keith getting in that woman's face and screaming at her. The thing about that is, generally, a woman just doesn't have the deep voice that's going to be as intimidating as a man's voice, so most men are going to have a bit of a head start on any woman with that intimidation method. It would have been fascinating if a woman who had some basic knowledge about body language had chosen to push back a little - you know, stand super close to him, cross her arms, widen her stance and basically never break eye contact. I wonder how he would have felt about little princesses then.
Also, in the men's session, when Keith was discussing anger and the subsequent need to fuck in response to that anger, I got a real rapey vibe from him. Mark referred to it as "porn," but I could only think "rape" because it came across rather violent to me.
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16 hours ago, Pop Tart said:
She sent the text to Allison before she went to be interviewed by the FBI as a last chance for Allison to get out from under Keith. They filmed her reading the text out loud for purposes of the documentary, but it was sent a bit earlier. I don’t fault her for that. She thought that if Allison turned herself in, so to speak, it would keep Keith from trying to claim he had nothing to do with DOS and laying it all on Allison.
The timeline in this series is whacked, so it's really difficult to know who did/said what when. But my feeling is, if Sarah knew that the FBI investigation is pending, she shouldn't have warned Allison. Allison would have her chance to turn on Keith and provide evidence; the only thing warning Allison does is give them an opportunity to destroy evidence, etc. I feel like the FBI had a greater chance of turning Allison, or any of the other participants; as far as NXIVM is concerned, the likes of Sarah, Mark, Bonnie, etc are the equivalent of blasphemers. We saw how they discredited Barbara and Susan so effectively.
14 hours ago, Door County Cherry said:My issue with saying Keith had "mommy issues" is that it blames a man's misogyny on something a woman did. It's always possible that his mother was abusive but there are tons of other potential factors behind misogyny that have nothing to do with malfeasance by a person's mother.
When I wrote that I felt he had issues with his mother, I didn't mean it as she is to blame for his misogyny, and I probably was too cavalier with that observation. In the videos they showed, his mother sure seemed to be an engaged, loving mother, but what can we really surmise from a few video clips? And as someone upthread noted, his issues could come from his dad - they could come from anyone. Like, did he have any siblings? What about his teachers and other adult influencers? I guess this is one of the areas that I continue to find fault with the filmmakers; it would shed so much light to learn a little about Keith's history. We know where we end up with him, but how did we get here? What made him into who he is now? But his hatred and disdain of women was unmistakable.
5 hours ago, FozzyBear said:im on the fence about how law enforcement should treat people like her. I’m sure she is a victim of abuse but I’m also sure she committed abuse. I feel that way about all of them actually (with the exception of Bonnie. I think I believe that once she got to the point where she was high enough up to be abusing others she left. I suspect it’s why she left) and I don’t know what is the appropriate end to all of this. In some ways I think Mark, Sara, Bonnie, and Nippy have paid a terrible price for their involvement but in some ways I feel like they have gotten off the hook way too easily.
Yes! I've been struggling with this. Based on what we've seen, it doesn't appear that Mark, Bonnie and Nippy committed any actual crimes, unless they were somehow tied up in the financial fraud aspect of the organization (promoting a MLM scheme - the legality of those can be pretty dicey), but it sure looks to me that if Sarah hadn't extricated herself when she did, she'd be at risk for some of the sex trafficking stuff. What has Allison done that Sarah hasn't done? I'm not asking to be combative against the people who like Sarah, but I'm genuinely curious. Because if whatever was done to India was a crime, then isn't Sarah bringing her own slaves into this also a crime? Or is it about age of consent? Again, I fault the filmmakers for being so poor at laying this out clearly to us.
6 hours ago, sadie said:And Mark, sorry, but he’s at the top of my shit list too. He loved being at the head of those meetings and making those women line up and drop and give him 20 or whatever bullshit that was. Then to learn he allowed his wife to sleep on a dog bed as penance? Wtf? He gets no sympathy from me, he would probably still be at it if this whole thing didn’t start to crumble. Bonnie, girl, what are you thinking?
5 hours ago, FozzyBear said:I think Mark is still in a very dangerous place mentally. He knows NXIVM was crap and trouble and abusive but also he’s still there mentally. When he blamed Bonnie for his own shame about the dog bed story, then told her she was re-traumatized until she started crying, and then told her he needed to protect her after she started crying because he was yelling at her...I got serious KR vibes. I get a similar vibe from Sarah when she’s talking about the case and how no one has done this before and it’s going to change the world and they’re so brave. They both know they can’t be in NXIVM but they still want to be there.
