[S02.E05: Kill Me]

9 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

Regardless of whether the specific intent was to kill Perry, you can still be held criminally liable for his death.  

Yes, but to what end? Why would the police be interested in trying to send a battered wife or her friend to prison for protecting themselves and accidentally killing a violent abuser in the process? What DA would want to try that case? What jury would convict?

[S02.E05: Kill Me]

This one was a little weird for me. Parts of it I liked (Chloe and Ed, Jane and Ziggy, confirmation of Bonnie's past abuse), parts of it I found baffling (Renata's whole suddenly subdued vibe, and wtf was that weird threesome implication at the end with the Affair Guy as if Ed would ever), much of it is starting to fall apart on the logic scale. Primarily:

1. The police pursuing this case to the point of tying it to a custody battle and trying to create a perjury trap. Y'all, I just don't buy it. Let's say Merrin thinks they pushed him? SO FREAKING WHAT. He was an abuser, caught in the act beating his wife, and he got shoved down some stairs when her friends tried to get him to stop. Call it justice and move on; why on earth would a PD be interested in going after a battered wife over this?
2. All of the ladies continuing to talk to Mary Louise. Celeste's lawyer absolutely should have forbid that. I do wish the ice cream throwing scene had stayed in, though. 
3. The entire custody battle makes no sense. I said this last week but this would just never happen with the thin case Mary Louise has, and Celeste's lawyer is out here telling her to take a shitty joint custody deal with this awful woman? She has no proof those boys are being neglected or mistreated in any way and the court does not just yank children away from their loving mother for no reason. It's clearly just a sloppy way back in to the Perry fallout.

On 7/8/2019 at 12:16 PM, Penman61 said:

Not that this show is known for psychological verisimilitude, but I'm calling total lazy writing bullshit on Mary Louise's "awesome takedown" of Renata.

I so did not buy this. Renata would not just sit there and take it while Mary Louise lobbed passive aggressive comments at her. It was like they dialed her down to half this episode and it was very jarring and abrupt after she's been in top form all season.

On 7/8/2019 at 1:45 PM, HollyG said:

If I was Celeste, I'd hire a PI to dig up any/all the skeletons in ML's closet. And you know there are some. Anyone with this sort of manipulative, passive aggressive personality is bound to have made more than a few enemies.

100% and it doesn't track for me that her lawyer isn't on this. She has a son who died in a super shady way! That is totally relevant to her claim to be a more secure guardian.

On 7/8/2019 at 3:40 PM, Cheezwiz said:

Yes, I think this is what she's up to - relentlessly poking and prodding, looking for weak spots. She's convinced her perfect precious son was the victim of a pre-meditated murder by a cabal of women, and she wants someone to crack. If she gets custody of her grandkids in the bargain, then that's icing on the cake for her.

This makes the most sense of Mary Louise's behavior, IMO. If she was really just there to get the boys she wouldn't be interacting with any of them; she'd be keeping her head down to look saintly.

23 hours ago, LuvMyShows said:

Even when she said she wanted to be married to him more than anything (or something like that), that seemed more about the being married (stable home life, good decent man who is a provider) rather than about the man himself.

I think Ed completely understands this and that's why his choice is so hard. He can stay with her, in the life they built together that he's been pretty happy with, but it will mean truly accepting that she doesn't really love him and what that does to his self-esteem, now with the added indignity of infidelity. Or he can have some respect for himself and demand a more deserving partner, but wreck his life (and Chloe's) in the process. It's a real shit sandwich of a situation and it doesn't feel like Maddie fully appreciates the spot she's put him in. 

21 hours ago, hoodooznoodooz said:

I found one scene interesting. Jane has just told Celeste that she wasn’t able to become physically intimate with Corey, without breaking down and crying. Celeste tells her that she suffered a trauma; it’s going to take time. Jane says that it is surprising that Celeste was still able to enjoy sex with Perry despite everything else that was going on in the marriage. This is such a loaded statement. But Celeste just admits that it was pretty effed up. 

