Partly

Again, late to the party! I’ve only skimmed through the comments so I’m not going to comment on any specific posts, but I have some thoughts I would like to share, so I will be just focusing on general topics. Sorry if I say things that have already been said – or if I reference a theory without credit, let me know! I didn’t find the scene with Sam and Lady Bauer as disturbing as others have, mostly because I saw it as more evidence that Lady Bauer’s torture techniques fail miserably. None of Sam’s comments to her made any sense in the grand scheme of American hunters. Sam told her American hunters were bad? I don’t think so. That sounds like something that Lady Bauer already assumed and was just looking for confirmation. And Sam never corrected her when she insisted that they were “recruited” by others and he willingly labeled British hunters as “tools”? None of that is the Sam I know. It was just giving her what she wanted to hear – like all torture techniques (probably more so as I’m sure that design bias would be prevalent in spell-based torture). I also saw his “We're not just gonna talk all night, right?” deflections were just that, deflections. She obviously wasn’t willing to take that step, so it was a way for Sam to fight the hallucination. I’m sure it wasn’t a conscious decision, but the same way you will do odd things to break out of a dream, I can see Sam’s unconsciously pushing back at the spell. I also think that Lady Bauer knew exactly what she was going to get with her “potion and powerful spell work”. Her “You'll have to admit, it was fun while it lasted” and “Was it good for you?” comments were too pointed and poised for them to have been off-the-cuff comments. She also got way to much enjoyment out of the idea of “enhanced interrogation”. The girl likes torture way too much for any possible redemption – although Crowley likes torture and killing and he’s still around, so I will have to wait and see. Lady Bauer, and the BMoL in general, fall into the same category as all those who oppose the Winchesters: they are a lying bunch of arrogant SOBs so sure they are right that they end up just looking for things that support their own world view.. They have a lot of “knowledge” at their fingertips but they lack any true understanding. And speaking of the BMoL and things they (probably) don’t know: Do they know that Cas is an angel? When Mick comes in he says “Not to mention I powered down all the wardings in this shack so your attack dog could come in.” You would think that the BMoL would have a bit more respect for (or at least fear of) an actual Angel of God, at the very least you would think that they would acknowledge he is an angel. Although, if they view hunters as “tools”, I could see them “using” supernatural beings as “tools/weapons”, they may consider angels to be just another supernatural creature to exploit. Which makes me seriously consider that “Mr. Ketch” may be more than just a human psychopath. I’ll be very surprised if he’s not supernatural in some way. From a purely personal standpoint, I would find it very satisfying if it turns out that the entire BMoL is run by some supernatural element. It would be eminently entertaining to have Lady Bauer to be working for the very thing she despises. Gotta love Dean. His “Turns out this ape did read a book or two” is so very much who he is. He’s a hell of a lot smarter than most give him credit for and he’s okay with that. I also like his hesitation to accept Mary’s return without reservations. Which is why I found his “I'm not sure that I'm not” response to Sam’s “I thought you were dead” to be very interesting. I’m unsure if he was talking about the effects from the spell that incapacitated him or everything since his encounter with Amara. Which is fine, because I’m willing to see the line as referencing both. Quick comments: I find it interesting that both Dean and Sam say they are hunting because it’s what their family does. Especially since their “family” has just be each other for a long time now. I love that Rowena was giving up conjuring her way to a good life and was more than willing to do it the old-fashioned, non-magical way. Although, I was amused that her ego still made it necessary for her to be a “star”. I really like this new Rowena and really hope she manages to get free of both Lucifer and Crowley. Which is new for me because I really couldn’t have cared less about Rowena when she first showed up. I like that grief/regret is still the main motivation that drives people in this show to do things. Although I find it interesting that Lucifer is starting to skirt the whole consent issue by getting people to agree without knowing exactly who they are agreeing to. He is an angel so that is technically correct and I guess he just doesn’t want to spend the time to convince people to say yes to the DEVIL HIMSELF. I find it interesting that Mary doesn’t (didn’t) cook. We saw that Deanna did (with those awesome knife skills) but that wasn’t something that Mary continued. We know so little about her and I look forward to learning more. I’m most interested in know what she did – I mean, right now she’s in that vague area of “housewife/mother” but I can tell you from personal experience that doesn’t actually tell you anything. Did she go to school anywhere? Did she have a trade? What did she do to fill her time and make buying meatloaf from Piggly Wiggly (it amuses me that I can actually do that) a necessity? I’m not sure they will tell us this, but I really want to know. She had to do something because I don’t see her as a 6 hour-a-day soap opera fan – although MTV kicked off in ’81 so maybe she spent all her time watching videos? Finally, I did like that they managed to make everyone strong, give them a spotlight (if you will) without making anyone looks stupid. It doesn’t bother me that Dean was captured or that Mary managed to get the drop on Lady Bauer. I know my mileage is very different than others here, but I was pleased with how everyone was portrayed. Wow. Again rather long. Thanks for reading!