I agree with both of these. I can only guess that Mark and Sarah are super insecure and they've lost their mooring without NXIVM. I think that's sad, especially for Sarah who seems to have a really wonderful family at the end of the day.
I will watch the last episode because I'm in it now, but I keep thinking of what a missed opportunity this was. The Scientology documentary, Going Clear (or Getting Clear???) did an excellent job with very similar themes. You could see how the guy that started Scientology became what he was - the history was laid out really well and they took us on a nice, interesting journey of how one individual's life experiences leads to some really bizarre places. It was fascinating. I'm curious about the last episode because I want to see if they bring Barbara and Susan back in, or how they lay out the charges against Keith. But I'm not expecting much, honestly, other than that at some point, I'll see Sarah's brand.
I don't get STARZ, but even if I did, I'd take a pass. I don't need to see any more of Catherine's quest to rescue India. It isn't all that interesting to me. I want to know how Keith became what he is, what the roadmap for NXIVM was (financially and otherwise) and get into how they built the case for his arrest.
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There's a lot to unpack about this episode - I have many strong thoughts about Keith and his misogyny, and a lot of them have been expressed already. After watching the episode and discussing it with my husband, I said he obviously has some real mother issues. His take is that instead of being stopped from, or punished for, hitting a girl, Keith was a bully, probably getting away with picking on the weaker kids until he got called on it. I don't know if I agree with him, but it's a possibility. I guess we'll never know because at this point, Keith would be an unreliable source for this information.
A few things jumped out at me:
- Before Sarah left for New York, they showed a text message she sent to Allison, basically warning her/asking her if she was willing to take the hit for DOS instead of Keith - was that while all this investigating stuff/getting the FBI involved was going on? Because if it was, then WTF???? As I and others have said the past month or so, the timing on this has been very confusing, so I'm not clear when she sent that text. But if it was during this investigation, then it leads me to believe that she's still not really free of NXIVM.
- The whole dog bed/penance thing bothered me on a couple levels. First, I thought it was insensitive, and actually kind of nasty, of Catherine to bring it up and actually laugh about it. It was not funny and somehow, I don't think if that had been India in Bonnie's place that she'd be laughing about it. And if they did it to bring this into the episode, then that sucks too, because it makes me think so much of it is contrived. It was interesting that Bonnie went from laughing to crying in like two minutes and it took Mark losing his shit to make her cry.
- As for Mark, that episode, along with the beach scene with Nippy, made me even more disgusted with him for having to do some double checking on Bonnie's problems with NXIVM, shown early in the series. Mark not only participated in these "trainings," but it sounds like he actively presented/facilitated some and allowed his wife to debase herself by sleeping on the floor next to their bed like their dog. And after all that, he had to do his own investigating before deciding to support her when she elected to walk away?
Nippy and Mark are a real study in contrasts. Nippy is good and done with the organization and appears to be trying to reconcile that he did bad shit in the pursuit to be a better person (although according to Keith, "good people know when they do bad things."). Mark, on the other hand, seems to be still kind of stuck in his brainwashed status and it was telling when he asked Mark if he ever still needs to feel "ready" and admitted to still being in that mindset, as opposed to Nippy who was all "hell no."
And of course, Sarah's brand. I guess the question isn't if we'll see it next week, but when.
I sincerely hope all of these people are in therapy because they need it. They've experienced real trauma and a betrayal of trust on multiple levels and aside from Nippy, they seem to be in a bit of denial in their responses. Keith picked, and exploited, weak and insecure people. We all have those moments, but Keith seems to have a knack for finding the people that are especially vulnerable. It just seems to me that they need to figure out what led them to such extreme measures and how to navigate that in a healthy way.
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21 hours ago, Armchair Critic said:
How convenient to be able to call “Chaaaarles” for help.
I struggle with Catherine because I think the situation with India had to suck, but damn, she's pretentious. That whole scene just smacked of a set up so she could name drop him.
This series continually buries the lede. They start with Sarah, Mark, Bonnie, etc on the beach (again) burning their shame. I understand why they did that because it jibed nicely with Nancy's shame lecture. But what did that whole thing add? We've been hearing for a month's worth of programming now how bad Mark and Sarah feel about bringing others into this and how they want to make amends, etc. The beach scene was nothing new. Then all that time with Catherine - it bored me and I didn't feel like it added anything. I understand that it's probably her old c-list name and connections that jump started the investigation from the state again, but ffs, I don't want to watch and listen to her drive around in her car, talking to whomever on the phone and then watch everyone kiss her ass at Frank's house. Cut to the chase!!!! I was happy to see Sarah come up with the idea to actually use their multi level marketing as a means to try to get people to come out of the woodwork - that was a scene that was worth seeing and it made a lot of sense.
