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Idahoforspn

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    All Episodes Talk: Saving People, Hunting Things

    in Supernatural

    2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

    Maybe Dean wasn't being tortured in Hell for those 6 months but was just in a holding cell until the Trickster decided to bring him back?

    I think the Trickster actually made a comment to the effect that Dean was being tortured in hell. 

    2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

    But if he was being tortured that means Dean was in Hell for a total of 100 years and 100 days if every month = a year.

    Maybe Dean doesn't remember the first 60 years of Hell because the trickster reset time but maybe when Dean got back to Hell, but during that break it gave Alastair more time to devise new ways to make Dean suffer so he would break  This actually makes me feel a little better about Dean breaking after 4 months or 40 years  vs John lasting 100 years. So then it really took Alastair and Co. more than 100 years for Dean to break. New Head!canon ...accepted. LOL

    That's always been my head Canon although I've been told I'm wrong.

    All Episodes Talk: Saving People, Hunting Things

    in Supernatural

    · Edited by Idahoforspn

    1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

     

     

    • Mystery Spot wasn't a pocket dimension, Gabriel created a time loop where the same day was repeated over and over and over again. At the end, he just reversed time again, but turned off the auto repeat, so to speak. So, like Wishful Thinking, technically the deaths never happened, but they did happen...my head hurts.

    And Dean did spend six months in hell being tortured without breaking. My head hurts too.

    Quote
    •  

    All Episodes Talk: Saving People, Hunting Things

    in Supernatural

    1 hour ago, Wayward Son said:

     

    Why would his deaths by hellhounds and Metatron not count? As far as I can recall they took place in this timeline and this world? I'm not sure how it could be argued they don't count as they belonged to mystery spot like alternative dimensions? 

     

    I guess I wasn't very clear. I think hellhound and Metatron count but mystery spot and purgatory don't. Sorry.

    • Love 1

    Supernatural Bitterness & Unpopular Opinions: You All Suck

    in Supernatural

    5 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

    Right. One episode. Two if we include "Afterschool Special," but that episode wasn't really sympathizing with Sam as much as showing Sam that his dreams really weren't important anyway and that he should have given them up for family.

     

    I got exactly the opposite out of after school special. Sam left that school having been encouraged by a teacher to follow his own dreams and that's just what he did. He studied hard and went off to college. It wasn't until after Jessica's death that he gave up his dream (sort of) and he gave it up for revenge. Also in After School Special, Sam was shown as the one in the end who fit in and had friends. Dean was shown as the outcast.

    5 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

    That's's generally been the stance of the show. Even "Just My Imagination" re-established that in a way - i.e. that hunting is what Sam should've been doing in that Sully admitted that he had been wrong about thinking that Sam should've run away from hunting.

    But as a kid, Sam was shown as ex cited about hunting and all Sully did was say he shouldn't have discouraged Sam from doing what he wanted to do then. And this was before After School Special in Sam's life so he hadn't decided he didn't want to hunt.

    5 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

    Except John. In my opinion, it's not really until mid season 3 that Dean starts to realize that his childhood was maybe not so great. He waxed poetic to Sam about the beer can wreath

    I got the impression Dean was just trying to come up with something to say their Christmas's hadn't been totally pathetic. Pretty sad when a beer wreath is all you can come up with in my opinion.

    5 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

    He waxed poetic to Gordon about his first werewolf hunt and how lucky he had been to make a difference like that at 16 when everyone else was just worrying about pimples and prom.

    I could be wrong because I haven't watched that one lately but didn't Dean say something to the effect that that was a turning point where he decided to embrace the life. If he hadn't embraced the life before then he must have had some kind of problem with how his life was previous to that.

    5 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

    ItIt could be argued that in the "Afterschool Special" flashback, teen Dean bragging about having his freedom was just boasting, but he seemed to be fairly genuine until that girl called him out.

    In my opinion, Dean was making the best of what he had. I don't believe for a moment that he would have taken his freedom over having John around more.  In my opinion, he would also have had more freedom, not less, if John had been around to be Sam's parent more.

     

    5 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

     

    As for the shifter, I agree that Dean likely had some dreams he gave up for Sam until Sam finished school, but there was no reason, in my opinion, that Dean had to stay to "take care of Dad" after Sam left for school.

    This was after Dean was 16 and embraced the life. Personally, I think he probably somewhere deep down felt he didn't have a lot of options by then.

    5 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

    Dean and John were already hunting sometimes on their own. I my opinion, Dean either stayed because hunting was what he wanted to do, or because it was easier and was what he knew. Neither thing had anything to do with Sam leaving, and I think the blame the shifter placed on Sam for that was unwarranted. And if hunting is in Dean's blood and/or it's what he loves, couldn't it just as easily be said that Dean gave up his other dreams to keep hunting because he loves it and it gives him a purpose? That has nothing to do with sacrificing for Sam either.

