Nash

And sticking with B; I'm curious about Bronn's fate. I think he'll get out of KL and make it to the northern front where he'll fight the undead. He acts as a harsh voice of common sense and while he's brutal and venal for him it's a job not a sadistic calling. Part of me thinks he could survive if only to make the point that it's fine to break the wheel but a future king or queen will only make a new one.

Well there is some heavy weight speculation here, I have a few ideas but will start with a fun one .....Beric Dondarion to kill the undead dragon with his flaming sword and go out heroically....

OK..... Tim; I think he's lucky the job is in BA - I'd give him a 75% chance of survival (in post Falklands, post Junta Argentina) as opposed to Nicaragua or El Salvador where I'd give him 25% of making it home. And that's before the KGB think about offing him. Gennady; he's a walk in. Rule one - presume a walk in is a provocation until proven otherwise. I think she did the sensible soviet thing and spoke to the Rezidentura as soon as the FBI contacted her. Stan has good instincts and I think he knows this is heading south. Oh yes....If P&E are exposed, Stan isn't implicated, just moved to the S Dakota office investigating mail fraud until he resigns out of boredom. Unless he breaks the case. Tuan; yes he's a cold mission focused one alright. Trauma and the war only goes so far - I felt revulsion at his plan. I think he may flip on P&E "they went soft on the hard option, comrade". Though I was impressed that as soon as they hit the street P&E held hands and Tuan looked around a bit goofily (thus scoping out the area); the clown even walked on the grass. The suicide plan isn't just repulsive it's bone stupid - that happens and all sorts of interviews take place - the very kind of stuff P&E need to avoid. So much for OpSec, Tuan. That's what P&E have on him.....and that's all. Oleg - he's heading for the gulag or the 9mm. Unless....he admits to a small misdemeanour that suggests he still has an angle to play on Stan. I don't know what angle but he kept it together under a grilling - they kept the phone book in the drawer of course - and he has the balls to sell it if he gets a chance. Once in the USA he can defect or not as he wishes; his problem is his parents. Henry - he's just a kid and isn't being recruited by anyone. Yet. As for P&E; any kind of heavyweight investigation will break their legends. If they fake deaths, leaving P&H in place, it has to be open and shut so no one goes digging. Claudia? I wouldn't trust her with the paper last weeks fish and chips were wrapped in.

I don't know but i dont recall the book Nampara as being much of a manor; more of a large well appointed farmhouse (albeit in need of sympathetic restoration). I think I read that that was one reason (amongst others) that Demelza was a good choice of wife for Ross, she'd learnt how to run what was really a farmhouse.

That's where the show is I think clever; it's inverted the prism we watch through. The KGB are by and large shown as professional while the FBI seem to bumble about. P&E are killers but are also committed to a cause and are as resourceful as any Bond or Bourne. Our reaction to the trail of bodies behind P&E is the result of our values - achieve the mission but minimise collateral and maintain your moral integrity. For P&E, the mission is everything, for them it is a war, in the shadows, but a war and casualties - happen.

And so.....firstly my apologies if my above post was a bit, direct. the collaborator plot line was, for me, in the context of the horror of the Eastern Front and the Soviet and Russian reaction to the Great Patriotic War - spot on. Very few Russians of P&Es generation would have had much sympathy and Claudia and Gabriel would have had no compunction - iirc Claudia used "our boys". I suspect E shot the husband first to make the traitor suffer (and get rid of the innocent witness) and I'm just suprised she didn't indulge in a brief "in the name of the people" before pulling the trigger. If your country hasn't been invaded you cannot comprehend the sheer hatred felt for traitors and collaborators, especially those with blood on their hands. In Russia, traitors die. Yes, it's telling that it's this mission that pushes them to the edge. Olegs partner declined his offer of a bit of high class shopping because all his instincts shouted "its a trap" and frankly I don't blame him.

I've not read the rest of this thread but think I'll comment on this now Do you love your country? Not the politics or the system but the countryside, the humour, the people? Whatever it is? The Russians rallied in 1941 to defend the RODINA, Mother Russia. Sure some were fighting for Stalin, for Communism but an awful lot more were simply Russians fighting for Russia because men in feldgrau invaded their homeland. Russians love Russia because it's where they, their parents, their grandparents were born. Its. Their. Home.

That's the sort of stuff - and yes Adelholt for the win. His seemingly inane and crass question "do you want a coke?", kept the dialogue going and led to the "she's pretty he's lucky" comment; they almost struck luck there

Yes - but do the Feds know of those many of those cases? As viewers we know what's happened, the FBI only know parts (to them Gaad's death now looks like a KGB hit while we know it was a bungled approach). You'd imagine there was a record of KGB approaches to employees with security clearances but it's also a good bet that those records will be held by the various Govt bodies and shared very cautiously. I know this is negative for anybody who is cheering on the FBI!

