The Morning Star

Yeah that really did undermine the race in S4 for the seals, I like to think the race for the seals in S4 was a part of Chuck's original script, after all both sides were following it. I wouldn't call it endorsement, with Chuck's presence they just went with it.

The show has made one thing clear so far, the angel kind were made to follow orders, they are lost and inefficient when exposed to free will. Cas is no exception to that and I don't like it but it is what it is. As for Crowley, he didn't make the decision to keep Lucifer in his possession with his brain, he was deeply humiliated and wanted a revenge which is understandable considering he was half cured and regained some of his lost humanity

Well I'd argue it was Cas who made the decision and nobody has ever accused him of being bright.

If they have the rings, that would render the entire race of the last season to entrap Lucifer meaningless. Ressurecting Rowena is a possibility although we don't know if the broken winged Angels are able to ressurect anyone now. I'm telling you, after all these season defeating Lucifer has been a little away from impossible, first time Dean got beaten to death, Sam had to commit suicide and Bobby and Cas were killed. The second time, not only it took a rift in space time created by a Nephilim, Crowley had to commit suicide, Cas was killed and Mary got stuck in an alternate universe with Lucifer. There's too much investment in this character now, the show can't have Lucifer easily defeated without making everybody look like huge buffoons.

A point that I'd like to add is that while Lucifer has not often been shown to look "scary" in recent seasons, his actions and how vulnerable he makes the heroes look is sufficiently terrifying for me personally. I like strong bad guys or "heels" in pro wrestling as it will always mean more when they are finally defeated, that's why I'm looking forward to the final war between Team Free Will and Lucifer as his final defeat and demise will be a focal point in the show, it will have a huge pay off.

Death handed Dean his own weapon, Unless they get their hands on an Archangel Blade somehow it has been proven for 12 seasons that they cannot kill Lucifer on their own. As for Death, he was always the odd one for me, I never thought he fit in the mythology.

Exactly! Our Cas is blue eyed Seraphim Cas just as our Dean is like our Dean and our Sam is our Sam. Nephilim altered urine golden Cas is not our Cas.

We just disagree then, just remember liking or not liking something doesn't mean that thing is good or bad. Opinions are subjective, Facts aren't, they're objective. So while you can like Game Of Thrones, no one can claim the show would've been as big as it is today if It had the budget of SPN and lacked the sexual/violent antics that it has today. Period. As for my TV show viewing experience, I've seen a lot of them and I say what I say with certainty, Supernatural has some top notch lead characters and the drama of the first 5 seasons ranks very high and unique in terms of acting and story and mythology.

You need to look at Supernatural pre swan song and after swan song, differentiate and then compare. Pre Swan song, I'd argue the canon and story of Supernatural was among the best and maybe even the best I had seen until then, perfect family drama, good acting and wonderful characters, one of the highlights of season 4 and 5 for me was this show's incredible ability to make the most out of the least. Just look at the angle effects for one How simple yet beautiful was that? And then you have the brilliant support characters that the show had, characters like Gabriel, Zachariah and ect. Pre Swan song, Supernatural is a top 5 in my ultimate best shows of all time and that's a huge achievement for a show on CW of all places because let's face it, CW doesn't mean good quality. After Swan Song, although flashes of brilliance did indeed occur within this show, I can arguably say that only reason I watch Supernatural today is because of Dean, Cas and Sam because although the quality of writing has significantly decreased, man, these characters are great! And this is coming from someone who's seen everything from Lost and 24 to Mentalist and The Walking Dead and Fringe, rarely have I seen so many grade A main characters in a show. Mentalist had Patrick Jane, Fringe had Walter Bishop and ect but Supernatural has Dean Winchester, Sam Winchester and Castiel! You cannot compare what Kripke did and these characters have done on CW with what They've done with GOT on HBO with all that money in good faith and call GOT which is a glorified Porn/Violence hybrid a better overal show. Sure after Swan Song the writing quality of it maybe superior to SPN but that and the massive budget and the "attractive" Porn/Violence cocktail it has are the only things that GOT has on SPN. I find it silly to assume GOT would've been viewed as much as it is now if all the Sex and Nudity and violence were taken out of it. I firmly stand my ground that GOT is what a hormoned up 16 year old would've dreamt of and way inferior as a television show than perhaps most of what I've seen on TV.

I hope it's our own real Seraphim Cas not some mutated Nephilim creation.

I did not say it was written for 16 years olds, I said the show is the fantasy of hormoned up 16 year old boys, whether or not you like the said fantasy who am I to say you should or shouldn't like something. It's just that because it entertains you for whatever reason, doesn't make it a well written piece of political philosophy. Let's just not pretend it is something more than what it actually is.

I'd argue the opposite. The children in charge of this show maybe too incompetent today but we complain that these writers kill characters to "shock" us in the finale every now and yet, that's GOT on a normal day. I'm sorry but introducing busses full of characters only to kill them and replace them with another buss full of characters in 2 episodes is no "good writing". I'm also unable to see the complex political maneuvering that you speak of, All I've seen so far has been molten gold/silver, behadings, lots of blood and sex.

