Butless

I had a feeling Jackie was gonna let me down, but the characters was leaning this way, all along. There was always an undercurrent of jealousy about Camille, and those games she was playing, instead of coming out and telling the damn cop about her suspicions. It's like she was willing to snoop about Marion's death to what? hold it over Adora's head, if she could prove it? Now she has a chance to get some justice for Marion and make Adora pay, and she does nothing to bother the sick status quo of that town. I am glad that 's how it ended; with Camiile telling her to fuck herself. I will still love her for her silent side-eye and vaping during Calhoun Day, and for when she went for Richard's gun (that ring! those mumus!).

I mustve missed where she knew they were coming after John, right at that moment. But if she did know, she also knew the area a bit, and they were in the Mexican part of town, it looked like. Why would Mexican workers call th ecops on John, even f it was broadcast? No reason to do it, unless maybe there was a reward out for capture, wich I dont recall them mentioning. So I think she had reason to believe it might take the a min more to get to him, Also: they were bith drinking, and it probably clouded her judgment. She sees words where there are none when shes's drinking, so. Camille is not "broken." People who have mental illnesses or problems like Camilles are not "broken." Objects are broken and you can toss them out. People are more resilient.\, and "broken" is such a dismissive, horrible thing to say about a person. Camille has problems, but she is already starting to overcome them. Her interlude wasnt a band-aid. He was the first person to see her body, with all the cuts and words in it, and to be compassionate with her. He saw *her." He understood her pain, and wasnt put off by it. He was empathetic, and loving. Honestly, everybody should be so lucky to have John or Joanna or whatever in their lifetime. It is something Camille will take with her, and build on. Camille reacted to Richard;s anger the way anyone who had been neglected, abused and made to feel worthless their whole life would have reacted. That's no shame on Camille. All the shame goes to Dickie, who's ego couldnt handle that he felt her was rejected. He immediately calls her a slut, after he acts like a entitled brat and spews his shot about how he was only interested in her because he couldnt figure out why she wasnt all over his dick, and that she was a game for him to figure out. Not a , you know, person who has their own secrets and inaccessible places to some asshole theyve only known a week.

Camille has a good heart and is sensitive, like John is. I think sleeping with him was a good decision made with her heart, and it helped to heal her (and comforted him) more than anything ever has. It was the best decision and fuck Dickie. That cross on his back fits in to the theme here of Christian hypocrisy. Shes a "drunken slut"? Fuck you twice as hard, Det Dickface. She had "one" bad thing happen to her? He knows about Adora by now and he says this to her? What a spoiled male chauvinist brat. Go back to Kansas, you wimpy snake.