I thought that comment from Jane was so offsides, honestly, and reflective of her inability to accept Celeste's truth that Perry never raped her. You can just feel Jane's skepticism, and I don't really blame her given Celeste's initial denial of the abuse, but you can't just shove stuff like that in your friend's face. Celeste not telling her to back off actually made me kind of sad; she just seems to think she deserves to be spoken to that way.

6 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

And because Maddie couldn't keep her gossipy mouth shut, Celeste and Jane's sons end up getting suspended from school.

That's a reach. First of all Maddie didn't gossip; she spoke about it in her own home with her friend who was directly involved and her daughter overheard her. If anyone gossiped, it was Chloe (though she clearly had good intentions to help Ziggy). Maddie is also not responsible for every single person who finds out now and what they do with the information.

6 hours ago, gooberfish said:

1) A dead guy. Five women above him. Why in the world wouldn’t cops or mothers assume or seriously consider that he was deliberately pushed? We keep talking about the fact that he was abusive but that was never reported to anyone. And, even if he was, would most people believe that there was a need to violently protect against serious harm  to one of them during that scene when he had no weapon and was outnumbered 5 to 1? And, I’ve read enough detective fiction to be able to grant the detective having spidey sense that the 5 were lying. And, if lying, why not be lying about a murder? It makes complete sense to me that this would be vigorously pursued by the law. The alternative-that he stood in front of the stairs and then slipped? Weird. It was believable that they lied, in my opinion. Bonnie pushed him down the stairs. A crime. 

There is a lot wrong with this description. Perry was beating the hell out of Celeste, in front of witnesses, right before he died. She had injuries and bruises all over her. It's not up for debate whether he was an abuser. And Bonnie pushing him would not be viewed as a crime - it was a completely reasonable defense to get him off her friend, who again, he was trying to murder right in front of her, and neither his tumble down the stairs nor his subsequent death was her intention. His death was an accident. Like I said earlier in this post, even if the detective believes one of them pushed Perry and they're all lying, why would they care? It's not like they could have known or planned for him to impale himself on that rebar just so, and there is no physical evidence to suggest anything but a fall, so the police would know it wasn't premeditated even if he was pushed. And I'm supposed to believe they are fired up about this enough to pursue a case they would never ever take to trial because no jury would convict - for a year? It doesn't track.

Oh, P.S. I'm Team Red Herring re: Jane's boyfriend.

[S02.E04: She Knows]

6 hours ago, sashayshante said:

Madeline belongs with and frankly deserves a man like Nate. 

Come on now, that's way too harsh - no one deserves a man like Nathan.

5 hours ago, iMonrey said:

To be fair, Celeste really is a mess. But I don't think handing the kids over to Mary Louise is the right answer, considering how Perry turned out. In fact if this goes to court and it came out how Perry was a wife beater and a rapist, it's doubtful the judge would give custody of any kids to his mother. In all probability they'd wind up in foster care or something.

Realistically, there's no way Celeste would lose her kids over what we've seen. A loving, attentive mom with a solid support network who's had a couple rough months following her husband's death? This is not a scenario in which a judge removes children from their mother. Add the fact that she's a rich white lady and there's literally no way that would happen. I think the drama is more about how she gets her shit together and gets Mary Louise to leave them the fuck alone.

57 minutes ago, LotusFlower said:

I don’t think that’s her dad.  I think it’s her mother’s second husband.  

She calls him Dad and there's been no hint at a different father. 

[S02.E04: She Knows]

1 hour ago, Melina22 said:

Why does everyone think he's suspicious? I thought he was just someone she liked. Were there any clues? 

People seem to find everyone on this show suspicious, thanks to the framing of season 1. I recall last year many suspected Ed of molesting Abigail and Tom the nice coffee guy of being evil. It's kind of silly - this show really isn't about gotcha twists, the storytelling is pretty straightforward because the mystery isn't really the point. 

I would be shocked if they had Jane's new boyfriend turn out to be a bad guy or have any kind of connection to Perry. Not only would it be wildly implausible, it would also be a cruelty to the character that I don't think this show would engage in.

[S02.E04: She Knows]

2 hours ago, Armchair Critic said:

I was cringing so hard when the  bartender strolled through shirtless in front of Mary Louise that I had to stop the show for a minute and then come back because I was dreading her reaction.

