Lobsel Vith

Some of the comments involve people saying they "hate" Elena now, and there are other comments where people are placing all the blame on things on Elena for how poorly things turn out for the world. Sure, but Fitz and Simmons gave Ruby that power, yet those people are absolving Fitz and Simmons of any responsibility for giving Ruby that power and are putting all the blame on Elena's shoulders. I find the double-standard to be a bit much. I think Elena viewing Ruby as the Destroyer of Worlds, along with losing her arms to Ruby, explains why she took that particular action.

Fitz and Simmons both openly admit the risks in the actual episode, so it's not like neither of them were not cognizant that they could be bringing about the end of the world. I'd say the issue goes back to how Fitz handled the situation with Daisy, where he acted like he couldn't speak to her about the situation with the rift and handled things in a way that was incredibly poor, while here he's willing to risk the world if it means that Ruby doesn't kill Simmons.

Yeah, I don't get why some people on twitter and elsewhere are expressing hatred for Yo-yo, or blaming her for everything. You'd think Ruby was some innocent civilian rather than the Hydra member who brutally cut off Yo-yo's hands. Mack is one step away from leaving (which was pointed out on the show before this - he's only staying because of Yo-yo, and I don't know how things are going to turn out now that she betrayed him), and I don't blame him (after everything he's been through, I'd feel the same way if I were in his shoes). May has never wanted it, and Daisy seems to be more of a mirror for Coulson given that she's dedicated her life to S.H.I.E.L.D. while May would be willing to leave (she left to pursue a normal life with Andrew, for example, while Lincoln had to join S.H.I.E.L.D. in order to stay with Daisy). I'd almost say that May would want to spend what little time Coulson has left with him, but there seems to be an odd trend of this show wanting to pursue a romance between the two of them while simultaneously not actually devoting much time (if any, depending on the episode) to them. It has lead to some conflicts between the people who ship Fitz and Simmons and the people who ship Coulson and May. It's... a weird approach, to say the least. I don't pretend to understand the logic of it.

Her father killed her mother because her mother was draining her life force during her confrontation.

It was a storyline that robbed Trip of a more prominent role (after being ridiculously marginalized in season two) and used Ward's victims to prop Ward, including having Daisy deal with a man who threatened to rape her in the season one finale. Trying to elicit sympathy for a Nazi character in an anti-Nazi storyline is such a mistake. The saving grace of that entire pod was Mack, Hope, and Elena - their final scene was absolutely incredible. As for Deke, if you're talking about the characters, then what he did to Daisy is pretty much the most likely reason (he's cited it as the reason why Daisy still has issues with him, and that makes perfect sense). If you're talking about the viewers, then it's that he's another horrible white guy who did some terrible things, has fans who whitewash the terrible things that he's done, and the show denied us the opportunity to have another man of color without marginalizing his screentime (Trip, Andrew, Joey, and even Robbie if you compare his screentime to that of other white male characters, including Deke), or killing them off (Joey and Andrew). In this episode, his whole lemon scene took up time that could have been better spent elsewhere, on character interactions that have been lacking so far. It's becoming more than a little frustrating at this point. I don't feel the same way about the character - I'll leave it at that, unless you want to take this to the Deke thread and discuss it further.

I'm saying that Fitz's actions are putting him more on Deke's side at this point - the show has pretty much handwaved a lot regarding him (from the danger of him becoming entirely like his Framework counterpart to what he did to Daisy). Everyone else has made their share of mistakes, but none of them are comparable. Even Elena killing Ruby in this episode - she thought Ruby was the Destroyer of Worlds, and she remembered that Ruby was the one who cut off her arms. It's not even in the same ballpark.

And if we did, nothing done by any of the main characters (sans Fitz at this point) is even in the same league as what Deke did, so there's no reason why anyone (especially Daisy) is obligated to warm up to him. I don't get the rationale that, because the main cast are imperfect people, that they're somehow obligated to like Deke - they're not. It's like saying that they should have embraced Ward with open arms because they aren't perfect people. That doesn't mean that a single person - particularly Daisy - owes him anything. I would have preferred to see that screentime go to actual character interaction among the main cast. Deke is taking up screentime that could have gone to a number of different character interactions as an alternative, and it's becoming more than a little repetitive with Deke.

I mean, Deke sold her into slavery, and Deke brought that up about two episodes ago as a reason why Daisy still had issues with him, so it would be pretty ridiculous of the show to pair the two of them together (unless they learned nothing from Ward, and the whole Framework Ward fiasco suggests that could be a possibility). Plus, Daisy has made it repeatedly clear that she has no romantic feelings for Deke. Doing a "no means yes" romance storyline would be... pretty gross. Yeah, slavery should never be the start to any storyline trying to dangle a potential romance between two characters. It's just... sad that someone was actually paid to write this. It's complete garbage.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure it was an Icer. I don't get the feeling that it'll be a long-term grudge or anything like that - Elena lost her arms because of Ruby, and Daisy should understand what it's like to be brutalized because of what Fitz did to her. If this show was well-written, Fitz's torture of Daisy should be properly addressed (along with the risk of him going full Ward - which was the whole reason he was locked up in the first place), but I won't be holding my breath.