The original post by Tattlrteeny (below) You mentioned Amma in your post, but these quotes above made it sound like you were talking in a broader way. about gender, in general. So it sounded pretty twisted. Thanks for clarifying. Adora was sitting there , drinking, waiting for Camille to come home so she could hurt her. So she may have been somewhat high, may have confused Camille with one of the victim girls because they were tomboys , just like Camille. None of the victims were that young. They were the same age or a year or two younger than Amma, who's 13. So Adora, in addition to all that, is off her rocker. Dont know if it's deliberate or not with her, actually; but shes a lying, manipulative, gaslighting bitch to Camille, so it really doesnt matter to me, as a viewer. She's not redeemable in this story. Unless you go outside the bounds of this world. and believe the makers would puull some 'Camille's an unreliable narrator!' story on us in teh last act. And that would just piss everyone off, because absolutely nothing points to that in this story, so far. Adora and Amma are cut from the same cloth. Its clear to me that Adora has very strong strains of sociopathy from her behavior; it is that beyond the pale. Camille does not. Addiction and cutting dont point to sociopathy. She's obviously a caring person, to give a shit about Amma, because most people when confronted with the kind og bulling straight-up meanness of Amma, would at least be cautious around her. If it were me, and she stuvk that lollipop in my hair and twirled it, like she did with Camille, Id have done everything to stop myself from backhanding that little bitch. There's no way Id of let my guard down with her again, and that's a healthy response. Camille just stomps off and cries, like she's 14. She's stuck there by trauma, in the emotional reactions of a 14 year old. She's like that when she goes to Richard too. It's hard to watch. So Camille had a far worse life than Amma, but is not a mean, manipulative and cold person, like her, and her mother. Ive changed my view somewhat on her editor, as I went ack and saw he did give her a chance to take an out, when he said, 'Do it , if you can.' But of course, he did put the pressure on her, And he did at like he knew what was best for her. which ia completer b.s. To think that he would have the utmost respect for Camille, whom he just met, and put his job second, is weird. This isnt some fantasy romance story , where its love at first sight and the man is so besotted that he's living in a delusion , while here's Camille, throwing up these massive red flags every time theyre together. But. It doesnt play it totally straight either, by having this detective never suspect that Camille is a drug addict. He can see she hits the bottle hard, already. So he sees this woman who never even rolls up her long sleeved dark shirts, no matter that its hot, and she never shows her feet, either...As a cop, he's going to assume she's shooting up or has a godawful rash under there. And even if he's falling for her , and she shows up at his door for a booty call, he is not going to have sex with her without seeing her bare arms, at least. So which way are they going to play this 'romance' with them? Is he going to go against type (as a detective), and be even more in love when he sees her extensive words on her body, because he cares for her so much? Or is he going to think shes nuts, or a broken beyond repair person? IMO, if they stick with reality, the relationship will stall out when he sees her scarring. The perception of Camille is that she's 'crazy' because of the scarring. The truth is that she's not at all, and this is a coping mechanism to severe trauma. As a cop, I doubt highly that he would pursue someone who others presume is unbalanced, on sight. And those scars are not going to be hidden forever,from friends and colleagues . That then throws his judgment into question. I think he'll pussy out of this relationship, if it's headed this way. They've only known each other a week. [Not sure what i hit to make it underline/ error]

Why would we believe anything Adora had to say, about anything? We've seen how she is. She's a gaslighting , manipulative narcissistic monster. I thought she probably implied to Richard that Camille is so crazy, she probably had something to do with the death of the girl she was confined with in psychiatric care. And thats also maybe why he was checking her out. He's known Camille a week, and his job is literally to check out unusual seeming things, as detective. I really dont see this as a breech on his relationship with Camille, because they hardly have one and he's just doing his job. Cutting is one thing. Cutting your entire body up with words by the time your 30 is another , and points to severe trauma that she's sustained. He's sensitive enough to catch on that she was upset when he was joking with her about what Adora said to him, on Calhoun Day and seemed concerned about Camille. This is also a guy who has strong feelings for abused animals, so I dont see him rejecting Camille. Although honestly? She needs some intensive therapy in order to deal with all of it, her whole life. I thin Dick can intuit that there's something hinky with Adora. Im sure as a cop, he probably can tell when someone's playing him. If not, hes a dolt.

i mean, maybe that's a sociopaths take on female friendship? Most girls arent using their girlfriends for popularity in high school, and the bonds can be deep. She mentions that the girl who lets the guys do stuff to her are the ones in control. So they are in control of those guys liking her, but its just as superficial as what she thinks the female friendship is. If she didnt let the boys do stuff to her, threyd lose interest in her faster than her girl pals would. So I think she meant she could manipulate those guys she had on a string by letting them do things to her; whereas the girls couldnt be played that way. Btw, even those Camille is high, youd think if she felt something for Amma she'd be more emphatic about telling her not to sell herself out to boys, who are just using her, since a lot of her trauma came fro, a situation of boys exploiting her body. Thats an interesting anecdote, but not every school or cheerleading squad is run that way. Some do not wear their outfits all day, for various reasons, and do change before the games. Especially if they arent doing some sort of rally for the school during the day. Also cheerleaders, even the ones who are part of the "base", jump, bend, and kick their legs up. All things that lift their skirts ( which are short to begin with), so that thighs are seen. That's why they wear bodysuits or a bottom panty that matches their outfit. And im going to say, if Camille bled that heavy from a cut on her thigh, that cut would be visible even from the bleachers. I think it's twice as likely, or more actually, that Becca wouldve been raped by those white boys, based on racism and the perception of her 'race' status as beneath the standing or worthiness of a white person, and therefore less protected as a white person. Man, if we;ve learned anything about race relations in the South, its that the black women were significantly more in danger of being raped than the white ones, *because* of racism, and not in spite of it. The question of whether thats how it was for blacks approximately 20 years ago (because that is the timeline; 20 or less years ago) is completely moot. It has to do with how people oof color are being portrayed * by the film makers* that is the matter. None of them have an inner life. They xist in the finsihed product to prop up the goodness of Camille. There are no "magical Negros" in real life. That s is solely a term used to describe, in this case, black people who exist to prop up the other characters. All three of the black women characters in this , so far, exist only in those capacities. I dont even recall seeing a back man in this, let alone hearing one talk. But ive missed quite a few things, so far. Anyway, its so glaring that I find it hard to believe that the topr 3 women who produced and created this show werent aware of it, and I wonder if there was footage making them more 3D that was cut out of the show. Still, theyre judged on the final product.