I could not believe he did that. He should have been hiding in the bedroom, anyone with half a brain would have known that. 

52 minutes ago, meira.hand said:

After this second Ambien episode, I am beginning to think Mary Louise may have switched Celeste's medicine into some other roofie. We did see her finding it in Celeste's drawer and it could have given her the idea.

It could be this, or it could just be that Celeste is being incredibly self-destructive to punish herself for Perry’s death. I would buy either. 

I find the idea that Ed should just get over it a few weeks after finding out his wife has been cheating and lying to him for years a little insane. He deserves time to decide whether he wants to try to save his marriage and Maddie is being selfish, again, by not giving it to him. Especially because she’s still lying to him. 

[S02.E04: She Knows]

The biggest tell that these ladies are way off their games is that none of them saw what Mary Louise was obviously up to. I can’t believe they kept inviting her into their homes - I fully expected Maddie to slam the door in her face and was astonished when she let her in. 

I really really want to know what the hell happened in Bonnie’s past. Her dad was ice cold to her in that hospital scene. Is her mom seeing flashbacks, or visions?

I absolutely love the way Renata thinks. Shame on me for marrying a man who would be so careless with my dreams. That really struck me and it seemed to hit Gordon where he lived, too. 

I feel for Ed because he clearly doesn’t want to leave his family or his home, but how can you stay in a relationship where you feel so diminished and disrespected? Maddie is still so caught up in her drama that she’s barely allowing him space to feel whatever he needs to feel about it. 

I don’t understand why Jane is allowing Mary Louise to interact with Ziggy at all. She has no right to call herself his family and she has looked Jane right in the face and said she doesn’t believe Perry raped her. Why would you let her anywhere near your kid, especially knowing what she’s doing to Celeste? This one is really straining credulity for me. 

[S02.E03: The End of the World]

41 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I'll just say that Mary Louise is the same person who was also sneakingly going through Celeste's medicine cabinet.  She isn't honest to a fault.  She's just a woman with an agenda. 

An agenda she is openly telling anyone who will listen about. And she was hardly sneaking - she had the lights on, snooping in Celeste’s bathroom while Celeste was at home. She just doesn’t give a fuck who knows what she’s up to.

[S02.E03: The End of the World]

13 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

I think people are missing the point about the ladies especially Renata;  yes she is a raging lunatic but her husband made a point to tell her that she has changed since that party where Perry died and both he and their daughter have noticed. All the ladies have in one way or another returned to their basest instincts and it’s interesting to watch.   Because they are all self destructing because of it.

Ding ding ding! Thank you so much for saying it. The ladies are more over the top and taking it to eleven in every scene this season - which is the point. They're traumatized and lying about it and none of them are coping well.

12 hours ago, tomsmom said:

I have to keep reminding myself that it’s been a year since Perry died. Move the eff on.

This sentiment is absolutely wild to me. They watched their friend get nearly beaten to death by her husband. They had to get involved in the fight themselves and got hurt. Bonnie killed him. They lied to protect her and are still worried they'll be caught. Celeste lost her husband. Jane discovered her rapist and then watched him die the same night. Their sons lost their father. But they're supposed to just be over all that in a matter of months? That's the kind of shit you never get over, especially if you can't or won't seek help.

This episode was a bit of a filler, but I still enjoyed it. I was delighted to see Maddie and Ed go to Celeste's therapist, and I thought it was an interesting little character note for the therapist that she first went to the assumption that Ed was at fault. It's refreshing to see him stand up for himself a little, and so telling that Maddie can't deal with it at all. She still expects him to accommodate her and her feelings even in this situation, and she still isn't telling him the whole truth. I got the feeling in that scene with Ed and Celeste that he knows that, too, and it's part of his hostility. He knows there's still another secret lurking and Maddie has completely boxed him out.

I understood why Celeste lashed out at him, too - she's Maddie's best friend and ultimately on her side no matter what. Plus you could tell from her comment that he would never leave Maddie that she doesn't think much of Ed in the first place. I must say I could not believe Mary Louise was still in Celeste's house after last week. Once a woman looks you in the face and says she doesn't believe you were abused, there's really no coming back from that. Celeste is just so passive, and I cannot believe she didn't warn Jane that she'd set Mary Louise loose on her.

