stagmania
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Posts posted by stagmania
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Just now, kittykat said:
Honestly I always found Tyrions terrible tactics out of character and more or less blamed D&D's crappy plotting to pare down Dany's armies and stay Cersei's death until S8.
Yeah I think that's a fair way to spin it since they clearly still want the audience to view him as a hero. You'd think if they knew he was ending up as Hand they'd have him be successful or right about anything in the last couple seasons.
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1 minute ago, Minneapple said:
The only time I maybe believed in them was when Dany agreed to help against the AOTD and Jon bent the knee. If they had had more time and developed the relationship better it might have been more believable, but I honestly found them awkward from the start.
I just said to a friend today that this is the only scene they ever had that came off as somewhat romantic. I do think it was more than a lack of actor chemistry, though - there was no real romantic story written for them. It went from this to one very bad and abrupt sex scene with no dialogue, to then suddenly being told they're together and the incident that would make it fall apart happening in the same episode. The love story, such as it was, literally lasted 3 episodes, and this is what they're hanging their big story-ending tragedy on.
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7 minutes ago, kittykat said:
Agreed about the Lannisters, despite their hatred for another Tyrion and Cersei could never pull the trigger on one another. And to those hating on Tyrion freeing Jaime as treason, Jaime committed treason by freeing Tyrion in 4.10 so I saw it more as paying it back.
Personally, I'm not hating on that as a character choice for Tyrion. My issue with it is that there are no consequences for it, or anything Tyrion has done for the last three seasons. After the way they've written him since season 5, he really has no business ending this story as de facto ruler.
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14 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:
I just was just never convinced by this romance on screen.
This is exactly the point I was making in the first place - they did not write the romance well, and it lessens the impact of the tragic ending. Glad we can agree!
4 minutes ago, Lady Iris said:*small voice* I liked the Lost ending. Vincent that beautiful dog.
I will sit with you at this table.
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6 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:
Dany wasting time with Cersei's truce
Legitimately have no idea what this means. Jon shouldn't love Dany because she listened to him and her advisers and delayed going after Cersei to help save humanity?
QuoteThe only tragic love story was seasons 2, 3, and 4 with Ygritte. It was done convincingly because Ygritte was quite normal and never as problematic as Dany was.
Uh, I loved Ygritte and that romance, but she was a straight up murderer who was killed trying to slaughter Jon's people. Weird how there's room for nuance with some characters but not others.
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24 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:
I'm so happy they didn't. Jon Snow falling in love with a mass murderer, and actually desiring that? There's nothing to be conflicted about there.
...the idea is he would be in love with her before she commits an atrocity, and then have to kill her after. That's what makes it a tragedy.
4 minutes ago, Soup333 said:Or maybe he “forgot” that Dany was his mother.
LOL. They're never living that meme down.
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9 minutes ago, screamin said:
His back feet? Can't be his wings if he's going to fly off with her. Will look pretty odd if he flies off with her tucked between his toes.
The final humiliation for their Khaleesi. Stripped of every good quality she ever possessed and her dignity, as well.
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8 hours ago, anamika said:
I think they will spend some time on Jon and Dany and Jon having to kill her. It's after all their big ending for the series. Dany and the man she loved having to kill her. If they do this in 10 minutes, the backlash these guys have seen thus far will be nothing compared to what they will get for the finale.
Given how terrible both their characterizations have been this season, I expect this to be painful on several levels. I also just keep thinking about how badly they’ve set up what is obviously supposed to play as tragedy. How much deeper would this land if they’d written them a proper romance? If Jon actually was in love with Daenerys? If they didn’t have him just avoid her once he found out who he is, but rather sincerely struggle to reconcile his identity issues, his desire for her, his disapproval of her actions and his duty to take the throne for the good of the people. This should have been very meaty material for Jon (and Kit Harrington) and instead it was just a big ol’ nothing.
ETA: Jinx, @Soup333!
