Butless

Its just something i noticed reading through SO, and it strikes me as ...fake, I guess. Im well aware as us just about nearly everyone that women have the capacity to be villainous irl. If this book had a more experienced hand, maybe it wouldnt come off as a fairytale, and speak to some of the truths we already know, irl. I dunno. Maybe she wanted it to be this way, but she couldnt quite pull it off. It is a very thin book, but I dont think Ill pick up another of her books. I do like the show though. Mainly for the atmosphere and acting. The mother killing by MBP has been done to death before this. And of course you couldnt pick a more gendered affliction for a woman villain. Plot holes are not anything Flynn seems to care about much. But some of the writing is awful. Most of what John says sounds like bad crime fiction, not what an 18 year old would say. That stupid trite metaphor that excheerleader Becca is given to say. About how they were "all shiny on the outside..." And cherry pits arent dark, theyre lightcolored. That passage just reeks of someone trying to write something profound there and they couldnt jibe the metaphor of shiny to dark inside, but insisted on using a nonsensical metaphor because they had written the cherry theme through the rest of the episode. I do love Amma wailing the implausible line, "I can never be as good as someone dead!", though, because the delivery was so fun. That southern belle martyr act. Flynn's been gathering steam since Gone Girl, the movie for sure (2014), and is paling around with the stars, getting projects galore. The mediocre always seem to rise to the top.

I started reading SO, and I've got to say that I find Gillian Flynn off-putting. There is just something a little too contrived about her and how she writes. I never read any of her other books. I started the Dark Places movie (crappy). And I finally watched Gone Girl. Before this, I'd known her as the author of the essay on "the Cool Girl." While that essay was on the nose, I dont know that she herself doesnt want to be seen as the cool girl. It's the thing that was off-putting about her character Camille, too. Unlike what's been said about her characters, I don't look for a sympathetic person in book or film. It doesnt matter, if its written and acted well, and it speaks some truth. I feel that Flynn has gone out of her way with the disingenuous proclamations that it's time that women be seen as villains, and not goody-goody, inherently good characters. That's pretty much crap, and she should know better because she was the head writer at the biggest entertainment reporting magazine, and knew full well the kinds of villains that were pumped out in films and books. (Ultimately, her Amy character was just another of them.) In shitting on the "cool girls," Flynn herself puts herself above them. She loves telling anybody about how 'dark' and edgy she is. How is that different from goth kids looking for attention? I like some of those things she does too, and maybe worse, but so what? Im a complex person, like anyone else. How is her writing not catering to a male audience, exactly? The men in SO are all victims of some sort. Duped, manipulated, bullied by women. I appreciate what she's done to show a Nice Guy (Richard) onscreen, but the scales arent exactly tipped anywhere near even in this little world, where all of the women are various shades of wicked. Even the children who are victims, Ann & Natalie. They are described as "a cunt" by Camille, and both as viscioous biters, pokers out of eyes... thing so farfetched that when these descriptions are paired with John's lighthearted memories of Nat, etc, seem ridiculous. When its that unbalanced, it certainly does look like she's sidling up to men, saying all the things some of the worst of them say about women, and then expecting to be seen as 'special,' not like 'those other bitches.' Because she's just telling the truth about women, maaan. She's just a cool girl who grew up to resent younger cool girls, imo. She seems weirdly preoccupied with teenage boys, usually with dark hair. And not just teenage boys, but their relationships with random older women (lets say around 30ish). I thought that was a one-off in SO, but not so, as it shows up in Dark Places, too. I also find that she sexualizes the very youthfulness of the 18 year old John Keene in her book. Describing the 'downy' hairs on him, etc, in a uncomfortable way. Uncomfortable not because she wants me to feel that way, because her writing is pretty flat and is so withholding that I find it doesnt carry out all of the themes it brings up. Uncomfortable because she seems to be reveling in the teenage world in an unwholesome way. Like she's one of the unpopular kids who becomes a teacher, so they can (have control over) be looked up to, finally, by the popular kids in their classes/school. The fact that she lists VC Andrews books as a big influence (and how it can bee seen so much in SO) just tells me that she gets off on the teen psychodrama incestual crap that those books are. They are the shallowest of characters written into them, and everyone's a put upon drama-victim in some sexually restrictive landscape of who knows what era. I remember flipping through my sister's books as a teenager myself and thinking what crappy writing and character/plot these consisted of. All the completely evil villains were older women, too, like Adora. The character of Camille is sort of like Flynn walked into a VC Andrews book and is just begging the teenagers to like and accept her as cool, a lot of the time. Its no stretch that she has her sleep with one. The incestuous play with Amma. Feeling complimented by a 13-17 year old boy. And Flynn, rather than putting some woman villainy on display, paints all women and girls as either villainous or cruel or lame. Leaving her one cool girl character as a victim. But one who looks cool being a victim. One who's beautiful (the most beautiful woman he's ever seen, says poor, duped Richard). One who has such funny, witty comebacks (like telling Ashley to tell her former classmate, who's "got fat", 'Hi from (her). And to eat well and exercise'). One who's smug rather than genuine in her dealings with Richard, for example. Or teenage-rebellious, by flipping off her stepdad, instead of speaking some truth to him, regardless of how he might take it. As I was reading through it, Im noticing theres no real women in this book. It's just a smorgasbord of every bad thing you can ascribe as being a traditionally 'feminine trait/vice' put onto these women characters. Gossipy bitches? Check. Aged jealous beauty queens? Check. Mean girl cheerleaders? Vicious little girls? Check, etc. I got to the point where Camille is in Ann's house and sits down to interview the parents. Only she wishes the mother would just disappear. She just wants to talk to the father. She totally eviscerates this womans character in her mind after seeing her for 1 min. Not even seeing her through a filter of sympathy. Just cant stand her in the most nasty way. [Even better than that, she does the same thing to the kids as she sees them , walking up to the house. The worst offender to Camille/Flynn is the little boy who she points out is bland and fat, and so a nothing destined to become even more of a nothing. Flynn gives this treatment to another little girl, too, upon a glance. She , we are told, is the fat middle child, who is 'destined for a life full of needy sex', etc. (So I guess if youre fat, she's an equal opportunity offender. Somehow that seems the opposite of progress.) ] Its not that this is seen as Camille was being so mean, and I dont want women to be mean. Its that this is just another Flynn characterization of women as unrelentingly shitty. The father, we are shown, has some redemptive things about him. Unlike the movie, he says he doesnt really mean he wished his daughter was killed rather than raped, etc. But the mother is a waste of space, just like all the other women. Who arent teenagers. Even Amma's given an anti-heroic stance. Despite saying the right things, and depicting some of them, imo, Flynn seems like she shakes out in the end, to be fairly misogynist.

