SassAndSnacks
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Posts posted by SassAndSnacks
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18 hours ago, gingerella said:
So, I was initially totally confused as to why Jamie was the only one pushing for a march on London, and then I finally realized that DUH, he is trying once again to change history, and I just felt like, good on you man, at least you keep trying different approaches!
Gah, I feel for the lad. You have to believe that there is a sense of desperation there, knowing what he knows. Since he is aware of how it ends, he must constantly be searching for opportunities to re-route history.
18 hours ago, gingerella said:I loved Jamie watching Claire sleep, and was trying to make out what he said to her when she asked him, if got most of it, but not after he said “But I can say things while ye sleep.” Did anyone catch what he says after that? And not for nothing but who the hell would think Gaelic could be soooo hot? Not me...
I don't have the quotes directly (isn't that @Anothermi's role here!), but basically, he's telling her that he says things to her while she's sleeping because the words would sound foolish if she was awake.
While ye sleep in my arms, I can say things to ye that would be daft and silly waking, and your dreams will know the truth of them. Go back to sleep, mo duinne.
Sigh...
18 hours ago, gingerella said:Despite the heaviness of this episode, which felt like a good old S01 episode, there was a fair amount of humorous lines peppered throughout. The best part was Jamie and Murtagh trying to decipher Claire’s note in Gaelic, and Murtagh’s utter disbelief and dismay, “She’s even misspelled ‘Help’...!” I think I caught Jamie saying something back like, "Aye, we'll give her Gaelic lessons when we see her" or something to that effect? I mean, the funny lines are so entwined into tense moments and delivered deadpan in the most delicious way.
That's the beauty of Diana Gabaldon, who wrote this particular episode.
18 hours ago, gingerella said:So with 'Wanted' posters all over every town of Red Jamie, that answered my question of whether or not King Louis obtained an actual radon for Jamie before they left France. I guess not, and really, Louis had no real impetus to follow through on that, but I am growing tired of people talking bullshit and never actually delivering. Louis, the Duke, etc. Also, if you know you’re wanted and they're calling you 'Red Jamie', why not shave yer damn head, ye ken?!?
3 hours ago, Pallas said:I'm not sure. Jamie and Claire seemed safe and unconcerned at Lallybroch after they returned from France. But Jamie's pardon would more likely have been a parole. He broke parole, and then some, by taking up arms against the government. Charles's letter "proved" that, and Red Jamie's been identified since then: by the young soldier they released, for one.
I don't think the show did such a good job of setting this up, but basically, by making his "vow" to BPC, Jamie became a traitor. Then, he became an actual leader of the rebellion - supplying men, leading them into battle, being a key advisor to BPC. He became notorious as a fierce warrior and a critical cog in the uprising's early success.
3 hours ago, Pallas said:18 hours ago, gingerella said:This whole British-army-just-can’t-leave-the-local-Scots-alone is wearing on my last nerve. There is no reason to shoot at every group of individual Scottish person they encounter and yet that seems to be their M.O.
I'm not sure I see that, here. The British patrol, fighting an insurgency in support of James Stuart (son of a dethroned King), comes across a formation of rebel soldiers, and engages them.
Agree.
1 hour ago, Anothermi said:Claire is so much less—crazy-making—now she is back in Scotland. She comes up with plans that don't land everyone in greater danger (at least not recently); she utilizes her healing skills on a regular basis—regardless of the unconducive-to-healing circumstances; and lastly, she no longer feels she has to lie to Jamie.
I really love the exchange she and Jamie have in the church when they are surrounded. "Am I not Lady Broch Tuarach? Are these men not my responsibility too?" He would never sacrifice her, but she did it herself. It circles back to the points that were made in the previous episode thread that these two work so well together because they both fearlessly throw themselves into doing what they believe to be right. It is never just about the two of them but about the greater whole.
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On 4/24/2021 at 5:22 PM, gingerella said:
I didn't realize until I started watching this show.
Neither did I. No idea., so it is interesting to me to watch the politics of this playing out now, especially on the heels of Brexit.
On 4/24/2021 at 5:22 PM, gingerella said:I wonder how many wars could have been prevented if those on the battlefield really knew and understood the real reasons their higher ups were waging war in the first place.
I'm reading a book about WWI now (fascinating!), and your statement above made me think of a line from German General von Hindenburg - "Humanity is governed by certain truths, and with all my soul, I believe one of those truths to be that war is the natural state of mankind. We will conquer or we will die." (The underlining is my emphasis.)
It's a much larger conversation that includes more than just the plot of this show, but do people even know how to live peacefully? Could Jamie ever live peacefully and without conflict?
On 4/24/2021 at 5:22 PM, gingerella said:That scene...it circles right back to The Wedding, when Claire is so nervous and panicked that she looks at Jamie in his wedding finery and she looks like she's about to faint with fear, so he smiles and does this gallant bow...
Great catch! These two...ugh...
On 4/24/2021 at 9:24 PM, Cdh20 said:This is your fave season 2 epi? Not 213?
100% YES. And I willna say more! (Until we get to that episode.)
15 hours ago, gingerella said:I think he is torn up because he has no children or heir of his own.
Do we know this for sure?
On 4/24/2021 at 9:00 PM, Pallas said:Yes, I think Dougal is short-sighted in the way of, well, narcissists: he can only see qualities and motives that mirror his own. And he has many fine qualities and a few good motives, so he can appreciate that Jamie maneuvered him into the bog, for the good of the cause -- but not that he also did so for Dougal's sake.
