[Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion]

7 minutes ago, screamin said:

I don't think she's supposed to be 'insane.' I expect she'll have an explanation that won't be stereotypical Hollywood "the voices told me to do it." It will be a hard-nosed, cold explanation that the city had to pay for its refusal to surrender to her, that Aegon the Conquerer had done the same to Harrenhal and made sure that every kingdom he took thereafter surrendered bloodlessly.

Yeah I’m not seeing the contradiction here. Of course she’s not going to say “yo, I went crazy.” She’s going to have some rationalization for it, but the entire frame that the show has given us is that she was emotionally wounded and distraught to the point where just winning wasn’t enough. That’s why it matters that she went ham on innocents after the bells of surrender were already rung - she decided in that moment that she wasn’t satisfied, and she was going to take out her anger and desire for revenge on the civilians of KL.

[Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion]

1 minute ago, Raachel2008 said:

You say she was hysterical and lost her mind, I say she knew exactly what she was doing. She said so: “Let it be fear”.

They literally showed her going crazy and deciding to burn everyone after the bells rang. You can tell yourself that’s not what happened if it makes you feel better, but it’s what the show depicted.

[Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion]

The thing I keep coming back to re: this ending for Dany is how entirely not subversive it is. A powerful woman becoming hysterical and losing her mind (especially over issues of motherhood and love) is a classic trope and about as conventional as it gets, especially when paired with the orphan boy with the destiny being the one to save the realm from her. It’s hard to fathom that this is really GRRM’s big subvert-the-genre ending. Or maybe it’s not, because I don’t expect many older white male writers have enough awareness to avoid this kind of misogyny in their storytelling. 

[Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion]

3 hours ago, ulkis said:

Yeah. I was going to wait until next week to talk about this, but on the show, so far, it seems like it was pointless. Dany could have felt just as threatened by him if he were just King in the North and they could have accomplished this plot anyway. I blame Martin partially though for killing off most of the characters that would have cared about Jon's parentage.

Nothing that’s happened to Jon on the show since his death - the resurrection, the parentage reveal, his attempts in battle - has mattered. He’s like a ghost wandering through his own story, disconnected from any real consequences or narrative momentum. I imagine this is because the show has decided to forego all the prophecies and give the big moments that are clearly meant to be Jon’s to other characters for shock value. So yeah I don’t think this one is on GRRM.

2 hours ago, AuntieMame said:

Having Bran do more than stare would be a really good start. Subsequent storytelling steps might include explaining the history and powers of the Three-Eyed Raven and how the knowledge and power of the 3ER might help or hinder the players in the game. As of now, Bran's entire arc has been pointless, especially if he ends as king. 

Can’t wait for the King Bran memes. The finale is going to suck but at least we’ll have fun. 

[S08.E05: The Bells]

1 hour ago, Kate47 said:

I definitely think, even though the writing has been terrible, the production, directing, and acting for this episode was top notch.

I honestly feel bad for the production teams who put so much work into episodes 3 and 5, only to have the writing undermine them so badly that it distracted the audience from appreciating their work. Hopefully they’ll win some Emmys as a comfort. 

[S08.E05: The Bells]

4 hours ago, shrewd.buddha said:

Game Of Thrones: George R.R. Martin Has Finished The Last Two Books, According To Actor

Nope. My friend works for the publisher. No progress, no real timeline in place.

[Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion]

4 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

But I cannot imagine how bad this would have gotten over 10 seasons. Look at all the complaining we're doing. Over 10 bloody seasons? It would have been a tragedy. It's not like the show SUDDENLY GOT BAD this season. 

The major reason it's so bad is that they tried to cram about 4 seasons worth of plot into 13 episodes, so no I don't think it would have been as bad as this. The real ideal would have been for D&D to hand off the show to writers who were still interested in it.

[S08.E05: The Bells]

1 hour ago, Helena Dax said:

I can't say I've read tons of fantasy books, but I can't remember any story of the sort.

What's hilarious about all the people trying to make the argument that this ending is a great subversion of fantasy tropes is that really it's just the opposite. All the empowered women falling to pieces and ending in emotional ruin while the Heroic Men ride in to save the day and end up in power is about as conventional as it gets.

[Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion]

37 minutes ago, QuinnM said:

There was discussion and industry gossip about the number of episodes total, the number of seasons etc.  Was there a reason this had to be the last season?

Benioff and Weiss wanted to be done and move on to other projects, so they chose to end the story in a limited number of episodes. HBO wanted 10 full seasons. Imagine how much better it would have been with show runners who were actually committed to seeing it through.

[S08.E05: The Bells]

Quote

"Our problem with this turn, aside from its rather dreary inevitability and how un-Game of Thrones that written-in-stone sort of plotting is, was how it was presented. Dany committed genocide after she got everything she wanted. The city had fallen, the people rang the bells, surrender was at hand. This was an absolutely terrible moment for the writers to have her snap and start killing people. Even worse, director Miguel Sapochnik made the choice to have her wordlessly go mad on camera, in a bit of painfully cliched facial acting complete with eye-twitches – and then never showed her again through the rest of the episode. Once Dany snapped, she stopped being a character and became a faceless force that all the other characters reacted to. She went from a person to an act of nature, leaving the audience with no choice but to watch her emotional downfall from afar, after having spent eight seasons by her side. What was Dany thinking or feeling as she murdered tens of thousands? Who knows? She’s CRAZY."

Good overview of the writing problems with this episode, while still giving props for the few things they did well. https://tomandlorenzo.com/2019/05/game-of-thrones-burns-it-all-down-after-eight-seasons/

[Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion]

8 minutes ago, Heathrowe said:

How did she save them all from the NK? Arya jumped out of a tree and killed him. They were losing before that. My big problem is I don't even know what the point was of bringing Dany and the dragons into that fight. Agree though-she should have moved on KL earlier and bypassed the North.

In the end, it seems like the only point was to delay her taking out Cersei until episode 5. Compelling stuff!

[S08.E05: The Bells]

15 minutes ago, Affogato said:

note that Cersei has lost, if anything, more than Dany and dealt with it longer and yet no one uses it as an excuse for her evil ways.

This is not true. Cersei lived the vast majority of her life in extreme privilege with massive power over others that she used as cruelly as possible. She lost her children due to her own actions. Dany grew up in exile, impoverished, abused, sold like chattel, raped, always on the lookout for people trying to kill her. People seem to forget that because she's had her own hard won power for the last few seasons, but she had to claw her way there. And now her story is ending with the men she put her faith and trust in gaslighting and betraying her. 

12 minutes ago, ElizaD said:

I always preferred Theon's redemption arc to Jaime's because he felt actual remorse for the suffering he had caused and wanted to atone by helping those he had hurt, but wow, I didn't expect Jaime to relapse to this degree. Now that we're almost finished, I feel pretty safe in saying that Theon was the only character who was around from season 1 to season 8 and never disappointed me: even when he was being a screwup, Alfie played him excellently and his arc was heading in a logical direction towards a satisfying conclusion. So that's something that I can remember even more positively when I contrast it with the dumpster fires the remaining characters are turning into.

I have to say, I never expected Theon Greyjoy to have the only coherent character arc in the whole damn story. Good job subverting my expectations on that one, show!

[Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion]

7 hours ago, Leila6 said:

More detail from the accurate spoilers:

On Jon killing Dany, he tone of it is very tragic. It's kind of like she's completely consumed by madness and he's saying how much he loves her and he's loyal to her, then he stabs her when he gets close enough. It's obviously traumatizing for him to do because he does love her. 

So they're going for the Buffy/Angel tragedy - sacrificing his love to save the world. Except they've written the romance so poorly that it's not going to land. I don't feel sad about this, I just feel angry.

6 hours ago, Umbelina said:

By the way, the episode title was "THE BELLS" so I guess us spoiled folk know why they withheld it.

Remember a week ago when we all laughed ourselves silly at the idea that she went mad at the sound of bells? Turns out it's a totally fair read on the scene. 

6 hours ago, Couver said:

That's my issue with it. Also the Targaryen legacy is always used against Dany. But people will be fine with a Lannister, son of Tywin and brother of the most recently Queen on the council.

If you want to really do something different then there shouldn't be any one from a major house on this council. And certainly not someone who is a corrupt person.

THIS. The council of fan favorite bros is straight out of bad fanfiction. 

6 hours ago, Lemuria said:

Besides, the ending to the series is totally not bittersweet. It’s hugely tragic. 