I've never heard of that being done before , irl; so that was an odd comment. Why not sow salt around the spot, while youre at it. And if Amma and the roller girls did it, Im going to need to know why all three have absolutely no conscience. Its one thing to kill someone. It's all too easy to do. But to sit there and pull out teeth? It's a little bit farfetched that theyd all be happy giggly girls, and not one shred of conscience between them? Thats not how it plays out irl, most of the time. I also am confused as to how we are supposed to view Ann and Natilie. I've never personally known any biters at 12 years old. I cant imagine why , reallly, they'd be biting, and not be taken to a therapist. John's explanation for Natalie was dumb. I also bit my nails at that age and probably got into some minor physical fights with siblings, and i never bit them. And she bit him hard enough to make a permanent scar. That's a pretty deep bite wound. He'd have to go to the ER and get it washed out and shots. What was he doing to justify that? He blames "the town" and says that was her only way of defending herself. It's crap writing. I think the writer and makers of this decided its not going to be a real story, despite its grittiness, but a fairy tale. Because the actor looked even older than his real age. I agree with everyone else, that had they put an 18 year old in that part, it would have been shocking and, yes, extremely "gross." And they would have lost the audience.

That little turd even looks uncannily like Carl. This character is a complete turd. John's nice to her and all she can do is stare at him and , of course, run away? Ungrateful turd. I was glad when Lucy ran after her to kick her ass, and even more glad when she shut the door on her. But then she finds that the turd returned the library book to her, and now all is forgiven? Wat?? What is this shit writing?? And of course flipfloppity Morgan has to go half across the continent to 'tell his friiiend he was right.' I mean honestly, the only thing I could ever muster up to say to any of these writers and creators of this crapfest is, 'Are you for real, bitch?" I thought June was going to come out as gay in that awkward moment between her and Maggie Grace.

June thinks John "fell in love" Laura, and she's "not Laura" and now she's worried that he wont like June? Wow; trite crap writing that doesnt make any sense, because we as viewers have only seen Dharma play exactly one persona, the only one she has in her bag of acting tricks, and Secondly...it (amazingly) sounds as if she's saying that Laura was such an alluring personality and thats why he "fell in love" with her. And! That she , as herself, has an even worse personality as Laura. I dont think that's possible! Morgan needs to knock John out and kidnap him away from this narcissistic asshole, Naomi Laura June. I love Coleman Domingo. That is the ONLY reason i will peep this show, whenever. i did like the hurricane zombies flying about. Also that a load of logs took out a bunch of them in one drop. Because there were too many of them. And im sck of seeing the same people playing the zombies, especially tha ginger with the big square head.