I will give Mary Louise credit for one thing: she is honest to a fault. She's not being sneaky at all; she straight up told Jane she didn't believe Perry raped her and was looking for proof. What I found unbelievable is that Jane would talk to her after that. How could you even entertain letting a woman like that into your child's life? Or her weird new boyfriend, for that matter? Poor Ziggy has been through enough.

I still want to know what's up with Bonnie's mother and all these references to her secret former life. I hope they get back to that next week.

[S02.E02: Tell Tale Hearts]

Perhaps a thread should be created for people who want to speculate on the actresses’ plastic surgery and discuss their career trajectories. It’s really drowning out discussion of the actual episode here.  

Speaking of, I really liked this one and thought it laid the groundwork for several stories I’m really interested in and a few new mysteries. What happened in Bonnie’s past? Is her mom abusive? How did Perry’s brother die? Were Mary Louise or Perry involved? 

Watching Celeste regress back to defending Perry is so painful but also feels so real. He’s dead and that gives her the space to romanticize him and rewrite their history again. Whichever poster said upthread that she clearly wants to be punished is dead on - she is giving Mary Louise all the ammunition she needs to take the kids, blaming herself again and engaging in self-harming behaviors. 

I thought Jane handled things with Ziggy as well as she could once the choice to keep him in the dark was taken from her. They have a close bond and her lying to him was damaging it - at that point telling him was the right thing to do. And it’s better for all the boys if they can understand and define their relationship for themselves rather than hearing it interpreted from other kids. 

Which brings me to Madeline, who honestly is so careless that I kind of think she wanted to be caught, too. Poor, poor Ed. He didn’t deserve the indignity of hearing Abigail so casually fling the affair at her mother. I think it’s true that he knew something was up last year, but he didn’t know exactly what, or that others knew Madeline had betrayed him. It’s humiliating and emasculating to not only find out, but from his teenage stepdaughter who seems to view him with pity, and his reaction makes perfect sense. 

Other things I loved: Bonnie’s mom giving us the insight that Bonnie married Nathan because he’s dumb and would never figure her out (that rang so true for me), Jane and Celeste continuing to be so kind and honest with each other as they navigate this horrible situation, Chloe asking for her phone back, everything Renata said and did. YMMV but I am very happy this second season exists. 

[S02.E01: What Have They Done?]

8 hours ago, Blakeston said:

I also hope they reveal exactly what motivated the women to lie to the police. Did they think it was the best way for all of them to avoid jail? Was it to prevent Bonnie from being publicly labeled as a killer? Was it to protect Celeste's kids from knowing how evil their father was, and/or to protect Ziggy from realizing who his father was? Or was it all of the above?

They seem to be setting up the premise that it was all Maddie’s idea in the moment, instinctively trying to protect Bonnie, and they all backed her up and went along with it. I buy it - it’s very Maddie to go straight for an easy lie and they were all in shock. Not really thinking straight. 

I missed this show and I’m so glad it’s back. Personally I found Meryl mesmerizing. 

[S08.E06: The Iron Throne]

1 hour ago, rmontro said:

I have to admit I'm a little confused as to what happened at the end with Jon's character.  When he first woke up at Castle Black, it looked kind of like they had made him Lord Commander again.  But then he left with the wildlings.  Most people seem to think that he went to live with the wildlings, and that the whole Night Watch thing was just a ruse to fool Grey Worm.

If it was just a ruse to fool Grey Worm though, why didn't Jon just go back to Winterfell?  Or would he have rather been with the wildlings?  Maybe he wanted to leave Westeros so he wouldn't be bothered by his lineage.  Varys had been writing those letters to someone, it would likely be common knowledge by now.  

You seem to be one of the few posters who think he is still with the Night Watch.  And what you say makes sense, but I have no idea what the real answer is.  Maybe D&D have done an interview which explains it?

My lunch group was arguing about this today, it was super unclear. Apparently D&D said in their loathsome little Inside the Episode series that he’s now the Lord Commander again (of what, you might ask). I choose to believe he’s leaving the wall behind and going to live with the freefolk. 

