screamin

But remember, Cersei isn't telling Tyrion everything. She's withholding the info that Ned himself had nobly told her to her face that he was planning to move against her, and given her time to flee - thus ALSO giving her time to make sure the king died and that Ned was stymied in his attempt to thwart her. She withholds this information because it's too intertwined with her own guilt over things she wants to conceal from even her family - that she deliberately engineered Bob's demise and that she did it to conceal at all costs what she had confessed to Ned - her incest. So it's convenient for her to blame Sansa for giving her the cue at the right time. But you can't tell me that after hearing Ned threaten her, she WASN'T going to have every spy keeping an eye on him to avert any sudden move - like, say, putting her son's lawfully promised bride and her sister on a ship. IMO, she would never have let it come off, regardless of whether Sansa told her or not, and it's only Arya's skill and her choice of an unexpected escape route that kept her from being captured with Sansa.

And therefore his life is over? And having learned to be a better man than he was, he's going to - just ignore suffering outside his island that his martial skill can help alleviate, and stick selfishly to his simple life? That makes no sense. I...think that's what I was saying? While he wouldn't have forgotten he owes his brother one (because he does), it would be the impulse to save something (whether it's Sansa, or KL, or the world) that would motivate him to confront his brother.

For all we know, they may have filmed the flash-forwards first, so we don't know if that last costume fitting were for flash-forwards for Sophie or not.

Come to think of it, it occurs to me that in the books the Mad Mouse might face a lot of serious obstacles in making plans to abduct Sansa alive. After all, the Vale is under LF's rule, she's ostensibly his daughter, and transporting a live unwilling girl out of the territory without being caught would be logistically very difficult, if not impossible. Transporting her head alone (say, pickled in a small keg for preservation) might seem to him a great deal easier while managing his escape. After all, Cersei was willing to accept Tyrion's head in return for a reward, why not Sansa's? But since it seems to me that GRRM is writing Sansa's complex but ultimately triumphant education in seizing political from LF, her death in that fashion would turn her whole plot into a ridiculous shaggy-dog story.

Begging your pardon, but the undeniable fact that he IS trying to regain what he lost does not logically exclude the fact that he could ALSO be trying to be useful. By taking the role of commander of the pacifying forces, he actually DID make himself useful as a general by using his strategic savvy to get Riverrun to stand down without a bloodbath. And even if a general usually commands from the rear, he must be at least somewhat ready to defend himself in case an enemy advance breaks through. While I'm sure he's under no illusions that he can regain even a quarter of the mastery he had before he lost his hand, I don't think it's so VERY farfetched that he can get good enough to be of some service in the battles to come. I mean, even missing a hand he's still better off than Tyrion, and even Tyrion rendered some useful military service by riding at the head of an attack in battle - and he had a lot less to work with physically than Jaime does, even now - and Jaime has more potential to improve with his left arm than Tyrion with his whole body. Sorry, I just can't see how the Hound willfully and permanently rejecting the crying needs of the world to enjoy the simple life is PROGRESS for the character. And if you believe that his story is over, how do YOU explain the fact that the Elder is feeding the Hound's expensive war-horse and keeping it idle instead of gelding it and breaking it to work or selling it? (BTW, that should have been picked up by the people searching for the Hound; one of them should have offered to buy Stranger just to see what the Elder would say). And keeping and feeding an expensive and ornery stallion trained only for war intact and idle (in a time of famine, yet) doesn't look to me like an indication that his owner has decided to settle down and never go into battle again. To me, that's like seeing someone's motorcycle with the motor running outside his house and saying you're certain he's going to walk on foot forever after. No, Doran got a massive skull, period, full stop. There are many conditions that could cause an enlarged skull - hydrocephalus, acromegaly - and Qyburn has the curiosity and learning to know of them and the lack of scruples to open a tomb or arrest some unfortunate poor denizen of King's Landing with the right specifications to donate a plausible skull. If you think about it, why did Qyburn go to the trouble of taking off all the flesh of the skull, instead of just dipping it in tar as seems to be the general custom? Maybe it was because if the flesh were preserved someone might recognize that the face wasn't Gregor's. As for Bran's vision of a giant in armor made of stone (the Mountain, I agree) whose helmet when opened showed there was "nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood" - yes, it could literally mean that FrankenGregor has no head. But we don't take the 'armor made of stone' to literally mean he's dressed in granite, so maybe the 'nothing but darkness and thick black blood' thing is also a metaphor. Thick black blood is clotted, dead, poisoned in Gregor's case, perhaps hinting at his undead state. The darkness could mean the evil that animates him, the fact that there is nothing to be seen in the helmet but those two things may mean that the helmet is intended to conceal his true identity - under the false name Robert Strong. Besides, to me it just makes more sense that Qyburn was talented enough in dark arts to reanimate a corpse and spell its obedience - but to assume he can make an obedient warrior that can fight and take orders without ears to hear the orders, eyes to see its opponent, and a brain to store its fighting skills? (As Bronn pointed out, even a giant needs SOME fighting skills to prevail). It seems a bit much to expect of him. Also, a mere mindless golem seems to me a much less compelling idea than to imagine Undead Gregor imprisoned under an obedience geas, but secretly resenting his inability to go off and do his usual sadistic hobbies in his free time, maybe looking forward to the advent of the True King of the Undead, who will free him to take revenge on those who made him such a tool. Oh, and wait, here's more of Bran's vision: Sure looks to me like both the Hound and Jaime have significant parts to play in that vision, hmm? Maybe their story as warriors isn't as finished as you think.

