Idahoforspn
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Posts posted by Idahoforspn
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27 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:
I think we've reached the point where it is safe to say Jared, Jensen and Misha won't be acknowledging Mark's exit. Pretty disappointed in the three of them if I'm honest :(
I'm really hoping they have talked to Mark personally and aren't doing anything on Twitter because of the firestorm following Jim Micheal tweet. No matter what they say, the fandom will erupt again so maybe better to say nothing on social media. We may hear something at the next con.
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5 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:
All I'm saying is Maybe Maybe Not.That's fair. I can agree there.
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9 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:
Also, wasn't there a different showrunner that started the Dean/Amara storyline than actually finished it? So, makes sense to me that the one who stepped in at the end didn't know, or understand, where the original had wanted to go with it.
That would make sense IF they had brought in a new showrunner from the outside. Dabb worked with Carver and should have a decent picture of whatever storyline they had.
9 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:Bututthe one who stepped in at the end and started the Dean/Mary sl is the same who carried it through to this season - so it's possible that even then he knew where he wanted to go with it.
Yes, it is possible. Listening to interviews and then listening to Jensen, I just don't think they were interested enough in the Dean/Mary storyline to have really planned it that well from the beginning. I think they planned Deans story would be how he dealt with his Mom being back. That's what they said in the early interviews when it was actually mentioned. IMO, having it down to Dean needed to forgive his Mom was a lot deeper and more specific than they had developed the storyline. IMO, they only had a simple Dean has to figure out his relationship with Mom which is how they presented it preseason.
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1 minute ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:
I don't know. It just doesn't seem plausible to me that the writers would write Amara telling Dean, "I'm going to give you what you need the most" - which was then Mary - when she'd (Amara) had just experienced forgiveness and reconciliation with her brother - but they didn't know that forgiveness (and eventual reconciliation) was the reason Amara gave Mary back to Dean.
The PTB have told us many times that they often write a finally with no real idea how they are going to handle it the next season. It is more than reasonable, it is probable they had no idea where they were going with that statement. They didn't have a clue, by their own admission, and never really figured out where they were going with the Dean/Amara storyline either.
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16 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:
Anyone know when the S12 dvd will be released? I don't usually pay attention to such things, since I'm usually a season or two (or more) behind in buying show dvds anyway - but I am interested in getting this one and seeing some of the behind-the-scenes stuff.
You can pre-order it on Amazon right now.
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16 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:
This is the thing. The Crowley character could mix in with all manner of storylines whether they be arc or MOTW, he could pop up to help or cause chaos for the Winchesters. But Lucifer's only got one mission - his son and the destruction of all. A bit of a thin arc. How can it last? Or be interesting? I get the impression even dedicated fans of the show have grown weary of Lucifer. The 'other' Lucifer is way more entertaining.
Maybe Dabb thinks he can mirror the "other" Lucifers success on SPN. Maybe he thinks he can spin off something with him. Please tell me this is just my wild imagination. I am much more than just tired of our Lucifer.
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6 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:
That`s why I do not consider this redemption. The show it relatively good at getting me to loathe characters but they really suck in getting me back on board with a redemptive story. It`s almost always exactly the wrong thing that puts me off even more.
I'm this way too. It's one of the big fails of the writers. They don't seem to have a clue how to redeem a character. The best effort I have seen in a while was Mick. They at least developed it over a couple of episodes.
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2 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:
Yeah, the consistency on nephilim this year was pretty appalling (even if we ignore the nephilim we saw in season 8, because it was presumably not an archangel's kid). If Cas thought Lily Sunder was alive after having a nephilim, then why was Dagon saying Kelly would die a few episodes later? I think to myself that maybe Dagon, being a demon is just being an ass to make it sort of make sense to me, but then Cas actually tells Kelly that having the nephilim will kill her in The Future. What the what?
The showrunner should be making sure the scripts/ writers are integrated. I actual blame most of the writing problems on the showrunners.
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9 minutes ago, Binns said:
Jared looks more rested...he was nearly incoherent (but hilarious) in his morning session- don't think he had slept much at all!
Have to admit I only watched part of Jared's. I don't know if this happened in Jared's solo but in Jensen's, one of the questions was about how Sam felt about something.
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4 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:
I find the biggest problem in the writers room is lack of communication. I don't feel like the writers talk to each other.