Absolutely. Unlike Trip and Andrew, who actually gave their lives, Deke gave up nothing. We've also heard him denigrate Daisy for being upset about being enslaved (his words) and he told Fitz he was impressed by being held hostage while Fitz brutally tortured a woman in front of him. He's still coming across as rather repugnant.

Which is nothing like building robots that could murder your teammates (let's not forget that Mack was injured protecting Yo-yo from one such robot) or torturing an alien device out of a woman who is begging you to stop. None of your examples are remotely similar to what Fitz did. Daisy thinking that Gonzales attempted to murder her mother - in the same year his team attempted to murder her - isn't the same thing, either. For obvious reasons. I'm hoping I don't need to spell out why. In contrast to what, exactly? To Fitz endangering Daisy's life by recklessly jumping into the portal of the monolith on the slim chance that he could find Simmons before Daisy died trying to keep the portal open? Or when Fitz opened the portal for Hydra and endangered the entire world because he didn't want to see Simmons suffer at the hands of Ward and the rest of Hydra, which lead to Hive coming to Earth? Or Fitz working with Radcliffe on an illegal project, which ultimately lead to Coulson now dying? All of your examples are absolutely terrible. Do I really need to address why trying to compare Elena saving the lives of Tess, Mack, and Coulson isn't the same as Fitz torturing a woman? This isn't reddit - I expect more when I come here to discuss the show with people. Yeah, and some of us call B.S. on the notion that a man willfully torturing a woman should be handwaved, especially in the same season where some fans are handwaving slavery or romanticizing the selling of a person into slavery for money. Enough is enough at this point.

That's not even remotely the same thing. Mack thought Coulson shouldn't be the leader of the organization, he had some legitimate issues about the decisions being made, but he also put himself in harm's way to protect Fitz. Fitz, in contrast, built robots that endangered everyone and tortured a woman. Those aren't the same thing. I admit the whole Real S.H.I.E.L.D. arc wasn't very well written, and there are a number of problems with it overall, but Mack should be allowed to be angry at Fitz (especially given the whole Framework debacle and losing Hope for a second time, which clearly bothered him when you look at him in the finale during the Fitz scenes). That everyone pretty much already handwaved Fitz's actions at this point (except for Daisy) is a bit much, even for this show.

Let's not forget how he was impressed by a display of being held hostage while a woman was being tortured in front of him.

No, he didn't, because Deke sacrificed absolutely nothing. Except Valkyrie never romanticized her actions, she's in a movie that has critiques against imperialism (as Taika Waititi has explained), and Deke has victim-blamed Daisy for his actions and even trivialized his actions in the previous episode with Fitz (where he said Fitz impressed him - which was disgusting). How about we cut it with framing Deke as a hero for selling a woman to Kasius for money? Because I can do without hearing you trying to frame Deke as some kind of hero for being a slaver, especially when he's not even consistent about his justifications for selling Daisy. Nope - comparing a slaver to Captain America or Iron Man is still ridiculous. Neither of them were ever impressed by seeing a man nearly murder an entire crew of people while he brutally tortured a woman begging for help, so keep in mind how silly it is when you try to compare either character to Deke. Also, Simmons let Fitz loose despite the fact that he can go full Ward, so she really isn't the best person to use as an example right now.

He spent his life working against the goals that his parents strived for and helped maintain the status quo that the Kree imposed. He sold a woman into slavery for money. He willingly worked for Kasius, even though he was already exploiting people with his Framework network. He only aligned himself with Coulson because he wanted to speak with his father. He showed no concern for the denizens of the Lighthouse as Flint continually expressed concern for them. Are you seriously trying to compare this cretin to Captain America, or even Iron Man?

Steve was a good person who wanted to stop bullies despite lacking the physical capacity that some of his fellow soldiers possessed, and the grenade scene was meant to highlight the kind of hero he truly was even though he was small and not physically imposing. To compare a slaver like Deke with Captain America is a bit much. It will never cease to amaze me how people will romanticize repugnant characters like Ward or Deke.

You're thinking of Trip and Andrew, who actually sacrificed their lives for others. Deke, on the other hand, had a hollow sacrifice that was written to try and balance out the fact that he worked for Kasius and sold a person into slavery for money. I disagree. Deke should go. He serves no purpose on the canvas. I'd personally love it if this show added a man of color. It's been five years - I think they could have another man of color without trivializing him or killing him off. We're addressing Daisy and Deke, not the actors who play them. Deke is the person who sold Daisy into slavery, and not everyone is willing to overlook slavery for the same reasons that folks were willing to overlook Ward being a remorseless Nazi who once threatened to rape Daisy.