    Sam tried. He decided that staying and hunting with Dean was worth giving up his dreams of going back to school for, and that's what Sam did.

    Sam didn't go back to school because he wanted revenge. And by the time he got revenge ( YED  dead), he was on soul saving duty.

    5 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

    And Sam confirmed that he thought that his decision had been worth it in "What Is..."

    Sam was trying to convince Dean that it had been worth it for Dean.

    5 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

    And it wasn't really Sam's fault that he was then killed and Dean sold his soul for him.

     

    I agree there.

    5 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

    As for before that when Sam was younger... sometimes just wanting something doesn't mean it's going to be. I would love to have maybe toughed it out a couple more years at home for my sister, but my mother and I just didn't get along. Period. Staying would've meant more fights and a toxic environment. Sometimes you just have to go for your sake and everyone else's and hope that maybe it was just you who didn't quite fit - which Sam likely thought - and that it will get better after you're gone... or even if you think it might not.

    But Sam didn't remain in contact with Dean either. He broke off all contact with both of them.

     

    5 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

    What Dean wanted was never going to be. It just wouldn't have worked... well unless Sam and John both changed their personalities and/or

     

    Or they actually tried to grow up a little and learn to give and take instead of just doing the easiest thing which was blow up at each other. Maybe they needed an anger management class so they could learn how to behave like adults. 

    5 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

     

     

    5 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

     

    So we'll have to agree to disagree.

    Yes. We just see things differently.

    5 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

    But then we couldn't have "Sam is wrong," and how can we forget to add that in every. Single. Season? (Post Gamble - who I thought was very good about not making things either of the boys' fault - damn I miss Gamble.)

    See above "Sam is wrong" explanation.

    As I've said previously, I was enjoying season 10 until they just had to go the "Sam is careless and starts another apocalypse" route. I'm so, so tired of that recently. Again, I miss Gamble.

    I have said before and will say again, I think the writing for both brothers (and Castiel, and Crowley ) leaves a lot to be desired. Especially this year.

    • Love 5

    All Episodes Talk: Saving People, Hunting Things

    in Supernatural

    18 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

    According to the Supernatural Wiki the main characters have had the following deaths. 

     

    Dean Winchester (2) 

    • Killed by Hellhound (3x16) 

    • Killed by Metatron (9x23) 

     

    Sam Winchester

    • Killed by Jake (2x22) 

    • Killed by his decision to jump into the cage (5x22)

     

    Castiel (5)

    • Killed by Raphael (4x22)

    • Killed by Lucifer (5x22) 

    • Killed by Levithians (7x02) 

    • Killed by the reaper possessing April Kelly (9x03)

    • Killed by Lucifer (12x23)

     

    What other deaths is the wiki missing? Off the top of my head I know they've missed

     

    • Dean's deaths in Mystery Spot (though these are arguable I suppose as they took place in a pocket dimension created by Gabriel if I remember correctly)

    Just my opinion but if Dean's 6 months in Hell here don't count because it's an alternate timeline, then his deaths don't either.

    18 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

    • Sam and Dean's death at the hands of Rory and Walt during Dark Side of the Moon.

    These should definitely count I think.

    18 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

    • Dean's time in purgatory... Does it count as a death? Or as dimensional travel akin to travelling back in time or going to the Alt!Dimension?

    I don't think this was ever presented as Dean dying. I actually think Dean said, during the discussion  of Sam not looking for him,  " I wasn't dead" in response to Sam saying that he thought Dean was dead.

    Supernatural Bitterness & Unpopular Opinions: You All Suck

    in Supernatural

    · Edited by Idahoforspn

    1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

    I disagree with this to an extent in that I agree with @catrox14 that Sam can't know what it was like, just as Dean can't ever know what it was like to grow up not feeling quite "right" or feeling like you don't quite fit anywhere,

    Dean knew exactly what it was like to not feel like he fit in anywhere. It could be argued that his childhood was more difficult than Sam's. Sam had Dean as a pseudo Mom and Dad because, as Dean said to Mary, Dad was a "shell" of a man. Who did Dean have? And it was thrown in Dean's face a lot that his family didn't need him like he needed them. It is Canon that Dean was the buffer between Sam because of what he wanted and John and what he wanted from Sam. Who cared about what Dean wanted. We are never given anything to show either Sam or his Dad were concerned about what Dean wanted. Actually, Dean said all he wanted was to be a family. Did  we ever see any effort by Sam or John to try for Dean's sake. According to the shifter, Dean had dreams too. Who cared about them. Who was there to steal Christmas presents for Dean? Who was there to give up Lucky Charms for Dean? Where was Dean's imaginery friend? I actually have more sympathy for Dean than Sam as far as their childhood. He didn't have anybody.