i was looking at older episodes and when she's in the bar with Richard and he says something about Jackie, Camille says shes been the only one from there who was nice to her. He doesn't believe her because he's been told by people there that she was the golden girl when she lived there. And she says, 'I meant genuinely nice.' So maybe they kissed her butt because she was Adora's kid? Also, strictly speaking, some of the flashbacks are not from her perspective.

What does Amma mean by this? Is she the killer and did she manipulate one or both of those boys in her posse to help kill and/or mutilate the victims? We never see her be that girl wit the special light in any of the flashbacks, though, do we? She looks really common; she 's not an outstanding beauty. She seems like a mean bitchy teen. No charm or charIsma. So could it be that they threw all that praise on her because she was Adora's daughter, and Adora ran the town?

Yes; straight to the point. She looks like she's lived in those clothes so long that she's built up layers of sweat stains.. It makes me think she smells like a used clothing store. Her boots look uncomfortable. She walks sort of pigeon-toed, so it looks like they hurt her feet. Im always wanting Amy Adams to move her hair out of her face. That hank of hair hanging down looks crappy, and when shes sweating so much, it seems like it would get dirty, fast. Up top!

No problem.

Yes; Caarps; that's why I said, It was implied that they were both a kind of Vic house, and those narrow ones were built in and around cities, and therefore more abundant ("regular"), and that this type was rural. It's obvious that not all southerners had/have manions. If that were true, more people woud have migrated there, than have emigrated from there.

That was really interesting. Southern homes like this seem more welcoming to live in than regular old Victorian homes, which have really cramped quarters and narrow claustrophobic hallways.

Cheerleaders wear bodysuits for a reason. And sometimes they change into them together. Or shes emo, like a teenager. Her emotional maturity kind of stopped aat that age. She acts like a child in a lot of ways, including flipping Alan off. Its the style of the clothes. She dresses in dark colors, but its not chic clothing. Its the opposite of urbane and classy. Its functional and workwear, She always looks like shes wearing dark jeggings with some oversized untucked work shirt, and boots.

This image which flashed at the beginning of this episode disturbed me. Because the reflection in the mirror looks like a completely different person from the girl standing in front of the door (her rehab roommate?) I know she has the bloody vomit around her face, but she looks like a totally different person to me.

That's odd that they would say it was a cry for help, because usually what is said , is that the killer staged the victim , because he wanted to shock th eonlookers, because its a Fuck You to the town/neighborhood/city/ cops, and that they frequently put the victims on display publicly to admire their handiwork and delight in the horror and fear it causes the witnesses. Cops also know that frequently, the killer is nearby watching the gruesome display unfold. So who was there when they found her? The older man & woman who cam out of the back door to the alley and found her, and then John & Amma and her posse across the street? Sometimes they will match images in editing a story for no other reason than that the two images mirror one another in some way. Im hardpressed to think what those two images mean on a deeper level other than what they convey: the sheriff concerned about law and order and keeping up appearances in town, and Dick is doing the nitty gritty innovative work on a deeper level, in order to solve the crime. How did Camille carve her thigh up and expect that it wouldnt be seen by the other cheerleaders when they are wearing short skirts that fly up? Hows she going to ascend a pyramid formation , etc, and not get a hand on her leg or someone see up her skirt?

