adora721

It's not dirty for a police officer, legally authorized by the state, to kill a criminal he knows has murdered almost a dozen people including a warden. As a CSI, I don't know if Barry has the same license to kill as Joe does. Notice I said kill not murder. Killing a serial killer, which is what DeVoe is, isn't dirty work; it's justice. And we can assume DeVoe's "enlightenment" isn't going to be good for CC or possibly the world, since megalomaniacs rarely settle for just controlling a city. Therefore, they are more than justified in killing him to save the planet - no dirty work involved. We don't call our police or military forces "dirty" when they kill criminals or our enemies. It should be the last resort, but it doesn't make them or their work dirty.

I'm not sure why Barry as The Flash hasn't enlisted the aid of law enforcement to help capture DeVoe before now. We know the CCPD doesn't currently trust Barry Allen, but they do still trust The Flash. After the police saw the events at the penitentiary, Team Flash should have enlisted the aid of the police. Even if they couldn't pin it all on DeVoe, they could have set a plan in motion to use law enforcement in their quest to thwart DeVoe's plans. And the police are empowered to use deadly force. Or, how about asking Joe to use the tuning fork to kill DeVoe because Joe is a police officer legally authorized to use deadly force when justified.

There are changes coming to the Arrowverse management: http://deadline.com/2018/04/arrow-beth-schwartz-new-showrunner-wendy-mericle-exits-marc-guggenheim-executive-consultant-arrow-legends-of-tomorrow-1202366373/ Wendy Mericle is leaving; Marc Guggenheim is no longer "LoT" or "Arrow" show runner- he's now a consultant. Todd Helbing remains on "The Flash".

I certainly hope you are right. I've said that Caitlin needs therapy more so than WestAllen. I couldn't believe she suggested therapy for them, but not for herself. The writing has really missed an opportunity to write a real, redemptive story for Caitlin and to address mental illness, too, which is a very relevant issue. Caitlin's unwillingness to get therapy suggests that she has no interest in experiencing relationships outside of Team Flash. Does she never want romantic love again? Or doesn't she want new friends or to be able to travel without having KF casting a shadow over these experiences? I have little hope we'll get to see her actually try to integrate her two personalities or make peace with KF. It cannot be anything but terrifying to not know what her other personality is doing. That alone should motivate her to get therapy.

Oh, I totally agree, but I just used the common term some people idealize. I, personally, love OTB (Original Team Barry), which is Joe and Iris. OTB existed long, long before any other team.

Perhaps it's a breadcrumb tossed by the TPTB to those clamoring for OTF. Although deliberate, it may be the last time we see OTF like this, so those who prefer OTF better enjoy it while it lasts. And no, I don't believe Cisco is leaving. I believe Cait or Harry is leaving.

I'm not trying to make AJK seem like some genius Machiavellian manipulator, but he is a seasoned writer and producer who knows how his audience thinks. He knew he was stirring the pot. I think that he was plotting to undermine WA using the "incest" thing, the Snowbarry thing, the poor writing of Iris at times, etc. And he had two alternatives to Iris, Caitlin and Patty, waiting in the wings. My guess is Caitlin was his preference. The fact that it didn't work doesn't mean he isn't guilty of attempting to undermine WA. I think the evidence is there, but I can understand if someone disagrees. It's not like interracial couples as lead characters haven't been thwarted before by the writers/producers; see Abbie and Ichabod in "Sleepy Hollow", Danny and Lacey in "Twisted" , James and Kara in "Supergirl". I'm sure there are more examples. One of the reasons the SB fans are so active in trying to get SB to happen is that they've seen the overthrow of interracial couples successfully done many times before. SB fans expect to win because others like them have always won before. They are so accustomed to winning in the past, no amount of facts in the show have dissuaded them from believing that they will get their way.

I agree with this completely. I believe that AJK, had he remained, intended to find a way to end WestAllen. In a season 4 interview, AJK stated, "Yes, they're getting married, but can they stay married is the question with all that's coming at them?" I'm paraphrasing, of course. When I heard this, my mind went on high alert. I couldn't understand why he'd say that unless it was to ship tease SB fans for hope that they would get their ship or just to worry WA fans to keep them invested in their ship after marriage. Now that @Kate45 mentioned the Henry and Nora divorce in the comics, which I'd never heard about, I wonder if that was what AJK planned on doing with WA. I just pray that Todd Helbing and the remaining PTB don't go down that road.