[S08.E06: The Iron Throne]

1 hour ago, benteen said:

I felt like the War against the White Walkers ultimately meant nothing three weeks ago and I feel like Jon's Targaryen heritage meant nothing in the finale.  Particularly this week, it felt like D&D decided to pass the buck back to George and let him handle the stuff with Jon's heritage.  Because clearly it didn't mean much to those two and the battle against the dead didn't mean much either.

Kind of the ultimate fuck you, to steal his biggest reveal but then refuse to actually write it into the narrative in a meaningful way. 

Quote

I'm curious what Gendry thought about all this in the end.  He had good reason to be loyal to Dany as she save him and his companions form the Walkers last season and raised him to legitimate Lord of Storm's End.  The show hasn't acknowledged that the two of them are also related too.  But at the same time, Gendry grew up in King's Landing.  Specially, he grew up in Flea Bottom and I think he would have been horrified by Dany's actions.  Later on, when the Unsullied held Jon (and bizarrely didn't kill him on the spot), I imagine since he's Arya's brother that also would have won out.

That council/vote scene didn't work for me at all because I felt so many perspectives went unrepresented and no one called Tyrion or the Starks on their bullshit. I would have liked to see Yara making a stronger case for taking treason against Dany seriously and Gendry wrestling with his loyalty to the woman who raised him up versus his empathy for the smallfolk, along with the other houses claiming independence for their regions. There was so much opportunity there and they just squandered it. 

[S08.E06: The Iron Throne]

I tend to agree with this analysis of how a MAJOR cut from the books reverberated through the story and made a mess of multiple character arcs. For this reason, I do think GRRM could get to some version of this ending in a way that makes a lot more sense. 

[S08.E06: The Iron Throne]

24 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

Ooooh that's a good question.  Maesters of the Citadel can't marry, can they?  So does Sam's new role a Grand Maester mean that Gilly and little Sam and her unborn child were banished to Horn Hill to live with Sam's mother and sister as his secret not-wife?  If so, that's a bit sad.  But I guess, if you think about it, Ned was put in the same position in the very first episode -- called to Kings Landing to serve a king and forced to leave his wife and (most of) his children at home, far far away.  So I guess that's just what happened in Westeos when duty calls.

Sam never went through his Maester training anyway, so none of his ending makes sense. I would just handwave it as Sam being his own special kind of pretend Maester who does what he wants.

[Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion]

Never have I been so glad that I completely spoiled myself on a show’s ending. Thanks all for the info, the theorizing and the debates. 

[S08.E06: The Iron Throne]

6 hours ago, Minneapple said:

I fully believe this is GRRM's ending. Jon kills Dany and the Starks rise up. Bran as king, Sansa ruling the North, Arya exploring (just as Nymeria can't be contained, nor can Arya) and Jon living among the free folk, perhaps even becoming King Beyond the Wall (with Tormund as his consort of course).

D&D utterly mucked up everything in the leadup, but this ending is definitely A Time For Wolves.

I don’t believe Sansa will be a Queen in the books - more likely Warden of the North. That seemed like obvious fan service and didn’t really make any sense. Why on earth would ruling families consent to the Starks ruling two kingdoms in Westeros while they all kneel? 

5 hours ago, pfk505 said:

I sincerely hope we get better than this in the books. It's not so much what happened but how we got there. The show never used Bran properly and never showed the audience why he is important. The show absolutely massacred Daenerys and Jon's characters in order to serve the plot. Please George, take back your legacy.

Daenerys especially really hurts. That scene should have been so tragic and full of emotion but it was just so basic and empty. I'd go so far to say that in the books Daenerys is one of fantasy literature's greatest ever characters. And here she got a totally unearned Nazi heel turn for shock value and so we could end the show in 3 episodes.

Yes to all of this. I don’t think we ever will get better because I doubt he’s ever finishing those books.