I tend to think they get together every so often and are given a vague outline like Mary's coming back and she has trouble connecting with her grown sons. Then I think each writer is left to interpret that how they want.
This is the first season where I felt like I couldn't connect with Dean. Even last season with the whole Amara storyline, Jensen was as confused as I was, but it was okay because I figured Dean was just as confused as I was. I could relate to that. But this season, I was never sure what I was supposed to be seeing from him. With regards to hunting, Mary, Lucifer, Kelly, etc. Valuim Dean has to be the most apt description of how I felt watching him this season. (I don't mean that in Jerk/Bitch, but just more of a description).
I'm glad it worked for Jensen, but I don't think it was anything more than a happy accident. Mostly because I didn't get that vibe from Dean. I didn't feel he was keeping her at arms length in the first few episodes. I felt like he was trying to find common ground. Things were awkward, and I understood Mary needing space.. Even afterward Dean tried to establish boundaries for the, Yes, Dean and Mary grew more distant as the season went on, but it came across on screen mostly because she was rejecting him, not because he needed to forgive her.
If Berens had planned it, but didn't tell Jensen, then there was no reason to keep it from the other writers so they can be consistent in their approach, and I didn't see that at all.
Don't get me wrong, I can easily see it as a motivation but its not one I think the writers were successful in getting across.
The whole thing reminds me of the disconnect between episodes by different writers on how a soulless Sam would act. There was no consistency between writers. Seems like the showrunner even admitted that but my memory may be wrong there. It has been obvious a number of times that there is to little coordination between writers. That's the showrunners fault in my opinion.
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5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:
. I think Sam is often the victim of his errors in judgment and Dean is made out to be an asshat for how he behaves and IMO in some way who he is as a person moreso than for the decisions he makes,
And I think that's a pretty fair assessment of the writing problems.
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5 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:
It always surprises me just how much anger is directed at the characters of Sam and Dean as opposed to the writers who make them do and say all of these ridiculous, out-of-character things. Both brothers have done some shitty things, made giant mistakes, etc., and it's the writers who made them do it. I'm sure part of it is to add to the drama and the angst between the brothers and also between the fans, but I think most of it is just bad writing.
Season 8 is always my go to example, because it was simply absurd to have Sam act the way he did. He would never have just ridden off into the sunset and not even attempted to look for Dean. He certainly would never have left Kevin to fend for himself against Crowley. He wouldn't have been annoyed that Dean was actually alive. His reaction to Benny was absurd, because Sam is the one who taught Dean that not all monsters are bad, so his immediate hatred of Benny just made no sense. Not to mention involving another hunter whose mental capacity was sketchy at best. And those are just a few examples from a few episodes in one season. The writers have 12 years of that type of writing.
I certainly get angry and upset over perceived slights to my favorite character, but it's the writers I blame for all of it. I just can't see them genuinely favoring one character over the other, especially when it comes to Sam and Dean. And if they truly were doing that, I would like to believe that both Jensen and Jared would stick up for themselves and each other in those instances.
I am a Dean fan, and I'd love for him to be in the center of all of the action and the hero in every scene. But this is a show with two main characters, and multiple secondary characters, so that's never going to happen. So instead, I wish the writers knew as much about their characters as the fans do, and cared about them even half as much. Then maybe they wouldn't write these bullshit scenes, and we wouldn't have to constantly be battling over who's the favorite, who's neglected, etc. Wouldn't it be nice to talk some great scenes in every episode instead? I have no issue with the characters being flawed, because all of us are flawed, but it should at least make sense. It can't be that difficult.
It always surprises me just how much anger is directed at the characters of Sam and Dean as opposed to the writers who make them do and say all of these ridiculous, out-of-character things. Both brothers have done some shitty things, made giant mistakes, etc., and it's the writers who made them do it. I'm sure part of it is to add to the drama and the angst between the brothers and also between the fans, but I think most of it is just bad writing.
Season 8 is always my go to example, because it was simply absurd to have Sam act the way he did. He would never have just ridden off into the sunset and not even attempted to look for Dean. He certainly would never have left Kevin to fend for himself against Crowley. He wouldn't have been annoyed that Dean was actually alive. His reaction to Benny was absurd, because Sam is the one who taught Dean that not all monsters are bad, so his immediate hatred of Benny just made no sense. Not to mention involving another hunter whose mental capacity was sketchy at best. And those are just a few examples from a few episodes in one season. The writers have 12 years of that type of writing.
