Raachel2008

I'm not a crier, but I was very moved by Jaime and Tyrion last scene in the show. I want to be moved by Jon and Arya farewall, but D&D didn't care at all about writing the Starks siblings with the same level of "care" they gave to the Lannisters, so...

I was thinking show, not book. In the context of the books it is pretty believable, specially if Drogon doesn't see it. How would he know it was Jon?

So banging someone makes you shallow? Even if you don't think he loves her (and I think we are supposed to think he does), it is clear that he cares about her - as a friend, an ex-lover, a fellow Targ, whatever. He showed compassion in the way he deal with her. I'm not sure how he could show more compassion to her when he found out she is his aunt. He should keep sleeping with her even though it is against his believes? Incest may not be a big deal for the Targaryens, but it is for the Starks (and most Westerosi). And, I'm sorry, once Dany decided to be ruthless and kill everyone, and rule as a tyrant, what is his options? Go with it? I think it is a very very very hard spot they put Jon, I think it is clear that from starting on season 6 on, D&D didn't try to make things work. Ok, you have 26 episode to tell the whole story, but it is possible. Because as much as it was a screen time problem, it was also a WRITING problem. You don't have screentime for write the epic love story between Dany and Jon? Cut some of the dragon flying and write a couple of scenes where they talk something silly and flirt. You want to write Tyrion sticking to the right thing and being awesome? Write it in a way that you don't undermine the character. Easier: you want to write Tyrion finding Jaime under the rubble? Don't write an entire building falling on top him. Unblock that exit that was closed by rocks and make the whole thing crash while they are under the arch. Yes, it would still go against the laws of physics that those bricks/stones wouldn't cover him completely, but it would be better. Small things here and there would have made the whole thing much better.

I don't think people will be pissed off by Jon going North, but the King Bran thing will cause a riot. But in the show he fell for a feisty personality, dry humor, strong will, along other traits - many or them shared with Dany in some level. I don't mind the Jon/Dany thing, I just don't think they are the best actors on screen and it shows in most of their scenes. I guess Drogon wouldn't kill him because he is part Targ. I'm not sure why Grey Worm doesn't kill Jon, maybe he knows Jon is now the king and don't want to start a war with whoever is left to fight? Ro be fair Jon's people always wanted to slaughter her people, so...

Nerve going to happen. Jaime will be find alive under all that rubble and have 6 kids with Brienne before they give us a scene with Jon and Ghost playing in the snow. But I'm sure we'll get a lot of shots of Drogon flying Since forever. Arya has always been a curious child, in the books she wandered around Winterfell, and in the show it has been established since the very first chapter that she wanted to see more, be in an adventure, etc. It fits her perfectly. This is where I disagree with you. I agree that the scene was poorly done, but it was pretty clear he always loved Cersei more than anything. It is not about self-loathing, but I think about acceptance that Cersei is and will always be the love of his live. He didn't leave Winterfell to die with her. He left Winterfell to save her. It is not that Jaime can never be free from Cersei. It is that he wants to be with her. When push comes to shove, he loves Cersei more, much more. Deep down, maybe he wished to love Brienne more, but he didn't.

Which Stark women? Catelyn, murdered after watching her son, daughter in law and unborn grandchild killed, as well as lot of her friends? Sansa, raped by Ramsay, used by Joffrey and Littlefinger? Arya, who saw he father executed when she was a child, was beaten and made blind by a assassin who trains children to be murders? I’m sorry but all women in this show suffered tons, and half of the men, too. Brienne got it “easier” than most of them.

Well, they could have done the same in GoT, no?

So, what you are saying is that there is a solution and they chose to no use it for GoT? And yes, I want my direwolves. They were always way more cool than the dragons.

Well that is one of the easiest answers in this clutterfuck. Jon was never trully happy at Winterfell, and he really doesn't want to rule. If he stays in Winterfell, either he rules (he is still KITN) or he ends undermining Sansa just by being there. Also, let's be real: he was never as happy as he was during his days with the Free Folk, and I don't even mean that because of Ygritte. He found his tribe there. Simple like that. And no, Orlando is too fun and warm for Jon.

But there is no Night Watch anymore. The Night (the NK) came and they won. The NK is dead. Threre are only two remaining former crows, Sam and Jon. And Jon is noit joining something that doesn't exist. He is being sent to the North by Tyrion so Grey Worm believes he is being punished - GW wouldn't really know that the NW is gone. I just want the show to be over, to be honest. I made my peace with most of those endings, which are tragic, bitter and a couple of them really bittersweet. Except for Bran as king - I loathe this. I will forever and ever curse D&D for not wanting to do full seasons, thus butching entire plots and characters, and refusing to let someone else take the helm. I'm not sure if I will watch the prequel, though. We'll see, And I really really really wish GRRM would write those fucking books.

But this one, for me, is the only one that really makes zero sense.