Let's talk GOT for example, these are some of the scenes I remember from the show: Emila Clarke getting penetrated from behind by Jason Momoa . Some dude I can't remember teaching two girls how to lick and drool over each other. A couple of dudes having sex. Somebody getting a blowjob and ect ect. Shows like Game Of Thrones are the fantasy of a hormoned up 16 years old Boy, tons of sex, nudity and violence and all of them for the sake of Nudity and sex and violence as opposed to serving a purpose in telling story. What I've seen and heard from Ackles so far suggests he has a set of standards and rules, perhaps an appearance in a show like GOT would give it a mere minute of something that resembles a show.

I didn't know HBO made shows..... Most of what I've seen resembles softcore and at times hardcore Pornography. I have a general problem with today's TV and Movie environment, you can't have male and female characters interact anymore without some sort of "Romantic" (Sexual angle) unless they are blood And even that is slowly becoming another "outdated" limitation that we need to get rid of. A few years ago at least you were content that two same sex human beings were able to interact with no sexual Angle and now today, because everything is an election and everybody must feel included even two dudes or gals cannot inhibit the same space without a hint of sexual Angle or irrational fans forcing their illogical shipping down everyone's throats. So yeah, I truly believe today "whoring" out on Televesion has become a virtue and being prude has become a negative attribute for losers.

Kinda OT but I never understood why in today's society being prude is considered a negative trait. One of the main reasons I like Jensen Ackles is that he's a guy with standards and in today's overly sexualized movie/TV show environment it's breath of fresh air knowing there is still good looking guys like Ackles who wouldn't like to whore themselves out on tv whenever they could because it's "cool" and the new social standard.

That's just over sensitive on Sheppard's part imo specially when their social media guy misspelled Pellegrino's name as well. I'm gonna go on a limb and guess contrary to what everybody might think, whatever happened between Sheppard and the Writers/Producers recently was the last straw as opposed to it being the actual and only reason for his departure. And given their history, I can see both Ackles and Collins having reacted in a different manner if the issue was black and white. I think, while Sheppard like any other actor can understandably be pissed with the way his character is handled, here he may have projected a rather excessive view of his sense of self-worth towards the show which may have ruffled the feathers of the children who are writing this show over in L.A and in return they dumped his character to perhaps send of message of "shove it" to Sheppard. Which is a shame if true.

Gabriel. Nuff said.

If Lady Toni Bevell and that vegetarian black gay witch are Dabb's idea of a new era, I rather have Kirpike's recycled draft. Besides, Heaven and Hell need to be in the background now but you can't get rid of them.

Supernatural works it's best when it's centered on the brothers and the focus of the show is the struggle of the brothers with something rather than the focus on that thing standalone. I think it's a part of the reason why the show seems weaker these days, back in the olden days you had the story of Sam and Dean and their biggest threats guest starring , these days, the theat itself gets equal and sometimes even more screen time than the brothers. Which could've been fine if the show could've done better than a bunch of teenagers and some hallway as "Heaven" and "angels". If you can't pull it off then don't bother, let it stay a mystery, let our imaginations go wild. I vividly remember how when Cas was shown to possess Jimmy, he was probably standing under a spotlight and yet that simple spotlight scene some how is worth more than this worthless blue floating thingy that they have now for angles that ironically takes more of a time to put together.

I always thought the use of demon blood was to strengthen Sam's body for Lucifer more than anything. Sam wasn't evil and he wasn't born evil. may have hoped the blood would change his nature but little did they know that while you can amplify or suppress someone's nature, you can never change it. They effectively used Sam's devastated mind after Dean died and manipulated him to do what they wanted to without him realizing it...and let's face it, Sam's only recently behaving like an adult so I'd call him a stupid, arrogant child not evil. So yeah, they might have chosen him not because he was evil but because his nature made him vulnerable against evil.

Actually I think it has proven the opposite, Sam is still a good person despite being tainted by demon blood after he was born. While many others may have failed he didn't...outside may have an influence in what's visible about someone but at the end of the day, what's inside takes the cake.

No you didn't read what I said carefully, I said the Nephilim will be a villain, Evil? I don't know. I firmly speculate that Jack has been very aware of his surroundings for the majority of time: -He saw a possible future. -He manipulated Cas to use him as his very own puppet. -Killed Dagon to escape his dad as he felt the threat. -Opened a rift in space time to entrap his father getting Cas killed in the process. -Despite showing possessive of the ability to resurrect humans, did not resurrect his own mother. Now I find it silly to assume the boy is gonna "learn" anything from Sam or Dean or Cas (if he can and chooses to rebuild him). Even if he truely means to create a universe without pain and suffering which is disputed at best, doing so is impossible without undermining the freedom of will or attempting a large scale purge of possible undesirables, neither of which are stuff either of the brother son would put up with. So evil or not evil, this creature cannot be on the same side as Sam and Dean unless he is to be depowered or contained or killed. His hubris and pride is his biggest failure, without them he's be virtually undefeatable.

I'm guessing he'l end up being a master strategist/puppet master who despite meaning to purge the suffering from world chooses a path that contradicts the principle of free will and/or a Cain like purge of possible "undesirables". Neither of which either brothers would put up with. And that's the best case scenario for him IMO.

I'm convinced he also caused the rift to entrap his father.

Nothing shown to us so far has implied anything but the fact that this "child" is well aware of his surroundings. I just can't see him as anything but a villain, he's either evil like his father or just does stuff that puts him opposed to the boys.period.