I certainly get angry and upset over perceived slights to my favorite character, but it's the writers I blame for all of it. I just can't see them genuinely favoring one character over the other, especially when it comes to Sam and Dean. And if they truly were doing that, I would like to believe that both Jensen and Jared would stick up for themselves and each other in those instances.
I am a Dean fan, and I'd love for him to be in the center of all of the action and the hero in every scene. But this is a show with two main characters, and multiple secondary characters, so that's never going to happen. So instead, I wish the writers knew as much about their characters as the fans do, and cared about them even half as much. Then maybe they wouldn't write these bullshit scenes, and we wouldn't have to constantly be battling over who's the favorite, who's neglected, etc. Wouldn't it be nice to talk some great scenes in every episode instead? I have no issue with the characters being flawed, because all of us are flawed, but it should at least make sense. It can't be that difficult.
Exactly.
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5 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:
If it wasn't for Dean, they'd all be dead
They wasted precious time (and air) following Sam's plan, which amounted to nothing. If he'd just asked Dean what to do in the first place, they'd have been out a lot sooner and could have saved more American hunters, don't you know!
And that has nothing to do with not listening to Dean which was what I was commenting about.
5 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:Because the Mary Sue is always Right. And Sam didn't get to be the hero all alone - he went in with a whole team of hunters. Jodi shot Hess. Dean was the solo hero who single-handedly saved Mary.
Sam went in as THE LEADER of a bunch of hunters HE RECRUITED with his big speech. And IMO Jodi shot Hess because they didn't want Sam killing a human female which IMO is the same reason they had Ketch kill Toni.
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2 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:
Except in the end, Dean was Right about the BMoL (Sam should have just listened to Dean in the first place).
But Sam got to be the one to take them out beginning with the big hero speech. What good is it for Dean to be right when Sam gets to end the arc as the hero all alone.
2 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:Dean was Right about using the grenade launcher to get out of the bunker (Sam should have just listened to Dean in the first place.)
When didn't Sam listen to Dean. It was Lady Dead Now that didn't like the plan. Sam was never shown doubting Dean's plan.
2 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:Dean was Right about still being able to undo Mary's brainwashing (Sam believed Toni when she said it was irreversible. Toni should have never doubted Dean, who can undo the BMoL's preeminent brainwasher's work in a single afternoon!)
I'll give you that one. Dean doesn't give up when it comes to family. Hell fix it or die trying.
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6 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:
I kinda think Jensen wouldn`t ask the writers about his character`s storyline for a Season because given the givens I think that would be awkward as hell. Even the story he described with Berens sounds awkward. Do you, as an actor, really want to be slapped in the face by the writer being so disinterested they have no clue what you`re talking about? Keep the fantasy intact and keep quiet, I say.
Ok. I'll go with that!!
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1 minute ago, SueB said:
We know nothing about S13. Why do you think the alt universe is not a Dean storyline? Because he's not currently trapped there? Because, until they rescue Mary from there, I would surmise that it's going to be about getting BACK to the alt universe for the boys.
I hope your right and I'm wrong.. I was just going by what I have seen this season which leads me to believe alt universe is more a Cas, Mary, Nephilim, or even Luci storyline rather than Dean (or even Sam).
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4 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:
Because, as I said, I think it's best to let the actor decide how much information they need to know. Some actors prefer not to know anything more than their character knows.
And what makes you assume Jensen didn't want to know or didn't ask earlier? We found out quite a bit later that Jensen asked where the Dean/Amara storyline was going because he didn't understand what he was supposed to be portraying. That what you or I think Jensen should want to know or not want to know is in anyway indicative of what Jensen actually thinks is dreaming.
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1 minute ago, Aeryn13 said:
Stuff like jumping into the pit in Jesus pose and rallying all the US hunters by himself IS the problem for me. The characters don`t always have to do everything together and there can be solo wins but the conclusion of the first five years and a Series-long "story" as hunters brought for the first time ever onto a bigger playground with other hunters are things I wanted done together.
I think the stories the writers babble about most and most excitedly in interviews and at Comic Cons are where their interest lies.
Ditto
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5 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:
What is the point of getting to be the one jumping in to the pit say if eight years later large parts of the audience are still spend time learning to "forgive" earlier actions as several commenters in here have expressed.