A limp is definitely a significant negative in combat - but as I mentioned, an amputated hand is far more so to a swordsman, and Jaime didn't use it to as an excuse to retire from combat and settle into the cushy administrative post Cersei was offering. He did his level best to rebuild his skills with his diminished capacity, and to compensate with soldier tactical skills he'd previously held less important, taking the harder road in the service of what he thought was right (granting that Jamie's notions of what's right aren't the greatest.) Should we expect less from the Hound? The only way your notion that the Hound has 'found peace' on the Isle and will never leave it works is if you assume it is the kind of selfish peace that will indifferently ignore any outside call or need because it would disturb his pleasant tranquillity. Think what's going to happen to Westeros soon - the dead will rise, the living will rise to fight them AND whatever selfish leaders who will greedily and shortsightedly try to use the crisis to their advantage. The world will need men who are good at fighting, because if the NK wins there will be no need for gravediggers. And a limp wouldn't obliterate all his skills. If the Elder Brother really did make him a better man instead of merely a selfishly indifferent one, he WOULD answer that call. And if the call includes helping the girl he was taken with AND definitively kick his loathed brother's ass for good and all, so much the better. People can learn to be good people, but they can't obliterate their past selves completely. More, I think GRRM was definitely telling us exactly that in the Quiet Isle scene. Proof? He shows us Stranger, the Hound's war horse. The Elder remarks that the stallion broke a monk's leg with a kick when they tried to hitch him to a plow. He also mentions that he thinks the name 'Stranger' is blasphemous. If both the Elder and the Hound believe that the Hound's conversion to the simple monk's life is permanent, why haven't they gelded Stranger, renamed him Abel, and broken him to the plow instead of leaving him idly eating expensive oats? IMO, it's a sign that the Hound's current state is temporary. He will eventually ride off to battle again. As for UnGregor being a mindless golem without his head and therefore not really Gregor at all - I don't think we can say for sure that Dead Gregor was really beheaded (Doran only got an unrecognizable picked skull as proof) or that Book FrankenGregor has nothing of the personality or memory of Gregor (we've been shown nothing of his inner life in the books.) Lastly, why are you so sure the Mad Mouse's purpose is merely to reveal Sansa's identity? What profit is there for him in that? Whereas abducting Sansa and bringing her to Cersei (who has placed a hefty price on Sansa's head) is potentially VERY profitable.

"It's interesting, because in the books Brother Ray is sort of a blend of a couple of characters that actually Brienne encounters, and there's a hint that the Hound might be hiding out with one of these characters in the books. It hasn't been--George hasn't revealed what he's going to do with that yet. We took that kernel and fashioned this storyline." He might have meant that GRRM hasn't written it yet - hence not put into its final form. It doesn't necessarily mean that they have "no idea where GRRM is going to take the Hound," (my emphasis) as Windynights put it. In fact, saying that they took George's 'kernel' (his broad hint that the Hound was hiding with Elder Brother) and used it as a seed to grow their own resolution to the Hound's plot sort of shows the opposite...that they do have some idea where GRRM is going to take the Hound, and just added their own enlargement of his hint. IMO, nothing in that quote can be taken as a declaration that George hasn't told the showrunners the ultimate end of the Hound...by saying "George hasn't revealed what he's going to do with that yet", they could be saying GRRM hasn't yet revealed that to us by writing it. I don't think it rules out the possibility that GRRM has told them, "Yeah, the Hound's going to kill the Mountain, I just haven't worked out how, yet," and they took that and ran with it where they wanted.