Which is why I don't understand why HBO settled for everything D&D wanted, ie. two last seasons with only six episodes. The cast would have done the "extra" eight episodes, HBO would have paid them. I wonder what kind of contract D&D had that HBO didn't push for new showrunners or to have them in another capacity with the bulk of the work with other people. Sigh. I can only think how much better the show could have been with all that "extra" time.

The real problem was none of that but the fact that Jon had bent the knee, thus ruining any chance of an independent North. Because everybody knew that Dany wasn't going to give up the North. Dany knew. Tyrion knew. Sansa knew. Every single lord knew that. Jon himself knew that but he chose to sacrifice a possible North independence in order to save the North from the NK. And the thing Sansa wants the most is the North, but a North where she is a 100% safe and that was only ever going to happen if the North wasn't ruled by anyone whose name isn't Stark - preferably her, though I think Sansa would live with Jon as king, because she knows he would never screw her.

To be fair Davos had very little screen time this season. Another stupid thing this show did: they wasted Lian Cunningham.

It doesn't matter if Sansa was actively conspiring against Daenerys or not. What matter is that Sansa couldn't keep her promise to Jon, revealing his secret to the world and underming Dany's quest to the throne, because Jon was the rightful heir. She could have told that Jon was a Targaryen to, I dunno, Pod or Brienne, and the effect would still be the same - because soon or later would be known that Dany was not the heir. FWIW, I don't think Sasnsa was conspiring, but hoping someone would. She took a chance with Tyrion, who despise her many problems with, she knew she could trust.

I didn't forget any of that. My point is that if their costumes were so set on stone, it shouldn't have matter if she walked into a fire and birthed dragons. So why should I think they will be focused to avenger their Khaleesi? I'm not saying they shouldn't, just saying I don't think that if they don't it is not absurd. Now what I want to know is: will the Dothraki join the Unsullied and sail to free people or they will just go back to their way of live? Or they changed and won't pilage and rape anymore? It went too long, but I liked it. It was a perfect third person view to the horros of war. All those spoilers don't fill 80 minutes. I'm expecting Arya to have at least one talk scene with Sansa and Gendry. Maybe Brienne, too. Was it Peter Dinklage who spoild Bran as king?

You mean the same costumes that dictated that the widow of a Khal should live until the end of her life at Vaes Dothrak with the dosh khaleen? Sure.

I'm sorry, but this is stupid beyond words. What is Grey Worm going to do? Kill everybody and then rule King's Landing? Why Bran, who is king now, thus, I assume, has to concede anything to Grey Worm? Danny is dead. The queen is dead, long life to the king. A ruler is gone, the new ruler rules. And just to be clear, I'm no saying this because it is Jon - who by the way happens to be the heir of the throne - but because it makes zero zero zero sense. I really didn't remenber that. I predict a ton of fics where Dany is reborn by Drogon's fire, etc, etc.

Yeah, and if they don't want to be "free" she is just going to burn then all and them really "free" them, right? This is stupid, but makes sense due to last episode. What is Sansa from all people doing in King's Landing? She never trusted Dany, and by now she has to know that Dany killed all that people. Sansa was never as smart as they wanted us to believe, but she was never that stupid, certainly not in the last two seasons, at least. This is stupid. I'm never, NEVER going to accept that. Bran is not Bran, he is the 3ER and he doesn't care about any that. He said so. People know that. Why they would chose Bran? And if Bran is king, as in a real king, are they expecting a dinasty? Or when Bran dies they will chose a new one? This is stupid. Is this to please Grey Worm, so he leaves King's Landing with this men? Because it makes zero Kelvin sense for Jon to be punished or for Tyrion even consider a punishment (or Bran for the matter). Is it a farse? This is stupid. There is no wall anymore, for fuck's sake. This is stupid. Royce? ROYCE??? This is stupid. How it is even possible for Ellaria to be alive? Didn't Cersei said she was going to die watching Tyene's body rot? Didn't it happen at least a few months ago in GoT time? This is stupid. A pat? D&D reaaaally hate the direwolves. dont't they? These fuckers. Happy to see Yara and Brienne at the council. This is not stupid. Everything else is stupid.