Omg you may have brainwashed me.

I feel like any lies to keep Adora off Camille's back are totally justified. And in a coincidental bit of timing alongside this show, that Asia Aregento sexual assault case against a 17 year old that just came out in the news, is awful. There you have a case of a woman in her late thirties who groomed a 17 year old for sex, and set up his sexual assault. A classic example of a huge power differential, she was his director and had him call her mom (and she called him son), for years, The adjectives here go beyond "gross", straight into unconscionable and revolting. Are you supposed to just sit in a sterile room and think about things? It doesnt seem like that would be helpful. I can see them not wanting you to be talking to others on the phone, maybe. A safe place to sleep is helpful, but just sitting there, or talking to other people with suicidal or cutting ideation doesnt seem helpful. Would they double people up like that? Were you locked inside those rooms? It looked like Camille cut herself just deep enough to allow herself to get admitted. I thought she did that because she was afraid of killing herself, and that is the reason why she was admitted for observation? Do they ever tell us what triggered her to commit herself?

Oh; ok. Thanks. I'll be pretty PO'ed if there is a twist from out of left field in this show, because they havent successfully shown she is an unreliable narrator, imo.

Im guessing they limit any content, like music and tv, that can trigger suicidal or cutting ideation .

Camille also lied to her boss when she said that Nat's mom gave her the Ok to go in Nat's room. But are these the things that posters are hanging their hats on when they say that Camille is an unreliable narrator? Because I dont understand that.The entire story is not from her point of view. I can understand ascribing things she says or does to being high on alcohol or drugs, but i dont get where the unreliable narrator thing is coming from, unless maybe its from the book?

There is literally no context for Richard sleeping with Ashley in this show. There is a context for Camille sleeping with John in this show.

I think youre right. I also think that Amma is a psychopath, and psychopaths frequently are highly sexual people. Its all about making them feel good, giving them a high, they use their sexuality to get what they want, or to stun their prey, or to consume them. Camille just uses her sexuality to get close to people, as much as she can.

Id have to watch it again. I think when he talks about Ann, and Camille is hypothesizing, she mentions something like, If Ann bit her sister, she might kill her, too. And I thought that was weird. It could have been exaggeration, but it sounded more like she could have possibly been leading him on to say more about it. I think it's going to get too complicated, in the finale, though, if there were two separate murders of the girls. That's probably in addition to Adora killing Marian. So , too messy to explain in an hour or less?