Because the writers didn't realize that all the rest would not go away when Sam was given the huge hero moment culminating the arc. They thought , IMO, that the one big self sacrificing act would negate in the viewers mind anything Sam did in the past. We are back to the writers really don't understand that the viewers often interpet things differently than they intend us to.
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13 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:
I kinda think it would've been insulting to Jensen to sit him down and say, "We're bringing mom back because Dean needs to forgive her."
And why would it have been insulting to let an actor know where they are taking his character's story so the actor can plan how best to "sell it" consistently in his scenes throughout the season?
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29 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:
I've always found the argument "Sam is the writers favourite" to be a rather weak and biased one that doesn't hold up to much scrunity, as one only needs to look at the shows narrative to date to realise this is not true. In fact it is quite the opposite, usually the characters of Sam, and later on Castiel, are sacrificed in order to prop up Dean. They are made to be the villains of the piece, so that poor Dean has good reason to feel hard done by. Furthermore, when Sam and Cas mess up the consequences are usually wide reaching and hurt many. When Dean makes questionable decisions usually the biggest victim of said decision is Dean himself. Let's look at some of the key plot lines of the show that highlight this.
The Apocalypse Arc
Who is to Blame:
Dean: Initially it could be argued that the writers placed the blame on Dean when they revealed he broke the first seal. However, they took care to ensure that this reveal was made in the most sympathetic light possible and the blame placed on Dean was flimsy at best . He wasn't truly to blame because he was the victim of decades of torture, and it would be wrong of us to blame him for breaking under that type of pressure. It is for this reason that after season four Dean's part in starting the apocalypse is never spoken of again.
Sam: Instead the writers spend the entirety of season four ensuring that the blame is well and truly shifted to Sam. They portray him as an addict who gets off on the power that comes with feeding on demon blood. He is portrayed as arrogant and callous; for example he describes Dean as "too weak" due to the influence of his post hell PTSD. The writers have made little effort to make Sam sympathetic and instead many of the audience have to spend time learning to "forgive" Sam. This arc climaxes in Sam's murder of an innocent nurse. The writers have made sure there is no sympathy for Sam's plight by allowing the nurse herself to appear while the demon hid in her psyche, rather than simply keeping the demon evil before he killed her.
You didn't mention though how the writers decided to have Dean torture souls in hell for ten years if they were trying to make Dean look better than Sam. And yes, they had Sam do some awful unsympathetic things but then to end the arc they let Sam save the whole dang world ALL BY HIMSELF. Doesn't look to me like the writers intended Dean to have the redemptive arc and be the big hero.
QuoteSupernatural Ally: Ruby
She is the first major supernatural ally to act as a source of discontent between the main characters. Ultimately, Dean was proven right and Ruby was evil just as he said all along. Sam is left to look like a fool for trusting her and he gets blame for "picking a demon over me (Dean).
See above. Sam got to save the whole world all by himself in spite of his past mistakes. That's called a flawed hero.
QuoteThe Purgatory Arc
Who is to Blame: Castiel and to a lesser extent Crowley, but since Crowley was supposed to be a villain I'm going to focus on Castiel more. Once again there is a major conflict between the main characters in regards to handling a major issue. In this particular instance it's the question of; what are they going to do about the looming problem of Raphael and his plan to spring Michael and Lucifer out of the cage to get the apocalypse back on track? On the one hand you have the Winchesters, who as far as I can recall, offer no valid alternative to dealing with the problem. They simply object to Castiel's approach. Castiel on the other hand has a very concrete plan. He wishes to use the power of the souls in purgatory to gather the juice needed to stop Raphael.
If the shows narrative were truly interested in being neutral and fair to all involved then there would have been a better acknowledgment that the brothers had no valid plan of their own. Instead of painting Castiel's plans as utterly wrong they would have acknowledged it was a plan and tried to work together to smooth things out and lessen the risks the brothers were worried about.
Instead the show is more interested in sacrificing Castiel for the sake of propping up Sam and Dean. This is why sympathy for them is built by having Castiel lie to them and put them in dangerous positions, retrieve Sam's soul from the pit sans soul and of course break Sam's wall. Just as Sam was sacrificed in season 4 to prop up Dean and his pain Castiel is now being sacrificed to prop up both brothers. Of course the arc ultimately ends in disaster for Cas (thus vindicating Dean's objections) by it resulting in the Levithian debate.
