Catfi9ht

I agree with all of the above. This is the first episode this season where I've had an emotional reaction to the material. I thought tension-building showing Castiel's internal struggle with the cuts back and forth between Heaven and punching Dean was a really good tempo and the timing of the conflict resolution was well done. Bravo to this episode's director! Finally, a grown-up episode this season. Well as grown up as you can get with a show about Angels, Demons, and other Supernatural miscellany.

Just rewatched this episode (which I had no memory of other than Sam killing the hellhound) and my main comment is this end game is a repeat of past seasons especially the bickering back and forth between Sam and Dean. Dean: "I'm going to sacrifice myself so you can have a normal life!" Sam: "You just think I'll screw it up! You don't trust me!" How about some character growth show writers? How about Sam and Dean using the past 7 years to trust each and help each other through something together? I really admire the stamina and tolerance you all have. I'm starting to remember why I stopped watching after this season originally.

I agree with your point of it's a one, off episode and completely ignores the current overarching story line. However since I find myself not caring about the overall story line, I didn't really think of the episode in that context. I'm sure if I was emotionally invested in what was going on, I would feel exactly the same way you do. I've been reading the other threads and I'm in overall agreement with this is a "body snatchers" season. It's the same characters but they're behaving rather differently than normal. I think that's why I'm not emotionally invested. I couldn't care less about Purgatory, Amelia, Benny, and the tablet nonsense. However, I will say, one-off aside, think was the first episode I remember actually enjoying this season. It had the right mix of funny and creepy and felt like the Supernatural of old which is funny because I don't remember liking this episode as much the first time through. I was cringing at the title because I thought it would demean LARPers and all the smaller roles would be TV-tropey caricatures of nerds, but I thought it was a fairly accurate and normal depiction.

First, I want to apologize in advance for my general crankiness in this post. It seems that everyone generally likes this season and this episode in particular, and I'm really sorry I feel very differently. Originally, I stopped watching Supernatural after season 8 so I'm fairly ignorant of anything after that season. However, I thought I'd try to rewatch the show since it's coming to an end, and I really did enjoy the earlier seasons of the show, the actors, and most of the writers. I'm kind of regretting my decision because watching this season has been a real struggle for me. Generally, I find the concept of the Leviathans stupid. Their motivations, humans as cattle, is really boring and a common concept for supernatural creatures as a whole. In their introduction, it's stated they're pre-biblical monsters and were locked away swiftly after creation which isn't true since Leviathans are in the Old Testament. Why didn't the writers choose to write them in concert with existing mythology rather than making up a different origin which makes no sense? Also, Angels are supposed to be the first creatures God created so why do Leviathans trump Angels? Bibbing as a concept is stupid as well. These are supposed to be one of the oldest creatures ever created and the best they can come up with to kill subordinates is to put on a plastic bib and have them cannibalize themselves? That's not scary; it's lame and almost comical. I love Ben Edlund and his beautiful talent for writing. Pretty much everything he's ever done (The Tick, Firefly, Angel, etc.) is fantastic except for this season of Supernatural. How can the same person that wrote Ghostfacers (my favorite episode to date) write this episode? Granted, it's one of the best this season, but it's still pretty bad compared to the earlier seasons. I will say the bright spot of this season is the actor that plays Dick Roman. I just wish that I found Leviathans interesting and/or scary because it really takes away from the fantastic job that actor does. Finally, I'm dreading rewatching season 8 because I remember liking it less than this season. However, I'm hoping that maybe things will get better after season 8 because I genuinely used to love this show and the actors in it and thought it had smart writing. When everything is said and done, I'd like to remember this show fondly throughout it's run with some bumps along the way, but I've currently got my doubts.

