Lobsel Vith

Fitz was locked up because he was viewed to be a danger, and even he admitted that he was hearing the Doctor. The possibility of him giving in to his Hydra persona existed, but that's been almost entirely forgotten by the show at this point. There was the possibility of him becoming a threat, the same way Ward was a threat to everyone. That's what I'm referring to.

They're the same people who excuse Fitz for what he did. Elena is held to a different standard because she isn't Fitz, or even Deke (who was excused for his actions). The whole fight with Daisy seemed pretty contrived as a means of bringing forth a new conflict to move away from the prior schism that they have no real interest in delving into because it would make Fitz look bad (and Mack's own dressing down of Fitz was pretty tame, all things considered).

Which made no sense. Given that Deke was still callous about selling her into slavery, was disrespectful towards her when she was the leader, and has defied orders, why is Daisy saying she's glad he's around? Why is Daisy confiding in Deke instead of Mack? Given how badly he screwed things up last time, why he is even allowed on a mission when he can't seem to follow orders during an op? This is so badly written. It feels like an easy way for the writers to ignore the issues regarding Fitz by bringing up a new schism in the ranks - so you have Daisy and Elena fighting instead of people addressing Fitz as a possible danger who might go full Ward, who tortured Daisy, who endangered Mack's life, and spun the current crisis into motion by giving in to Ruby when he could have said no (which was the crux of his argument for torturing Daisy - 'the greater good').

And based on the article it seems that the writers aren’t dropping Deke’s gross crush on Daisy. I really don’t get the mindset of trying to suggest that a man who sold a woman into slavery might end up being paired with her. It’s like the writers lack common sense to understand how absurd and abhorrent this is.

Valkyrie was a character in an anti-imperialism storyline who lost a female lover, is played by an Afro-Latina actress, and represents one of the few prominent WoC in the MCU. Some have even spoken to how she speaks to certain indigenous experiences with how she’s written. Deke doesn’t play any of those roles at all. I don’t think Coulson will come back (it would require too much of an explanation that the films don’t want to bother with). Even Joss Whedon said a while back that bringing back Coulson seemed to irritate the film division.

After Framework Ward having Ward’s victims used as props and the ridiculous handwaving of Deke, I don’t need to see this show gloss over any more atrocious actions. May and Daisy hurting Coulson wouldn’t mitigate the fact that Fitz didn’t even bother trying to speak with Daisy, and that his robots endangered the lives of everyone on the base. May and Daisy doing something bad doesn’t absolve Fitz of what he did to Daisy and Mack. Also, I wouldn’t say he did it to save the world. He did have the chance to save the world, and he gave in to Ruby instead.

Given how the writers have set up that Coulson needs to die via Future Elena's prophecy, I wouldn't be surprised if that's the route they take to "break" the loop (I'd imagine Future Elena would have said something entirely different if there was another scenario that was meant to happen). And given the fracture with the team, I suspect everyone might be going their own way - Elena and Mack are on the outs (and Mack expressed a desire to leave early this season), Fitz and Simmons aren't seeing eye to eye with Daisy, and May could go either way.

I said in the post you quoted that May and Daisy are wrong to ignore Coulson's wishes, but that it's not going to be the same as Daisy enduring torture at Fitz's hands (unless Coulson is tortured in the process, in which case it would be the same).

The issue is still that, if Coulson has to regularly take this remedy to stay alive, it's not like he can be coerced into doing so. Garrett's remedy wasn't permanent, which is why he needed to find out how Coulson was brought back. It's wrong for May and Daisy to ignore Coulson's wishes once all is said and done, but considering that Daisy was being tortured in the process of the inhibitor being removed, it wouldn't quite be the same thing unless Coulson was also tortured in the process of his life being saved (and we saw how suicidal Coulson was the first time he regained all his memories in season one of the process that saved his life, so I can understand why he wouldn't want to go through that again).

Whitehall drained Jiaying's entire body to make that happen, and Jiaying has been dead for years now (which is admittedly what I find odd about the narrative decision to use her given body decomposition). I'm not saying it isn't possible (since it's ultimately up to the writers how they want to resolve Coulson's current dilemma, presuming they want to spare him), but if Daisy is going off of Garrett's initial cocktail (which seems to be what the Candyman gave her), and how Garrett and Coulson both had injuries that were meant to kill them (although, in Coulson's case, it technically did), I'd presume that it shouldn't only be one. Captain Marvel is going to be a prequel, so I don't think present day Coulson will factor much into it (especially with the schism between the film and television divisions of Marvel having issues with one another, I don't see AoS factoring into any of the movies at all).