Thanks for articulating what I feel about the words that appears. It was mentioned somewhere in a review that it was 'poetic license', made to invoke a feelings. But I find most of the words either too obvious ("Queasy"), or too stupid, for them to invoke any other feeling but irritation. IMO, this bit of stylistic hoohah is not going to age well. And god help us if it catches on in other storytelling, due to the popularity of this show. "'Curl' on a log," should be a metaphor for something pretentious that misses the mark, and just sounds dumb. I also dont know if Ive been influenced by all of this, because instead of remembering the name of the show, Sharp Objects, I keep thinking of it as Sharper Images. Make of that what you will ;p There's a simple matter of reading comprehension fail here, in your assertion. The poster did mention a list of reasons, as were quoted in my post. But with that one statement, she stripped the context and reframed it into something it wasnt. Camille didnt use a grieving teenage boy. It's fine for someone to find the concept of sex with an 18 year old "gross" (whatever that means; its a vague term), due to your own preferences. But its disingenuous to change the context of the story into something it was not. You can still disagree with the context, as it is, but I guess if you cant articulate it beyond 'it's gross,' then you really arent explaining to anyone else why or how it's so "gross." I dont think Im the only one who finds him corrupt! i think he was written that way ;p First, I get the feeling that he was around Wind Gap all his life, and probably grew up with everyone. Jackie calles him "Billy," not sheriff. So unless he's a cousin or something, they probably knew each other before he became sheriff. Regardless, Vickery shows he knows about the "rumors" about Adora killing her daughter, as well as the fact that Jackie looked into the medical records, because he likewise knows about the nurse who questioned whether Adora was at fault. he mentions all of this to Richard, and tries to smear that nurse, who lost her job over trying to get someone to look into it. So he knew. And he chose to ignore it, I guess, so he could keep his huge schnozz up Adoras ass, and keep his position as sheriff. Im sure his reaction to Natalie was sincere. He was probably sincerely sad and upset to see a dead child. Just like Jackie was sad to see a dead Marian. But just like Jackie, he's been doing an awful lot to ignore the obvious. He's done an awful lot not to investigate anyone but who he deems outsiders; ie, the Mexican workers and John Keene. His sadness or upset at finding Natalie dead should have done the very opposite of "blinding him to investigate broader." That doesnt make any sense tht youd find a dead child and not try to get off your ass to do more to find the killer. He's sen a lot of things, like ∫b shots in signs, as you point out. And that's the problem. He should be preoccupying himself with other more important things than that. Neither of the little girls were killed by Bb gun. The only reason John was thought to be guilty, at that point, was that he cried too much, and didnt adhere to how the men of Wind Gap were supposed to, in the face of massive grief. The sheriff's a dumb narrowminded shitbag who's pointedly not investigating anyone but the sacrificial (outsider) lamb. How corrupt of a person do you have to be to railroad an 18 yr old, because youre beholden to a person like Adora, to be deemed "evil"? "Playing Kelsey" is also a sign of corruption. He needs evidence to railroad this kid, so he appeals to her stupid vanity, and tells her of she just gives him what he wants, she can be on TV. He took it several steps over the line there, and that;s how cops we deem corrupt can set the ball rolling on an innocent person. They got blood, but did Ashley also tell him that that the blood may have gotten there when she was in a fight with Natalie? I dont know why the nurse or Jackiw couldnt have called social services on Adora. At least for Amma, if it was too late for Marian. Well Jackie could have called social services on Marian, for sure. I dont knwo what could be more evil than watching a person poison a child to death , slowly. Jackie has no excuse, neither does Vickery, who seems to have known something was wrong, also, and ignored it. Whether or no he's turned a corner with noting that Amma is sick again, we'll see next Sunday night. That's a point I havent seen. But I doubt very much that it wouldnt be an eveb biggers tory byt the next person to write about John, that the journalist who originally covered the story found him to be innocent, and even slept with him. So, no; she wasnt going to be his only chance at redemption. Camille is not the only juournalist in America who can get his story out, or who would even cover him , if he went up for the murder of two little girls, o ne his own sister. John was contemplating suicide before she took him to sleep it off in the motel. So she saved him from driving his car in the lake, at that moment. if you want to be literal. But if her sleeping with John is worse in your estimation than saving his life right then, then that's your priorities, I guess. Wow; way to denigrate anyone making a living in a nonprofessional job ! She's making shit money , as it is, being a reporter on shitty newspaper that cant even afford to put her up in a hotel , motel, b&b, whatever. Look at her clothes and the car she's driving. I had no idea that people were parsing the Camille/John interlude down to the idea that it was the actual sex with him that helped heal Camille. The actual sex is not the deal. If youre hung up on just the sex, again, where is any of the context that belongs to this story? If youre only focused on his penis going into her vagina , or whatever, then youve lost the context, or maybe you dont understand it. Camille didnt need anyone to validate that she was "fuckable."That is missing the point of that scene with a bazooka. I have a few things that point to John still being the killer. 1) Where the heck does he go when they find Nat's body in the alleyway? He's in the square with Camille, Amma and her posse, just feet away from where Nat was found. When the old couple who found her starts a commotion, everyone runs to that alley, except for John. The last we see of him is a shot of the others in the alley way and the back of his head in the forefront of the frame. At that point, his sister is missing. Why wouldnt he have run over there, or someone run back over to him, to hold him back or be with him? It's never addressed at all, and that is just so weird. 2) He still only tells Camille that he never killed his sister. Doesnt mention Ann. And he really didnt like her. 3) He made up a plausible "story" for the 'why' he killed the girls. Ok; that was a story, we are to believe. But he said they pull out the hog's teeth and that there it feels good (a release) when the tooth finally pops out. That, is real. And it's what Richard said, when he did his experiment on the pig head, also. Im not saying he's the killer; just that those things left in show still lcause some doubt. But who know? I implicated Mr Lacy a while back and no one believes that, either. The piglets feeding on their momma's teats ! The fact that they are intelligent enough to know what's going on. Thry fact that they pull their fucking teeth , when they are only trying to defend themselves...jesus wept. And the utter cruelty of those asshole teenagers chasing a piglet around, throwing themselves on it. John was there, too, watching it. Mr Sensitive. I meant specifically there that it's irrelevant to say that 18 year olds shouldnt have sex, if that was one of the reasons why its considered "gross,"because they do , and they're allowed to, by law. YVMM, personally, bassed on your values and morals, for sure. But only for yourself. If youre 18 and dont think its right, then dont have sex with anyone at 18. Problem solved. You mention that Camille wasnt in a position of power over him. So it's not relevant to the story, to use an example where a woman does have power over an 18 yr old (teacher /student). That is an example of a pronounced power differential. Men,by the cultural mores alone, already have had a long and detailed edge over women when it comes to them being in positions of power. Just their physical strength alone would put the man at the very least in a kind of position of power over a woman. John is by far the stronger of him and Camille. She in fact, pushes him away from touching her, at first and says no to him touching her or looking at her arm. Personally, irl, I look at an 18 year old and to me a kiss on the cheek and a pat on the head is the furthest I would even want to go. So it get it, on a visceral level. But it doesnt serve the context of the story. That's just my personal anecdotal evidence from the 18 year olds Ive known, recently. I think the more controversial aspect is that theyve been drinking. But again, she initiated nothing but checking him into the motel, giving him water and telling him to sleep it off. She gave him good advice. You cant predict what will happen and what you will say when the cops arrest you. He needed to sleep it off. n what world would anyone encourage someone to go to the cops, drunk? That also makes you look guilty and stupid. And that seems like a willful misreading of Camille's relationship with Amma. Amma is the one who's being inappropriate. Camille has admittedly been drunk or high during a couple of these inappropriate instances, but the majority of the time, she's been sisterly to Amma. And at times, she's been overwhelmed by Amma's weird or shitty behavior. She only just met this girl. No doubt Camille's got problems, but sexualizing her sister isnt one of them. Why? Why should anyone imagine something that has no bearing on the show we're watching, at all? Why does she have to be 100% sure? No one is 100% sure of anyone else in this world. If youre married, you re not even 100% sure of your partner on everything. You know what was wrong with that sex scene? i didnt see John put on a rubber. Oh; that explains why he didnt use a rubber, then. You can tell it by their voices. Theyre very distinct, as a duo. I cant see Alan doing it any more than I can see Adora. Or either of them strong enough to fight a 10 year old child? I think they didnt do it though, mainly, because theyd be noticed anywhere. Im not sure how Adora would come together with Mr Lacy. I dont think they even talked or exchanged a look even on Calhoun Day. i do wonder though how Mr Lacy and Amma's other teachers didnt suspect something was up with Amma & Adora, after seeing how thick her med records were. If Mr Lacy is involved, I think he'd be involved in it with Amma. That exchange they had in the school breezeway was weird, and possibly hinted at something other than it was? Mrs Lacy giving him and Amma the stink eye was pretty pointed too, but who knows what that was about. So many dirty looks given in this show, and I dount theat theyre all going to be explained. I think Ann's dad didnt do it. Which could be the reason he did! But he seems even less suspect than Ashley or John. Rewatching, and there are a tons of scenes of the roller girls going by the murder site of Natalie. So much so that it looks like a motif. The 2 or 3 angels of death, on wheels. Im thinking that 3 girls could lift an other dead girl. Maybe Mr Lacy or the boys in the posse drove the car that was needed to transport the bodies? They have that golf cart, but isnt it uncovered? A body would have to be tarped and tied down in it, if there's even room for a 4th body on it.