Overall, I'm in agreement with most everyone. I thought this season was much better than the last one. I'm not sure if it was because of the structured nature of the key quest that gave this season better direction or if the storyline itself was more engaging for me. The Good Almost everyone's storyline. I especially enjoyed story arcs for Julia, Margot, and Fen. I'm glad they gave the Faerie Queen an actual story rather than just being an asshole to humans. Good overall mix of humor and emotional, interesting drama. Setup to season for against The Library. I'm looking forward to the conflict between The Library and our main characters. The Bad PostNiffinAlice continues to be an asshole and her addiction storyline is so boring. Typical, I can't be trusted with X so no one else can have it either. The Meh The unnamed BigBad. Using kids or innocents as the ultimate baddy is overplayed and not interesting to me. You can't give that type of personality nuance and I find black/white characters boring. Penny's storyline this season just seemed as an aside and not really connected with the overall season arc. However, I am glad they brought in Penny23 so Arjun Gupta still gets screen time. I really enjoy his connection with the rest of the team even though Penny23 is a different person than Penny40. As a separate topic, I'm rewatching Supernatural (currently on season 7) and I did not like Sera Gamble's interpretation of that show's tone compared to the initial seasons. However, I really think her writing style and tone matches this show really well. I also looked on Wikipedia and noticed the writers for seasons 2 and 3 are essentially the same ones so it makes me wonder what happened to season 2? Season 3 was written so much better IMHO. Maybe it's because of the books; I haven't read the books so it's just speculation on my part.

The production value has enough to keep me interested for now. I'm intrigued by the little details on the costuming and set pieces and I don't overtly hate any of the characters yet except poor man's Donnie Wahlberg, Adam Strange. The cape "hourglass" gimmick makes me roll my eyes every time it's shown in frame, but so far it's not terrible like some of the other stuff I've watched lately. (side-eye to Jessica Jones season 2). They've already given Dev a little depth so we'll see where the rest of the characters go from here.

Well, this last episode was quite the letdown after the roller coaster that was episode 12. So the penultimate fight between Frank and Billy was at the carousel. I totally understand why they chose it for the symbolism, but holy crap was that a mess to film. All the camera shots had to be super tight because of the cramped conditions. So tight that they couldn't even show both characters from head to toe. I wish they would have started at the carousel, moved off of it for some mobility, and then back in at the end to ruin Billy's face. Overall, though I really enjoyed this show. I'm not sure what order my top three is (DD S1, JJ S1, Punisher), but they're pretty darn close. Here's my rundown, of the good and the bad. Good Frank - Everything John Bernthal does as the Punisher is amazing. Nothing bad from him that I can recall. Karen - I love the way these writers portrayed Karen. She was stern, tough, and almost a partner to Frank. In DD, all she did was yell and never really got her point across nearly as well as she did in this series. In both series, her motivation was the same (to save people she cared about from vigilantism), but she was written as a more compelling character in this show. Billy - I had never seen this actor before so I fell for his good guy portrayal hook, line, and sinker. Boy was he good about turning on the charm and then turning into a slimy little shit on a dime. David - I hated David at first and found him completely annoying, but as his relationship with Frank became closer, he became less annoying. Great supporting cast - Lewis, Curtis, Marion, Sarah, David's daughter, and David's asshole son were great as well for varying reasons. Bad Madani - Wow was Madani written as a total narcissist at the beginning of the season. She even has a line to her mother about Sam's career. It's something like, "His career was going nowhere until I stepped in and gave him drive and focus." She was written as less of a narcissist toward the end of the season, but I think that's because she was more of the law enforcement plot device and they really didn't attempt to explore her character at all after her Sam died. I really hope she doesn't return for season two unless they change how the character is written and give her some humility. Too Many Bills - I know Billy Russo existed in the Marvel Universe before the show, but did William Rawlins? If not, why on earth would they name both bad guys Bill? In episode 12 when Frank keeps using Bill with both Bills in the room, I kept thinking, "Which one is he talking to?" Finally, I ran across this picture on IMDB when looking at the cast for Punisher. John Bernthal in Eastwick (2009). Look at how cute and cuddly he is!!

This sums up my entire feelings toward the show. I'm really disappointed how quickly this show went from clever writing, (e.g. strip club sandwich in S2E16, Pour Some Sugar, Zombie, tongue-in-cheek references like DA Barracus, and the jokey origin of Dale's name) to anvils everywhere basically starting in season 3. The show was really good at riding the line between quirky and annoying by staying firmly on the quirky side for a while. Now, Liv is so annoying during interrogation scenes that I can't stand to watch them when she used to be the best character on the show. It seems like the entire writing staff left after season 2 and they brought a new group in starting with season 3 that has no idea how to write nuance. Show, you were fun for a while, but like overly attached girlfriend, you went from cute to intensely annoying at the speed of light. I think we'll have to break up. I'm sad at what you could have been Show, but I'll have to face reality and accept what you are.