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8 minutes ago, Oscirus said:
He only came up with that plan because he knew that was the only way to motivate Jamie to ring the bells and end the bloodshed while putting cersei on the throne
He spent literally two seasons dissuading Dany from taking out Cersei, so I don't buy this at all.
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2 minutes ago, Umbelina said:
He doesn't care about individuals. Ayra never killed innocent people, she was, if anything, the hand of justice. She was never a "genocidal maniac" in any sense.
I'm talking about Cersei. Tyrion's sister. Were your comments about Bran? If so, my bad - you were responding to a comment about Tyrion so I thought that's who you meant.
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1 minute ago, Umbelina said:
He wants one thing. Survival of the human species as a whole. Right about now, a hell of a lot of people would settle for that.
Does he? Because that is inconsistent with his attempt to help his sister, genocidal maniac, free. Protector of the human species, unless it involves his family.
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3 minutes ago, Umbelina said:
However, the fact that they VOTED could mean they are taking baby steps toward democracy, or simply having a commonwealth. It's not out of the blue in Westeros, the Free Folk have for ages.
If I'm understanding correctly, the only people who voted are this small insular group of highborn people who were choosing among their friends, right? Like, they already appointed themselves as the power in the realm and the only real debate was what specific role they would each play. I think calling that a vote or anything in the neighborhood of democracy is extremely charitable.
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1 hour ago, Couver said:
I hope the common people at least don't buy this smoke show. But given the lack of focus on any story details this season I'm sure we will never even see their reaction.
The common people have never had a real POV on the show. They're just props to be trotted out when they want to illuminate something about the highborn characters.
29 minutes ago, Affogato said:I also am fairly sure, although I could be wrong, that none of them have named themselves feminist (except in a general support of women’s rights, anyway). The books/show are indeed about power but not necessarily about women and power
The show absolutely played on feminist sentiment in both the writing and marketing. Khaleesi became a fan favorite for a reason, and it's largely because they consistently wrote her as a survivor toppling patriarchal systems of oppression - becoming the first woman to lead a Khalasar, freeing the slaves from their male masters, "All men must die." "But we are not men.", burning the Khals - just to name the most obvious examples. They don't get to do that for 7 seasons and then pull the rug out from under the audience without consequences.
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34 minutes ago, Callista said:
It disgusts me too. If Jon kills her that way, that makes him no better than Littlefinger, who killed Lysa in a similar fashion.
That hadn't even occurred to me, but you're absolutely right. Some hero that makes Jon, and you gotta love how they're going to model Dany in this scene after the original Hysterical Woman of Westeros.
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7 hours ago, Keely said:
On another note, it really bugs that Jon somehow escapes any mention of possible blood related madness while her sanity has been questioned for years.
It’s almost like there’s some kind of bias at play here!
4 hours ago, Fiver said:1. Is Dany killed in the first ten minutes of the episode? It sure seems like it. Jon stabs her right at the start, and the rest of the episode is full of boring, bureaucratic bullshit. Way to go out with a bang, show.
The idea that Jon is going to “trick” Dany into thinking he’s on her side offends me for a couple reasons: 1) Jon is a horrible liar and way too simple to pull that off; 2) Dany is not stupid and would have to be blinded by emotion to let him get close after she’s already decided he’s a traitor, so this means they’re essentially going to reduce her to desperation for his love again and have it be her ultimate downfall.
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11 minutes ago, GraceK said:
Seriously. And no one else bothers to mention that up until this episode, Daenerys has done nothing WRONG. She has done everything right. She has listened to her advisers, she has tried to make peace with Sansa, she has honored her deal with the North, she has sat back and given credit to Arya and legitimized a Baratheon for gods sake, and during it all her advisors have conspired behind her back, tried to poison her, set her enemies free, conspired to let her enemy escape, talked about overthrowing her, questioned her sanity, oh and prior have pretty much been the cause of the worst military plans EVER. And she’s the mad one???????? Seriously??? It’s the worst writing EVER. And this past episode apparently vindicates all of it because she commits genocide at the drop of a hat, so we are suddenly supposed to forget everything else. 🤦🏻♀️
Looked at through this lens, this is basically the story of a bunch of men gaslighting a powerful woman until she snaps.