4 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:

And also, fuck you, Tyrion.  However unforgivable Dany's actions, she is not worse than your evil sister and father.  Tywin and Cersei destroyed lives for pleasure and because they craved power.  They would never dream of trying to help people, as Dany did, and if they had even one dragon, they would probably would have blackened Westeros with it in the time it took Dany to save Jon beyond the Wall and fight in the Battle of Winterfell.  

I wanted to scream throughout that entire meta speech. Revisionist history through and through, both about Dany and the cruelty of his own family. Tywin sent the Moutain raiding through villages to rape and pillage the smallfolk and Cersei blew up the pope, but I guess we’re not supposed to think about that.  It’s absurd that they would consent to a Lannister running the kingdom after all that.

4 hours ago, Glade said:

Otherwise…I guess Dany did break the wheel after all?  

No, she really didn’t, though the show really wanted us to think that’s what happened! Yes, the iron throne was melted. But the ruling structure is exactly the same, and the way it shook out with the Starks seizing unilateral power I would expect another civil war to break out within a decade. Hell, Yara is probably going to start reaving again on her way home.

46 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

So without dirtying his own hands, Tyrion managed to manipulate Jon into killing Dany, manipulate the council into selecting a king of his choosing, and ending up as the effective king of Westeros. All while he’s a prisoner! And they say Tyrion’s not as smart as he used to be.

I would have liked it so much better if they had explicitly written it this way. As it is, we’re just supposed to believe that there are no consequences for Tyrion trying to help Cersei escape and committing treason against his own Queen, that everyone still thinks he’s a great guy and a competent Hand, and we’re to continue thinking of him as a hero. The mind boggles.

[S08.E06: The Iron Throne]

29 minutes ago, SeanC said:

I have no idea why Bran would become king of everywhere except the North.

So we could get the fan service ending for Sansa. I laughed at the scene of her declaring her independence - while everyone else had to swear fealty to her brother. No way in hell does Yara Greyjoy just sit there and take that.

25 minutes ago, galaxygirl76 said:

So Jon died, was resurrected, found out who his parents are, all to go back where he started. Alrighty then.

I will never get over this. What a waste.

[S08.E06: The Iron Throne]

I was spoiled for this, and somehow it was still worse than I expected. More than all the ridiculous plot points and problematic character turns, this finale will go down for the biggest sin of all: being excruciatingly boring.

[Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion]

2 hours ago, BitterApple said:

Hilarious review for the Bells:

I put it here because this tends to be the snarkier side of the forum:

https://youtu.be/5x1X74XfZwM

"Arya walks around, no doubt looking for a plot to be a part of." 😄 

[Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion]

27 minutes ago, yowsah1 said:

I am rapidly becoming convinced that GRRM never intended to make Jon Aegon Targaryeon at all.

Nah. He only let D&D adapt his books when they showed him they had picked up on this mystery/future reveal. It is the central question at the heart of the story and its theme. Jon, Jon and Dany, Rhaegar and Lyanna - they are the song of ice and fire. I will never believe that it wasn't supposed to matter.

[Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion]

11 hours ago, Solace247 said:

That’s fine if you think it makes sense—it’s there’s in bullet point form, but then, so was Jonerys baby. To me, bullet points aren’t television they’re PowerPoint presentations. 

Yes! The foreshadowing conversation around Dany has been driving me nuts, because guess what? They foreshadowed all kinds of stuff that ultimately didn't happen. To name just a handful things the show set up for the final season and then dropped:

• Dany would get pregnant
• Jon being Aegon Targaryen would be hugely consequential to the plot
• Arya would take out a big villain using a Face
• Bran would use his powers to guide the fight
• Tyrion would be in love with Dany/envious of Jon
• The Golden Company would be a fierce obstacle
• Cersei would attack/double cross the northern army while they fought the NK
• The Army of the Dead would be the ultimate existential threat to humanity 

And this is just the stuff they set up in season 7, let alone the years of loose ends from before that. This story is a big old mess.

5 hours ago, WindyNights said:

They knew from the beginning that Daenerys wasn't getting the throne. That wasn't their idea. It was GRRM's. 

Well, no - they knew from before season 5 began. At which point, they should have said either 1) oh shit we've been writing her as a feminist hero, we better start building to her losing it over the next few seasons , or 2) oh well we prefer her the way we've written her, so we're not going to use her book ending. Instead they kept writing her the same way and then tacked the book ending on anyway. Appalling writing choice.