Yes; this: theyre all pigs for the slaughter in Wind Gap. And the executioner is Adora , and Amma, on her own plain. This author seems to like to write about female predatory behavior, so Im thinking the murderer will be female. Youd have to be strong enough, big enough and angry enough as a woman, to pull out all those teeth. Dick had a hard time doing it, and he has the strength of a small monkey compared to the female characters on the show. I can think of one female character who has all three of those factors; strength, leverage and most importantly, the level of anger. What I dont understand is any significance to pulling teeth. That does smack of a male fetish; something sexual, in itself. Whereas if the murderers reasoning is that the person said something horrible and it angered them, youd go after the tongue or lips. Not the teeth. Minus a sexual angle, the pulling out of the teeth would be done just because you could, i guess, and to mutilate the victim. Or maybe, say, they had been bitten by the victim?. But would they have been bitten by two different girls? Even if those girls were friends and both were biters (at 12 or 13? thats really odd) , what is the likihood the murderer would have been bitten by both of them? Can anyone else thing of a reason why a murderer would pull out those victims' teeth? I dont think Adora has the upper body strength to wrestle a 12 year old, let alone pull out their teeth. If this is a tandem killing team, Im going to cry foul. That would just be so far out on the outlier. The town is shitty, its not a cult. People keep talking about this as if Camille's an unreliable narrator. I havent read the book, so I dont know if the book is played up to be that way. But I got no indication that the show was ever presenting all these flashbacks as being those of a possibly unreliable narrator. Camille is presented as clear-eyed on this show. She's a cutter, and as far as I know, they arent related to any metal illness that have delusion or psychosis as a side effects. So there's no reason for me to think she is remembering the past at all. She lies to Kirk Lacey about not remembering what happened in the woods with him and the other boys obviously because she mentions the fact that he couldnt get an erection. Believing you were responsible or deserved a sexual assault isnt the same as being an unreliable narrator, as scores of people who are sexually assaulted have a very difficult time coming to terms with it. And for her, this was a betrayal x 5 or 6 (boys). Somehow I may have forgotten the age she mentioned was of a freshman football team , which is even more mindbreaking because 14 year olds are truly on the childish side of the teen years. Even in Wind Gap, I tdont think a freshman football team can get away with gangraping all the cheerleaders. A tradition of gangrape is beyond the pale. A weekly one beggars reality. I think if they did it to anyone other than Camille, they picked the vulnerable girls, like any predators do. The promiscuous ones, the ones who drink or do drugs, the ones who are poor or from broken or ill-reputed families. So that they can deflect the blame of the rapes back onto them, and no one is bound to believe those girls. Another poster asked this also. 'Pulling a train 'refers to at least two males on a female, with the male genitals linking them; ie, looking like train cars. Its a sexual term that makes my hair stand up, in how it objectifies the female person involved (all of them, really). I have nothing against the sexual practice at all , when its consensually practiced by adults. But it is almost always said in the context of the men degrading the woman (girl , here) involved, when it isnt a private act, as with the football team. And it;s something so frequently seen in porn, that 14 year old boys would think it was somewhat acceptable to do to a classmate, in this particular case. I just said "taking a turn' to define the difference between that M-F-M sexual ac, that's typically seen in porn, as opposed to standing in line and having sex in a M&F act. Typically packs of men (or boys, here) use the 'pulling a train ' act as a way of male bonding, such as with football teams, like in this story. The woman is just an object that is used. I thought it was from a few years before the rape. Shes not only looks and dresses younger, and her sister is alive. She's dead on her birthday/ the gangrape day, where her hair is long. Mystery solved. Kind of. Why were the credit card bills right there ? Were they fighting over the bills and it broke out into sex? Or was he making a really gross point about how they couldnt afford any more kids? Was there? I recall a scene where Adora's holding Amma on the floor, but Amma seems to be having some kind of tantrum more than a seizure. Amma seems physically hale and healthy all the time. Like a force of nature. i dont think hes needed at all. Hes there much like the black characters of Becky and Gayla, and that is solely to show us that Camille is a good person and worthy of love. Its unnecessary. The audience can see for themselves that Camille is a sympathetic character. It really comes off to me as her having a wizened old fatherlike champion, like in a lot of older films, with a female lead. Hes the man behind the woman, sort of thing. Newsflash: women go through trauma, some so horrible that it leaves all sorts of emotional and physical scars on them, that cripple them. And you know what? They survive, more or less. And they overwhelmingly do it alone. Men can come , men can go; and the women roll on. This crutch of a male champion of female protagonists in movies is just that, a crutch, and Id rather see something more realistic, for once. Camille doesnt need Richard, or Alan, or the sheriff, or her creepy editor who orders her around like he knows whats best for her when he doesnt know the depth of the shit she is in with Adora and her hometown, to validate her. To bolster her. Or to champion her. She's come this far on her own; she's strong enough to handle this on her own.