I guess the "sweet" part is that all the remaining Starks survive in some capacity. Pretty weak.

50 minutes ago, anamika said:

But the show's narrative seems to not allow Jon and Arya (last season) to get rightfully pissed off at all the shit Sansa does. And the showrunners trying to justify Sansa's nonsense. Last episode David Nutter was saying that Sansa did not really tell Tyrion about Jon's parentage and that she just implied it and Tyrion put 2 and 2 together, when in this episode Tyrion clearly states that Sansa told him.

Jon's complete non reaction to learning Sansa had immediately betrayed his trust was so frustrating. And you're right, it does feel like the show artificially constrains characters from reacting reasonably to Sansa's manipulations. 

41 minutes ago, anamika said:

I would have enjoyed this ending more if he did not destroy Dany's entire campaign that she build up painstakingly over 6 seasons with his moronic advice to her over two seasons and his nonsensical trust in Cersei.

This is what's driving me nuts about Tyrion's arc and why his ending ultimately does not sit right with me. He's been wrong about everything and proven to be a terrible strategist for the last three seasons. Where are the consequences for that? 

[Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion]

5 minutes ago, rmontro said:

Okay, I wanted to say this in a different thread, but it involves spoilers so I will say it here. 

If the message here is that power corrupts, the ending with Bran elected king doesn't work.  Because unless they go with a council ruling Westeros, there will still be throne around to corrupt those who pursue it.  Now you can argue that Bran is a magical, near immortal creature who can fend off all threats to his power, and that Bran cannot be corrupted.  But even if that is so, how is that of any practical use to us in this non-magical world?

Is it possible there is a council to lead Westeros, but Bran is made king of the north?

I think they’ll use Bran not being fully human, not “wanting” as the justification and just leave it at that. After the last few weeks I wouldn’t expect them to lay out any kind of coherent argument for this. 

[Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion]

These are the spoilers that have fully borne out. A few of the items are grouped together in slightly misleading ways, but all of it happened. And they were originally posted MONTHS ago. Seems clear this will be the ending.

[S08.E05: The Bells]

7 minutes ago, jeansheridan said:

I get those too but I think the ambivalence is he still wants her but can't bring himself to ignore their blood tie. I mean, I know they don't generate much sexual chemistry. You can't write that unfortunately. I mean I felt he had more chemistry with Tormund. Kit is great at bro chemistry.

If they’d had him say a few comforting words to her, or attempt to take care of her even as just a friend in this ep, they could have gotten it across. But he just seems wary of her, not worried about her.

1 minute ago, rmontro said:

I don't doubt this was the gist of what GRRM had planned, but he would have hopefully had the skill to get to that ending without it all feeling like a giant bait and switch.  This episode just felt like over the top nonsense, and next episode Dany looks like she's presiding over the Gestapo and the Brownshirts.  It's like Game of Thrones took a left turn into a different series.  

I'd like to think Martin has the skill as an author to avoid these pitfalls.

I think if GRRM ever finished writing the books, this ending would be different not only in the lead up and character arcs but also in the execution of the key moments. No way in GRRM’s version does Dany just decide to kill women and children without us thoroughly understanding her motivations.

[S08.E05: The Bells]

36 minutes ago, SeanC said:

I've often thought that Clarke was a decent actress but rarely exceptional, but she's absolutely been killing it this season, even as the writing for her character has collapsed.

Seems like she really upped her game to try to elevate the material where she could.

10 minutes ago, jeansheridan said:

I wish they had given him some more dialogue there. Explain to her that he just couldn't overcome his culture. And that they are family and he loves her as such. I mean he's her family! That could have been something. Something for her to hold on to. Tyrion and Jaime have proven family love matters a lot. And so have the Starks. They could be the Targaryens, together. Sexual feelings can fade with time and space. 

Oh well. They went in another direction.

It doesn’t seem like Jon actually does love her, as family or otherwise. If they mean for us to think he does, it’s another storytelling failure. All I get from him is ambivalence and exhaustion.

[S08.E05: The Bells]

3 minutes ago, voiceover said:

I know I might be the only member of this club, but I took no joy in CleganeBowl.  Just another example of a blown character arc.

You’re not alone. Disappointingly executed like most things this season.