In what words exactly? I wouldn't say it definitely isn't indicative. Even if GRRM had told them nothing of what he planned for the Hound, that doesn't preclude the possibility of the showrunners making a lucky correct guess based on the hints in the books. And I do think there are significant hints...the lame gravedigger with his face cowled to invisibility showing up just when Brienne's party was telling Elder Brother that one of their missions was to kill the Hound, and Elder Brother reassuring them the Hound was dead precisely in such a way that could be read that Sandor is still alive. IMO, if it's just a red herring and Frankenmountain following Cersei's world-endangering orders (possibly to the extent of guarding and aiding in the torment of the recaptured Sansa, whose kidnapping is also hinted at in the books) ends up perishing at the hands of someone who is NOT his brother, while his actual brother stays indifferently away - well, that would be lame and a waste of good irony. I mean, if Sandor has actually become a better man due to his near-death experience and the spiritual ministrations of the Elder Brother, is it the choice of a better man to stay away from a fight against evil when you could help in the fight? Times are coming when an experienced warrior would be a lot more use to the world than a gravedigger. And yes, he's lame, but Jaime didn't let the amputation of a hand stop him from keeping up his skills as best as he could.

Maybe Cersei's plan is to wait until Jon's taken the bulk of his forces up North to attack the Night King. If he lose against the NK, the world's down the crapper anyway, so it won't matter if Cersei attacks Winterfell after he's left for the final battle. But if he wins, then the world goes on as before, except Jon comes victoriously home to a smoking ruin with no food left for his army and his people at the beginning of winter, AND probably at least one of his closest relatives a hostage with Cersei, who is now in a much stronger position to dictate terms to Jon. Yeah, it's a gamble for Cersei, but every big move she's ever made was basically a gamble.

IIRC, in the books the injury didn't seem acute. A man with an acute injury doesn't help in gravedigging - it's heavy work, something an acutely injured man wouldn't be fit for. The man who's probably the Hound limps, but is fit enough to do heavy work (the Elder Brother mentions that the man's been busy with nonstop gravedigging because of all the war's corpses washing up on the shores). A fit man who limps, in that medieval-ish setting, has done all the healing from an old injury he's going to do and is going to keep that limp for good. And a man wearing the garb of a novice monk and doing such humble work nonstop is IMO a man who thinks he's found some peace in his position, and it would take a crisis to force him out of it. Sansa's disappearance didn't force him out of it - and no, he hasn't the least idea where Sansa is, but neither did Brienne, and she didn't let that stop her. Seems to me that one thing that WOULD force him out of it would be something that's obsessed him for far longer than he's ever been taken with Sansa - like finding out his loathed brother isn't dead after all. And I think that will be one point where the show and the books will come together - that the Hound's end will come in defeating his brother. The show's already hinted broadly at that with the Hound recognizing the Mountain.

Good point. But I also think there was a more specific reason he requested the 'Rat Cook' song - because he was feeding the Freys pies made of their own relatives' meat. He was also feeding the Boltons the same pies (and ate of them himself). Whether he counts himself not a guest of the Boltons because he did not eat their bread and salt (you'd think Roose would insist all his guests do so, both to properly play the exalted part of host of Winterfell and as insurance for the good behavior of his more honorable guests) or whether Manderly doesn't give a damn anymore about violating guest right when he's the guest of treacherous Bolton who killed his son by violating guest right (hence his requesting the song as dinner music for his enthusiastic devouring of those pies) I admit I don't know. As I think that in the books Sandor's attachment to Sansa runs a distant second to the attachment to the idea of killing his brother, and in the books he didn't let the fact that Sansa was alive and out there somewhere, perhaps in need of his help, to move him from his humble position of gravedigger-monk, I can't imagine it's going to be that different in the show. SanSan's not going to happen.

I hope it is Wylla - I've always wondered just what went on with Ned and her in the past (is there a scrap of truth in the 'fisherman's daughter' story?) I don't know...isn't 'guest right' supposed to be reciprocal, in that if you are a guest and have accepted your host's salt and bread, you also have an obligation not to treacherously backstab your host in some way as well as vice versa? IMO, Manderley violated that rule, knew he was violating it, and didn't give a flying fuck, as indicated by his request for the Rat King song.