Simmons told Elena (in the episode where Elena helped break Fitz out of his cell), but we haven't had a scene where any of the other agents have been told.

Yeah, they could end up surprising us. Yeah, Garrett was looking for a permanent solution. Daisy seemed to be looking at Garrett's initial cocktail (the one he was using before he discovered how Coulson was brought back to life), and Garrett's temporary remedy seemed to also include cybernetics (he was the first Deathlok). I think the situation is going to be complicated enough that May and Daisy are going to have to talk about it with Coulson at some point - if this is going to involve cybernetics and taking this cocktail regularly, and Coulson still seems set on dying at this point.

The issue that comes into play is not simply the stakes - which was the world in the case of Fitz and Simmons, since they both acknowledge that Ruby might destroy the planet - but also Fitz's conduct with Daisy, which is the shadow that looms over how he gave in to Ruby. That's why this isn't the same. Moving on, I understand that May and Daisy don't want to lose him, but this solution isn't going to work if Coulson doesn't agree to it.

I'm not sure I see how practical that is. Wouldn't Jiaying's body have decomposed at this point? It seemed different the first time, where Whitehall stored samples and Cal found her not long after she was discarded by Hydra, but at this point she's been buried for years. And then there's the issue that May and Daisy will need to convince Coulson to get cybernetic implants and regularly administering this serum (if they're following what Garrett did to stay alive), and even then Garrett's solution was temporary (which is why he wanted to know how Coulson came back since his remedy was a temporary fix) so this would likely only delay the inevitable.

Then you must dislike Fitz for choosing Simmons over the world and giving Ruby the power that put Elena in the position where she felt she had to kill Ruby.

A stance that presumes that Daisy could have easily killed Ruby when we saw how easily she crushed Alex's skull without even meaning to, and how she could have killed Daisy effortlessly. I don't think it's as simple as you're making it out to be. Except Fitz still proceeded with his plan after Simmons snapped him out of his daze, so the Hive comparison doesn't really work after that point. Fitz made a mess of things and caused problems by thinking he knew better than everyone else. His arrogance nearly killed Mack. But he had time to construct multiple robots? Come on now. Daisy has changed her mind before, so the notion that she couldn't be persuaded 'until it was too late' comes across more like a transparent attempt to exonerate Fitz for torturing her than it does a genuine stance about her behavior.

Daisy thought she could get through to Ruby, and this isn't an example that - in any way, shape, or form - helps your argument at all. Daisy thinking that she could reach Ruby doesn't mean she would have condemned civilization. Personally, I don't believe Elena was wrong to take the action that she did (there's nothing that suggested Ruby could genuinely be redeemed), but this has nothing to do with what Fitz did.

Five years of the character continually showing a willingness to help people, even if it meant she could die (she was willing to give up her life to initially deal with the rift in the 100th episode, and she was also willing to stay in the future if it meant that she couldn't endanger anyone when she thought she was the Destroyer of Worlds).

And how do you know that Daisy couldn't be persuaded to have the inhibitor removed? In exactly five seasons of screentime, what exactly makes you think Daisy wouldn't have chosen a path that could have saved lives?

No, talking to her was an option, but it was one he discarded completely, similar to when he refused to even consult her about his plan to recklessly jump into the portal to Maveth to try and find Simmons, which put Daisy's life at risk when she had to keep the portal open longer than she was anticipating. And given how Daisy has continually shown a willingness to risk her life for others, even at the expense of her own life, I'm not sure why you think she couldn't be persuaded. I think the fact that it's Fitz who did it colors how people look at what happened, and it's why some people refuse to hold him accountable or judge him.

I'd say it was bad and unnecessary. Rather than stage some elaborate plan that endangered the lives of everyone on the base, Fitz could have spoken to Daisy. He could have talked to her about the rift, about the possible danger, and he could have easily persuaded her. Instead of building dangerous robots, he could have acquired pain medication. That people are acting like Fitz couldn't have gone about things any other way is part of the problem - what he did was wrong, and it's a lot more egregious than things that other characters have done.