The only nice thing I have to say about this episode is for Emilia Clarke. She did her damndest to sell the shit material she was handed. I hope she wins an Emmy for the pain. 

[S08.E05: The Bells]

Holy shit, that was so much worse than I even imagined. They literally offered no motivation or explanation for Dany to lose her shit and try to kill everyone. Once the battle starts she’s just a mostly unseen monster flying around causing mayhem. The core heroine of the show, completely character assassinated by these writers. 

[Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion]

Welp. The spoilers are all true. Can’t wait to tune in next week to see Jon kill the crazy bitch, install a council of shitty men and put an end to all these emotional women trying to rule.

[Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion]

1 minute ago, BitterApple said:

I always figured Jon would sacrifice himself to save a pregnant Dany and she'd end up on the Throne. That would be in alignment with everything we've been building up to, but not a totally picture-perfect ending. 

I thought Jon dying so Dany/their baby could live was a lock - it’s definitely what season 7 seemed to set up with the love story + quickening womb anvils + frequent reminders of his resurrection. But season 8 has in many ways felt very discordant with where season 7 left off, like they didn’t really have the whole trajectory figured out back then. 

[Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion]

I can’t believe nothing has leaked. Really wanted to go into this one prepared for the full scope of awfulness.

[Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion]

10 hours ago, Lemuria said:

And I still have no clue why some people talk about Jon re-starting the Night Watch. To do what, exactly?   Sit on a 700 foot high block of ice and twiddle his thumbs? There’s nothing we need a Night Watch for anymore. The NK, WW and all the wights are gone. The Free Folk aren’t threats (and even if some idiot Northerners continue to think that, Jon doesn’t and certainly wouldn’t do anything to prevent them from moving freely about Westeros). 

One of the filmed endings supposedly involves Jon finding the white walker symbol again as he wanders the north, the implication being that they’re not really gone. 

7 hours ago, BadAssRobinArryn said:

If GRR Martin changes his long planned ending, just because the Dany stans don't like it, I will lose a lot of respect that I have for him as a writer. But that won't happen anyway, because he will never write book 7.

Please don’t frame people’s disappointment and anger at this unearned, misogynist ending for Dany as irrational stanning. She has never been my favorite, but I’m absolutely incensed at the way these writers are treating her and it’s putting me firmly on her side. 

52 minutes ago, Leila6 said:

In theory, that’s correct and it might work better in the books. But in the show, Bran has been weirdly withholding of information and just seems to spend his days flying around in ravens for little apparent reason.

I also hate the answer of a god-king, despite its antecedents in fantasy and sci-fi, because it’s a cop out for humanity. I didn’t peg GRRM as endorsing that kind of idea.

The show has dropped the ball on Bran’s story in numerous ways. They skimmed over his 3ER training and they’ve never been comfortable with his magic or figured out what it means. They’ve turned him into a virtually emotionless blank slate. If he’s really been the endgame ruler all along and they knew that for years, their failings in developing his character become an even bigger betrayal.

20 minutes ago, screamin said:

Honestly, if Bronn really ends up getting to rule Highgarden and its huge population of "peasants who do what they're told" (as he remarked approvingly) because of a promise he extorted with a death threat, but was too cowardly to back up by fighting for the side that was to keep that promise, I will be SO pissed. The Queen of Thorns' people deserve better than that craven asshole.

The Bronn stuff is one of the things that convinces me D&D really just don’t take this seriously. They think people will be happy with a bro council ruling Westeros, a couple fan favorites getting nice endings they absolutely did not earn, and Sansa ruling the north as their one nod to “feminism.”

[Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion]

Here's a theory that pulls some of the leak threads together and offers a reason for Jaime to kill Euron that actually makes sense: "Euron will find out that Jaime is the father of the child, he will be the one who stabs Cersei. Jaime tries to save Cersei and is mortally wounded in the process but kills Euron. Jaime dies in Cersei's arms and they both die together."

[Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion]

1 minute ago, galaxygirl76 said:

Jealous because of Euron having sex with his sister? With these writers it could be anything. 

You're probably right and GOOD GOD. He killed Rhaegal! That is Dany's revenge to take, or maybe Yara's. But apparently Dany will be too busy going randomly insane and killing innocents for no reason.