This is really interesting, and I completely agree. He's a bit like bad manager who only hires staff that are just like him, and then the whole team ends up not functioning properly.
Colum has a wider vision, can recognize useful qualities in people that he can utilize for the good of the full Clan. He's had to come about this skill for a variety of reasons - he was the oldest male and therefore groomed to be laird from his earliest days, he did not have the physical abilities of the other kids so he had to compensate for that with mental abilities, out-thinking and manipulating people to get what he wanted and needed. Dougal always had the physical, and by being a brute, he was able to get what he wanted and needed. He never had to hone any other means to achieve anything.
Except, even with all of that physical prowess, Colum still out-foxed him at every turn, got Dougal to do his bidding in multiple ways, and was even named Laird despite his disabilities. The shock of that! Salt in the wound! And now, now his protege, his nephew, has done the same thing to him! He was the one showing Jamie how to be physical for all of these years, teaching that physicality was the means to accomplish, to rule, to intimidate, to lead. And now Jamie has turned it and made this a mental game as well. He went completely Colum on Dougal. That has to be astonishing and yet incredibly eye-opening. Jamie has both physical and mental prowess. It had to have a been an "Oh Shit" moment for Dougal.
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First, let me say that I eagerly await your posts on each episode, and when I see that the three of you have moved on to a new one and post about it, I always give an excited squeal. For this episode, it was really more of an excited WHOOP!! because this is my favorite episode of the season. (I don't think that is spoilery.)
And also let me say you did not disappoint with the commentary. <insert chef's kiss>
13 hours ago, Anothermi said:BPC: Your noble wife will be among those providing medical succor for those poor souls in need of such come the cannon's roar?
Jamie: Aye, she's helping to set up a field hospital even as we speak, Your Royal Highness.
BPC: Be so kind to tell her the prince asks that British casualties be tended to before the Jacobite wounded. The British are my father's subjects also, and I will have them well cared for. They must be made to realize the Scots wage war upon them with the greatest of reluctance. They are our enemies now, but one day soon they will be our friends again.Jamie: I'm afraid the British have never been a friend to the Scots.
This exchange so perfectly shows BPC douchiness. He doesn't care a fig for the Scots. They are a means to an end for him.
2 hours ago, Pallas said:Charles is fighting for an England, Scotland and Ireland under divine, absolute Stuart rule, rather than Hanoverian rule by decree of Parliament. The story did protect the horses, but its protagonists backed the wrong horse. For an independent Scotland, there was no right horse.
This is a great summary of the politics involved, and it actually makes me sad. The truth of it is that every war involves a "Scotland" - a group of people, a country, a culture, etc - that is seemingly expendable for the powers involved to get what they want.
13 hours ago, Anothermi said:The subtle way Jamie gets Dougal to volunteer to ride out and test the capability of the bog to support men and horses. And that he is doing it to allow Dougal to shine at what he is good at and receive proper due for it. And later how Jamie saves Dougal from himself again and Dougal finally acknowledges it—although I couldn't tell if it was resentful acknowledgement or actual appreciation.
Definitely resentful. I think he knows he just got played by his inadvertent rival.
2 hours ago, Pallas said:Yes, I think Dougal sees Jamie as saving him in a way that cock-blocks him on two fronts: in his ambition to succeed Colum as Laird Mackenzie, and also, in his ambition to be honored by Charles.
Oh my goodness! This is so perfectly stated. Jamie is everything that Dougal can never be. Dougal has always suspected this deep-down, but Jamie was diminished before, an outlaw, younger, the nephew. Jamie "knew his place" before and stayed in his lane. Not anymore. He's much more formidable now, and Dougal is now face to face with that.
13 hours ago, Anothermi said:Watching Claire in action setting up a field hospital. I think it showed that basic care was the best anyone can aim for under any war conditions. They can't do much for the worst injuries, but they can help the rest survive the less-than-deadly injuries. THAT never changes and Claire gets to work with “field medics” who don't know why she's asking them to do what she bids—but they do it.
She's in her element. She's lived this life for so long and in so many similar instances. No one questions her. They can see the knowledge, confidence, and leadership. They respect her.
10 hours ago, gingerella said:The parts I appreciated most:
Everything that was stated previously, and I'd also like to humbly submit Jamie's parting bow to Claire and her small nod in return. The way they held each other's gaze... I've watched that scene more times than I'm prepared to admit, and I feel my heart flip over in my chest every single time. Every. Single. Time.
10 hours ago, gingerella said:big battle scenes are always difficult for me to watch - my GoTs crew know my squeamishness at every season’s penultimate Episode 9 - and I felt similarly tonight, dreading the battle and the aftermath, but knowing it is integral to moving the story forward. I didn’t fast forward much, just through the middle of the battle scene, and the way they shot it was so well done, so I can at least appreciate the cinematography and the whole creeping through the mist and then BAM!
In another season of my life, I studied military history. This show does battles so beautifully. We saw it last season with the various skirmishes, and that skill was front and center here. Again, they have a way of showing the horror of it all in such a real, tangible way but also with a great deal of care and respect. (Incidentally, I think the Battle of the Bastards episode of GoT was one of the greatest battle depictions I've ever seen.)
13 hours ago, Anothermi said:Still, it is episodes like this that make me appreciate this show. No sugar coating.
A bad hour of Outlander is still better than most other things, but episodes like this one really highlight the brilliance.