    Quote

     

    At least season 11 got closer, but we still got "why would you be lonely? You ad me."

    By Dean's own admission, he had been Mother and Father to Sam. He gave up his chance at a normal life for Sam and gave up his dreams to take care of Sam. I can understand why Dean doesn't understand why his total commitment and putting Sam ahead of his own needs wasn't good enough. Maybe Sam didn't have friends other than Dean but Dean didn't have friends other than Sam.

    Quote

    I'd' like to see an episode where Dean got some young Sam perspective and maybe understood it a little better...

    We got that with Just My Imagination. I hate that episode personally for IMO the retconning it did as far as how Dean took care of  Sam.

    Quote

    But generally it's the few times when Sam doesn't that are remembered and sometimes thrown back in Sam's face

    For me, it's not the times Sam doesn't remember, it's the times Sam rips into his brother. Like was mentioned earlier, we had Bad Boys and 5 episodes later we got the Purge. 

     

    Anyway, those are just my opinions for what they are worth.

    Quote

     

    • Love 10

    Spoilers With Speculation

    in Supernatural

    6 minutes ago, Reganne said:

    At the end of bad boys, Sam does thank Dean

    "Sam: Dean, thank you — for always being there. For always having my back. I know it hasn’t always been easy.
    Dean: I don’t know what the hell you’re talking about."

    This was after Sam came to realize how Dean lived those 2 months of his life.  The awards.  THe more normal life.  Sam had asked Dean why he left.  Dean said something about it not being for him.  Granted I'm paraphrasing because I don't know the exact words, but this "Thank you" from Sam came right after that conversation and I think Sam knew that deep down, Dean gave it up for him.

    And the next year we got The Purge.

    • Love 3

    Spoilers With Speculation

    in Supernatural

    2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

    I wouldn't have said it if I didn't understand it to be true.

    Uhhohhh. I didn't mean to sound like I didn't believe you.  Sorry!

    2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

    I have to find it but I remember him talking about Charlie's death and that he rarely goes to the producers to complain about things but he said he went to them about this. And said it was a bad idea. He also said this at AHBL#6 when Bob Singer talked about Charlie's death as where the story took them.

    I don't have a lot of use for Singer. I understand killing off Charlie if her episodes didn't do well in the ratings. I didn't care for her but Singer's justification was exactly what Jensen labeled it IMO.

    2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

    Spoilers With Speculation

    in Supernatural

    1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

     

    Jensen went to them and told them to not kill off Charlie.

     

    Is that true? If it is, it shows that Jensen doesn't have as much power bts as some folks think.

    Spoilers With Speculation

    in Supernatural

    2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

    Most shows at least call ahead of time rather that leave it for them to find out via the script. Especially an actor that's been on the show for a long time.  Someone like Eileen maybe they don't bother with doing that. but a character like Rowena, sure I think they would do a courtesy call at least. No, the actors aren't consulted in the sense of being able to lobby for their character to not be killed off necessarily. Jensen went to them and told them to not kill off Charlie. I don't know if that was only after he got the script or not.

    Jim Beaver was told ahead of time according to this from TV Guide 

     

    It will be interesting to find out what's real and what's misinterpretation regarding Ruth.

    Spoilers With Speculation

    in Supernatural

    Just now, Airmid said:

    It feels like an olive branch. I'm happy to see it. Seeing that it was within the last hour I wouldn't necessarily expect a response immediately. People be busy. 

    I was glad to see it to. Mark should be out celebrating...not checking Twitter :-)

    Spoilers With Speculation

    in Supernatural

    5 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

    I'm not sure I buy that. Ruth's comments before the episode aired suggests to me she knew.

     

    I don't know for sure. That's why all the "supposedly"s. It will be interesting to see what is the accurate quote.

    Spoilers With Speculation

    in Supernatural

    1 minute ago, Airmid said:

    It's not the first time a comment has been made by TPTB that has been completely oblivious to fan sentiment and it won't be the last sadly. It's not a unique phenomena to SPN either. It actually kind of feels like the showrunners could care less about telling a good story or treating their characters well as long as all the right buttons are hit. Which kind of makes me 'meh' on next season since I can kind of see where this road is heading and I'm not sure I want to be on it anymore. 

    I don't think that's cynical, I think that's realistic. 

    I also just saw a report that supposedly at PURCON, Ruth supposedly said she was not consulted or even told of her character's death before the episode. If that's true,  it is another reason to fire Dabb IMO.

    • Love 1

    Spoilers With Speculation

    in Supernatural

    8 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

    Bottom line - MS is pissed and won't be back.  Will he actually attend the Phoenix Convention?  If he does, well... for one thing, I think he'll get a standing ovation. And then a barrage of questions unless asking is verboten. I'll miss him drumming with Louden Swain.  