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If Sansa really cared about what happens to Jon, I don’t think she would have betrayed his trust immediately and sent him South with no warning that she’d essentially put a coup in motion. She could have gotten him killed (would have if Dany reacted logically and eliminated Jon and Tyrion after burning the city).
I’m by no means a Sansa hater, but I don’t see how you can look at her actions this season and think a primary concern for her was her family. She was looking out for her own security and her desire to rule in the north above all else. Perfectly fine and understandable motives in the context of this universe, but let’s not pretend she wasn’t willing to let Jon be collateral damage in her machinations.
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1 hour ago, aprilbabe said:
More spoiler from freefolk, from a person who correctly spoiled ep 5. I hate it. And unless there some parts missing it doesn't look seem like an hour worth of an episode. So really Drogon really just flys away with Danys body and that's it. So stupid.
May 16th Updates
Jon, Davos and Tyrion are walking through the aftermath of Kings Landing. Tyrion walks through what's left of the castle and sees Jaime's hand so he starts to uncover the rubble and he confirms both Cersei and Jaime are dead. They find Grey Worm and his men they have Lannister Soldiers trapped and they're about to kill them. Jon trys to tells Grey Worm to stop. Grey Worm tells Jon that its the queens orders. Then they cut to Dany giving a speech pretty much saying how she freed the people from Kings Landing and the new goal is freeing the rest of the world. Dany turns to Tyrion and tells him he committed treason. Tyrion tells her that she killed thousands of innocent people and he takes off the hands pin and throws it. Dany sends him to prison.
Jon goes to see her and she sitting on the Iron throne alone and John tells her that she needs to stop being a crazy bitch and that Grey Worm killed the Lannisters army from the previous scene. Dany tells Jon that she's doing it for the people. Jon pretends to understand and tricks her. When her guard is down he stabs her. Drogon comes and is standing over her body and he burns or melts the Iron throne and carries her away.
Grey Worm has Tyrion and Jon as his prisoners. The *council is (led by Sansa) tells Grey Worm to release Jon back to them but he refuses. That's when Tyrion says that the new King or Queen should decide what happens to Jon. Sam suggest for a democratic vote for the new king. Tyrion calls that idea stupid. The council votes and decide Bran Should be the King. Bran picks Tyrion as his hand.
Tyrion tells Jon that his punishment is going back to the wall and join the Knights Watch. Grey Worm accepts Jons punishment. He doesn't bend the knee leaves with his troops and Dothraki on ships to go free Slave cities. They show Tyrion leading the council. Jon says goodbye to Sansa and Arya. Arya tells them she isn't going back home. She's going to explore whatever is west of Westeros because that's where no one has been.
The final scene is a Closing montage. You see Arya on a ship, Sansa ruling Winterfell and Jon doesnt stay at the wall he reunites with Tormund and Ghost.
*Council Members: Samwell Tarly the Grand Maester, Davos Seaworth Master of ships, Bronn Master of Coin and High Garden, Brienne (not sure) Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, Yara Greyjoy Lord of Iron Islands, Robin Arryn Lord of Kingdom of the Mountain and the Vale, Gendry Baratheon Lord of Storm's End, Yohn Royce Lord of Runestone, Hound doesn't get mentioned., Podrick is wheeling around Bran and he protects him.
Ellaria Sand doesn't get mentioned (i asked because she's alive). Sam mentions that they seen Drogon in some location but aren't sure. Bran just says, "ill look for him" They don't have a Master of Laws and Whisperers. Tyrion is looking for the right people to fill those spots. They don't clarify what Bran did when he was in warg during The Long Night. Did i forget to mention the most important detail about this entire episode? our good boy gets a pat from Jon.
This is ... so bad. Like, even worse than it initially sounded.