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7 hours ago, gingerella said:
All the times we've thought, "Oh Claire, STFU, you're just getting into more trouble, looking back now after this episode, I hadn't seen this pattern of motivation until just now. Claire is so like Jamie in this manner, and honor and doing the right thing are who they both are. No wonder they were so drawn to one another, in times when others were running away from conflict, they weren't afraid to run into it if it meant doing the right thing.
I had faith that you would come around!! The Claire Elizabeth Beauchamp Randall Fraser fan club is always accepting new members. We don't have member jackets, per se, but we do have knit shawls with our emblem embroidered on them.
3 hours ago, Anothermi said:I was very glad to know that the author had done her research.
Diana is nothing if not thorough in her research. The books are SO dense, mainly because she researches everything to the nth degree and then edits out none of it. I have learned so much useless minutiae from reading these novels so many times, and I love it. She's a brilliant woman with multiple degrees in science fields, and it really shows in the perfect, minor details like this one.
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12 hours ago, gingerella said:
Yes this! It puts Claire more in focus as not Frank's wife or Jamie's wife, but just Claire Elizabeth Beauchamp, army war nurse who's seen some shit and then some.
So much this.
You can't help but believe that Jamie understands more about what Claire experienced in the war than Frank does/did. Jamie has been in battle. Frank, though serving in the British military, wasn't at the front. He didn't see it first-hand.
10 hours ago, Cdh20 said:If there is one thing I love about Jamie it’s that he listens to every word Claire says, & remembers it all!
And this, my friends, is how we know that Jamie was written by a woman. 🙂
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18 hours ago, gingerella said:
However, there was such a deep sense of foreboding pervading every corner of every scene, knowing that carnage is around the corner and we, the Viewer, cannae do anything to stop it, ye ken?
I feel like that has been the whole season. Because...
18 hours ago, gingerella said:They are moving ever closer to a war that will end badly and it's really difficult to watch it, even though it's a TV show, it's like watching a train wreck happen in slow motion.
That and...
18 hours ago, gingerella said:I again wished we'd not had the very first scene of S02 happen already, because it's ruining this season for me, knowing what happens.
That.
18 hours ago, gingerella said:The way the show never told us anything beyond a few army hospital scenes made these flashbacks all the more jarring ,which was a good plot device to help me understand Claire is a bit more complex than I thought.
Loved these scenes. Our girl has done and seen some things, and I feel like we forget that sometimes, especially when she was in Paris and was so hapless and anxious and not herself. Important to remember, too, that she isn't THAT far removed from WWII, just two years or so at this point. I can't imagine just coming out of a horrific, all-encompassing event like that, only to be thrust right back into one that will be just as horrific, all-encompassing, and downright bloody. And to know it is going to happen. And to know first-hand, not just the historical context, but the actual first-hand knowledge of what war is really like, and to still get up in the morning and ask the other ladies to make bannocks. That woman is incredible.
19 hours ago, gingerella said:leader amongst men.
People...uber, die-hard, Obsessanach fans (I don't know ANYTHING about this kind of fandom)...do refer to him as the King of Men. And well, yeah. He is.
This episode is my 2nd favorite of the entire season. I love watching Jamie be a leader and learning more about Claire pre-Stones and sans Frank. Plus, how swoon-worthy is Jamie when he says "Commando Raid." In a season that I mostly don't like, I always make a point to watch this one on repeat.
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1 hour ago, Beeyago said:
but has there been any speculation on what the title of this book could mean
I've been reading the "Daily Lines" for this book for awhile now, but I haven't seen anything in there that directly related to the title. Not to spoil you too much to the later books in the series, but Claire has several bee-gums in her garden. An incident happens involving the bees in Book 6 and it stays with her. Also, she really loves her bee hives.
I'm trying not to think it means that she's gone somewhere, like somewhere in the future, because I won't appreciate that so much.
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3 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:
Annnd, we have an official date from Diana Gabaldon's social media
Annnnddddd, I'm adding that week to my Outlook calendar as "Out of Office"!!
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12 hours ago, Cdh20 said:13 hours ago, Anothermi said:
Now, Jamie and Jenny's father would have been in his 40s when he died, but Simon—the new heir of Lovet's lands and title—looks very young. Probably not yet 20 years old. And I think there was a comment-in-passing that Lady Lovat was still alive, but she hates her husband, so I wonder if Simon is also an acknowledged bastard? Or perhaps there was a short detent in her hate—long enough to conceive a child?
I think Beaufort Castle is the one Lovat still lives in, & they mentioned something about him having had a bunch of wives.
I think Simon is the only legitimate heir. Lord Lovat recognizes or acknowledges the various children he has sired, if you will, but Young Simon is the only male that came from a marriage.
12 hours ago, Cdh20 said:I caught tears in both their eyes & Jenny said something about “ you know how it is” , which I took as her acknowledging Claire losing the baby but not wanting to actually say anything.
2 hours ago, Pallas said:She did. Jenny was talking about the open, unwary way she would speak to her baby when alone, "Or before they were born. As you know," with a nod to Claire, who swallows and nods back.
Oh, yes! You're right. Nice catches.
2 hours ago, Pallas said:Why would Charles use Jamie's name to rally the clans, rather than that of a more influential Jacobite Laird? And why risk alienating his supposed supporter by the forgery?
Jamie's real asset to Charles is that he is Lord Lovat's grandson. He could potentially gain Lovat's support for Charles, as he tried to do with the trip to Beaufort Castle and was marginally successful. My take is also that Charles is too egotistical and has his own head so far up his own ass that he wouldn't realize that he could potentially alienate a supposed ally with the forgery.
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5 hours ago, gingerella said:
I think the show runners fucked up by starting this season off with Claire going back to her own time.