I guess I dont know why anyone would expend energy to kiss the ass of a corrupt sheriff. Blind allegiance to authoritarians? I dont know. But the sheriff's been spreading shitty rumors about Camille, and he was never, as in never-ever, going to do anything about her being there or doing anything wrong, due to Adora and how she'd be embarrassed from it. He's a corrupt, pathetic lackey of a woman who he never even investigated, looks like, for the mysterious sickness and death of her one kid , in light of the mysterious illnesses of her next kid. Camille doesnt owe his ass anything. What's more important for Camiile, is that she make herself whole again, from the inside out. If she loses a shitty job, she can get over that. If she loses a career, too. She's a survivor who has taken the worst kinds of punishment her whole life, and she's standing on her own two feet. I really feel this fretting over her is misguided loyalty, at the least. Anyway, in light of all this, Vickery was a complete asshole for taking that shot at her. He cant arrest her, but he can slut-shame her. That was not necessary and 100% petty of him to do that to her, and I wouldnt expect anything less from a complete asshole like him. There is zero justification for him to have said it. He knows John's age, which is written on his warrant, and he is 100% sure that he is not a minor, and that Camille didnt commit statutory rape. "Fair criticism" by Vickery? Not in the least. As for a minor in that town drinking? Drug and alcohol usage is rampant in that town with the minors, and John was drinking at a bar a few seats from Richard in an earlier episode. So it's blatant hypocrisy to pin shit on Camille, He was being served at both the bars John was in before Camille even showed up to either of them. She made the right decision for her intimate well-being, in the end. Seems like some people are going way out of their way to punish the character out of a weird allegiance to authoritarianism or to Dickie or a woman owning her sexuality. There's a lot of nitpicking, to prove how mentally incompetent she is, how damaged, how bad at her job she is. Honestly, I am not sure why, considering we have seen scores and of men in roles equivalent to this, and they are not picked apart like this. PS. I took at look at reddit, and the same cesspool of incels are spreading their hatred of women there, per usual. Why would he suppress that, though? He spent all day getting progressively more sweaty, finding out this information. And dumping them in her lap like that was actually kind of nasty of him. If youre complaining of the sexualizing of young people, I think you have criticism for the author, first and foremost. I admit Im not comfortable viewing Amma as 13 and (less so) John as 18, and I didnt read the book, so I assumed they were about 16 and 20 for a long while before a couple posters mentioned their book ages. I said it before; I think the creators should have aged these characters. Im not sure what it would have hurt, story wise, to have aged everyone 3 years. It doesnt look like it would have changed anything much in the show. That said, this is a movie, and not reality. Fiction can pretty much have 18 year olds who look 30. There is some gap in reality, from a story to our real life, and it is a minor thing (heh) to get over this, for the sake of good drama. I really do not see what all the pearl clutching is, over Camille sleeping with John. This show isnt going to corrupt the minds of the masses of 28-35 yr old women out there to sleep with 18 year olds. This fictional story has a context. When you strip context out of everything, the world is black and white, good and bad. Which is bullshit in any world, real or fictional. The double standard argument that a man who slept with a 18 year old would be gross, and so a woman should be too, is in bad faith. There are power differentials already set up, thanks to our culture, that make these unequal comparisons from the start. At the root of why it's bad, is a power differential between the partners, where someone is getting played; coerced; groomed. None of those things were at play in this story between Camille and John. She checked him in, gave him a bottle of water and told him to sleep it off. John was the one who initiated everything. And at 18, he is not too young to have sex. If youre worried about the law, the law OKed John to have sex too. Camille didnt lead John on. John didnt force Camille, or promise her anything ... the consternation and disgust over this point in the story is overwrought and irrelevant. With this one sentence, you stripped away all context from the of the story. You stripped away all of John's agency. And you put all the blame on Camille. Camille didnt use John , which is how you word the exchange between them. If you have a problem with 18 yr olds, of whichever gender, having sex, than I guess that is your own personal moral code. Because 18 year old have always had sex, and always will. That's why the age of consent isnt older than 18 anywhere in the US that Im aware of.