I think the Spallen relationship served several purposes, some already discussed. I also think that Patty was the insert for certain members of the audience who wanted to see Barry make a romantic effort with a woman of the same race. It's also why we didn't see Patty be jealous of Iris; historically white femininity is at the top of the totem pole, so why would Patty be jealous of a WOC? I think Eddie was threatened from the start, but not because he had spent so much time with Barry and Iris. Remember that Barry was in a coma for 9 months while Eddie dated Iris. I suspect that Iris talked all about her BFF, Barry Allen, during those 9 months. Eddie, being a detective, couldn't help but notice that Iris was deeply connected to Barry. Once Barry was out of the coma, Eddie could then see for himself that so much more was going on than he first suspected.

Please tell me the bolded is a joke... I agree about the coded language. The "they are like siblings", "they give off a siblings vibe" is a criticism I have heard for all the popular interracial couples. AJK and his writing team played right into that with some of the dialogue. @Starry: I first saw a screenshot of this SB Tweet on Tumblr that actually has this theory. A WestAllen fan took the screenshot, which I've copied here:

To be sure, self-interest might be the sole reason DP was willing to undercut the lead actress, but you seem to think that racism and self-interest cannot occur simultaneously. That isn't the case; they can and do intersect. Don't you realize that some white feminists can also be racist against women of color? Seems contradictory, but it's also very true. Anyway, I don't believe I implied racism for DP, but for AJK. I said that DP helped in his undermining of WestAllen by aiming to create media backlash against WestAllen, in her case, by promoting SB. I do think AJK used the naturally-occurring racism in fandom to help him do that. As others have said, the executives and producers all knew there would be racial anger with CP's casting. Even if AJK isn't himself a racist, he certainly used the racial tensions or anger in fandom to help his cause of undermining WestAllen and Iris' place in the story. As for DP, she barely supported the "Run, Iris, Run" episode, whereas she's supported a lot of the other episodes. DP has also been known to retweet some questionable or negative things and has been silent when clearly racist tweets have been sent to CP and DP was also on the thread. A great quote ascribed to MLK Jr. is, "In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."

I think someone told her it was a possibility, and I think that person was AJK. I'm so glad to see so many people discussing this issue. I firmly believe that all the SB ship teases, all the bad writing for Iris at some key points, all the protecting of Caitlin no matter how many bad things she did, and even making Barry and Iris pseudo-siblings was AJK's attempt to undermine WestAllen in the minds of the public and the media. AJK had to be slick about, too. He had to find a way to make the public root for SB while seeming to support WestAllen. And I, for one, was concerned it would work. Think about when Joe called Barry his "adopted" son, yet we know that if that were true, Barry and Iris couldn't legally marry. And we had many scenes with Barry and Henry proclaiming their father-son relationship, with Barry stating that he was proud to keep the Allen name. And yet the writers never made it absolutely clear that Joe was just his legal guardian or foster father. When Patty basically called Iris Barry's sister, why wasn't there a line for Iris to correct Patty? Even in the pilot when Iris said, "Because we're kinda like brother and sister...". That was completely unnecessary. I think AJK used the writing to poison the minds of those susceptible to the inference of "incest" to make WestAllen seem off-limits from the start, just like Oliver sleeping with Sara made Lauriver toxic from the start in "Arrow". I believe all this was a deliberate attempt to obfuscate, confuse, and muddy the romantic waters between Barry and Iris. The goal was to create strong media backlash against WestAllen similar to Lauriver. If that had worked, you bet they would have done something with SB. AJK and DP were co-conspirators in this I believe. DP had no shame about propping SB even while Caitlin had Ronnie back in her life. And she did this right in front of Candice. I've sensed for a long time that those two (DP and CP) do not get along well outside of their acting scenes on the show. Even the quickie SnoWest friendship seems acted with minimal enthusiasm or truthfulness. While you can tell that Carlos and CP get along in front of and behind the cameras. For awhile, Caitlin and Iris never even stood next to each other. Caitlin only hugged Barry at the engagement announcement. At the housewarming party, Caitlin was right behind Joe after Iris hugged him, but Iris then hugs Cisco not Caitlin. With these directing choices, AJK was setting up a rivalry and distance between these women in Barry's life. This was a conscious effort to pass them off to the audience as in battle for Barry's affections even while writing for WestAllen. I'd like to think that Geoff Johns also had strong support for WestAllen that kept AJK from straying too far since Geoff wrote a lot "Flash" titles. You know how there's talk of coded words that racists use that only other racists understand? It's the same. AJK knows the specific kinds of people who'd understand his covert form of racism and undermining of Iris and WestAllen. To this day, there are still those who bought into AJK's covert manipulation, and they will go to their graves still believing the lies AJK planted in the soil of the show. These people are such devoted believers in AJK's lies that they think that the Mystery Girl is Caitlin and Barry's daughter who gets her coloring from Joe. Yikes!

