Retired at last

Maybe (?) he is being more honest with her off-camera and because it doesn't meet the producer's narrative, she can't say anything. But, we know she will never ever ever like him, even though she says he is a great guy.

Even if I hadn't heard about the return of the "Fake Rafe" story, I would have been suspicious why all of a sudden there are Rafe mentions - a few of them.

Many people have said that they only are together when they film on evenings and weekends, depending on their work locations in relation to where the show makes them "live." David said on AP once that during the honeymoon, they never spoke at all, except when the cameras were on and that he slept on the couch the whole time. I think the couples who really want to make it work do try to live together, but even then, there are times when one will say they spent the night at their own apartment, for whatever reason. I am sure that Karla lives in the supplied apartment, since she doesn't have her own, and I am also sure that Juan lives in his apartment, which he loves.

I agree that Michelle wants someone more financially stable and who likes to have nice things. That is her lifestyle. And I disagree that wanting that is superficial. David likes his more simple life. He is open to trying new things, which is great, but she shouldn't have to train him. I dated someone once with very limited life experiences, and after teaching all day, the last thing I wanted was to come home and teach him about going to a museum! I figured that, at this point in his life, as an adult, if he wanted to go to one, he would have, despite his meager upbringing. So, while I continue to dislike Michelle and her personality, I am starting to understand her more. She still needs to be honest and say that it is not going to work. About Pia - yikes! She needs a stylist and fast. She looked horrible and very uncomfortable.

I agree, @Alexander Pope. This jerk makes my former choice for worst man ever, that Chris guy, look almost acceptable. He is not going to change, and the longer Emem stays there, the more I lose any respect for her. She has always given him the side eye, like she doesn't believe him (or it could be those awful eyelashes), but she needs to just leave. It looked like from the previews that something happens next time (in 3 weeks) that she calls him out for something/everything, and I hope the producers give her options, as far as living arrangements. At first I thought that David and Michelle wouldn't make it to D-Day, but now I just want Emem to leave. ETA - so spell check will accept Ikechi, but every time I write Emem, it changes to Emma, Hemet (?), and other words!🤣

Both Michelle and Madison are not attracted to their spouses. Period. Madison seems to be trying more, but then she does things like hang out with her friends instead of her husband. I don't like either of them, but Michelle bugs me more. She is now having to face the fact that she has issues that need to be resolved. I loved it when Pia played the video of her saying what she wanted. That perked David up a bit, since he was exactly what she said. Now, granted, there were things she didn't say, and probably didn't think she had to specify, but she does need to go home. Now. Let David have some fun with his friends and Madison. ETA - I do disagree with the experts who consider lifestyle and finances superficial. I would NOT want to be matched with someone I would have to support, so I understand what Michelle is saying. She refuses to accept that, so she shouldn't. However, a reminder to her that she hasn't been successful finding the right combination on her own. Or, she could travel with Karla since Juan is too busy. Allen (finally saw the correct spelling) is a good guy and deserves better. She is trying to have it all - her party lifestyle, a husband, and a TV camera. He deserves better and she needs to grow up. I think she is the youngest on the show this season, correct? Tom and Camille finally seem to be doing well, now that the probable producer-directed culture talk is over. She is sticking to her need for swag, but isn't mean about it. He is a good sport, and those crazy kids just might make it - at least to Decision Day. Karla is still a whiny, pouty baby, who needs to be told how wonderful she is all the time. Juan is NOT that guy and she doesn't know how to handle that. Again, I am sure they were matched for their looks instead of the producer/experts probing to see what they really want in a partner. Karla wants attention and commitment, Juan wants fun. Interesting that she wouldn't let him meet her father until she was sure it would be real. Smart. Ikechi and Emem - just WOW. He is such an arrogant ass with the worst passive-aggressive attitude. She needs to get out. She also needs to get rid of those eyelashes. She can't even hold her head up correctly. Why she wants to have sex with him is beyond any reason I can see. Yuck. "I want to get to know you, but don't ask me any questions," is ridiculous. He is controlling and manipulative and should never have been picked - which they knew. Anyone who applies and was not selected and moves to another city and tries again has an ulterior motive. Looks like the next show is not for 3 weeks. Happy Holidays, everyone.

Or, his mother could have cleaned it before they got home.

I think the days of nice, kind, likable people who really want to get married are long gone. The past several seasons (0/5) show that. As far as people getting what they "asked for," I still say that this is not Santa's list. If what they wanted was so easy to find, they would have found it on their own. Either their expectations are too high or their self-esteem is too high and they all want gorgeous, healthy, happy partners. Most are unwilling to look beyond their wish list, so they will never be satisfied. Perhaps the people who actually apply for the show may be more willing, but I am guessing that the ones (usually men) who were recruited are doing this for fun and some kind of exposure. I understand the frustrations of the "experts" when they find someone who is so shallow, that they can't overlook a superficial feature (such as no bald men, or certain hair color), but, I also understand that people want what they (think they) want. I think that the reason that this season was so delayed after the dismal last season is that the results are no better and the people are no more likable. Well, Allen/Alan is nice and I still like David, although he is not attractive to me. And, I don't really care about any of the women (at least how they are portrayed). So, while the original intent of the show may have been focused of marriage, this show has devolved into a typical scripted reality show where nothing is real and everyone is cast to play a part.