    Both Marks are accomplished versatile actors, but they got rid of the wrong Mark and the wrong character in this instance.  Crowley's just more entertaining.  And now there's this other Lucifer on another network who's killing it... 

    It's like Lucifer overload. Anyway, let's hope the adventures of Luci & Son works and the series is somehow rejuvenated. 

    Ditto

    5 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

    I think JP has the biggest promotional pushes across the board and I think some agent(s) is hard at work for that. Of course the CW promo person is besties with Genevieve Padalecki so there is some in-house advantage as well but overall I often question if Jensen`s management is sleeping on the job. 

    Jensen changed management so he must have seen a need. However, I haven't seen any improvements but maybe there have been.

    • Love 1

    Spoilers With Speculation

    in Supernatural

    20 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

    This makes me wonder where Bob Singer is in all of this brouhaha. 

    Singer might have learned to not be so public with his comments after Felicia. He said (at a con?) that if Felicia called up and said she had 4 days for filming SPN, they wouldn't say no. Felicia tweeted that she was "sitting by the phone.". I don't want Charlie back either and I have heard that her episodes did not do well in the ratings but, IMO, these guys say whatever they think will get them off the hook with fans without a lot of thought to how accurate the statement is. Yes I am cynical.

    • Love 3

    Spoilers With Speculation

    in Supernatural

    28 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

     

    Bottom line, is that kind of change does not happen willy nilly and it is significant. That said,  I don't think Misha's "and" credit has anything to do with Mark's departure and the Twitter brouhaha with Michaels. IMO those are completely separate things.

    Agreed!

    Spoilers With Speculation

    in Supernatural

    · Edited by Idahoforspn

    27 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

     IMO the "and" shouldn't even be a factor for Jensen. What I mean is that IMO the billing should be 

     

    Starring

    Jared Padalecki and Jensen Ackles (a joint first billing that indicates their equal role on the show.

    This!!

    27 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

    Thehe "and" credit is still secondary to a first billing) 

    Mark Pellegrino  (assuming he is still a regular next year) 

    And Misha Collins (again assuming he Is still a regular) 

     

    The fact that Jensen has been happy to allow Jared to maintain the first billing for twelve years suggests that billing placement isn't something that Jensen is overly concerned with.

    I think Jared was the top billed actor per his contract year one. There has been debate, but IMO, Jared was hired as THE lead actor originally and the first year Jensen wasnt considered co-lead. If that is the case and Jared had top billing in his contract, it would be next to impossible to negotiate it out. Jared would have to willingly give it up and that would be pretty not smart when thinking about his future after SPN.

    Quote


    Either way I really don't see it as being a potential source of amnosity between Jensen and Misha.

    I don't either. I had understood it was Jensen that went to bat for Misha's when Sera Gamble was trying to write him out of the show.

    They appear to be good friends.

    Quote

     

     

    However, I personally find it hard to truly consider Misha's billing as better than Jensen's when he receives NO billing for more than half the episodes..

    I find it personally hard not to feel  Jensen is being slighted when Misha apparently receives top billing when he does appear with Jensen. Misha is more important when he is in an episode than Jensen?

    Jensen and Misha are probably fine. That doesn't mean I have to be. :-)

    Supernatural Bitterness & Unpopular Opinions: You All Suck

    in Supernatural

    5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

    As a fellow Dean fan, I found it more disrespectful for show to go through all the trouble of making Dean into an asshole who allowed Gadreel to possess Sam without Sam's informed consent and continue to lie about it; by giving him bloodlust and made him a murdering murderer who murdered humans via the Mark of Cain; by having him murdered by Metatron and being resurrected by Crowley via the Mark of Cain which turned him into his worst nightmare, a demon, and then did fuck all with it in the end. 

    I couldn't stand them putting Dean through all THAT and breaking my heart and he didn't even get to use teleportation, flinging someone across the room with a flick of the hand nor the power to possess someone.  Not letting the character be fully empowered as all other demons were, especially when he had the Mark of Cain too, IMO, made the character into a bit of a joke.  The show itself made a joke of it with Sam referring to Dean's time of being a demon as Dean's 'Summer of Love" with Crowley, which I hated BTW.

    What I, and I think @ILoveReading, was suggesting was situational humor, which does not turn a person into the joke, but rather the humor is derived from the situation the person is in, like demons being summoned at really inconvenient times. Some viewers thought Dean being turned into a dog was funny and not disrespectful. Others felt it treated Dean being ripped apart and murdered by hellhounds as a joke because he was turned into a dog.  I miss the days of dark, quirky situational humor like a suicidal giant Teddy Bear or lines like "I have something in my throat....I think it's my throat" during a really dark episode. As always humor is in the eye of the beerholder...(or something like that LOL). 

    OK. Thanks for explaining.

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