It looks like I'm in the minority again. I thought the pacing of this episode was fantastic and the escalating cuts between Frank and his wife and Frank being tortured were really well done. I also liked we saw the end of the "get up" conversation with his wife where she laments that Frank really wants to be on deployment instead of home with his family. The camera work between the two sets of cuts was really well done too. The intensity of this episode was one well constructed roller coaster ride IMHO. The tension was built, intensified, and released in all the right places for me. This episode was far and away my favorite of the season (next to Kandahar probably) and I would have been completely satisfied if this was the season finale. I'm curious to see how they'll actually end the season.

I agree with all of the above. Overall, I was not a fan of this episode and think it's one of the weaker ones because of the plot holes identified above, and I despise putting the end at the beginning of a tv episode, movie, whatever if it's used in a traditional manner like this episode did. It takes all of the emotion out of the episode for me. I knew Karen, Madani, Russo, and the Senator were never in any danger because it showed them recounting their stories. However, if they hadn't used that type of narrative, the scenes between Russo and Madani and when Karen gets kidnapped would have had some emotional response from me. I loved the scene of Frank and Karen in the elevator. Holy crap. Kudos to both actors for conveying an amazing range of emotions without any dialogue. I also liked Lewis's death scene; super tragic. As someone who knew a vet who couldn't deal with the real world after war and committed suicide, I had a total soft spot for Lewis and thought the actor did an amazing job as well. Poor Lewis's dad. He tried so hard to help him, but didn't have any idea how much the kid was hurting inside.

I completely agree. I know some people can handle if the main character is unlikable, but I'm not one of those people. However, the fact that Frank didn't immediately ask about Gunner when he woke up seemed like the antithesis of how they've been writing Frank lately. That part didn't sit well with me. Why didn't the writer add a simple line in there to make it more in keeping with the character? Ugh. The whole Madani storyline can get lost out in the woods for all I care. I haven't seen any redeeming qualities about her character. Obviously, Mr. CIA Blacksite is evil and combine that with a selfish, promotion-hungry DHS agent and the show is a little lopsided for me at the moment. I like Karen more on this show when she's acting as a stern but firm conscience rather than yelling about it like she did on Daredevil. The actress has the chops to pull off dramatic nuance. I hope we continue to see this side of Karen more. I also loved how she stood toe-to-toe with Madani. She maintained eye contact at all times to make sure to let Madani know she couldn't be intimidated.

I guess I'm in the minority here. I thought this was a fantastic episode (the best so far). For frame of reference, I just finished watching Jessica Jones season 2 which I thought was terribly and superficially written. To contrast it with this episode, I thought the writing was much deeper and even the smallest characters aren't one dimensional. The Good I love the PTSD support group scenes even when it doesn't affect the main storyline. Currently, there's an entire generation of American service men and women who have been fighting an unwinnable war for 15 years. I don't think there's enough attention paid to what all those folks have gone through and are still going through. I also think it's a nice parallel to what Frank is going through mentally shown through other characters, which makes Frank more sympathetic in my eyes. I thought that Russo was going to be a bad guy because of what his company does (and most corporate characters turn out to be baddies), but in the flashbacks, he seemed like a pretty decent dude so that was a nice surprise. The flashbacks for Operation Cerberus gave us a good setup of what the operation was, how Frank was pushed over the edge to have all the personality traits necessary to become the Punisher, and how Frank's rescue recounted by Clancy Brown in Daredevil were woven into that. The Bad I hate Dinah's character, but I didn't understand why until this episode. Her mom admitted she was only interested in a promotion and climbing the ladder during the discussion scene in the bedroom. People obsessed with status (which usually leads to ego and hubris) bore me. Add to that the way she talked to her former partner (which showed her ego and power trip due to her promotion) made her completely unlikable in my eyes. Maybe that's the point because they're setting up for a Dinah/Frank showdown. However, the best protagonist/antagonist stories to me are the ones where you can understand both sides. So far, I'm Team Frank all the way. Overall, I'm interested in where the story goes, which I didn't think I would be. I assumed it would be all revenge porn, but it's got more depth than that so far which is nice.

