Idahoforspn
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Posts posted by Idahoforspn
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Jared's on Twitter regarding AKF but nothing on Mark. Interesting.
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Just now, DittyDotDot said:
But, why was he jealous? I think he was jealous because this monster had managed to do something Sam failed to even consider doing--save Dean.
Yes. I think that was a big part of Sam's problem with Benny.
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5 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:
Because I don`t think THEY think they are writing him remotely like an asshole. Dean being hurt by Sam not looking in Season 8 was apparently their attempt to write Dean like an asshole because that feeling was wrong. Or something. Same with Mary. They wrote her bitchy as could be but Dean was the one who had to apologize for wanting to be babied.
The writers do this all the time. And consistently I don`t have the reaction I`m obviously supposed to have and worship/trash the respective character I`m supposed to. They are just not that good at their job IMO.
Maybe he can hold Sam`s water bottle or something. But yes, I totally agree. The pimping was so obvious in that scene. And the content itself ridiculous. "Oh well, I made a big mistake in falling in with the BMOL... well not so much in that really because now I figured out I`m a great leader so as a reward for me being a numbskull and you doing nothing wrong, you should stare at me in awe and worship me as your G...um, well, at least you should follow me".
+a zillion
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2 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:
For me, Sam's jealous reaction to Benny was born out of his own feelings of guilt for failing Dean--again. He didn't come out and say it, but his actions spoke volumes to me.
I couldn't see that in his behaviour at all. All I see is jealousy which is confirmed in the episode where Dean is under the influence of the cursed coin.
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6 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:
That's the biggest problem with the show and Sam's so-called flaws. I find it tends to put Sam's flaws down to other people's reaction to what Sam is doing rather than the actions themselves. What I mean is during season 4, Sam lied from the minute Dean showed up. He spent the season going behind Dean's back and lying. Dean tried, he even told Sam to keep his secrets, just stop lying. But somehow, none of that was wrong. It was wrong that Dean was angry about it and he had to apologize to Sam and prove he trusted him.
Same with S8. It wasn't wrong for Sam not to look, it was wrong for Dean to be hurt by it. After a season of Sam acting like he wished Dean stayed gone, and despite Sam's fancy words about looking after Dean and showing him the light, he did nothing to back up his fancy speech. Dean ended up having to support Sam all through the trial sand then end up promising that Sam will always come first for him, despite that fact it was Sam who has chosen other people over him.
Sam follows the Brits, that's not wrong, what was wrong was that he didn't try to lead them. Sam gets the fancy hero speech and now he's suddenly the leader. (I don't believe for one minute that won't carry over to next season. I'm sure Sam will singlehandedly organize all the American Hunters while Dean stands around silent.
This!
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7 minutes ago, companionenvy said:
I will never understand how people reconcile the belief that Sam is the obvious favorite of the writers with the belief that they are pretty consistently writing him as a total asshole.
Of course, I also find Sam a largely sympathetic character who has made major mistakes but has proven time and time again that he deeply loves his brother, so MMV.
I guess it's because the showrunners constantly talk about Sam this and Sam that even when asked something about Dean. Plus they gave us vallium Dean this season. And even Jensen said the story (series total) focuses on Sam.
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5 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:
I think the thought of such a storyline never entered Dabb`s mind but Berens was the writer of this episode so at least the scene itself should have had intentional content as he has written it. But apparently even that wasn`t the case. He just wrote... something and managed a lucky shot by accident. Well, even a broken clock is right twice a day.
+Two dozen
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8 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:
I hated the resolution of that episode with everyone harping on how Dean was so horrible with the text message and poor saint Sam had done nothing wrong whatsoever. Teflon!Sam at his finest.
This. Teflon Sam got old real fast.
8 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:During the first half of Season 8 I really saw no guilt from Sam in present time. He was downright self-righteous about his decision not to do anything and bemoaned that Dean came back to bother him in his pretty new life as if Dean needed to apologize for that. And this "get over it already" attitude? Seriously wanted to beat him black and blue in that period.
Unfortunately, that is the impression the writing gave me too.
8 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:-
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3 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:
No, because when Lisa was in danger Sam was supportive of Dean and the stress he was going through. Unlike Dean, who was the manipulative jackass who purposely caused Sam distress. He knew from his own experiences with Lisa and Ben how he was going to make Sam feel. So let us not pretend Dean is in any way morally superior in this situation.
Also let's not forget Dean is a competent hunter and Amelia is an innocent civilian. She is naturally the one in more need of his protection. If something had happened to Dean it would have been his own fault for causing Sam to leave in the first place.
Dean is a competent Hunter that was left chained, unconscious and without weapons to a radiator.