Yes, I recall that. It was very insulting to use Joe as the stand-in (so to speak) for Cecile or for all the Black members of the team perhaps. I guess Joe stands in for Iris, too, since she's his daughter. And notice that Cecile was still scared of KF during "Girl's Night Out", so that indirect apology must not have made an impact- quelle surprise! What's worse is that Killer Frost also threatened to freeze Iris' arm in that same episode, too. And didn't apologize for the threat when it was all over. Some fans vilified Iris just for questioning Caitlin's sudden return to the team in 4x1. And yet KF can threaten to maim Iris and not a peep outta those same fans.

I don't think that will happen. In order to really sell this insta-friendship between Caitlin and Iris, an apology would have really helped. I suspect there are two reasons for said friendship: 1) Make Caitlin matter more to Iris so that if something bad happens to Cait, it will have a more emotional impact on Iris, the lead female. 2) Attempt to fix a glaring lack of female friendship between the two women working on Team Flash. I actually think Iris had a more believable "friendship" with Felicity than with Cait. Now, I can only imagine KF apologizing if she should "die".

I'm beginning to wonder if all this attention on Ralph isn't a prelude to making him a permanent addition to the cast, especially if Tom C. or someone else leaves ( or dies) at the end of the season. Have we seen such an intense focus on a guest star like what's happening with Ralph? Not even Julian had this much screen time. I know Ralph is Barry's good friend in the comics and Ralph has a sweetheart, too. I just wonder if this is all a preparation for Dibny to stay.

See, I don't think it's an issue of sorting out who is who or their connection. It's now a fact that both Killer Frost and Caitlin are a part of the team. We even had Killer Frost go give Ralph a pep talk (full of lies about how she only kidnapped and stabbed her friends). This showed that KF is capable of caring about someone else. The fact that Killer Frost hasn't shown concern enough for Iris or Cecile to say the words, "I'm sorry I hurt you." is a testament to the fact that the writers don't think those women are owed an apology. I had an ex-BF who hated to apologize when he messed up. When I asked him about that, he claimed that his actions should be more important than saying words. And while that is often true, there is great power in those words. Those words indicate contrition, awareness that you've harmed or hurt someone, and implies an intent to do better going forward. And yes, as women, we need to hear the words. Actions and words work together in most instances. So, we've seen KF reach out to Ralph, someone who's only been on Team Flash for less than a season/a year. However, KF doesn't reach out to Iris, who's been on the team since S2, who stood up for her against Amunet, who made her alternate personality a maid of honor, and befriended KF despite her part in Savitar's murder plot? This sounds like a deliberate decision to avoid having these characters (Caitlin/KF) show remorse to the female lead character, Iris, and Cecile. How is that feminist? How is that socially progressive? How is that even kind?

I so agree with this! The irony was having Caitlin be the one to tell Iris and Barry to go to counseling. Like, what!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You need counseling, Caitlin and Frost. It might have made for some funny moments, too, to have Killer Frost show up to chat with the therapist. But no, they send a relatively mentally sound couple to counseling instead. Now, that's crazy....

The most glaring thing about the lack of apology is that Caitlin apologized to Cisco and Barry (kinda in the S3 finale) and to Joe (in the S4 premiere). However, neither Caitlin nor KF has apologized to the two Black women she tried to harm. If KF and Caitlin are separate, why did the writers have Caitlin apologize if she wasn't culpable? And the apologies were very vague. "Sorry about HR", to Cisco and Barry. Not ,"Sorry that I tried to kill you and stab you". Or how about, "Sorry I took HR to his death". And the apology to Joe made little sense since it was Cecile she kidnapped and threatened to murder. Joe is not the representative of all the Black people on the show. Why not apologize to Cecile, too? Why not apologize to Iris in the "Girl's Night Out" episode? Until a genuine apology is given to both women, I will never believe Caitlin nor Killer Frost is a safe person to have on the team.

New person here; hi. Killer Frost did kill Hunter Zolomon as the Black Flash.