Hear hear!! Really set a tone of gloom and dread for the whole season.
5 hours ago, gingerella said:Okay, the first scene with everyone back together at Lallybroch was heartening
I want more of them at Lallybroch, just being happy and healing and loving and fabulously attractive in their woolen homespun.
5 hours ago, gingerella said:And while Jamie trying to scare him off with a La Dame Blanche warning was clever in one way, in another I kept wondering why they were playing up the white magic witch thing so much because, ummm, witches trial not that long ago, Claire...?
Yeah not a fan of the whole white witch sub-plot in this one. Have we learned nothing here?
5 hours ago, gingerella said:Which brings me to Leery, goddamn it to hell Leery. I HATE HER. Did I mention that enough last season? If not, just so you know, I hate her so much that I refuse to spell her name correctly because she's a leery bitch so Leery it is now.
Ha! I love this, so I'm tagging along with it. I always try to be faithful to the culture and spell things correctly, but she doesn't deserve my effort.
5 hours ago, gingerella said:psycho bunny boiling bitch
PREACH!!!
5 hours ago, gingerella said:BPC knows how to exploit people around him rather deftly, backing them into corners which they cannot get out of.
He comes across to me as incredibly entitled. Well, of course, Jamie would want to fight for him because he believes EVERYONE wants to fight for him. Ah, to be royal. Even an exiled royal.
5 hours ago, gingerella said:The scene with Jamie talking to the new baby as if they were having a conversation, that was so painful and yet so endearing, as if we didn't have enough to endear a Viewer to James Alexander Malcolm MacKenzie Fraser already... But it was so odd that Jenny didn't acknowledge the loss of their bairn in that exchange, a missed opportunity.
Yeah, this seemed a little insensitive. She knew Claire was pregnant because she sent those spoons, right? She did know the spoons were a baby gift? I believe so, and if that was the case, she would surely realize that the baby was lost because they didn't return to Scotland with one, even if they didn't convey to her specifically what happened. She could have at least thrown in a "Someday, he'll talk to your bairn like that" or some kind of soothing comment.
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This episode was so powerful and moving. The first guest was incredible, and I would gladly watch hours of that conversation with him detailing the battle. When he spoke of the Highlanders reciting their ancestry before they charged into battle, wow...the emotions.
Caisteal Dhuin!
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9 hours ago, Pallas said:
And I appreciate this, and what you wrote below, about Claire's taking on the fault. You have my heartfelt sympathy.
6 hours ago, gingerella said:my heart goes out to you, sincerely. Although not uncommon, miscarriage is treated so weirdly, at least in the US, more like "oh well, let's move on" and there is not much social construct for grieving such losses, which is surprising given the frequency.
Thank you both. I appreciate that so much. It was several years ago, and I've had two other babes since then. Miscarriage is treated so differently here, almost as though it is inappropriate to talk about. I had already delivered a healthy, thriving child at that point, and I knew nothing about miscarriage. As a result, I assumed because I already had a baby, I was in the clear and everything would be fine. It wasn't fine. And the treatment, both medically and emotionally, during and after the fact were awful. The sentiment among the doctor and nurses really was just move on and have another one. We never discussed it with our friends and family. We just moved on like we were supposed to.
6 hours ago, gingerella said:I also wanted to say that I didn't mean that Claire was responsible for her miscarriage per se
I'm so sorry if I implied that I thought you did. I didn't think that at all. Your comments didn't crush me - Claire's confession that it was her fault hurts my heart.
7 hours ago, Anothermi said:But why the show gave her that drastic personality swap is a mystery to me.
I am hesitantly willing for Claire to make mistakes in the future, just not personality changing ones.
I like to think that they are showing us where Claire is comfortable and where she is not. For all her crazy upbringing, she does not adjust well to certain situations. Unlike Jamie, she can't just hop in and read the room. If that isn't what the showrunners were going for, then I'm just as confused as you are!
7 hours ago, Anothermi said:Mere Hildegarde: This is Father Laurentin. It is customary to perform an unction of the sick, my child. It has been several days now. Your fever is very high. It is wise to prepare the soul.
Claire: I need my husband.
Mere Hildegarde: I'm sorry, ma chère, there has been no word.
Claire: My sins are all I have left.
So poignant.This exchange breaks me. I cannot imagine going through all of that alone. No one to hold your hand, smooth your hair, dry your tears. Not only had she lost her child, she was lying there in peurperal fever, near death. And no Jamie. Gah, I can't even consider it. It would have been so easy to simply let go and let it consume her.
And it also makes me so sad to think that there was nothing they could do for her. The number of women who had to have lain in similar situations for centuries boggles my mind. Women truly are warriors.
4 hours ago, Cdh20 said:Also I wish we did not see Fergus being raped, or better yet, this should have been an attempted rape, which would have brought on the same result as far as Jamie is concerned.
Oh goodness, SAME! It didn't need to happen and certainly didn't need to be seen. We all know this is fiction, but that was a child actor portraying this.
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On 4/10/2021 at 1:58 AM, Anothermi said:
I really do appreciate that this show gives us the "hidden" reality of women in history. The birth scene, the fact that women were as impacted by a rape, or the loss of a child as in present times. It's not glossed over and hand waved away.
This is a huge selling point of the show, for me anyway. In how many other shows have we seen a sexual experience from a female gaze? How many other shows are able to both accurately, yet sensitively portray things like the frightening (f-ing terrifying) reality of childbirth in those times, as well as the regularity, yet heartbreaking truth of miscarriage.