So, is the belief that Jensen plays Dean cruder than the writer's write Dean? Would that mean that the writers are the arbiters of what Dean is like?

I don't understand the reasoning behind this. Could someone explain?

I'm thinking that it's already too much for her. She finds out that she's been dead for 33 years and that tons of crap has happened to her family in that time, and even before she can adjust to that she finds out Sam has been taken. Then she's forced to kill someone -- not a supernatural creature, but an actual PERSON. She's holding it together remarkably well, but that's gonna change once she has a moment of down time. My thought is that she will want to stay hunting with them because -- whether she wants that life or not -- its the only familiar thing she has in this crazy future world. But even hunting is going to be so very different than she new before. She's going to have to step away just to find a way to ground herself with everything that's happened. I'm not sure she can do that while being around Dean and Sam, especially since she would be constantly learning bits and pieces of what's happened to them. It would end up pulling the characters backwards instead of them moving forward.

I completely agree that Dean isn't a slob, however, I have no problem with him occasionally acting like one. In fact, with how he was raised and the type of life he leads, I'd find it out of character if never acted in ways that "polite company" would find offensive.

I grew up and live in a rural area surrounded by farmers and construction workers and other people (women as well as men) work with their hands for a living and I got to tell you that Dean and Sam would be more then welcome at my table and in that company any time. They were so very pleased and complementary over a meal that obviously took time and effort to prepare. They ate everything they took, didn't complain that something was wrong and didn't completely freak out or become gross when they started talking about sex. Not only that, but they helped cleanup and do the dishes afterward. Now, since I grew up in a farm household where dinner conversation wasn't "polite" most times and I still work with men who don't wear suits for a living, I'm not what you would call a sensitive soul. Hell, I'm a woman who can run with the wolves (and have, actually). I understand that YMMV, but I'll happily serve an entire crew of men who behave the way Dean and Sam did at Jody's house.

Plus it was a drug-induced hallucination. Drugs mess everything up. You could come up with any explanation or hidden meaning in the montage only to say that "it was a bad trip" and means exactly the opposite of what was shown. More than that, I don't think what Sam saw was important at all. The most important thing is how he reacted to the torture. After all, the drug was just another form of torture, and he reacted to it with the same strength and composure that he did the other forms of torture Lady Bauer throws at him. Throughout the entire process, Sam had a real sense of agency -- he was in control of his choices and exerted his will. He may have been tired up and tortured, but he was always in control of his own actions and he made his own choices. Not only when faced with attack from the outside (hypothermia/fire) but also from the inside (hallucinations).

Since Knuckles already demonstrated they don't know about Mary and aren't looking for her, I'm thinking that it's not so much that Dean is incompetent and Mary has to save him, as it is that Mary is part of the plan if everything goes sideways. Dean's favorite ploy is to use the misconception that he is egotistical and brash against the bad guys. He rushes in to a situation where he is outmatched and when his attack fails the bad guys are so busy gloating that they stopped Dean so easily (and ranting about how stupid he is) that that they never see the real attack coming. Dean's lack of ego is one of my favorite things about him. He doesn't care who kills the bad guy, he doesn't care if he spends the entire fight losing, he doesn't care if he looks stupid or weak, all he cares about is that the bad guy is ganked in end.