Yes, you are absolutely right; iirc Karla avoided radios for example. The thing is for me - that Smiley knew he was looking for one mole in a group of four officers and yes, Karla's MO could help because that led to the mole's behaviour. This is a bigger area and far less leads. Money flows would be great - one could lead to the travel agency - but the FBI don't know where to look. No doubt Gabriel and Claudia have an MO (as do P&E) but the FBI are handicapped because they don't know what it is, it's lost in the volume of the DC area. If they knew that "Boris" liked to meet in parks, avoided trains and liked dead letter drops in cemeteries , then they put the pavement artists (to use the Le Carre phrase) to work on those points. I'm interested in just what the FBI know about P&E,its a bit of a game I guess: 1 married couple 2 2 kids 3 the wife is pretty 4 he had an ID based on a dead child and the odds are that's the same for all their IDs 5 they are Caucasian Is that it? I think the Feds should start cracking that list, swamp the streets by the Rezidentura (or any Russian premises) and keep at it until a KGB officer slips up or they get lucky. My money is on a TV world equivalent of a defector.

Stan's instincts told him the Jennings were a bit "off" but even in the suburbs there would be drugs stashes, illegal guns, tax dodging - even a long avoided parking ticket that might get an apparently law abiding citizen a bit twitchy when a fed moves in next door. So Stan had a vibe and was actually quite sensible in agreeing he was over reacting. yes , he's no Peter Guillam let alone George Smiley but tbh with the data to hand and no one to interrogate- would George Smiley break the network? The FBI needs intelligence and systematic use of it. They need a defector with access to the illegal project; without that they need to get a list of married couples with 2 kids in the DC/N Virginia/S Maryland area and start checking them. Good luck with that!

It's been a long time since I read most of the books but thank you for expressing a thought that's been nagging at my mind - was George really this vile in the books? They do seem to have ramped that up in P15; in the books iirc Carey was much more business minded, seeing George's feud with Ross as a distraction

I'm not saying it's the only factor but I think it's contributory. It needn't have been constant at all - just enough to embarrass and humiliate him in front of those he wanted to see him as an equal and Damage done. Ross had a reputation as a tearaway before joining the army and may have been a bit rough around the edges as a boy - especially with a probably socially awkward new arrival such as George. Your grandfather is a blacksmith, Revd Halse your teacher and Ross and Francis amble in with all the carelessness in the world. You'd be nervous and then the horseplay starts and you don't know how to deal with it - your family want you to be a gentleman so you try to rise above it - but the anger it leaves is immense. I think that in his nigh breakdown in his confrontation with Elizabeth, we saw George's real self - someone who wants acceptance (by both the woman he had loved - possibly as long as Ross - and Society). His problem is that he grasps at it so hard, he breaks it. I think he knew he was doing wrong when he found against the serving girl in court and he's lost for words when he's confronted over his voting record as an MP but he's in too deep to change. This is all based on Jack Farthings superb portrayal of George so it's all moot in real terms- I saw the boot in the sand as a gesture - he may just have been about to fall over.

I think Verity is still in Lisbon.... It'll be interesting to see if George does make some kind of reparation and if tom Harry is simply written out. Jack Farthing acted his face off - showing the deep seated insecurities that drive his rivalry. Did you notice the nervous tic with his foot on the beach scene with Ross? Excellent acting. Don't forget that in part Ross created George - what may have been borderline bullying or exclusion in school was probably just a laugh for Ross while for George it was more evidence that his "betters" were his enemies.

I think Rowella was playing the long game more or less from the off. I too wondered if that was Arthur with George. That wasn't a riot, it was a plot device! Seriously, I don't think it would have been a riot until a magistrate had "read the riot act" and handed the matter over to the troops. So Ross could have ended up on trial if he'd given the order to open fire. Youll notice that the militia wasnt drawn from the entire community and wasn't a nation under arms.

Right now I'd say her problem is getting George, to........"cooperate" with that idea.....

I'd have to agree; I don't see how on current showing, the FBI in general and S&A in particular have much hope of breaking the network. We saw them pick up the pace once Martha was exposed but that was playing catch up. I enjoy watching Stans story and I think he was originally a good field agent who was sent undercover into a white supremacist group because he looked the part and could play it. He's now quite damaged I think which explains why we see only flashes of brilliance. And the FBI I suspect - thought long term sleeper agents to be a purely British problem....

Yes George is the villain; no doubt. That said, I have some nagging sympathy for him; his family has dragged itself up by sheer hard work (far harder than Francis has encountered) and he has worked hard to achieve social skills to suit his station. At school he may have simply wanted to be accepted and took any hint of rejection or horseplay to heart. Yes, Is implacable in his desire to do better than Ross and bring him low. He has a veneer, inside he's a fury of resentment and why the hell not? He is far more able than many of the old moneyed relics. As for his love for Elizabeth - if the Chynoweths had had an ounce of sense they'd have spotted that this rich, capable, quite charming member of the nouveau riche could give them security and access and that he actually loved her. That's a better deal than either Poldark. Being fools and old money, they didn't. George is a villain and quite arguably damned but though I dislike him, I've stood with my nose against that window too. He's a good man lost and that's not pathos, that's tragic.