This was my first time re-watching this episode because I just can't with this one. When have I ever seen a woman losing her child depicted so accurately? So graphic, so heartbreaking, so flat-out messy, and so true. Like many other women, I've lived this, and the portrayal here is honest and sensitive. I appreciate this show so much for that.
On 4/10/2021 at 1:58 AM, Anothermi said:Claire stops being a caricature of a strong woman and becomes real one.
For me, the Claire we've seen so far this season has lost herself after she seemingly found herself after going through the stones last season. In many parts of the Paris storyline, I didn't recognize her and she didn't seem to recognize herself.
19 hours ago, gingerella said:I find myself still taking the show runners to task over showing child rape, which was really unnecessary. There are so many ways we could have gotten the point without as much detail. It really feels like the Viewer was violated as well. I know that some might say that is the point, but I don't think it's needed.
Completely agree. Violence on children is off-limits, as far as I'm concerned.
19 hours ago, gingerella said:Also, I was a bit confounded and confused when Raymond was seemingly sick immediately from the potion, but seemed to immediately recover.
Ha! This made me think of The Princess Bride and the iocane powder scene. Maybe he's slowly been tippling the cascara and building a tolerance for it?
19 hours ago, gingerella said:I also was having a difficult time during the entire time Claire was at the King's palace because she's just lost her baby and yet it seems like she's fine, so fine in fact that she can allow the King to use her for sex. I wish we'd seen some of her grappling with the loss of Faith, instead of just seeing her come home and be upset in one scene.
When she tells Mother Hildergarde that it'll "just be one more thing that [she's] lost in Paris," I took that to mean a shut-down of emotions, a resignation of her feelings, what's happened, and the circumstances. This is just one more thing she has to do and a burden she will add to the load she is carrying. I also got the sense that she had been in the hospital for some time and that a few weeks had transpired before she learned from Fergus what really happened. I'm hoping so anyway because ouch and eww and no, otherwise.
19 hours ago, gingerella said:Seriously, with all the amazing costuming they do on this show, that was the best beard they could come up with?
I have so much to say about this because...ugh....and yet I can't because unsulliness and such. Let's just say, Jamie's hair is a long-time topic of conversation on these boards and others.
19 hours ago, gingerella said:What I liked about this scene was the flashbacks to Claire holding Faith (this show uses the flashback to masterful effect IMO, similar to The Wedding), and what that did to her, that ripped her guts out, and yet she finally admits that something tragic and awful was her fault and her fault alone.
Crushed me. In a vast majority of miscarriages, it is never the mother's (or anyone's) fault. It's just the body's way of responding to something that isn't quite right, so it always hurts me to see women blame themselves for it. And I certainly did. Maybe if I hadn't worked so much, stayed off my feet more, taken better care of myself...on and on. But it isn't anyone's fault, it just happens, and that is incredibly difficult to accept. Women, we always try to care for things and fix things, and she couldn't fix this.
In terms of creating a stressful situation, trying to do something they really had no ability or business to do, being demanding, being unempathetic, asking the unthinkable of your husband, yeah...there's some blame there. But hindsight is 20/20 and everything is easier to analyze and solve after the fact. When you're in it, you feel like you are doing the right thing, the best thing, otherwise you wouldn't do it. So yeah, I forgive you, too, Claire.
19 hours ago, Anothermi said:Louis IS the law and all powerful. But he takes that power for granted and abuses it. He's bored.
This is a great observation. It's just the expectation that he would do this. It is what is done, protocol, if you will. He didn't even finish, so it wasn't like it was for pleasure. It was like putting a punctuation mark on the sentence. It is what you do to end the transaction.
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22 hours ago, Pallas said:
The story even absolves Claire of having made matrimonial vows to Frank, by having their wedding be a civil registration rather than the religious ceremony that Jamie insisted upon.
17 hours ago, gingerella said:Jamie, OTOH, insisted on a church wedding because he was all in for the religious/spiritual union of himself and Claire as truly husband and wife in the ways that matter most, even today. And in addition to that,, he also has the 'Blood of my Blood' Scottish clans ceremony, which to me binds them on an even deeper level because that is such a primal forever-feeling ceremony.
This is really interesting. I didn't know that. My parents opted for a Courthouse wedding, and they've never seemed less married to me than other couples who had a religious service, but I love the points you both made. J&C not only have a deeper relationship, but they've been bond deeper, as well.
23 hours ago, Pallas said:Jamie wouldn't know self-interest if lashed him on the back. Jamie is the man who, though wounded, took a beating for a girl whose name he couldn't spell, to spare her. Jamie is the man who wouldn't leave behind the man who blackmailed him into the raid that got him captured again. Jamie is the man who felt deeply shamed for punishing Claire only when, but the moment when, he understood that she'd been trying to return to her first husband. That man: that's who Claire chose.
I feel this is a fine time to further reiterate my strong belief that Jamie>Frank. Thank you for this opportunity.
22 hours ago, Pallas said:it has Claire make an argument that's crudely instrumental: you owe me, mister.
Which really circles back around to points that have been made over the last few episodes that the writing this season is a little flimsy in spots.
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28 minutes ago, Cdh20 said:
Claire’s capes alone are worth a French rewatch!
Ok, the clothes are fab, but I expect no less from the French.
16 minutes ago, gingerella said:But it couldn't be Murtagh because by this time wasn't he off to Portugal to sell Madeira back to the mother land?!?
Ah! Right you are! Further proof that Jamie went back to the house to get it, I suppose.