3 hours ago, Azi said:

If only we all had listened to Jojen several seasons back. He told us it was all about Bran. Only true prophet etc etc. 

The funniest thing to me is that they were told GRRM's ending between seasons 4 and 5. So right after they were told that Bran would be King in the end, they wrote an entire season in which he doesn't even appear.

2 hours ago, dreamcatcher said:

Dany has awful advisors who have betrayed her but she is paranoid for no reason? Cersei has loyal advisors even though she is a despicable human being with no right to the throne whatsoever. If they had portrayed Dany’s camp as capable and loyal and her being paranoid for no reason, I could buy the whole turning mad storyline. She has every right to be paranoid in her situation though and according to the spoilers, she lets her guard down for Jon and that’s what gets her killed. While the other monster of the series at least died with her lover next to her.

Exactly this. If they wanted to truly lay the groundwork for her losing it, the choice to have Dany be consistently right and her advisors be consistently wrong was a baffling one.

44 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I also wonder if they were playing the whole "he's dead" thing, ala Beric.  Beric saying each death left him "less than" he had been before.  Who knows?

I thought for awhile that this is what they were going for with Jon, but it never came to anything. Add Jon's resurrection to the list of plot points that never got any kind of satisfying resolution or follow through or even appeared to matter to the story. 

I was out with a big group of friends last night who were discussing the show and predictions for the finale. Everyone in the group thought this season has been awful and expects the finale to suck. The main prediction was that Arya would kill Dany using a Face and that Jon would end up ruling, because "they have to use that, right!"

[Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion]

49 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

With Bran, he became unrelatable once he turned into the 3ER. Remember the way he callously blew off Meera after she spent years dragging him around? Did we ever see him mourn for Hodor? Or Rickon? I understand D&D envisioned the 3ER as the equivalent of a computer, but viewers don't root for things, they root for people. They missed the boat on that one.

Yeah this decision to characterize him this way only becomes more baffling if they knew he was going to end up King all along. Why not retain most of who he was so that people could still connect to the character? Instead they made him a meme. 

Returning to the earlier discussion about how the ending might be perceived, assuming the spoilers are accurate: this is a good piece with a couple scholars discussing why they found the turn Dany's story took so frustrating, and the opportunity lost to follow a more interesting narrative. This quote at the end in particular stood out to me:

Quote

“I’m sure they’re going to have some kind of grand, final fight between Daenerys and her allies, and unfortunately it’s going to be Daenerys and the last people of color now fighting against the cis-white dudes.”

Even the people paying close attention and analyzing the show expect Dany to go down in a final battle - they do not expect Jon to murder her. There's a reason this was described as the third big WTF moment and I think audience backlash will only grow stronger.

[Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion]

2 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Maybe.

Our unsullied guessed it though.

It's actually pretty predictable.

After all, what else can Jon possibly do?  Join the mass murderer and make more incest babies?  Sit next to her on a tiny throne?  Become her Queen's Guard and keep her sexually happy so she won't have Drogon incinerate him?

Anyone who spends time on these forums obsessing about the show is not a normal viewer. 🙂

I don’t think anyone is expecting a happy ending or even for Daenerys to survive. But it’s pretty shocking for the hero of the show to straight up murder her when her defenses are down. Seeing Jon do that will be hard for some to swallow, especially because they’ve set it up so poorly. 

[Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion]

33 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

Yowza, if HBO is already in damage control mode, I wonder if there's content that's going to be worse than the spoilers that have already leaked? 

I've never seen anything like this before, where a network's effectively instituted a gag order until the furor dies down.

I could see this just being for what we already know - Jon Snow is going to murder Daenerys. We’ve known for weeks that this was the likely end so we’ve grown used to the idea, but it will be genuinely shocking for a lot of viewers. 

[Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion]

50 minutes ago, Francie said:

D&D’s interest in Jon Snow began and ended with “Kit is short” jokes. 

It’s true and it’s honestly mind blowing. I’ve never seen creators treat their own protagonist so poorly.