If this is true, Jon’s identity doesn’t matter even one tiny bit. He’s the true heir to the throne and it doesn’t even factor into the plot. Not one single thing about his story line this season would be changed by him just being the beloved King in the North who the people preferred instead. So glad fans spent 20 years waiting and the show devoted multiple episodes for the reveal of this utterly meaningless secret!
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This essay is excellent and brilliantly lays out the feminist conversation around the show’s female characters and the misogynistic undertones in both the show and the books. Highly recommended reading: https://dangerouscharacters.substack.com/p/who-wins-who-dies-game-of-thrones
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1 hour ago, kittykat said:
She also promised Yara in 6.9 that the Iron Islands would rule as an independent kingdom on the grounds that they discontinued the reaving and raping. Dany will probably renege and make Yara bend the knee but I don't expect the other stuff to come up.
Also on the grounds that the Iron Islands would help Dany take Westeros, which they super didn't. They got her across the sea, but from there they got immediately taken out by Euron, and when Yara was recovered she went back to the Islands instead of reporting to Dany and getting back in the fight. Dany would be within her rights to renege, I'd think. But I'm not hopeful we'll see Yara again at all.
1 hour ago, MadameKillerB said:This is my thought too: IF magic is obliterated, what is the point of the wall? Are direwolves, dragons, and the Others considered magic? If so, and if magic is gone, why would there be a wall?
ETA: in the past few days (here and YouTube), I keep seeing a slightly different "leaked" ending. The one about Sansa being on the throne, Bran rebuilding the Wall, and Jon seeing a spiral in the North. It's weird that up until a few days ago, there were accepted leaked endings and now suddenly, we have a new one?
Sansa on the throne makes zero sense, but hey, nothing does anymore so I can believe it.
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1 hour ago, Kanner said:
I was so pondering this on my way to work today. How is the overthrow a Dany going to realistically happen? Grey Worm should be telling Dany that Jon did not follow her lead in continuing to attack the city and she will find Jaime gone. So Jon and Tyrion should be roasted pretty quickly. But with the way things have happened and the cut away from important scenes, I would not be surprised if it doesn't even come up.
14 minutes ago, absnow54 said:This. Jon and Tyrion should be toast. Jon especially, because he's a huge threat to her reign, and he's now given her an excuse to execute him. I just don't see how they logically dig themselves out of the massive crater they've created in one episode. Dany has a bigger army and a dragon. Sure, Jon stabbing Dany is a logical step at this point, but once she's dead, her massive army and dragon don't just disappear, unless we find out that she was truly the fire version of the Night King, and all of her soldiers drop dead alongside her.
All of this is spot on. The way they've set it up, Dany has snapped and decided to rule through fear. That means all her enemies, anyone who has ever disagreed with her, should be dragon roasted immediately after the battle. But we know that's not what happens - she has a scene with Jon where they chat, she locks Tyrion up even though she just tried that with his brother who was able to escape. She gives them the chance to keep plotting against her and ultimately kill her, against all logic and reason. They can't even write this horrible turn in her character properly.
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5 minutes ago, AuntieMame said:
Why would anyone get the warm fuzzies for Cersei?
One thing I overlooked in my initial reactions was that Tyrion wasn't just trying to save the city and help Jaime with his actions in this last ep - he was actively trying to help Cersei escape! That makes him a traitor to the common good any way you slice it, regardless of your position on Dany. And after three seasons of being wrong about everything and perpetrating this ultimate betrayal of the people, the consequence will be ... he gets to rule the kingdom. LMAO.
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4 hours ago, AuntieMame said:
I'm not arguing that Dany's decision to burn King's Landing and slaughter innocents is right or moral. Nor am I arguing that women aren't subject to the siren calls of power and corruption. I'm arguing that the portrayal of how Dany got there is shallow at best and the motivations the writers have shown us are sexist and inconsistent with the portrayal of Dany's character thus far. Stannis for example was consistent in his loyalty to abstract morals and his entitlement to power based on those rules. When Stannis crossed the line we at least understood how and why based on the entire development of the character and consistent elements of emotion and personality. This isn't the case with Dany.