Bolded and italicized because that's how much I love this thought! The easiest lies to believe are those that you fear are true. Both boys fall so easily for lies that match their own self-doubts. Dean always believes the "no one loves you, they will always leave you, you are nothing" lies and Sam always believes the "you are tainted, you are a monster, you cause everyone pain" lies. It would be really nice for the boys to be able to recognize that and move beyond it. At the very least, it will make the bad guys job harder.

I didn't see that at all. In fact, what I really liked about Sam in this episode was how strong he was. He may have been thinking that killing himself could be a way out and it would leave Lady Bauer with nothing but I didn't get that impression. My feeling is that he took the he worst that Lady Bauer could do physically and mentally and ended up saying "screw you" everytime. I know he failed in his escape but if he was really considering killing himself she left him down there with plenty of ways he could do that. I just don't think that is an option he's considering. It would be nice to see Sam -- both the boys, actually -- move beyond the guilt-games that have been continuously used against them. I'm more than willing to keep a positive spin to the episodes until they prove me completely wrong. I think it's a case that Dean couldn't bring himself to doubt it. He wants it to be true so he accepts it. More than that I don't think he could handle it if Mary wasn't Mary. It's not smart but it's understandable.

Except while Cole was definitely after Dean, I don't think that Lady Bauer kidnapped Sam to get to Dean. I think she wanted Sam all along. And she didn't mock him over the phone, she said very little and she didn't need to mock him, he was coming for Sam anyway. She just sent Knuckles to intercept (and, I think, get rid of him).

Anytime after season 2, possibly most times after season 1, it was either used as a mantra to keep them going (because they were unworthy to do anything else) or as an acknowledgment that they just did something both spectacularly impossible and incredible, thereby negating all the bad that is normally their life. In my opinion he said that not so much an acknowledgement of his intrinsic value as much a way to make up for all his other failings. When he said it, it was as statement that *this time* they did a good thing. It didn't last, though, it wasn't permanent, it was a temporary balm before becoming unworthy again. When Mary was talking about the hunting life it encompassed the boy's complete lives. Not just the single moments. When Dean says we make the world a better place, I see him talking about their lives as a whole. Mary said she never wanted *this life* for them, Dean's reply was that their lives were good. Not just as hunters, but as her children. Their *lives* were good. I realize that's a subtle difference and I fully understand if I am seeing more than others do. To me it felt more encompassing and Dean seemed more at peace with the statement than he usually does when saying that.

I have to add that the show is doing a great job of writing stories that make sense and are interesting to those of us who have never explored the Star Wars universe beyond the movies. I'm never left thinking that I'm missing something.