I know there have been MANY Black couples/people on this show and there has never been as much discussion about culture before, so maybe it is their "producer assigned" problem they have to resolve. But, even Afterparty seemed to spend the whole show talking about this topic this week. I wish they would find something else to focus on. And, if that is all that Camille and Tom have to argue about, then just let them be and let them be the couple that seems like a real couple, since none of the others do, and it would be nice to have ONE couple be happy.

Well, we know these people are never gone. Just this week, Stacia was on Afterparty. The successful marriages seem to go away and live their lives (except for Jamie and Doug, who had to be forcefully removed). The ones who didn't work out keep popping up on panels and other filler shows. I guess any recognition is good? Although, I wonder how that worked out for that "f'ing good person" Alyssa?

I usually fall asleep during the show, which doesn't start until 9 here, so I watch the recording. Last night, I managed to watch a lot of it live, but decided I will never do that again! I wished I could ff any time Ikechi was on - what an arrogant, defensive ass he is. He wasn't much better on the Afterparty. I don't think his appearance on this show is going to do him any good. He certainly didn't sign up and apply TWICE to get a wife. And Emem is just too strange for me. Neither one of them are attracted to the other one, and she keeps making weird faces and giving him side eye every time he speaks. I get that, but she isn't coming off as being happy with her match. I also want to add that in addition to the "like," the "yeahs" are equally annoying. I think that is all that Michelle and Madison have managed to say to their spouses. Michelle is still a cold bitch, and his friend pretty much silenced her about her attitude about David living at home. She is going to have to find another reason to not like him. I HOPE he is getting tired of asking what he can do better, when he is doing way too much to try to make this "marriage" work. I did love how they managed to nonchalantly insert in there that David and Madison have continued to work out together. That is going to blow up soon, I hope! That is what happens when the show insists on having everyone live in the same place. I don't really like Madison, either, but she is not as condescending or mean to Allen. He still doesn't feel any emotional connection with her, but she is playing the game. She laughs too much, and her hair with the extensions is ridiculous. Karla and Juan are just kind of there. There is no chemistry between them and he seems clueless as to how to express any emotion or pay attention to her. He just wants to have fun, as he has repeatedly said. And, in the previews for next week, he says he is not feeling any attraction to her, which I am guessing is not something she has heard much. But, as long as she is focusing on their energy and not their communication, nothing will change. It won't anyway - they are done. Tom is nice, but Camille doesn't know what she wants. She thinks she is this cool urban chick, but she isn't. For me, there is way too much conversation about her/their culture. It is interesting for a little while, but it has gone on too long. And, also on Afterparty. Again, it brought out an interesting perspective, but let's move on. He is trying, but she doesn't give him anything to work with and just smiles a lot.

Let's see. . . what life-changing news could Tate receive and that the next day he vows to help Sophia? Hmmm, let me think. . . I must have missed something - who is going to court and what is Maggie supposed to testify to and why would Belle tell Sarah to tell the truth? I sure hope we find out the TRUE owner of Titan, which would be Xander, since we know that Viv and Phil forged the latest documents.

I am not sure that when David said that Michelle's place was "simple," he meant it as an insult. I think he meant it was uncluttered and clean. It didn't have a lot of stuff all over it, unlike his place. I could be wrong, but I think, at this point, nothing he could say would be OK with her.

I have been watching the recording, but I still dislike Michelle. She is all about herself. That's all. I hope David doesn't just get into the mode of doing whatever he thinks she wants. He will never win. Even when she brought that list, her first thought was, "Look at me trying!" Like she wants a medal. The experts were way too easy on her, and we didn't see them even talk to David. Madison is doing a good job of acting like she is interested, but she's not. Not when she spends the night out and at her apartment with her girls. This is the same conversation they had with the not-ready-for-marriage Virginia, when they had to insist that she live like a married woman, not a party girl. She was several years younger and WAS a party girl. Madison is still partying and the fact that on her first night home from her honeymoon, she went out for dinner "and drinks" with her friends and spent the night at her apartment. She is NOT ready for marriage - at least to Allen. He seems way too kind to her. And her braid was ridiculous and not cute or sexy. Juan and Karla are not jiving at all. She still wants to be taken care of, and he isn't having that. They are all using the "safe space"excuse for being bitches (Michelle, Madison, Karla, Camille so far). And Emam is not interested or attracted to Ikechi at all. I don't blame her, but she pretends that all is good when her face does not reflect that. The experts keep saying, you look great together, you have a great foundation, etc. Nope.

I will have to (maybe) watch it later. I saw bits and pieces last night and thought that both of the experts looked awful. They looked wan and weary. All I remember seeing is Michelle coming up with a list of things that SHE wants to do and they can do them together. I saw a little of her on Afterparty and it seemed like she was getting praise for trying her best. I think maybe KNP was pushing her a little to own some her issues, but I am not seeing any growth on her part at all. And, I saw a clip of David's "apartment." Michelle was right - it is a dump in his parents' basement. Just a thought - so his mom couldn't get in there and clean the place before they returned home, or perhaps the producers told her not to - or to make it a dump? Nah, they wouldn't do that.