There's something more than just his infatuation with Adora, though, based on Alan's prickly response to Vickery's visit to the house. They either have a romantic past or present, Im guessinig. Also based on the looks Vickery's wife gave Adora on Calhoun Day. He might protect Adora, but he was still an asshole to Camille, "the bad apple." when he pointedly asked John if he was of age , while cuffing him and looking at Camille. He had a warrant for his arrest. He knew exactly how old John was.

I like this show so much, I want to see a great line of perfume based on it.

I loved your post so much, I had to tell you ;) You should post in here more. One of the scariest moments for me was the opening of this episode, where Camille is dreaming that she is looking into the dollhouse and she's startled away when she sees a figure moving in it. I think it was supposed to be Amma, all decked out in a white dress and garland on her head (?), which we get a flash to at the end of the episode. Some of the songs playing in the Sheriff's car are so on the money, lyrics wise, what with all the cheating, etc. That closing song was perfect and awful at the same time, and that the Everly Bros sang it with their dulcet tones, makes it so much more creepy and weird. Im with you, hoping this is a 90min finale. I had the most fun with this episode, but it was over too quickly. I just hope the finale isnt filled with people dying slowly from poisonings. Edited to add: Someone said something about if the genders were reversed, Camille would have behaved exactly like Richard did, which is not comparable due to this huge problem we have rooted in masculinity that allows men license to denigrate women. But she would have been angry and hurt (among a set of whole other things, culturally proscribed), just like him, to see that he slept with an 18 year old girl. And I dont think that's shown enough on film, just how butthurt and jealous men get, when they find out that theyve been 'cheated' on with a younger man. Because lets face it, an older woman, entering her sexual prime, can fuck the socks off a younger man, and vice versa. Older men dont have the stamina or refractory of younger men. And that is an inequity that is not lost on men, in the least.