Precisely

The thing is though, I like Francis. I enjoyed reading about him and what has to come across is that he's a loser but still has good qualities and becomes aware of his failings.

I'm not sure if it's a bit harsh calling HA a stalker. This is a 1790s story, written in 1940/50s (say) now being viewed in 2017. That is a lot of lense to look through. In 1795, if you were a fashionable young officer or gentleman, one of your main entertainments was visiting houses where you had been introduced to the Lady (and any eligible daughters). This could be innocent or not and a steady drip of scandal suggests that morality wasn't what we'd expect (the outward primness of the Victorian era was a reaction against the more openly flexible Regency). So even if HA wasn't a lovestruck young wannabe poet, he'd probably be calling around anyway - to a certain mind, Demelza's common background would be suggestive of an open boudoir door. If she had a boudoir. HA's mistake is that he's OBVIOUS about this and risks scaring the horses. That's the problem for the 1790s, he is not being discrete. If this was set in Bath or London, you'd not be able to open the front door without a young toff or Guards officers swanning in to say good morning.

So you amble over to Nampara and ask if Mistress Poldark is at home - no, you're told, she's in Truro/picking bluebells/smuggling grain but will be back shortly. Oh, you say, I have this book of poetry/watercolour/thing for her, may I wait. As you're a gentleman you're let in, given a cup of tea and parked in a chair pending the arrival of the lady of the house. That's how a gentleman would manage it - the warning would be if you were told she "might be some time" in which case you'd leave your card and bail out sharpish keeping a weather eye open for large dogs and angry looking husbands. As it's Nampara, Prudie would let you in even if you were the Citizen Commissioner of Public Safety with a portable guillotine under your arm.

Funnily we were just discussing Rowella - I think that she is trying to distract Whitworth from Morwenna but is ALSO playing her own game. She clearly thinks she can handle him on her terms; good luck with that. I like GC; he's well played and it'd be good to see the character grow up and do his stuff (spoiler avoided) but that means we'd be into the 2nd generation books so perhaps not eh? Yes, Ross should have said that out loud to Demelza but I'd not have bet on it going down well; don't know why - you think it'd work but it's TV land so who knows? The BBC certainty used the "I still love her" quote in the trailer. Ah, maskirova!

As I've commented on another thread - I've compartmentalised the books and both TV series from each other and am simply going with P15+ as Sunday night TV. It was good to see top class weapons handling by the Nampara Fusileers during the prison break; so just cocking the musket loaded it eh? Ahem. Wouldn't get away with that if Mr Sharpe was about. Good pic in the thread above; it may be beer holding posture but looking at Jack Farthings forearm, he looks more of a blacksmith than Drake Carne does! My theory which I'm making up as I type is that the overiding premise is that Ross is The Hero of The Production. Thus the books are getting bashed out of shape to keep that premise flying; he's a hugely flawed character that lost a lot of my sympathy after what in P15 became a night of passion as opposed to what it was - rape. I've read the books since I was 13 and he's one of my favourite characters but - I'd convict him. Oddly the blokes I know who watch P15 are far less forgiving than the ladies who watch it. Curious.

It's been said before, I think, but for me there are four phases of Poldark - P75, the original books, the later books and now P15. I don't recall too much of P15 (I was 12) except that I enjoyed it. The early books were different and I devoured them - book 1 in particular; as a 13 year old boy it was a hell of a read and I have to wonder to what extent I absorbed some of Ross's values. I enjoyed the later books less and am now happy to simply enjoy P15+ for what it is. I don't get into the plot differences too much tbh. I do have a few observations though and I'll do a separate post for each. George - I think JF is doing a great job; he is physically different to the books but he is delivering a different George to Ralph Bates. He seems far better integrated into Society but there are moments when he is clearly mastering the rejection he feels. Outwardly calm you can see he is seething; he's not going to be a redeemed villain; the tragedy is that there are moments (such as when he's sat as a Magistrate) when it looks as if he realises what he's doing but he suppresses any instinct to do the right thing. Francis - I think he gets short changed in the TV versions; he's a loser but he's always compared to Ross. When he's good he's a great character to read and watch; if he'd decided to go home and read to Geoffrey Charles instead of go down the mine, the books could have ended happily there. There was a point in P15 when Ross, Francis, Dwight and Blamey were gathered in a huddle and it reminded me of "Tombstone" - a posse of principled men who could have taken on the Warleggans. Different story of course. I like the character and he is what he is because not all blokes are Ross, most of us are just trying to get by and succeed only in making utter arses of ourselves.