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3 minutes ago, Airmid said:
The major problem is that the writers let Sam do this. They let him run off and it was icky. It's what makes it so sad that Dean was right, that he really did know the extent of his brother's loyalty and there wasn't much to measure. Not to mention that Sam decides to restart his affair with Amelia in the very next episode after he had driven all the way there while leaving his brother to help himself and decided to leave her alone. Just, yuck.
This. It can easily be argued that Sam is the favored character and yet the writers unintentionally have him do things that causes him to be unsympathetic (at best) to a number of the fans. It all goes back to writers and showrunners who don't have a clue how people not sitting in the writers room will react to what they put on the screen.
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6 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:
And did Dean not get frantic when he thought Lisa and Ben were in danger from Crowley? In my opinion it's pretty hypocritical to judge Sam here if you don't judge Dean then.
Yes and did he abandoned Sam and leave him in imminent danger without a word? Not as far as I recall.
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3 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:
Let us not forget that jackass season eight Dean came up with the idea of making Sam think that someone he cared for was in serious danger! If jackass Dean hadn't done that then Sam would never have needed to go in the first place ;)
Actually, it's kind of sad that Dean knew his brother well enough to know that Sam would abandon him without a word or thought for his (Dean's)safety and run to Amelia . If Sam really thought someone Dean considered a friend was dangerous to Dean and others but takes off anyway, it doesn't make Sam look good. And that isn't even taking into account he abandoned a mentally unstable Hunter literally in the middle of a hunt.
4 minutes ago, Airmid said:It's hard to sell the brother bond when it looks like one brother is willing to trade in the other for a Hostess Cupcake.
That pretty much sums it up nicely.
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3 minutes ago, Airmid said:
I doubt it was an intentional thing either. I kind of always got the feeling that they thought it was going to be a badass setup for Sam to both go dark and live on the edge and then come back at the last minute. The problem is how you put it, the in your face writing style weighed down heavier with two ton anvils. There is little room for subtle and what we get throughout the season is Sam basically choosing everything over his brother till he makes a booboo. And that's an extreme disservice to the character.
On the flip side, it was usually well acted with several episodes going into excellent. When the Levee Breaks is one, but that doesn't change the fact that it tore the heart out of Sam's character more though with him being a full blown addict unable to hear what his loved ones were saying it does make sense. To me, the final nail of the whole misguided thing was actually in Lucifer Rising. Dean's main focus is on getting and helping Sam. Sam actually begins to take a step back, fresh from fighting with his brother and is feeling hesitation, that perhaps this is not the way to do it.
Then he gets a voicemail and goes, 'oh well' and that was it. To me, how they did that whole tangled thing was that he was never really that on the fence. That he just wanted Dean back in his pocket and approving of his choices which is fine when it's not: a lead character who is half of a brother team that normally saves people but instead is about to start the end of the world and be the meat puppet for Satan.
Kind of sucks when it is that though.
So, that's why I always wished they had gotten Sam to that finish line a different way then that. I didn't actually start liking Sam beyond just tolerating him on the screen until Point of No Return.
Which is such a shame really because the whole thing needed to breathe. I'm not saying that they needed half a season of that but dedicating the whole first episode to how they coped with Dean popping out in the end would have been nice. Or have framed the whole thing with Dean coming back to earth and getting to Sam with the rest being filled with what they both had been doing.
I know it would have derailed the season and they may have had to drop the episode about the witch sleeping with his dog slave - erm - familiar (fan favorite, I know, it would have been a travesty) but we could have had sympathy for Sam. Dean and the audience maybe could have been allowed to really get the idea of why Sam acted the way he did outside of just being a hot mess, which I'm sure Dean knows.
True, and the whole Samelia thingy did split up the brothers. Sam driving at phantom speeds to reach her in the middle of a hunt while Dean was chained to a radiator while a rabid hunter went after his only friend. Forced brother angst for the win! Isn't having one of your leads involved in a love triangle so much more engrossing than the hurt and horror of knowing your loved one is trapped and the only way you know how to get him out is to let all of Purgatory out with him?
Then, somehow they made Sam look like even more of a jackass with the whole coyote reaper episode. Sorry Sam, guess it really was that easy to get Dean back.
Ditto
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2 minutes ago, Reganne said:
Wasn't purgatory just as long as Sam/Amelia? TBH, I didn't care for either plot, so Im glad they weren't the focus of a whole episode each and were only flashbacks. But I can see why they would want to focus on both Sam and Dean and not just Dean so adding the Sam/AMara makes sense.
Actually, the thing Carver was excited about was the Sam/Amelia storyline. That's all he could talk about most of the time. I think it's Dean's sl that they came up with while trying to figure out a way to get rid of Dean for a year so the Sam/Amelia relationship could develop. However, purgatory was a hit and Sam/Amelia was a flop. They should have easily seen that result coming IMO.