Keith.1, when he was doing Consumer Buyline or whatever it was, was really enlightening. He also looked like a baby.
Toni was a very interesting twist - they could have done a deeper dive on that. And the fact that after the time with Susan last week, we just got a hint that she actually succeeded to some extent in fighting off the many many lawsuits - is that true? If so, my respect for her has increased even more. The audio was interesting from her trial and wish they would do more stuff along those lines. If they had shown some of the barriers she and Toni and Barbara faced over the years, as well as gone into more depth about how Keith turned them into pariahs, it might help pave the way for where we are with Mark and Sarah and their concerns, etc. It feels backwards to me.
My one question about Toni is did Keith really get the FBI to investigate her? My husband and I gave that one a huge side eye because it just seems like that's a really big order. And if that's true, then I want to learn more about that kind of stuff because it implies he has a pretty significant reach.
1 hour ago, BucFan said:Of course we couldn’t get through this episode without see a picture of Sarah’s brand.
I think the series should have been named "The Brand."
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20 hours ago, Proclone said:
My thoughts on Sarah are this...I really want to be sympathetic to someone who was brainwashed and branded, but she doesn't make it easy. I think part of her problem is she's one of those personality types that must be the best or at the pinnacle of everything. She couldn't be the best actor in the world because of lack of natural talent and opportunity, so when she found ESP she decided she was going be the best student/recruiter/whatever she could be. When that all when sideways...I hate to say it, this is going to sound awful, but in someways I think now she's trying to be the best at being a victim.
I think this is well said. I'm related by marriage to one of these people and it's true - when she does something well she's AWESOME and when she is ill/injured/compromised, she's still AWESOME (and no one has overcome a greater challenge). I have to work to separate her need to be the best from what she's actually experiencing in her life so I can be supportive when necessary, because yes, even those people need support. They just make it so damn hard sometimes.
I think all of these people need therapy. They've been traumatized (some more than others) and from my perspective, it's important to make that time a defining moment in your life as opposed to the thing that defines you. I feel like Bonnie and Susan are in the former camp and Sarah is in the latter. I can't tell where Mark or Barbara are on that scale.
19 hours ago, Door County Cherry said:I don't think all the women who left were on the board. I am pretty sure Susan wasn't. Barbara said she realized that the board was made up of women who were sleeping with Keith. That's what made her start to turn.
Susan was not on the board, if I remember correctly. I believe she was running Seattle (and when she left and that office closed, it left an opportunity for Sarah to open Vancouver). What I am not sure about is if the entire executive board of nine women resigned at once. Again, the documentary has been unclear about who was where, in what position and when they bailed. It sounds like Susan might have left a bit before Barbara??? I was going to say it doesn't matter, but it kind of does because it just underscores that if there was a significant number of influential people (board members and center leaders) leaving the organization in a short amount of time, that a lot of people chose to overlook that and give Keith a pass.
11 hours ago, DearEvette said:At the very least, they should have had some expert talking heads giving context alongside the personal stories.
I think it would have been helpful to have someone walk us through - a narrator! - start to finish, about how this thing unfolded. They could have begun at the end - like headlines/newscasts of who's been charged with what - and then take us back to how Keith got started, etc. and how it evolved into a sex trafficking pyramid scheme (not all multi level marketing is illegal - Amway, Tupperware, etc). Instead, I feel like we were brought in about 3/4 of the way through everything and each episode lurches us back and forth in time. So I have no feel for what the organization's structure is, how the pyramid works and then how these individual business units (DOS, etc) unfolded and who had what role in which scheme. I've seen other documentaries work on a chronological basis and even if the more compelling stuff doesn't happen until closer to the end, at least you understand how you got there. For example, I think "I'll Be Gone in the Dark" did an excellent job of taking pieces of information from different times, people, agencies, geographies, crimes, etc. and then tying it all together. I understand it was based on the book, but the premise is the same - disparate stories and people coming together into a cohesive narrative.
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A few things that jumped out at me in this last episode:
- Sarah referring to being "pinned down and branded" - now I'm sure there were people holding her down because that has to hurt like a bitch, however, this makes it sound as though she was branded against her will. This is a far, far cry from her bragging about being badass at her branding and not shedding a tear. Combined with her branded vagina, she has no credibility with me.