My real life needs to change because I need to watch this show before Monday morning! The fact that I started it three times and had to stop before the first commercial break each just made it all that much more frustrating! I really liked the intro of Mary -- we know nothing about her really, so it will be interesting to see who she is. I think we have a good start. I love the stories that Dean told her to prove he was who he said. Not only that, but it gave us some interesting looks into Mary. She loved Slaughterhouse 5 (and do you think that's why Dean first started reading Vonnegut?). It was her idea to get married in Reno (and I got the feeling that John would have preferred a different venue). She was very independent and impulsive -- she not only went to a movie alone in the early seventies, but she went out to coffee with a complete stranger. Additionally, Dean says she knocked down a "big marine", which makes me think that John must have been in uniform at the time. A marine in uniform in 1972 was not something to be taken lightly. Most servicemen were told to change into civilian clothes the moment they were off base because they were treated so badly. I know servicemen from that era that were spit on while in uniform. At the time -- and really up to the 80s -- Vietnam vets were considered to be unstable and violent, so most returning vets never wore the uniform and rarely told people of their service. I liked how she said that John trading himself for Dean was something he would do. I love little moments when you learn something about both the character who is speaking and another character. Plus her complete acceptance of what John did and her firm belief that it was completely in character for him to do so tells Dean a great deal about both his parents. That scene was good in many ways. Also: I'm happy that Mary wasn't kick-ass at all. Sure she could clear a room -- but she did end up distracted and looking at books. And she did get the drop on Cas, but really, how hard it that when he wasn't sneaking at all. In the fight, she did kill Knuckles, however, all she did was pick up a dropped weapon and stab her in the back. The only reason she managed that is Knuckles didn't know she was there. Not sure that qualifies as "kick-ass". As for the fight between Knuckles and Dean/Cas, it didn't bother me. Mostly because I assumed that the enchanted brass knuckles gave power to the person wearing them rather than affecting the person they hit. All it took was one hit to give them the winning edge. Neither of the Winchesters manage to fight without taking some damage -- and in Dean's case, I'd say that taking some hits in order to deal out damage is part of his strategy. The fact that Knuckles seemed willing to kill Dean is interesting. I'm not sure that's what she had planned, but it's the feeling I got. Not sure if she had a plan for Cas, although I think that they probably do, since that seems to be how the BMoL rolls, plans within plans within plans. It's obvious that the BMoL are willing to kill without qualms anyone they consider a threat, so I'm thinking that Dean and Sam may, once again, be on a "kill when possible" list. Granted, Lady Bauer (named so for her use of torture) seemed upset when Sam pretended to kill himself, but I'm not sure how to read that, yet. She had no problem with torture, and her only complaint about "Mr. Ketch" was that she didn't want him near HER - not that she didn't want to have him around Sam. She had no problem shooting him and, despite saying that he could walk out if he just told he want she wanted, she also said "you're... you. It was always going to end up this way." So I doubt that she was ever going to let him walk out. I'm on the fence about Lady Bauer. Nothing pushes my buttons faster than arrogance, elitism and contempt and this gal works those in spades. Of course, that seems to be the whole attitude behind the BMoL. My only reservation at this point is how much emphasis they are putting on her child. While it may just be an attempt to humanize her, I'm hoping there's more to it. My current hope is that there is something supernatural about her child and that, in some way, she's hoping to be able to help her child through going after the Winchesters. Being a subversive element in the BMoL, even for personal reasons, would make her more sympathetic. YMMV, of course. As for the BMoL -- I've dropped them directly into the "unreliable narrator" file. By which I mean that you can't believe a damn thing they say. Looking back at the info they collected on the Winchesters (in the season finale last year), they weren't very accurate. Plus, the whole "we haven't had a supernatural death since 1965". So they have no ghosts? How do they ward an entire county against demons or angels? WAIT! Don't we know for a fact that this is wrong? Didn't a Banshee kill Eileen's (Into the Mystic) parents 30 years ago in Ireland? It's all so much bull -- but it's a good way to keep everyone in line and following their orders. I'm sure that the "old men" who have control over the BMoL have a whole mess of secrets that they are keeping. And really? Killing all every supernatural creature they meet? We spent the first seasons following the boys slow journey toward realizing not every supernatural being is evil, ain't no way that's going to fly here. I also find it interesting that they feel that Dean and Sam are somehow in charge of hunting here in the US. It's as if they see the Winchesters are the American equivalent for the "old men" in the BMoL. As if Dean and Sam would do that! Finally, as much as I loved Dean and Mary (and Cas) in this episode, it was Sam who really won me over. Sure chained up to a chair has been done, but really how else would you restrain him? And it's not like doing that made him any less badass. What I really liked about Sam was how strong and proactive he was despite being chained to a chair and tortured. He wasn't going to give up any one. As he said: "Or maybe you tie them to a chair. Maybe you do worse. So, maybe... maybe you can go to Hell". That's the Winchester spirit. And even after they drugged him, he still stayed strong. He came up with a plan to get out and almost made it. Sure you could say that he should have killed Lady Bauer but that's not Sam and I'm glad it's not. Even after everything, even believing Dean is dead, he stays true to who he is. THIS is the Sam I love: Strong, competent and smart. And because I do love Dean and feel that I haven't said enough about him: I loved how he told Mary that "saving people, hunting things" was what they did and that he feels they make the world a better place. I've waited a long time for him to come to that conclusion, to own who he is. Dean is all too aware of his faults, it's wonderful to see him acknowledge that he can do good. Obviously waiting to watch makes me verbose. Sorry for the long post! Thanks for reading.