If Fitz hadn't nearly killed the entire team and tortured Daisy, he wouldn't have been locked in a cell, and Daisy wouldn't have been worried that he would have endangered the lives of everyone on the base. The fault for Daisy being wary of Fitz going full Ward is Fitz - no one else. Not Daisy, not Mack, not Yo-yo - just Fitz. Mack lost Hope for a second time. That's going to color whatever good memories he shared with her in the Framework. Except that presumes the Superior and his LMD army would have simply stepped aside for Ruby, and that's highly unlikely. Fitz & Simmons screwing things up isn't speculation - it's what happened on the show. Daisy quaked Fitz because he tortured her. And it was less painful than the agonizing pain she went through. And this is the second time Fitz tortured Daisy (and the second time the show pretty much handwaved his actions).

And yet no one comments on Fitz trying to speak to Simmons when he could have easily been overheard, how he suggests at one point to Enoch that they simply "shoot [their] way out", that he again tries to speak with Simmons despite the risk of being overheard, and that he had no real plan. It's odd how only Daisy is criticized, and not Fitz. And it becomes a huge issue for me when the reason for criticizing Daisy is to justify slavery. While I can't believe anyone would ever support a man selling a woman into slavery.

Deke, at first, blames Daisy, and then says it was likely a parallel universe version of her due to the Many Worlds Theory of quantum mechanics. He didn't sell Daisy into slavery thinking she was responsible for destroying the world, and given his flip-flop justifications for doing so (that change depending on who he's speaking with), he clearly did it for the money. Doesn't make the move any less hollow on the part of the writers when MoC like Trip and Andrew had actual deaths and this was done simply to try and handwave Deke selling a person into slavery. One single action also doesn't absolve him of being a slaver. They didn't sell people into slavery for money, so it's never going to be the same. Deke isn't Trip, he isn't Mack, he isn't Joey, he's a guy who sold Daisy and emphasized how he expected some serious compensation from Kasius, and then sided with Coulson when he realized he might be able to speak with his father. Deke being a slaver is always going to be an issue for some people, which is why he never should have been brought over to the cast in the first place. Honestly, we could have had another character who was morally grey, perhaps someone who helped Daisy when she's enslaved as opposed to selling her into slavery (which would make the future "comedic scenes" less awkward since they would not involve a slaver), perhaps even having this character oppose or kill Deke. A man of color would've been interesting given how little Trip, Andrew, Joey, and even Robbie received in comparison to their white counterparts (Deke, as a recent example), and it would've made the character having feelings for Daisy much less awkward without the slaver issue, not to mention it's currently coming across like this show has an inability to try and pair her with someone who isn't a white male (which is a bit ridiculous when you consider that she was involved with Miles, Ward, and Lincoln in less than two years of the show being on the air). Romance aside, someone who actually helped the team would've made sense as someone they would take with him, as opposed to the person who betrayed them by selling one of their own to Kasius (which basically makes the crew bringing him along in the first pod completely nonsensical). A lot of things simply don't work with Deke because his involvement in selling someone into slavery is always going to be the primary issue with the character, and not everyone is willing to handwave that.

Fitz and Simmons were responsible for giving Ruby the power that put Elena in the situation where she felt that killing Ruby was a serious option (aside from her own desire for revenge, she does genuinely think that Ruby was the Destroyer of Worlds). You can say you understand why they took that action, but they are ultimately responsible for giving in to Ruby and bestowing her with the power that lead Elena to think that Ruby had become the Destroyer of Worlds (my personal issue with the scene has to do with how Fitz acted towards the crew and Daisy when it came to the crisis of the rift, since it's clear now his priority wasn't the town or the world but his wife). Therefore, I have issue with some of the comments I've read on twitter and in places like reddit where people put all the blame on Elena's shoulders. And I really don't think that Daisy could have handled Ruby for the long-term; she was seriously messed up and had powers that were beyond her control, along with two people vying for control (something that is driving Creel into a type of madness). There have been conflicts before this over how little Coulson and May were getting (from the people who shipped them) because they feel that Fitz and Simmons are getting all the story, and it's bled into other communities as well (reddit tends to be a haven for Ward, Deke, and Fitz fans so not so much there). No, I meant that it isn't as if they weren't aware of the risks. Typo on my part.