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3 hours ago, Cdh20 said:
You’ve been reading & rereading & not rewatching? Wth?
I rewatch, too, just not this group of episodes.
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1 hour ago, Beeyago said:
I’m not a fan and have done no rewatches of them.
This is my first time rewatching these, and yeah...definitely remember now why I don't rewatch these.
33 minutes ago, gingerella said:See, now THIS makes a helluva lot more sense than what we were shown!
If I recall (in)correctly, Jamie doesn't leave with his sword when he and Fergus go to Madame's House of Jollies, so unless Murtaugh...aka the most sensible person in the whole city...comes back to get it, Jamie can't fight with it at the duel.
36 minutes ago, gingerella said:I wonder, is all this missing exposition actually in the books but it was omitted from the Show, or is it also missing in the books (NOTE: I do not want to know what, just IF it exists!)?
In some instances, yes, in some others, no.
37 minutes ago, gingerella said:Hey, I'm trying here...
Trying to make a good person out of BJR will get you nowhere! Just ask Claire - it got her punched in the guts!
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18 hours ago, gingerella said:
I am growing weary AF at Jamie and Claire getting into trouble nearly every goddamned episode.
Yes, it is exhausting. Paris is exhausting.
18 hours ago, gingerella said:The bits that get added to the 'don't make much sense' column:
ALL. OF. THIS.
18 hours ago, gingerella said:Claire is told that Jamie is at Madame Elise's yes, yet she goes to the woods outside the city, and presumably that is also Madame Elise's? Yet we always see scenes at ME's as being in the city itself so this makes zero sense.
I believe, either Suzette or Magnus tells Claire that Jamie has gone to the Bois de Boulogne, after explaining what happened when Jamie went to ME to clear up BPC's debts. There's a lot of confusing dialogue in this scene, and I watch while running which isn't the most reliable way to go about these things.
18 hours ago, gingerella said:Oh and this WTF pearl of a moment: Jamie says Murtagh is off to Portugal to sell the wine they stole from St. G, but wasn't it Madeira they were buying? And isn't Madeira made IN Portugal? So why would Murtagh go to Portugal to sell wine that was, yanno, MADE in fucking Portugal?!? Jesus H Roosevelt Christ!
And this made me spit coffee on myself. For real. Would have made more sense if he had gone back to Scotland, England, anywhere else.
18 hours ago, gingerella said:Are we to believe that such a profound argument between these two is magically quelled over night?
18 hours ago, gingerella said:When Jamie finally tells Murtagh about Claire's story, I wish we could have heard it because it had to be good stuff, but I did appreciate that what little snippets we did hear were all in Gaelic, which makes perfect sense in telling such a fantastical tale.
A major irritation of mine about this entire story is that SO much important dialogue happens "off screen." We saw it with The Wedding, when we didn't get to hear Jamie tell Claire about his family. We don't get to hear/see the apparent reconciliation of J&C after the "Don't Touch Me!" and you KNOW that would have been good, because they have such intense, incredible dialogue, and sadly, we don't get to hear Jamie tell Murtaugh about Claire. I don't even care if it had been in Gaelic, I want to hear what he said and what he told him to explain it (and then have someone translate it for obvs.)
18 hours ago, gingerella said:wouldn't Claire know that this is a bad sign?
Speaking from personal experience, you know it is a bad sign and yet you don't want to or can't allow yourself to believe it.
18 hours ago, gingerella said:If I am to forget about the note Jamie left, which assumes he left knowing he was going to duel BJR despite the Story telling us that he was needed at ME's to help with a situation with BPC refusing to pay his bill
In my head, the timeline is -
1. Message from ME to go pay BPC's debt.
2. Jamie leaves with Fergus.
3. Apparent confrontation with fuckface Randall.
4. Jamie returns home, gets sword, takes off brace, writes note.
5. Jamie goes to the duel.
6. Claire comes home, finds note, leaves the house.
Oof, this one was a lot to digest. I feel like I need puppies and chocolate.
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9 hours ago, singsong said:
I have really enjoyed this show, but many times I felt like it could have had longer episodes. I enjoy the banter, but I also enjoy the stories they find along the way, and I felt this episode in particular was too quick with the particulars.
Yes, absolutely. It was almost confusing because it jumped around so much.
15 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:I did enjoy seeing tartan being made but it would have been nice to have them talk about some of the different patterns and colors of a few clans, like maybe choose a clan with several different tartan variations and demonstrate different ways of wearing them.
Yes to this. Graham even mentions that the MacTavish clan had a tartan for all different types of activities. Sounds fun. What were they? Why did they need different patterns?
I also thought there were way too many Outlander call backs in this episode. I love the show, but I'm not stupid. I don't need you to provide me with the example and basically humble brag about the research that goes into the show.
I do want to have a dram or 5 with Sara Fraser. She seemed like a lot of fun and the stories she'd likely tell...it would be a good time.
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6 hours ago, gingerella said:
The thing that resonated with me about your comment @SassAndSnacks, is that in this story, Jamie reacts more like the traditional woman's role, and Claire acts more like the traditional man's role with regards to how they express their affection and emotion towards one another. Jaime has been, from the wedding night onward, much more open, direct, and romantic with how he expresses himself to Claire. Claire, on the other hand, has always reacted to his declarations, his words of affection, and how he expresses his most difficult emotional turmoil. These conversations are my favorite exchanges in this story thus far, and they are what is so captivating about this story, this couple. And yet after reading your above comment I realized that it is Jaime that nearly, if not always initiates these exchanges, not Claire. Claire is nearly, if not always the recipient of these exchanges and she reacts to them, but does not seem to initiate them. I'm thinking of Jaime's "Mo neigheon donn", his "When you kissed me like that", his "like hiding naked behind a blade of grass", and so on. When Claire initiates an exchange it's usually more like a bull in a china shop, and that is the traditional role usually reserved for the man in conversations between couples in stories, is it not? So it's interesting that our male protagonist is the more emotionally intelligent partner, and our female protagonist is the more gut reactive partner in this story...