It's not "en vogue" to call a man using the word "slut" on a woman a misogynist. It's 100% factual. I really dont think Richard needs anyone to come to his defense. There is no serious male equivalent to the word "slut." Its a gendered word used against women. It's a gendered slur word, used to demean and dehumanize women, solely. Had Camille been black, and Richard unleashed the N-bomb on her, he shouldnt have been forgiven, either. People show you who they really are in stressful moments, just like this. He calls her a slut, insults her feminine scent, etc., he is literally telling her who he is, as the other poster said, at his core. There's a reason he's wearing that huge tattoo of a cross in this show, and it's to show he's another one of these same hypocritical, misogynistic Christians, like the ones in this town. It's not just a failure on behalf of understanding the Richard character, but also of the themes in the show itself, to write his behavior off as excusable or acceptable. Is Richard a 'horrible, no good' person? No; he's a person with some serious flaws that are all too common in a broader culture of this country, that excuses men for their casual misogyny. One thing is for sure, Chris Messina acted the scene superbly. He shows what a crybabay, entitled, meanspirited, hurt, jealous, embarrassed, and wholly misogynist man Richard actually is, under all the smugness and teasing.

The police didnt come out to the town and declare him wanted, did they? Everybody in town, including Amma's sidekicks, knew it was John through gossip. If that's the case, then Camille was ok. What's worse for Camille is, her piece is scrapped , if John really is the killer of one or both of the girls , or involved in any way. She lost any semblance of objectivity. I agree, she was great. Down to the nervous laugh mixed with relief she gives when she says to John, "Youre reading me." It's the acting that kept me in this series, because it did get frustrating at times. Some of the acting ,or reactions of the actors in scenes, was so good, it stuck with me. Anne's dad (Will Chase), when he recognizes Anne's bike seat. The hesitant apology of the haunted rapist (Jackson Hurst), and even Richard's (Chris Messina) outburst at Camille. I was impressed with The guy who plays Alan (Henry Czerny). I've seen this guy around in so many character acting roles but I couldnt name him, or any of his roles. He was superb when he got to shine, dressing down Camille or being bitter toward the sheriff. I never much liked Amy Adams' performances. Or more like, I was neutral, I guess. But this was a showcase role, and she was great in it. There're too many wonderfully acted scenes of her, Clarkson, and Perkins, to name. Clarkson gave a flawless performance.

Holy shit! I missed that. That sounds frightening af! So when Jackie has that exchange with Vickery and she asks him how his "other girl" is, she meant Adora? Is that the extent of girls' that Vickery is perfectly happy to pretend doesnt , just Adora? Or was Jackie referencing that Amma was his daughter, or Camille? She obviously needles him about it all the time, so Im inclined to think it's just Adora, based on what we've seen with Vicket and Adora in the past. Was Amma looking for any hint that Camille suspected her in the killings, or what was she looking for on her laptop, folders, etc? I cant really even comment on Patricia Clarkson's performance, she's so great. She looked really lovely in that blue outfiit, and is so creepy I can hardly stand it. There's been a wave of movies where women are poisoning people, and I really do not want to see another poisoning. It makes me nauseated to watch it. I thought Amy Adams looked great , this episode. Then it hit me. She's a voracious alcoholic and yet her face never looks puffy. Original post by Black Knight: I am aware of the different definitions of the word "broken." But in this context above, it sounds like Camille is being commented on as hopeless: "Someone as broken as Camille." Camille is being talked abut as if she is irredeemably "broken." So much so that there was no good in her sleeping with John, other than a temporary itch she needed to scratch, and that she will never learn to stick up for herself (she doesnt read Dick the "riot act," for beating up on her verbally and taking out his anger and inferiority complex out on her. she begs for forgiveness, instead, and is seen as 'weak') because she is someone who is "as broken" as she is. If the "as broken" was in a context of her having been broken in that moment, when she was 'caught cheating' by Dick, it probably wouldnt have sounded so disparaging of her, and so dismissive of her sleeping with John. It's clear that John knew what was good for Camille, and Camille, knew what was good for Camille, and I cant see where either of them were at fault with that. The fact that she begged for forgiveness from Dick after being busted in on by half a dozen cops minutes earlier, has absolutely nothing to do with the rightness of her sleeping with John. Had Dick been as sensitive as John was, he would have realized that Camille wasnt a "slut". Didnt deserve to be called a "slut" or treated like one (again, slut is a man -made word; they dont exist). He would have been hurt, but he would have understood the trauma Camille had been through. Dick sayingto her, "I dont think youre bad. I think youre a drunken slut," summed up his fucked up idea of what women were; not the reality. In rare cases, a person has sustained so much physical and/or psychic damage as to be "broken" into a psychosis, catatonia, etc. That isnt the character Camille that we see. Just my take on it. I also wonder about the people, usually women and girls, who cut, or who have situations that alienate them from a general pubic that dont understand them and what they have gone, or go, through. Throwing around the word "broken" to describe people with mental illness or who have gone through trauma and have some maladaptive or selfharming behavior is insensitive and ignorant. Someone on an earlier thread mentioned that the actor who plays John had a body like a 30 year old. He definitely looks much older than 18. I think this book and show could have done with a little scaling up of all the ages of the characters. It makes the viewer feel better to see Amy Adams with a n actor who is older than 18 (he's 23?), for sure (he even looks like he might be losing some hair up front?). But I dont think it's "gross" that Camille , who is supposed to be 28-29, is having sex with an 18 year old. She's not taking advantage of him. The context makes sense. There's no weird power differential going on here, like you'd see with a 28-29 year old man and an 18 year old woman. And that's been portrayed in countless films over the years.