- At her NY Times party, Sarah's facetiming with Mark (I think) and Barbara calls and she says, "it's Barbara - should I take it?" That struck my husband and I, because why wouldn't she take it? Were they avoiding Barbara for some reason, and if so, why? This seems a bit different from the chummyness later in the episode.
- I felt like they finally laid a little groundwork about the financial implications in all this. I may be misinterpreting it, but it seemed like Barbara was a good sized fish (financially) they reeled in and became kind of a bedrock for future money-making. When I saw footage of Keith and Barbara, he seemed like he was going through the motions (IMO) - never got any vibe of real feeling for her from him, so it seemed purely transactional (from a financial perspective) for him.
- It seemed like they glossed over the fact that the entire executive board of nine people resigned en masse (did I misinterpret this???). In any other organization that would be a big damn deal. And it makes me side eye Mark even more because I bet it never occurred to him to wonder why nine people would quit at once - I mean, it worked out great for him! It also makes it even more annoying that when Bonnie was looking for support from him when she was getting out, he had to do some of his own sleuthing. It seems to me the mass resignation that elevated him to executive board member status should have been a red flag.
- I liked and felt very sorry for Susan and Barbara. Barbara is particularly disturbing because she appears to be still enthralled by Keith.
- Keith basically lives like a pig. Seriously, when he's not playing volleyball, taking midnight walks or sitting on some sort of chair on a platform spouting off, he's literally laying around on his couch in his overcrowded, overfurnished, messy townhouse (or whatever it is), relying on women to wait on him and make him dinner. These women are all over that? Jesus.
- It hurt my heart to see the Dalai Lama in that meeting. And Keith's false modesty ("I'm not a guru") was so obvious.
- I'm still wondering why Sarah was never one of Keith's chosen ones. She's not unattractive, so I'm guessing that she had more financial value in the field, recruiting people and running the Vancouver office.
5 hours ago, MicheleinPhilly said:She was expecting nothing more than adulation and admiration for her bravery in coming forward and with the timing of the #MeToo movement, thought this would lead to bigger and better things. You could see how she was almost giddy at the prospect. And then as soon as people started expressing a shred of skepticism and asking IMO reasonable questions, she went back into full on victim mode. Don't get me wrong, these people ARE victims, but there is something about Sarah over these last few episodes that has made me seriously question her motivation in being so front and center in this documentary.
I actively dislike her now. I know she's probably dealing with the trauma of all of this, but for pete's sake, get some help. There are women who had it far worse than you do - look at Susan and Barbara, who really lost everything (Sara and Nippy appear to be doing pretty well, financially, despite all this). Hearing her crow about being on the front page of the NY Times (showing off her vagina brand!) made me cringe.
On 9/28/2020 at 2:17 PM, Cheezwiz said:I really thought that by this point they would have gotten into more of the nuts and bolts workings of the organization, and revealed more of the nefarious activities of the founders, but I'm kind of losing hope that this will happen. I hadn't heard the revelations about Keith & Pam Cafrit posted upthread, and they're pretty horrifying.
This episode left me with even more questions - like Barbara and Susan may have insight into the finances of the organization, including potential problems. Sarah and Mark obviously knew about Barbara and Susan before the story broke, so why didn't they try to bring them in on this effort to take the group down? It just seems there's some safety and power in numbers, but they seem to resist widening their circle.
A dumb question: what is "chargeable" in instances like NXIVM? Catherine went to "30 Rock" (as she pointed out) and got to air her concerns (and subsequently got the attorney general's attention, so props to her) but what was illegal about what was happening to India? What was illegal about Sarah's situation? Bonnie's? Unethical? Yes! Immoral? Yes! But as long as people willingly submit to master and slave relationships and agree to be branded, submit to food monitoring, etc., where can the law help?
I'm watching the last three episodes because I want to see how they tie it up, but I'm not optimistic that I'll get many questions answered.
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11 hours ago, pigs-in-space said:
If you were howling reading it, just wait until you are graced with Simply Human’s performances.
Boy, that rendition of Roxanne was . . . interesting. The vocalist was awful. Some songs don't lend themselves to a cappella and now I know that Roxanne is one of them.
10 hours ago, Cheezwiz said:Also still wanna know what those Crosbys were up to in their hotel room.
I find it hilarious that a group known as the Bing Crosbys trashed a hotel room.