Thank you. I will probably never remember this, though. The reason I cant learn these names is in partly because the volume is so damn low with HBO, and partly because all of the characters except for the apologist Kirk and the nice cheerleader Becky could be interchangeable. Theyre all deeply shitty narrowminded small town assholes. Is Wind Gap another term that means flatulence? Cause that;s all I hear when they open their mouths.

That makes it even more perfect, thanks. I thought the comment about jerking off on a credit card receipt or whatever, was a way to say that he got off on his wife cuckolding him for his money? Its called financial cuckolding or domination. I think shes referring to the apologizer? Im assuming hes married to the blonde hostess. Only because she looked hard at him and then Amma, in the previous episode. She also has a home full of crappy knickknacks. She seems mean and shes definitely bossy. And he has guilt all mixed up with sex. So it fits.

As in, makeup.

When she was talking about it, wasnt she affecting a rhetorical type of explanation with Dickie? She even asked him 'what if' it was consensual. I took all of what she said to be deflection. I think it happened to her, and any other vulnerable girls like her maybe, but not all the cheerleaders. The apologizer, Lacy, said he was haunted by that one time. He would likely have also been involved or knew about the gangrape of his wife and all the women at his house that day. So, it was likely just Camille. When the blood was flowing down her leg in that flashback, i thought it mightve been a rape related injury, but No they said it was her cutting. Back to what a poster said earlier in the thread, whatever happened in the woods, it affected all participants in one way or another. I think the apologizer was harmed, obviously. But I just have less sympathy for him and any other boys. Especially next to the trauma it did to Camille. Those boys were old enough to know right from wrong, and its why he couldnt get an erection. The fact that they "pulled a train" on her as opposed to forming a line and 'taking a turn', smacks of them learning how to think about and treat girls from porn. Which was plastered all over that shed. And Camille mightve learned it from there too. It seems like her sexual awakening came a few years earlier, when she was looking at the pictures in that shed. I think Camille had no love or affection in her life. I can see things she mightve been seeking , as opposed to Ashley who is only concerned with popularity, could have led her there that day, and it went wrong, as reality is harsher than still lifes.

I took what Camille said about the cheerleader of the week as deflecting what happened to her. I think it was only her.

This is HBO. They know they have this problem and wont fix it. Theyre the reason I had to buy speakers. Been like this for years.

That just went from me agreeing with you about the show, to me fearing you because of what you know, loll Johns not from there, though. They moved there not long ago.

I cant <3 this comment enough ;p

That's the power of highlighter in direct sun. He slept with her when she had her full set of clothes on. I dont think a cop or any other sane guy wouldnt be suspicious that she didnt want them to see her skin. She could have advanced syphlitic disease under there or leprosy. No guy wants his dick to fall off due to not checking out their partner, first. Unless Adams is so hot, that a guy wouldnt care. In fact, as sad as this story is, in the real world, vary few men would probably kick Adams out of bed for having a scarred body. Shes conventionally pretty, a redhead, and she has the gold standard body type for women that is absolutely worshipped in this country; ie she has the thin body of a 14yr old girl. This story would have been more interesting with a more average looking woman in the role. As it is, i think a lot of gross men would think they has hit thr jackpot with her. A beautiful woman whos skin allows them to put her in their league, and always them to control her, because her insecurities are naked to the eye and just waiting to be exploited.