Thank you for for stating this so eloquently.
4 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:One thing among many (many) that pisses me off is that the conclusion of Dany being killed is too easy for GRRM. I always thought the conclusion would be Dany getting the throne, but as the price she paid, having everything be in utter chaos, and having to deal with Dothraki roaming the country raping and pillaging and forming alliances with the hill tribes, etc. Dany would get the throne, but ruling would suck. That seems like a George RR Martin ending.
Frankly, I think the destruction of King's Landing will happen differently in the books. There will be a second Dance With Dragons between Dany and fAegon, and Dany's single-minded pursuit of destroying Aegon and his forces will lead her to total the city and kill many innocent inhabitants. Still reprehensible, still makes you question her ability to rule, but with enough plausible deniability that you can still sort of see her as a decent character and not a full on psychopath.
Both of these ideas of yours are far more interesting than what the show did.
4 hours ago, Constantinople said:Has the show ever explained why Rhaegar and Lyanna ran off, other than for shits and giggles?
I'm not sure that it has, though I'm not sure.
If there's no further explanation in the finale, that seems kind of weak.
This is at the top of my list of disappointments with this series. The biggest mystery in the books, the key to unlocking the central prophecies, the reveal that the whole damn thing hinges on - and they totally squandered it. We have no sense of why they did what they did, or who Lyanna, in particular, was. Why did she run away with Rhaegar? Did she care about the chaos and destruction she was causing? Was she oblivious? Did she try to do anything to fix it before her death? We'll never know.
2 hours ago, Jextella said:If this was GRRM's intent, it seems Dany's increasing aggression could be interpreted as a genetic flaw and has zero to do with gender.
That's not how this works. His story about a woman ruler doesn't exist in a vacuum - it's part of a whole literary tradition of women characters and the misogynist tropes used to define them - and you can't just remove it from that larger context. His choice to depict a powerful woman in this way plays into those toxic tropes, and it was a choice.
Let's assume his ending is the same as the show's, with Dany massacring innocents for no reason after the city is already hers. In that scenario, he has two core protagonists, the ice and fire of this story - one male, one female. His decision was to make the man noble, honorable, morally upright and deserving of power because he doesn't want it, and the woman unstable, erratic, ambitious to a fault and ultimately paranoid and hysterical to the point of madness. That depiction follows a long misogynistic tradition that he has chosen to play into.
Personally, my hope is that GRRM's version of this plot doesn't play out in quite this way, that Dany's actions are better motivated and that her characterization is far more nuanced. I want to believe he's a smarter writer than the show ending makes him seem.
29 minutes ago, SNeaker said:Fair, I forgot about Yara still being alive.
Maybe because the show did. More important to have her Uncle Douchebag chewing up scenery.
Yara getting no real ending is a serious bummer. If they had done the King's Landing battle right, she would have been part of it and gotten some closure on Euron.
10 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:All hail Brandon of the House Stark, first of his name, King of the Andals and the First Men, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms, and Protector of the Realm.
LOL your evil genius Bran theory is the only one that would make sense of him getting the throne.
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7 minutes ago, screamin said:
That doesn't sound to me like 'going crazy.' A decision made to indulge anger isn't necessarily 'crazy'. Otherwise there would be a lot more murderers going free on insanity pleas than there are.
6 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:They literally showed her stopping AND thinking when she heard the bells, making a decision and methodically burning everything. I understand there is a fine line between madness, saying fuck it all and being evil (see Cersei), but the way I saw it Dany made a conscious decision: she knew what she was doing.
This is basically just a semantic argument. A decision to burn innocents for no good reason is “crazy.” Jon’s going to kill her next week because she’s out of control. The show is going with the Mad Queen narrative, so that’s what I’m going to respond to.
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Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion
in Game Of Thrones
I would be more willing to believe this was intentional if they hadn’t dropped the ball on every aspect of Jon’s story this season. But they have. They just don’t seem interested in him.