I agree completely. For me, there was no complexity to Jessica's mom. She had two modes, rage on and rage off. Alisa did grow on me the last two episodes of the season when she was finally showing some nuance, but by then I hated the character so I was not emotionally invested. It seems like they retconned Jessica's mom to be more like Jessica than Jessica remembered (or vice versa) without showing any actual context. I wish they would have shown two sets of flashbacks about the Jones family, one from Jessica's POV as an innocent kid and one from Alisa's as the adult. They could have added some complexity to Alisa in the past while allowing Hulk!Alisa to continue to be ragey. Also, they minimally touched on Alisa vs. Kilgrave attempting to alienate Jessica from everyone else she loved, but they could have built a larger parallel between the Alisa and Kilgrave especially regarding the similarities of Kilgrave and Malus. I realize I'm in the minority, but I think Jeri's storyline was the most emotionally interesting story this season even though it was an aside from the main storylines. Carrie-Anne Moss's despair at the empty apartment was heartbreaking even though Jeri is a pretty terrible human. I fist-pumped at Jeri getting back at Inez and Shane and getting her own law firm. I thought the entire storyline was in-character, well thoughout, and emotionally satisfying. I'm really disappointed in Trish as a character and her relentless, selfish pursuit of powers. However, I thought her motivations were entirely in character so even though I didn't agree with her choices, they made sense to me. Finally, Krysten Ritter was amazing this season. Her inner rage at Trish after killing her mom to her utter despair at her mom's death was awesome. I wish I would have actually liked Jessica's mom so I could have had some emotional response to Jessica's loss and the character's death.

I agree on all points. I think what makes Jessica forgivable to me is she is self-aware of her flaws and tries to navigate through them as best as she can. However, Trish is sanctimonious and self-righteous about her behavior which makes her completely unsympathetic to me. I knew the new, nice guard was dead meat because Jessica's mom is a POS. The one person that was nice to her in prison might be dead because she had a temper tantrum. Yawn. Talk about a character with no depth. Just wanted to give a shout-out to Jennifer Lynch directing this episode. I'm a big fan of her work and knew she would handle the hallucinations/imaginary aspects of this episode really well. I've also noticed that the majority of the directors this season (if not all) have been women, which is really refreshing to see. However, I just wish they would have had smarter writing this season to go along with it.

I agree completely. The whole point of the Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde villain trope is the Dr. Jekyll side of the character is tragic and/or sympathetic. I feel neither toward Jessica's mom. While not good writing, I feel they're writing Trish's Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde storyline better than Jessica's mom's. At least I can see Trish's point of view and the reason why she would take the combat enhancing substance. Trish has always wanted to be a superhero, and she's tried to live vicariously through Jessica. Jessica's mom's motivation is just to murder anyone who gets in her way.

Agreed. I kept checking the time in this episode wondering why it wasn't over yet. About the only thing that was moving to me was Trish on the floor of the club's bathroom. That poor girl only knows how to use sexual advances to get attention from men and thinks that it's normal and okay. I had a friend in high school like that (and she was sexually abused when she was little) so I've always had a soft spot for girls/women who fall into that trap. Overall with this season so far, I'm disappointed in the "mom is the villain" trope. I think Jessica's mom is just annoying, not scary. I wished they would have went in a different direction with the IGH/origin story for Jessica. Edited to add: I'm not a fan of the whole Trish/drug addiction storyline either, but I get it that Trish always wanted to be a super hero, and the drug kind of turns her into one so it makes sense to me from a character perspective.