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19 hours ago, Bitsy said:
I'm not that keen on any of these people, and that includes Bonnie. She got involved in this because she liked Mark's asinine movie. She currently makes her living reading tarot. I could do without she and Mark's self-congratulatory assertions that they were targeted by the cult because they are successful, beautiful and superior "critical thinkers". They aren't. All of them are dumbass suckers with very little personality who threw themselves into the cult because it gave them something to form their identities around. Bonnie only has a modicum more personality and common sense than the others.
The episode that had Bonnie telling Catherine "of course they went for India because she's so awesome!" was illuminating for me because it laid bare the way these people see themselves vs. what I'm seeing on the screen. I see people who are insecure, and subsequently, looking for validation, whether it's personally or professionally. As well, there seems to be something about them that will bring some sort of financial element to the table that makes it worthwhile for Keith and the Salzmans to elevate them to something "special" (Mark's prior film making success; Sarah's ability to sell; India and the Bronfman's familial success/ties).
18 hours ago, mamadrama said:I don't think any of these people have been completely deprogrammed. Maybe Nippy. Not only do they believe that they were pulled in because of their beauty, success, and minds but Sarah and Mark (and probably Allison) also believe that they were targeted because they were big-time Hollywood people. I'm sure these are ALL things that they were repeatedly told over the years.
I think there's at least a little of that going on. I also think there's some self-talk that they kind of have to believe that they were brought in because they have those desirable qualities, instead of lacking them. Maybe I'm projecting, but it seems like it's a little less bad they were so sucked in if they were brought in and duped because they were so successful, instead of brought in and duped because they were easy marks.
1 hour ago, mamadrama said:There are lots of interesting things that they're not touching. For instance, the main reason Bonnie got fed up is because Keith opened up SOP (the male group) to women, but it wound up being emotionally abusive and misogynistic. The idea was to literally "break" women down. They would actually make the women wear udders as "penance", among other things. And some DOS initiations actually included sexual assault (tying a naked woman down and performing oral sex on her). And Keith convincing women that his sperm gave them special powers. And the underage girls...Why aren't we hearing about these things?
That's becoming my issue with the series. I understand that some people wouldn't want to be public about what happened to them, but some women, aside from Sarah, came forward so there was a trial and conviction, so I wonder if we'll ever hear from them. If I remember correctly, based on the stuff Sarah had for the police, there wasn't anything to investigate because she was a consenting adult for engaging in a master/slave relationship and getting branded. From what's been presented so far, we know that Keith is bad simply because we, the viewers, are able to listen to him and know that he's full of shit and at the very least a manipulative prick. So far, everything we've seen is legal - it may be unethical or fucked up, but there's nothing illegal in what he's done from what's been shown to date. So how do we get from here to there? And when are we going to see that? They haven't even mentioned anything of the above and I think it's past time to do so. Instead, we get Mark on the phone. Sarah on the phone. Catherine at her computer. Catherine in her car. Bonnie staring at the ocean. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.
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2 hours ago, Tachi Rocinante said:
I don't know if I'm misunderstanding your point, but those photos appeared (to me) to be of different women's brands. The patterns were not the same. Which leads me to my next point - why aren't the brands all the same? All of them were done manually with sloppy craftsmanship. They couldn't fashion a piece of metal and make it quick?
That's a great point - I hadn't thought of that.
But it begs a question (or three, as it turns out)- if she has photos of that many different brands, how did she get them? What was she doing with them? And most importantly, how are they not her collateral?
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3 hours ago, LeGrandElephant said:
I missed that, do you remember which part?
There was also a lot of naked parts in the background, shot in red and blue, etc. It was such an odd choice; I remember commenting "okay, it's a re-enactment, but why do we have to see naked ladies?"
The more I think about this last episode, the more I feel it's done a disservice to the story. I felt like it started strong - I was really interested in it. However, we have about four episodes left (right?) and I have no idea of the timeline we're in and how things really unfolded. I end up with more questions than answers as things go on, and I don't think that's necessarily a good thing.
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S01.E03: Do No Harm
in The Undoing
I was trying to recall if she spoke that way in Big Little Lies, which is the last thing I saw her in, but I can't remember. I liked the first season of that show, but I ended up hate-watching the last season and so my feelings about whatever Nicole Kidman did in that are probably skewed.
Knowing what we know now about Elena's baby really does add a different dimension to that breastfeeding scene. I hadn't thought about it in that way. It's interesting to recall those scenes from the perspective we're getting as this story goes on. I have to say, I'll be disappointed if Elena was getting all fatal attraction about the relationship. I know that stuff happens, but it seems tired in 2020.