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4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:
You know the more I think about this I don't think Jensen was throwing shade at Berens but I think he gave Berens the benefit of doubt at least publicly that this was planned all along.
IMO, there is no way that what Jensen said can be interpreted as HIM throwing shade. I just think some of us analyzed what was inadvertently revealed and found it stunning how clueless the writers often are.
4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:I understand that episodic television actors may not know specifics of how it will all play out but J2 have said before they are told generally what will happen for an overall story arc for their character with the understanding that things might change if actors aren't available, maybe SL aren't well received, etc so things might change. Carver and Singer both admitted they didn't have demon!Dean planned from the jump of the Mark of Cain arc for Dean.
Jensen doesn't play only what is written on the page when it comes to storytelling. He's mentioned several times that Kim Manners always told him to play what isn't on the page, too. That is why Jensen peppers Dean's history into his performances and why he inserts character beats that are not scripted, like when Dean hesitated and steeled himself before descending into Hell again for the first time, after having been in Hell for 40 years. If it was really planned from the moment Mary was resurrected why not tell Jensen this? By not telling him, they were essentially directing Jensen by not giving him information. Did they not trust him to play that arc properly and hold the reveal to the end? Jensen is a director himself and loves to tell a good story.
So given Jensen's alacrity with knowing what to play or NOT play as the case may be, I find it kind of stunning and illogical for Dabb to make a choice to hold that critical information from Jensen, until "Who We Are" was written. I suspect the spin would be 'Well, I wanted it to be as authentic a reaction as possible from Jensen when Dean has the revelation that he hated his mother and needed to forgive her'. But, apparently Dabb didn't trust the actor who has played that role for 12 years to comprehend the nuance of Dean's psyche and not reveal this moment accidentally along the way, so he didn't tell him. OR it wasn't planned at all from the jump. I'm going with the latter.
Me too.
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38 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:
I'm fairly certain the main reason they cut the purgatory storyline short was a lack of desire, on the showrunners part to separate Sam and Dean, which was why they skipped Deans time there and told it through a series of quick flashbacks.
I thought when fans griped about the Dean in purgatory sl disappearing so fast that Singer said they had to cut it short because the VFX was too expensive. I know splitting up the brothers is supposed to be a problem but there was no effort to write a solution that would have extended purgatory. Instead, we got Sam/Amelia.
33 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:Depends, if it was a Sam-storyline it would go on for half a Season. Mary and Lucifer are apparently pet characters to these writers so I can see them making some effort. But I`m not sure they warrant the expense of having multiple scenes in doom-world. Singer is the budget guy, he would probably say no to it.
I pretty much agree.
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On a different topic, the Dean storyline of Purgatory was cut way short. The major reason they GAVE was the extra cost for the special effects although I have my doubts that was it. There is arguably less money for special effects now with higher J2 salaries and other regulars in the cast. Season 13 has an alt universe that is very heavy on special effects and is not a Dean storyline. Do you think it will get cut short too?
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6 minutes ago, The Morning Star said:
being
7 minutes ago, The Morning Star said:I'm an older brother myself and since the day one, I felt a connection to Dean Winchester specially since when Sam died the first time.
I get that brotherly love, I understand how desperate Dean must have felt when he sold his soul to get Sam back and how hurt he was when Sam said what he said back in S9.
I can understand his suck it up the pain attitude, I know how it feels for him to be a semi-father figure to someone when being a child themselves.
I also absolutely dig the bond between Dean and Cas because I can get that too, two dudes who love each other in a friendship/brotherly way.
With Sam, I just can't connect with him, I can surely say that one of the only Sam lines that really had an emotional effect on me was the "You being here fills the biggest void in my life" line he said to Mary.
And it's a combination of both the actor and the script unfortunately.
Yes! And I also agree the Twitter tantrums now don't help.
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5 hours ago, The Morning Star said:
After 12 seasons, I can clearly see that Sam Winchester (although I love both the character and the actor) unfortunately has a childish, SJW, know it all smartass attitude to him, continued ignorance of Dean's concerns despite that fact that time of time after time he was proven to be right and the superiority complex that he has that makes him behave like he's the better man which again unfortunately stems from the fact that the actor is a short tempered teenage drama queen based on his social media behavior.
I am an older woman who also isn't that concerned with either actors looks. I have raised three boys myself who are now fine adults (daughter too) and I have to admit that from season 1 episode 1, Sam came across to me as a spoiled know it all who thought he was better than his brother. Part of that was the writing and part of it was how JP delivered the lines. I can't help my initial reaction. That first impression softens and then the writers do another Sam thinks he knows better than Dean but he's actually wrong. It doesn't help that Jensen is such an amazing actor and IMO, has been better at selling his character as sympathetic since day one.
I just wish the writers would grow Sam up and LET HIM STAY THERE.