And that wasn't a character sacrificed for Dean. You say yourself it was Sam AND Dean.
QuoteThe Post Purgatory Debate
Central Issue: Sam's decision to not follow the established pattern of going heaven and earth to save Dean.
Who is to Blame: Sam
If the show had approached this with the intent to keep all characters sympathetic then each of them would have had valid reasons for their behaviour. Dean's less than stellar behaviour would have still been explained by the hurt and betrayal he felt as a result of Sam's decision. Sam's decision would have also been explained in proper detail to keep the audience ability to relate to him. They could have easily highlighted that Sam genuinely believed that Dean was dead. That he saw an explosion and assumed it meant certain death rather than dimensional travel. They could have had Sam explain that he thought he was doing the right thing by allowing Dean to rest in peace, that he remembered how the last time he actively tried to ensure Dean's resurrection he spiralled into a pool of addiction and hubris and figured Dean would not want him to risk becoming that person again, that he did not want to become that person again. Then there is the fact that it was Dean's deal to save him that set in motion the events that led to the consequence. He could have explained he didnt want to risk tampering with the natural order and causing that type of widespread hurt again. A proper narrative like this would have given both brothers valid reasons for behaving as they did.
However, instead they opt to sacrifice Sam for the sake of propping up Dean and giving him a reason to resent Sam. They make him the victim of the narrative who was abandoned by his brother who drove off, knocked down a dog and shacked up with the girl. Dean was then forced to team up with a vampire ally instead.
The showrunner didn't realize he would get that kind of backlash for the Sam didn't look for Dean. He thought it was a good thing and by the time they reached the point in filming he could actually address it, I think he chose to just ignore it. Its seasons later we get Sam apologizing and I think that's because the backlash just wouldn't go away.
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12 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:
I think it's interesting that the only fans I see postulating that Sam is the 'favored' character are the biggest DeanFans.
Yes I am a Dean fan. However, I am not happy about the atrocious writing for Sam either. My dream scripts, even as a confessed Dean girl, would involve TWO badass hero hunters that we didn't have to argue which one the writers are screwing the worst.
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5 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:
I figured they went back to the demon blood because they were trying to tie up all the loose ends. Why did Yellow Eyes feed demon blood in the first place...Why'd the demons send Ruby to make sure he drank more blood and got more powerful...Oh yeah, the demon blood makes his body strong enough to hold Lucifer... .
I think the pulled it out of their ass at the eleventh hour simply to explain why it was needed in the first place. Big fail for me, but it wasn't the only big fail they've ever done.
Ruby told him before Lucifer rose that he never needed the blood. So I was very unhappy that now Sam apparently needed to drink gallons of it from demon possessed bodies. And also, if they did the moral thing and got the blood from a meatsuit that was already dead as opposed to one living and just possessed, would there even be blood still running through the veins. If the demons could keep the heart pumping and blood running, why did the meatsuits even die?Inquiring minds want to know.
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15 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:
Whereas I saw none of this.
I saw a TON of it. However, most of it came from super fans who would never see anything Sam did as wrong. The mental gymnastics it took to put a 100% true on that speech were worthy of the Olympics IMO.
S12.E22: Who We Are/S12.E23 All Along the Watchtower
in Supernatural
What makes us believe Amara even knew anything about Mary and Dean's past? She was locked away for all that and didn't know what a cheeseburger was, let alone Dean's history with his mother. Crowley had to teach her world history. Nobody taught her Dean history that we ever saw. All the show really gave us on why it was Mom ,IMO, was the photo Amara found in the bunker. That photo was of a loving Mom and her little boy. Knowing nothing of Dean's history, I can see her wanting to give Dean someone who would LOVE him unconditionally. That's what Amara and Chuck finally realized too. They loved each other (which was a little uncomfortable but that's just me). The photo and the generic concept of a Mother's love was enough for Amara to think that's what Dean needed. I have always felt since Amara said she was going to give Dean what he needed was that it was someone to love him. Forgiveness never even occurred to me all season long and the fact that Mary was so distant broke my heart because I thought Amara intended Mary to love Dean. If the "forgiveness" was intended from the beginning, the show didn't do a very good job of developing the concept for me. But I recognize there is more than one way to see it. I just wanted to articulate some additional thoughts I had.