I don't see why. Daisy changed her mind about S.H.I.E.L.D. because of Coulson and the crew in season one. Daisy's mind was changed about Ward once she discovered he was Hydra. Daisy was wrong about her mother in season two, and admitted as much. I'm not a big fan of Fitz doing some terrible things and people trying to rationalize it by blaming the people he hurt. Daisy was tortured, Mack was injured protecting Yo-yo, and this could've easily been avoided if he explained that her powers were the only means of dealing with the rift. It's not like Daisy would have let people die rather than seal the rift. The writers haven't even bothered to deal with Daisy dealing with her trauma because everyone but Daisy seems to have already forgiven Fitz for crossing such drastic lines (the characters in general seem to be getting the short drift in favor of the Fitz and Simmons story, which I've never found remotely appealing because of how the writers handled it in the early seasons). And restoring her powers is one thing, but it's the manner in which he did it which is the issue - which was putting the entire team at risk from his dangerous robots and torturing a woman. Deke mentioned that he thought Daisy and him were developing a connection (in the present day), and she shut him down, so it's not accurate to say that he hasn't tried to pursue her. That would be pretty damn disgusting considering that he sold her into slavery for money and she has repeatedly said she isn't interested in him even after he sold her into slavery.

Some of us are just tired of characters crossing lines without consequence. It's a bit frustrating when people seem to act like selling someone into slavery for money is akin to leaving the toilet seat up. Yeah, there are certainly times that the plot hasn't allowed characters to act in a more sensible manner (like no one questioning why it would've been so easy to hack into Hale's phone), but Deke has no real proficiency with firerms. He ran a real risk of shooting Daisy because, unlike May and Daisy, he's using a weapon he has no real experience with (guns were generally banned in the Lighthouse).

I have huge issues with the "no means yes" mentality that some have when it comes to how women feel about men who are interested in them. Those pairings don't usually involve slavery and the woman already knowing the man. Daisy knows Deke, and she's made it clear she doesn't like him. What you're suggesting is that she does a 180 on her feelings, as if Deke's desires are the only thing that should matter. Yeah, that much is obvious. A one-sided infatuation isn't a romance, and the show being unable to properly criticize Deke for his role as a slaver doesn't make his actions any less reprehensible.

Yeah - Daisy. Repeatedly. And she's the only person who needs to say that. When Daisy just met Deke, she rebuffed him. She said she wanted to kill him when he sold her to Kasius. She's made it clear she isn't interested in him when they've been on modern day Earth. And those couples you're talking about don't usually involve one of the partners being the victim of the other person, which makes the entire pairing gross and pointless (it was bad enough when people wanted to see Daisy with Ward even after the rape threat).

Daisy has repeatedly rebuffed Deke and made it clear that she isn't interested. I don't get why some people ship two people when the woman continually says she isn't interested in the guy. It's not like she doesn't know Deke at this point. And yet, when Fitz carelessly jumped into the monolith in season three, Daisy risked her life to save Simmons and Fitz from Maveth. She also offered to sacrifice her life to deal with the rift initially in this season. I don't get why you assume that Daisy wouldn't have agreed to restore her powers if Fitz acted like a rational person and spoke with her about it, rather than building dangerous robots that nearly killed most of the team (that lead to Mack being injured, and he not only helped Fitz in season two but he didn't hold losing Hope against him when he left the Framework) and torturing the inhibitor out of Daisy. I don't need the show to handwave the ramifications of characters crossing the line - it's bad enough we have Deke on the canvas and that we were supposed to care about a slaver being shot (which lead to people with no prior medical knowledge fixing him up - you'd think the base would have an actual medical doctor available and not just someone the show handwaved some medical expertise between seasons one and two).

But letting Fitz out wasn't the answer, and she's being obtuse in acting like he can simply get over his behavioral issues. His robots nearly killed the team, he tortured a woman, he thinks he did the right thing, and he's admitted that he's given in to his Framework counterpart - that's not someone who should be let loose from his cell.

I think it's the manner in which Simmons seems to be glossing over what he's done rather than wanting to see him get real help. It would be one thing if she wanted him to get psychiatric help to get better, but it's another for her to be upset with Daisy because Fitz is now dangerous and for her to screw over Mack, who was nothing but empathetic towards her when Fitz's robot could have killed him. That there's a pattern of men like Ward (in the Framework), Deke, and now Fitz doing terrible things - and having those actions handwaved - is where the issue arises for me. Wanting to see Fitz get some real help (rather than presuming that love cures all or whatever nonsense she thinks will resolve his psychological issues), and letting him loose so that he has the potential to become another Ward are two very different things. If Simmons let Fitz loose because he was about to be executed, I could understand her actions, but letting him loose despite him explicitly saying that he's dangerous (and after what he did to most of the team)? It's getting too much. I don't expect Deke's screw-up to be held against him for long, but it also suggests (to me) that Deke coming into the past is only reinforcing the cycle that the crew is caught up in.

I honestly don't get the point of Deke being shot (from a narrative perspective). He's the guy who sold Daisy into slavery. He doesn't really have any friends on the team. He's not adding contributing anything unique to the team. Even his presence on the team hasn't even been rationalized on the show (I'm talking about the decision to bring him along before his jump into the past; there's never been an excuse used to explain why he was brought along in the first pod - he was simply brought with them because he's a white man of a certain age and this show needed that spot filled).