First time rewatching season 6, and I just noticed the SoullessSam metaphor perfectly describes what happened to this show this season. It looked like Supernatural, it kind of sounded like Supernatural, but something about it was off. Even consistently good writers for the show didn't seem to deliver the same level of quality in the previous seasons. Ben Edlund, who IMHO had not delivered a bad show prior to this season, had some ideas that were funny in context but didn't deliver in the finished product, Clap Your Hands... and The French Mistake come to mind in particular. Maybe Eric Kripke was better at making the show conform to its construct in the universe he created and when he stepped back as showrunner, Sera Gamble didn't fit that role as well. Supernatural seems to fail to me when they try to expand the universe to ideas that don't particularly fit with the tone of the show (e.g. faeries and leprechauns). If they would have delivered a more American Gods-esque leprechaun, etc. I think it would have fit with the universe better. As a separate idea, the Lovecraftian lore was an excellent fit for this show, but it was relegated to a single episode. Realistically, the only episodes that people need to watch to understand the season in it's entirety are 19, 20, and 22. Episode 21 felt like it should have aired in a different order and didn't blend with the momentum of the other three of the last four. Finally, too many disjointed ideas in this season that don't come together, heaven's weapons, Eve, purgatory, Castiel's journey. They could have just went with purgatory and Castiel as the main season arch and nothing of value would have been lost. I don't feel like the Eve character was necessary at all to introduce purgatory. Ok, well to end on a positive note, I really enjoyed Weekend at Bobby's and Appointment in Samarra.

As someone who also graduated high school in the 90s, I disagree. Hence, my post. We had a handful of fashion forward girls who dressed like Buffy or Cordelia, but the majority of the girls that went to my school dressed like Willow.

Hello all, Long time lurker, very infrequent poster. Originally, I only watched up to season 8 before I gave up on this show because it changed into something I couldn't watch anymore. However, I think I have completionist OCD or something because I've begun rewatching Supernatural since season 14 will be its last. Since it's been about five years since I watched, I figured I would start from the beginning. Anyway, this episode bothered me enough to warrant a post so here it is. I felt like they weren't even trying to set a tone or ambiance for this episode at all. The school, the kids' clothes were all identical in the flashbacks and present. What I don't understand is why they didn't differentiate between the flashbacks and the present? In 1997, the school would have been 12 years younger so the present school should have been showing some age. Since the flashbacks were set in 1997, why were none of the kids wearing 90s attire? Obviously, I'll give the male characters a pass since they were wearing neutral clothing, but none of the female students were wearing anything from that time period. As a comparison, Buffy started in 1997 and take a look at what the kids were wearing in that season compared to the flashback here. In fact, this scene in the flashback, the actress wearing a circa 2009 top. The folded material and button up sleeves are a dead giveaway. I looked up the director for this episode, Adam Kane, and this is the only Supernatural episode he ever directed. However, he's directed several of Bryan Fullers's series (Pushing Daisies and Hannibal). Both of which are highly stylized shows. I thought the beginning of this season started out strong and was very similar in style and strength to season 3. However, the back half of season 4 just seems incredibly lazy. Maybe this was the beginning of the end of Supernatural for me. Who knows? Only time will tell. Anyway, thanks for the great comments everyone! I've really been enjoying reading them as I've been watching the show.

Long time lurker and former TWOPer. I very rarely post, but I really enjoyed this show and wanted to give the forum some love. I thought this season was very well directed in a bunch of episodes, especially the episode with Marcy regaining her memories. My theory about 001 is he transferred into the doctor before the interrogations of the hostages. I believe Perrault showing her heartbeat monitor and indicating she was participating against her will was just a red herring. There was a conversation between Simon and 001 where 001 told Simon he would need to transfer multiple consciousnesses before Simon was transferred to make sure the transfers worked so we know that Simon went last. Also, the phrase "multiple transfers before Simon" was used so that seems to indicate that it wasn't just 001 so there might be someone else we don't know about. Finally, I'm guessing the Director knows that 001 transferred prior to the new traveler overwriting him. When the web cam was turned on, Trevor's confession voiceover was describing a glassy-eyed, dead stare (or something similar) in a body without a consciousness which is exactly the expression on 001's face before the new traveler arrived. The Director (or other travelers) reviewing the footage would notice that look and put two-and-two together. Anyway, I really enjoyed season 2 and am looking forward to season 3!