I like Alvez and feel that he is a good addition. Then again, I like the actor so that helps. I also have faith that the show can write good characters and has done a fabulous job of introducing new characters. Emily and Rossi have become favorites and they were introduced into an established cast. Re: Roxy. I was taking the "man with dog" scenes as just a basic sympathetic "man loves animals" characterization, however after his request for Emily not to mention that he was in the 75th in Iraq, I'm wondering if they could be going for a service/therapy dog angle. While I don't think every character needs a hook or past drama to make them interesting, I do feel that it would be a very realistic backstory to give him. And one that is too often just used as a weakness/trigger/illness, rather than a issue that people face and live with on a daily basis. ETA: Goes to show that I should read the episode thread first! I see the service/military dog theory was mentioned there! Great minds and all, I suppose.

I liked the series as a whole. While I would have enjoyed a show based on Michael, Sam and Fi helping people (kinda an updated A-Team vibe), I feel that the path Michael took is the one he needed to in order to make the end choices he did. My favorite part of the show is the fact that ALL of the characters are made better by the the fact that Michael gets burned and dropped in Miami -- especially Michael. The fact that it takes as much as it does to get him to realize that he can't be a spy without losing all of the good things he gained from his friends and by not being a spy in Miami, well, that fits the who the character is.

It could just be that binding a Reaper affects the appearance of the reaper. Binding it to a human's will and wishes creates a stress and strain that changes how a reaper looks. I also though that by having Death look the way he did made a good explanation why reapers look (super)naturally the way they do -- they want to look like Death.

More than that a foundry is the most basic of factories -- it the is place where metal is created and castings are made. It is, in many ways, a place of the creation of the building blocks of all things metal. It also is a place where things are melted down and recreated, made into something new. "Foundry" is a very good name; it has a lot of metaphorical punch.

In nurture vs. nature the answer is always BOTH. I think that Sam is naturally contrary. He doesn't like being told what to do and he certainly doesn't like to be told what to do without being told WHY he should do it. And even then he would have had to agree with the reason and the actions. The show clearly showed that. He would have butted head with John no matter how normal their lives were. Two examples I can think of of the top of my head is in Bugs when Sam identified with the son who put so much energy into being different than his family and in Swap Meat when Sam clearly stated he would have hated living up to the expectations and demands that being "normal" had. Dean is a natural caretaker. That's also shown on the show -- in the flashbacks were he saw his mom was sad and comforted her, in all of his interactions with children who are in danger. The situation he was in and John's expectations of him just added to that natural desire. I also don't think that John was quite as draconian as he's often portrayed. In "The Things We Left Behind", Dean tells the story of how he snuck out to the club and gets drunk and drugged and John saved him. And Dean -- ever obedient and never disrespectful Dean -- whines about John embarrassing him and how much Dean hates him. The end of that story didn't have John slapping Dean around or leaving him at the mercies of what-ever-the-hell the people in the club were going to do to him. There's the story of Dean running away and what happened when John found him. I think that Dean often placed greater guilt on himself than John did and I don't think John even saw that. In Something Wicked, when Dean says that John "looked at me different" after the Striga attack, he assumes that it's because John felt Dean failed him. Possible. It's also possible that John looked at him differently because he almost lost both his children that night. He could have decided that what Dean really needs to to learn more about hunting to give him the skills needed to defend himself better against all the evil out there. Dean would have seen this as proof that his dad thought he was weak and he would have jumped at the chance to make himself better and to prove that he was worthy of trust. Take, for example, this exchange in Shadow: I believe that, to Dean, John's words are a condemnation of Dean's inability to see what must have been an obvious trap. Since John starts out with the words "It's all right," that's obviously not what he's saying, but I'm sure that's what Dean hears. John's great failing with Dean was never understanding that Dean took everything so very personally and internalized it into something he was responsible for. John's great failing with Sam was that he never understood that if he would have just laid it all out on the table and constructed it so that it would be Sam's choice to do the "safe and right" thing Sam never would have fought him. But that type of self awareness and parental flexibility is rare, even in people who are well grounded and living normal lives.