Oh, I totally believe something awful's going to happen to Sansa...it happens every season, doesn't it? I doubt it encompasses her death, though that may be my wishful thinking talking since I like the character. But I'm pretty sure that it's not going to happen by Tyrion handing her over to Cersei to try and buy her goodwill - he could never credibly believe he could buy her gratitude enough to guarantee his own safety when it's clear that nothing he could ever do would change Cersei's basic loathing for him.

I'm expecting that the 'betrayal for love' will be Tyrion, knowing that Dany is pregnant and her descendance assured, will probably talk Jon into some suicidal attack on an enemy to save Dany and the world. Tyrion-like, he will glibly convince both Jon and himself that this action is necessary for the good of all, but also Tyrion-like, he will keep an eye on the possibility that getting Jon killed in heroic martyrdom will leave Tyrion the field clear to guide, comfort and eventually marry the widow. I fully expect him to be found out after the fact, so that Dany will know that the third betrayal has been fulfilled. IMO, that betrayal - calculated, strategic, malicious without being altogether evil - is more in character for Tyrion.

The spoiler about Tyrion betraying Dany, getting WF burned to the ground, handing over Sansa to Cersei and then being shocked that Cersei kills her smells of bullshit. What the hell else would he expect Cersei to do with her, once he's made Cersei's victory seem almost certain by assuring Jon's army and entire realm will starve even if he beats the Night King? And he does this because he 'wants to be on the winning side'? Makes no flippin' sense, AND betrays Jaime, who seems to have made up his mind to honorably fight the Night King.

We were shown in the show and in the books that Cersei took a positive pleasure in torturing Sansa psychologically while she had her under her thumb in KL, fully convinced she had Sansa's measure as a pliable, broken idiot who was exactly what she seemed. Sansa DID surprise her by her flight...and goddamnit, Sansa was a Lannister asset and had no business having a mind and will of her own! But I agree if she does take Sansa it will be likely because of her value as a hostage. Same strategy - but successful this time for the sacker of Winterfell, not a Pyrrhic victory like Theon's, who took WF and stupidly tried to hold it instead of burning it and leaving with his hostages. And the circumstances are different - it's winter, Ramsey's dead, the Night King's the worse threat now, and WF burning with the winter stores inside is a far worse outcome for the North than the last fall. Yes, the strategy is the same, but it will LOOK different, and that will likely be enough for the showrunners. I mean, the showrunners aren't really that careful about making things plausible or non-repetitive. (Remind me, just what was poor Roz's story of repeated degradation, torture, and final sadistic murder FOR, anyway?) This, for example: In the books, it's quite possible that Tarly could be bribed with the prospect of getting Highgarden for himself - there are still Tyrell heirs left alive in the books, and he'd have no prospect of getting it for himself otherwise. On the show, this made no flippin' sense. The Queen of Thorns was the last Tyrell left alive, and as her most powerful bannerman he could have taken possession of Highgarden on her death without betraying her in life. And having acted with dishonor against his liege lord, it makes even LESS sense that he would later stupidly stand on his honor and sacrifice his own life and his son's life to it when his honorable vow to his liege meant shit to him a few episodes earlier. But hey! Burning him with dragonfire looked great, cinematically! And so will burning Winterfell! Who cares about the plot weaknesses involved? I expect the showrunners won't, anyway. I agree that Brienne will probably end up fighting at Jon's side against the Night King in the North. That will likely seem to her like the best place for her to help protect the Stark girls (after all, if she stands idly by bodyguarding while Jon is defeated, she won't be able to do much to protect the girls by herself when the NK comes knocking at WF's doors...)

Because she said 'fuck loyalty' to Jaime when she saw the enormity of the threat the NK posed to the world, and said it was more important than Jaime's personal loyalty to Cersei and (by implication) her own personal loyalty to Sansa and Arya. IMO, I think that means the battle against the NK is where she'll be - after all, if THAT battle's lost, her protection of Sansa and Arya at Winterfell will be ultimately useless when they're eventually overrun by corpses. She'll want to be where her fighting skill will do the most good. Which is also why I think Jon will take most of his fighting men North to meet the King. If he waits for the NK at Winterfell, several really bad things will happen - first, whatever's left of the fleeing Night Watch will be caught up and incorporated into the Night King's army, which can march day and night while living men eventually collapse from exhaustion. Then the NK overwhelms and recruits every homestead between the Wall and WF, swelling his ranks further. Jon as King is sworn to defend those people...and if he doesn't, they join the ranks of his enemy. The longer he waits, the more powerful the NK grows. It makes sense to try to strike him down before he gets too many new recruits - but you MUST beat him quickly, because every one of your soldiers who dies immediately becomes a new enemy unless you beat the King. So it also makes some sense to go big, hoping to overwhelm the enemy with your numbers and assure a quick victory. So there's at least some justification to Jon taking most of his forces with him.