Absolutely, even the same angles. "What the mad-Daenerys apologists often seem to want is something different. They don’t just want to prove that some female leaders are bad and corrupt, they want to prove that power can only be corrupting for women. Plenty of men, on the right and left, have assured me that I only care about the misogyny because I don’t understand foreign policy, or that by even seeking a queenship, Daenerys proved herself to be a bad, selfish, power-mad person, and only awful people would root for her. That screeching — see? See? You stupid women wanted your feminist princess and she’s evil!!!!" Eh, but the show showed in several levels, how power or the chance of seizing the power, and no matter how much, corrupted some men: Robert, Theon, Allisair Thorne, Viserys, the High Sparrow, etc - Ramsay and Joffrey are a whole different story. And how some of the women with power, like Olenna, Sansa, Margaery, Ellaria were not corrupted by power, though power, no matter how much, gave some of them and other women the means to make some questionable decisions that I wouldn't call exactly corrupted by power. And I also feel sorry for the author being surrounded by such dicks, because the men who watch the show with me are either "damm, I wanted her to rule", or "power corrupts everyone", or "whoa, it takes a lot of guts to just do what she did". But thanks for the link. She has a very interesting view on the rape on the show, and how the women wanted to have power to be themselves. I will never agree that Dany was just "sad and her dad was mad", for me thinking process was other. Also, Dany was never a more than competent military strategist. She was ok at best (same goes for more than half of the cast). Not all of the Northern forces. But they weren't exactly following Jon when chaos erupted, were them? They were following Grey Worm.

Like I said, it is a very subtle line between crazy and evil, and for me, what I saw on screen, was Dany making a decision; she had agency, she knew what the bells meant, she could have stopped, she chose to rule by fear. She told Jon so. And I strongly disagree that the loss of her dragons or Missandei didn't meant anything, they did. Just look at her face when Missandei was killed. She was furious - as she should. The reasons for Dany deciding to unleash all her power and rule by fear were on screen. She always wanted the throne, her most important goal was to get the throne and rule. Since she was barren and thought she was the last Targaryen, it was not even about restoring the Targaryens, but putting one last Targaryen on throne. Her whole identity was forged primarily on that and bang! She is not the rightful heir of the Iron Throne, but the spare. Two of her "children" are dead, her "BFFs' Jorah and Missandei are dead. And yes, it was pretty clear people wouldn't give her Mysha levels of adoration, which was told to her more than once by every single hand/advisor she had. And Jon didn't want to be with her because she is his aunt. All of those reasons, add something to her final decision to burn King's Landing - I personally think that Jon not wanting to be with romantically anymore is the less important in the *short term*. I agree that it could have been better written, better developped, etc. But I don't sell Dany so short that I think she was pictured as snotty jealous brat. She was portrayed as a conqueror who decided to conquer and show how she was going to rule. In a way, it was sort of empowering. Had they done the exactly same thing to a male character nobody would be calling it sexism. Anyway, that is my point.

I apologize if you fell like I was insulting you, that wasn't my intention at all. But when do you think the writers have portrayed the women in the show as hysterical? it is an honest question here, because I don't think they did, death scnenes aside. But of course it was done deliberately; if you show children being burned/killed every other season you lost the impact you want to tell. That's a narrative fact, and very true in real life. People become "numb" to this horror, which is one thing that GRRM always stressed as long as his oposition with that. We saw Jaime raping Cersei. We saw the aftermath of the Dorathki raping peope in season 1 - some say we saw rape. We know what Ramsay did to Sansa, who, by the way, was almost raped in the riot in King's Landing so many seasons ago. We saw a North soldier trying to rape a woman. As far as rape go, we had plenty of proof they happened on the show. My point is that I don't think Dany being cruel and ruthless is sexist. Are female characters supposed to not be evil? They should always be right? Smart? Brave? Courageous? They cannot be scared, or angry, or violent, or feminine or princess like? Or the problem is because a fan favorite crossed that line, said fuck it all and unleashed hell?

Because he was following Dany. It you rewatch the episode, they stop when the bells ring, then he looks up, see that Dany stopped, then when she starts burning everything again he attacks the Lannisters. It's the whole "he is a soldier excuse", which for me only work so far. Jon and Davos stopped, didn't they? But as many things in this episode, we could have seen some Unsullied backing down, just like we saw some Northners keeping up with the violence. I really want to know what happens to the Dothraki, the Unsullied, the Northners and the remaining Lannisters in the next episode. If someone kills Dany, does her Army just leave Westeros? How do the cross the sea? What about the Lannisters? Does Jon kill the Northners who didn't respect the bells?

But it sill doesn't answer WHY.

I understand what you are trying to say, but I dont agree the reasons the writers have shown are *sexists*. Danny has always been consistent in her motivations - sit on the Iron Throne - and her loyalty, if we can say so - to her own narrative: the last Targaryen, the rightfully heir of the throne. We've seen since the beggining that she could be ruthless and impatient, just like Stannis - and several other characters. Yes, Dany has good qualities and so did Stannis. Yes, Dany crossed a line, consistent with elements of emotion and personality. Those traits were on screen. This is the case with Danny, and the how and why was on screen. I agree - I DO agree - that it was rushed and maybe not organic, but there are people, like me, that had a lot of trouble watching Stannis burning his own daughter who he we all thought he loved more than anything. But he did not. Same with Dany. We all thought that she would never burn innocent people and she did. Why is it sexist, because she is a mass murderer and he 'only' killed his own daughter? OR giving the female character the power, the reasons AND the agency to do so is not empowering in a way?