Oh, this IS so interesting! Though he is younger and more "inexperienced," I think he does know more and understand more about love. He came from a loving family, he was close with his parents, especially his father, and Jenny. The extended MacKenzies and Frasers may have some questionable internal dynamics, but his immediate family seems to have been very emotive and affectionate. We don't really know that about Claire. Was her Uncle affectionate with her? Did he have a partner from which she could witness interactions? Where and from whom did she learn about relationships? We've already seen Frank and her struggle to communicate and emote to each other, falling back to sex as a means of communicating and feeling (not that you don't feel plenty when doing that but...) She is more sexually experienced than Jamie, but does she have more relationship experience? And not just romantic relationships, but the most formative ones between family and friends? From what we've seen, Jamie had the more stable, comfortable life surrounded by a loving family and friends growing up and pre-BJR than Claire did.
And yes, I hang on every word of these conversations.
6 hours ago, gingerella said:The disappointment, the disillusionment, the disgust, that his own wife would ask this of him when she knows what it did/and continues to do to him as a man, as a husband, as a human being, that was gutting to watch.
6 hours ago, Cdh20 said:this episode had everyone questioning how much she loves Jamie, I mean how could she ask that of him?
It is absolutely shocking and horrific. I'm not here for the time travel aspect, so I only have a slight care for the loop that if she isn't with Frank, she doesn't go to Inverness, doesn't go through the stones, and doesn't meet Jamie. But why should that matter now? By the time it happens, she'll be long gone. She's with Jamie NOW. It isn't as though she's going to go POOF in 9 months when Frank's ancestor isn't conceived.
Besides, who cares about Frank?!?!?! (Which I yelled at Claire at various points through this episode.)
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Obviously, I love this story and I adore this show, so not only am I clearly willing to suspend reality and hand-wave A LOT of details in the plot, but I'm also quite good at it to have kept up with 8+ books and 5+ seasons...
But, this story, this episode, and this Claire was tough even for me to take.
The way she treats Mary and Alex, no.
The way she treats Murtaugh, nope.
The way she treats Frank's future, get out.
The way she treats Jamie, how f-ing dare you, Claire?!
Claire isn't stupid, nor is she unfeeling, nor is she vicious. So, for me, her time in Paris is kind of a crazy departure from who we've established her to be. And this where some of the poorest writing comes in, both in the show and the source material. None of this makes any sense. I know this is no book talk and such, but in several important instances, the show writing improves upon a storyline in the book. This isn't one of them.
I'd like to think that this Claire is done intentionally to show how out of her element she is, but I that isn't clear to me from the what I've seen.
8 hours ago, Anothermi said:It doesn't do Claire any favours to see she is a woman with her own mind and then have her blunder around messing up so many things and causing pain and danger to those around her. It is reminiscent of the plucky-damsel-who-always-trips-and-falls-when-being-chased-by-bad-guys trope.
Precisely this. You said it better!
16 hours ago, gingerella said:First, Claire's entire justification is utter hog bollocks! Instead of whinging on about how she has to ensure Frank's birth 'because he has done nothing wrong in all of this', why the fuck doesn't she state the obvious, which is, "Frank has to be born so that we can be married, go on honeymoon to Inverness, and enable me to be at the Stones to come to you, without him none of US happens!" duh. Duh. DUH. D.U.H. It's so obvious and it is a justification that Jamie would likely have been able to get his head around because he loves Claire so much that the thought of them never happening would surely make him see he just has to wait a wee bit before offing Randall. I see it. I'm sure other viewers see it. So why didn't the show writers see this?!?
Yes, stupid writing. It makes no sense and is completely counter to what we know about Jamie, and Claire, for that matter. Jamie is intelligent and reasonable. He would absolutely understand this argument.
16 hours ago, gingerella said:I wondered how on earth Jenny was able to safely send such apparently precious cargo to France, and why on earth would Jamie have valuable family heirlooms shipped there, and risk their loss to theft, when he knows he is going to be going back to Scotland? Put this in the 'makes zero sense' column.
Yes, this made me roll my eyes. It felt like a contrivance to give Jamie and Claire a moment to talk about the baby. They could have just sat and talked about the baby. Or Jamie could have bought the spoons in Paris. Or, if the family heirloom component was so important, they could have had Jared leave the spoons for them.
8 hours ago, gingerella said:So Analiese is the young woman who comes very enthusiastically up to Jaime the first time they are at Versailles and she clearly acts very familiar with him, acting like they were once intimate, or as intimate as one can be considering Jaime thought sex was done the back way, like horses... She says in that first meeting to Claire, “did he win you with jewels” or something vapid like that, and then this time she keeps harping on how reckless and carefree Jaime used to be, and how he was a boy and now Claire has made him into a boring man, you know, with responsibilities and a job and such like (I like when Jaime says that, hehe!). She’s goading Claire and I think it’s to try to make Claire ask her what her relationship with Jaime was about, but Claire’s not falling not her trap so she keeps hammering on, annoying Claire. I loathe her as much as I loath Leery.