5 hours ago, The Morning Star said:5 hours ago, The Morning Star said:-
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6 hours ago, catrox14 said:
Do Crowley's words here seem a little meta to you guys, given Mark has confirmed he's leaving the show?
I never noticed that. Makes you think. Thanks for posting.
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8 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:
I so wish I could agree...
But the addiction was a flaw. Sam's arrogance was a flaw. For me the other was nothing more than character assassination.
And that's coming from someone who did think that Sam overcame many of those flaws - the arrogance for one (through his actions throughout season 5 - for me: your miles may vary) and the addiction as well.
And I might not be so annoyed by it if didn't end up later being a pattern. Thankfully Gamble found a way to have Sam go dark without assassinating his character, but then Carver did it again at least twice by throwing Sam's character under the bus with similar callous behaviors that didn't make much sense but increased "angst" and/or forwarded the plot, and that Sam was again given little narrative rationale for. Again my opinion on that one.
Dabb at least didn't make Sam do something awful while he was making him be "wrong" and at least let Sam win one, so that's a step in a better direction in my opinion.
I understand what your saying. The writing often makes it very hard to empathize with Sam and that's never a good thing IMO. As far as all the subtleties to the plots everyone is coming up with, IMO you are giving the writers to much credit. They appear to me to only know how to do the in your face style of writing. I still don't think they are intentionally trying to do such damage to Sam's character. There is no way they are doing that intentionally to Jared so that leaves me with unintentional.
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15 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:
I'm actually quite sad about all of this. Maybe I'm remembering history through rose tinted glasses, but have we ever had a split like this before? AFAIK, they've always seemed amicable and the actors have only had nice things to say about the show :s.
Mark has never been part of the trio (J2M) and has always seemed a bit of an outsider to me but I never saw any bad blood between them. Just not quite the same depth of friendship.
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18 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:
But that's just it, I don't think the writing was supposed to be bad in season 4. Many fans - and even maybe critics - think it was one the better written seasons. And really, I think it's more than improbable that the writers could take a situation like Dean's where he's tortured horrifically for 30 years and understandably breaks and feels terrible about it, focus on his pain in a sympathetic way, have Sam ask about it and at first be extremely sympathetic... only to later have Sam make fun of Dean for it. And if there was any doubt (in my mind, anyway) that that was supposed to be seen as horrible? The writers then write Alastair - a character I'm pretty certain we are not supposed to see as in any way good or as someone we are supposed to identify or sympathize with - do almost the same thing two episodes later while also having Sam infer that Dean can't get the information out of Alastair, because he's too damaged / weak. I mean wow, really? How is that not supposed to be seen as painting Sam completely unsympathetically and horribly on purpose? I just don't see writers being that careless with their characters - especially one of two main characters of their show.
Even if Sam was the "favored" character - which I'm not so sure about - what would be the rational for basically having that character do the narrative equivalent of kicking a disabled person?* Because even if I agreed that the writers did think that Dean was actually weak and pathetic - which I don't, but let's say I did - how is having someone kick that weak, pathetic person when they are down (or any person when they are down) in any way supposed to look anything but awful? I'm sorry, I just don't see a way it could happen. For me, it defies any form of earth logic.
Sorry about the rant - this is a sore spot for me.
* That only works if it's another disabled person who is doing the beating up and you happen to be South Park. And even then it's just so, so wrong, and might still be considered in very bad taste.I see your point. I just think they were giving Sam flaws he needed to overcome to be the hero in the end. But their execution was awful and Sam was never really shown overcoming his flaws. I think the writers thought the hero moments would out weigh the other stuff and it didn't work out quite like they expected. I hope that makes sense and of course it is just my opinion. I just don't think the writers read fans correctly. Hand waving faults away does not a hero make.
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2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:
Not necessarily. 12.21 would have been filmed late March or early April. He could have gone to MIchaels and said, I'm not coming back for s13 because this thing happened.. Write me out of the show. Interesting it was a Buck Lemming script. Maybe he's had it
You know if anything to that rumor is true, that is a Buck Lemming script and I've read on Tumblr and Twitter that Buck Lemming do not like their scripts being altered in any way. Maybe Mark stood up to BLemming and got sacked? I dunno.
I'm just throwing out wild spec with no facts.
Pretty much anything right now is speculation except he's leaving.
“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever
in Supernatural
The other problem I have is everyone talks about Sam being a follower. Well this season he definitely wasn't. He came up with the plans and he killed the monsters. If you really watch, Sam hasn't been just a follower for a long time. Dean regularly wants to do things one way but acquiesces when Sam wants to do another. It happens regularly. Two that pop into my head quickly are the hospital when Dean wanted to fight his way out and the health spa where Dean wanted to kill the owner lady. Most of the time he doesn't even argue. It's just an ok what do you want to do.
I agree with this.
This is how I think and feel too.