I completely agree with this. I willingly admit that a large part of the reason I view John the way I do is because it so directly informs who Sam and Dean are. If John was a right bastard with varying degrees of psycophathy and/or addiction, if he was physically and emotionally abusive and unloving towards his boys, so much of what we saw of their current day interactions would have been a lie and I'm not sure I can reconcile my views of the boys with that level of self-deception. For example, in Shadow the boys and John share several very emotional hugs. The exchange between Dean and John, then John and Sam, I want them to be real. Because if the relationship is built on actual love and caring then all the other conflicts are made that much more complex and complicated. When Henriksen (or a demon or an angel or any number of manipulative bastards) accuse John of not loving his children or abusing them on some level and Dean denies that, if it's TRUE than that denial reaches a level of self-delusion that I can't reconcile with the character I see. If there's a true feeling of caring, people trying to find their way through a very flawed past, struggling to reconcile failures and betrayals with the love they all feel, I want to watch that story. If it all a lie, a cover story that abuse has forced them to pretend is real -- well that isn't a story I'm interested in watching. That said I do enjoy reading other people's views on the characters.

Yes! Thank you, THIS I remember.

I don't recall when Sam did this... I know that he was pissed at John about the current situation and saying that John didn't care, but I don't remember him confronting him about not coming when Dean was dying before. Mostly this is a YMMV issue. Since I see no upside to thinking that John is a complete and total bastard and since they didn't actually show he was on the show, I'll go with the "he didn't get it".

YES. Dean loved the hunting life. I know that most times it's assumed that had Dean lived a "normal" life he would have been a mechanic, once again following in the "family business". I supposed that was because that's what Dean was doing when the Djinn grabbed him, but I just don't see that. His need to help people and his serious love of danger would not let him be happy as a mechanic, IMO. The only possible explanation would be that John never got the messages. In fact, it's the only way it makes sense to me. John is an ass in many ways but having him KNOWINGLY not contact the boys when Dean was dying is unconscionable.

Yes. Absolutely, yes. Although my favorite line of John's that he says to Sam is: While he's right that he never considered what Sam (or Dean) wanted, he's absolutely wrong about the last past. They're not different, they are remarkably the same. It's a blindspot a great deal of parents have -- the inability to deal with their child's personality traits that mirror their own (often negative) personality traits. Everyone said that you couldn't tell John Winchester anything and that is certainly mirrored in Sam's hatred of being told what to do. Both of them, when they are sure they were right, dug their heels in and entrenched themselves in their opinion. Yes. John was the adult and the parent -- but the sad truth about being a parent is that you are still the same flawed human you were to start out with. All the love, the best intentions and even the knowledge that what you are doing isn't right doesn't change the fact that you still make stupid decisions and act poorly. The best you can hope for is that when your children grow up they can understand that.

I don't think that we can apply a "normal" definition of safe here. In many ways, the Winchesters (and all hunters) live in a war-zone. There are evil creatures, supernatural predators and untold unnatural forces at work trying to kill and destroy people. There's a reason why non-hunters are called "civilians", after all. Granted it may be more possible to avoid the "supernatural war" here in the US than it would be to avoid the "real war" in, say, Syria, so running and hiding and keeping the truth from them may have been an option. On the other hand, another way to keep them safe is to give them the knowledge and skills needed to fight the war. Arm them with the facts of the world, no matter how harsh, and give them the means to survive out there. Of course, even John didn't tell them the whole truth. He knew that things were after Sam but he didn't tell them that. And it was only when he was dying that he finally told Dean -- which, of course, was a totally bastardly thing to do. But then, even Dumbledore didn't know how to break the news to someone he loved that they would have to die. And John is about as far from Dumbledore as you can get.