What's the point of Analiese in the grand scheme of things? Is she intended to widen the wedge between Jamie and Claire, further complicate their already strained relationship? Is she just some pretty petty foil? Is she supposed to be merely an insipid French courtier? Right now, she's annoying.
8 hours ago, gingerella said:The fact that she threw that at him was really harsh and seemed out of character for her. Im also still surprised that she’d care that much about Frank being born. If she wanted to stay with Jaime and never go back to Frank, it seems like she’d die naturally in the 1700s, before any issue of Frank being born happened. Then again, I’m not a time traveler aficionado.
This is an interesting point. To me, the "future" (Claire's past) would almost seen like it isn't a possibility, it isn't a reality. She plans on staying, so why does Frank being born have any bearing on her new future? (But then I have to remind myself that she apparently loved him (blech) and so I guess she would want him to have a chance to be alive.)
Finally, Jamie's final words..."Don't touch me, Claire." Yeah, they really speak to the whole episode.
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5 hours ago, gingerella said:
Jamie said he didn't 'do' anything with her, so I believe him, he's never lied that we know of to Claire and he seems to hold honesty between them as sacred, so I can forgive him this transgression because he was trying to get back to Claire, physically, without continually recoiling in horror from her mid-act. I think it reinforces for me just how far he will go to always make things right with Claire.
I believe him, too. I dinna like the thought of my literary boyfriend frequenting brothels, ye ken?
Also, how dare you have such a reasonable assessment that makes me reconsider my original feelings?!?!
5 hours ago, gingerella said:And so I forgave him...the truth is, I already forgave him for this and anything else he could do in the future of A Show because this was no choice, this was falling in love with this character and his story...
And you went there, and now I'm a puddle.
5 hours ago, Cdh20 said:I always think of it as Claire & Jamie’s story
Yes, it's their story, and the show does a good job of showing it through their eyes jointly, as opposed to the books where it is mainly Claire's viewpoint.
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So, @gingerella, you brought up so many great points and questions with this episode, but I canna speak to them without being spoilery, for the most part.
And for the sake of full disclosure on my part, I'm not a big fan of intrigues, plots, conspiracies, political machinations etc. so J&C's whole scheme here really wears on me, and it seems to be the sole focus of the show at this point, and I just don't care for it. Thus, if I seem a little grumpy in my responses here its because I don't like this plot. But I do like Jamie and Claire and Murtaugh, and I will keep chugging long for their sake.
2 hours ago, gingerella said:I totally get why Claire felt angry about the bite marks, but the guy has been having visions of his torture every time he attempts to make love to his wife, so trying things out to see how far he can go without having those visions, and doing so with a prostitute seemed to make sense to me - it has to be even more traumatic to think that every time you try to have sex with your wife you have to pull away in horror because you're having a flashback to this horrible torture you endured. I get it, he wanted to see if he was ready to be with Claire and not have to put her through that again.
I appreciate your comment here, and it made me think twice about my previously established feelings with this scene and Jamie's frequenting of Maison Elise. Alas, I still f-ing HATE this entire scene and Jamie's behavior. (However, you did make me feel a wee bit guilty over my feelings because Jamie is coping, and this is how he is fighting to get this piece of himself back.)
A positive on this scene, the dialogue within and the emotion behind their fights are so powerful and so well done.
3 hours ago, gingerella said:Emotionally, when he is explaining how it felt to be raped and tortured, I felt gutted listening to that. The way he explains that he felt naked with nowhere to hide, like he was trying to hide behind a blade of grass, that was so poignant and so evocative. And then after they reunite and he tells her she's made him a lean-to to now, instead of a blade of grass... That is the sort of exchange that hooked me on this Show. I want more of that, and less of the slapstick Benny Hill fighting that went on after Mary and Alex were found downstairs.
Yes to this. This dialogue was taken directly from the source material and it is so perfectly delivered here. It keeps me hanging on through all of this far-fetched political bs. This show has these amazing moments of emotional brilliance.
Finally, we should give props to Andrew Gower for being so absolutely loathsome, sniveling, and annoying as BPC.
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Honestly, I would watch hours of outtakes of this show, especially if it involved multiple scenes of Graham tricking Sam into punching himself in his own balls. Also, is it just bred into Scots that they can rock a cable knit? American men don't look that good in knits. I felt like I was back in college hanging out with all of my guy friends, drinking, and listening to them say hilariously inappropriate things to each other. Ahhhh...
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S02.E12: The Hail Mary
in Outlander
This is a great analogy.
You called it episodes ago!! Bravo!
These are all really strong points, and I agree the show could have/should have done more here with these two. I do think we've seen from last season until now that they've been setting up and proving that Jamie is the better and preferred future leader of the Clan. For Colum to throw it right out there like that in front of Dougal, that Jamie should be the leader and that Jamie should be Hamish's guardian, that was cold. And the look on Jamie's face like "Shit, we don't have time for this..."
The exchange between Dougal and Colum was really powerful and heartbreaking, and you could really feel Dougal losing whatever pieces of internal control he had left. The disappoint he's dealing with right now - he's starving, the war isn't looking so good, BPC is a disappointment, he's questioning his beliefs, he can't be his own child's guardian, Colum rubbed his nose in his shortcomings yet again, Jamie is still better, and so on and so on. I feel for him.
Oh yes, you said it better than I did.
My heart hurt for Jamie throughout this entire episode. The weight on him is just growing heavier and heavier, and no matter what he does, there is no stopping what is about to happen. Murtaugh's words, yes...hard to swallow.