I thought they said they sent the blood away to be tested. If so, they dont know it's Natalie's yet. It could still be Ashley's, from when Nat bit her ear. Or possibly Ashley belted Natalie back, and that's how her blood got there, along with Ashley's? Either way, they will find Ashliegh's blood there, too, whihc throws a wrench in the 'John did it' theory. Adora didn't do it, nor Alan, because killing teh girls was messy and pysical. I also think if they were out around town at night, people would see them. Theyre always dressed impeccably. Whether they were or were wearing cat burglar clothes, people would have taken note. The Sheriff didnt do it. Because , why would he? No one of the ex cheerleaders stands out. Mr Lacey is the only one who's a bit suspicious. He was weird with Amma, when she came out to him, after play practice, at the high school. And he gave Camille an ominous look after he apologized to her for raping her, and she walked away from him, unforgiven. Then there's the weird looks his blonde wife gave him and Amma during Calhoun Day (did she know he raped Camille? Why would you marry someone who raped someone?). Did he sleep with Amma? At the school, Amma asks him if he regrets his past. What would she know about his past? She doesnt know he and his football pals raped Camille in 9th grade, so what is she referring to? Was it a past between them; did he sleep with her (a 13 year old ;x)? Im leaning toward thinking Amma did the murders of those girls but Amma couldnt have moved the bodies of the girls on her own, lifted on into a window sill in the middle of town?, could she? Did Mr Lacy help her cover them up? He pulls his hand away from her like she's poison, in that exchange they have. Ashley hates Amma. She also thinks whoever killed the girls did it for popularity. She's also pretty transparent about wanting popularity, and kind of dumb. So I expect if she did it, she would have played her hand early, and been caught. But you point out that Amma's friends with her sister, and that;s why she hangs out at the pool. What if Amma killed at least one of the girls there, along with her girlfriends? I dont know how theyd move a body around though. Unless they beat her up there, and took her to another location , alive and killed her. But, again, Nat was found in the middle of town , in a windowsill. How did she get there? When her two girlfriends complain about Mr Lacy at play practice, one of them complains, "What do you care what he thinks? He's weird." And Amma replies. "It takes one to know one." Were they all involved, somehow? He's got daughters he loves and he seemed sincere in his apology to Camille, but was he trying to hide sleeping with Amma, a 13 year old, and going to jail, so he helped her/the girls cover the killings up? I agree 100%. And it's that willful ignorance by 'good, upstanding' people that fucks you up more than even the abuse, because you learn to trust no one; you learn that no one cares about you; and then you internalize that. Nobody deserves that. Im sorry that you went through that, Sarah

He couldnt even throw Camille out, hen Adora ordered him to. I think they already gave up the pretense that its anyone else, because we're seeing flashes of Amma in a headress of flowers, head lowered, face angry; ie, a Minotaur. Kind of trite, but can also spooky in a flowery Southern gothic way,VC Andrews way.

This show would have been so much funnier with Elijah from "Girls."

DIckie;s got a madonna/ whore complex thats's 100x bigger than his tattoo. It seems like he does , though. He looked sad, afraid and resigned, and a montage of his daughters was playing through his mind. He lives at home, he knows Adora by now, he seems well aware that her medical concoctions match the ill symptoms with his kids, and it almost seemed like he was confirming it with her, that this time Amma was so 'bad', that it may well be a fatal dose administered to her. I think he's operating on two levels, one is denial, but the other knows Adora is makes the girls ill and eventually kills them. Its not like the guy has a job to go to. You can hide your head in the sand only so long. He's just like Adora. They both believe its the perception of what they show other people that's really real, and not the fucked up monsters they really are.