True. But Sansa is explicitly not a warrior. If Jon took most of his army North to the Wall to fight the NK, leaving only a skeleton crew of soldiers to defend Winterfell, there's only so much that Sansa could inspire them to do if they're taken by surprise and don't get the gates shut in time. Arya could fight - but SHE was explicitly taught to be a one-on-one assassin, not a military strategist. I can see Arya fighting her way successfully out of an ambush and not being taken with Sansa, but not being able to direct a brigade of soldiers successfully against a numerically superior force. Brienne is at the Wall. Who's left? I mean, these are the guys who handwaved the fall of Highgarden as, "Yeah, the richest region in the kingdom fell to the decimated Lannister army immediately. Just go with it."

I'd guess she might send the Golden Company on a flying raid on WF to get Sansa as a hostage bargaining chip. They could approach from the sea most of the way and march quickly inland while Jon is elsewhere fighting the NK, the way Theon did way back when - and then take hostages, burn WF and its food reserves, and flee to their ships the way Theon SHOULD have done way back then. Voila - in one stroke Cersei has doomed Jon's kingdom and army to starvation AND has a hostage to hold over his head to force more favorable terms.

Definitely it will be the Hound that will do for the Mountain. It's part of the Hound's most fundamental character that he's got a debt to pay to his brother. Which implies that both he and Jaime will survive battles and return to KL...call it cliched but I think Jaime is destined to do for Cersei the same way. They came into the world together, they'll leave it together...

I really don't think Sansa and the Hound are going to end up an item, either in books or on show. Yes, in the books she's hung some erotic fantasies on the twisted peg of her memories of him lying on top of her with his knife to her throat, because even though he was creepy and psycho, he was really the only one who offered her some genuine lifesaving help and support at the most difficult time of her life, without trying to manipulate her for his own gain. Yes, he was scary and dangerous, but everyone around her in KL was scary and dangerous. She felt an attraction, but I don't think this amounts to love on her part, or on his. In the books, the last time we see him he's a gravedigger for a septon, who seemed content to let his part of the story end there, uncaring of Sansa being alive out there somewhere, maybe needing his help. I'd guess that in the book AND on the show the endgame for the Hound will be the long delayed face-off with his brother. Currently in the books, the gravedigger thinks his brother is dead. When he finds out that's not true, he may be galvanized into his last battle, which will probably end him as well. I don't see anything in the show that indicates the Hound's ending there would be any different.

Even if Maisie DID predict the ending, I can't believe the showrunners would allow her to say so and give away the fact that, yes, the ending WILL be predictable for some people...

Not sure that Littlefinger is aiming for Harry the Heir to take the North for Sansa in the winter. Everything he has planned to happen before that - like Tyrion's undeniable death so that Sansa can properly be married and reveal herself as Sansa Stark without a hitch - will likely take time to accomplish, and LF said his original plans were intended to take place over a course of several years. Littlefinger likely expects Harry to be married to Sansa, Lord of the Vale and his willing tool by springtime, not sooner.

Eh, there's degrees of guilt here. Shireen was a child, beloved by Davos, and as a child would be considered by default the more innocent victim even if she hadn't been the sweetest human being we ever saw on the show. Renly was an adult who let himself be flattered by his lover into starting a war (which would have killed thousands) to gain a throne he had a lesser claim to than his brother but felt he was more entitled to just because he was more likable and popular. As for 'putting Shireen's death entirely on' Mel, who else was he going to put it on? Stannis and his wife were dead. And I have no doubt in my mind that if Davos were present when Stannis made his decision, he would have renounced Stannis for good, and either rescued Shireen if that were possible, or confronted Stannis openly to defend her even at the cost of his life if it weren't - undoubtedly the reason why Stannis sent Davos away beforehand.

I'm guessing maybe the Night King, now that he's through the Wall, might just strategically send a few White Walkers and squads of wights southward to infiltrate the Vale instead of just marching all his men straight to WF in one mass - a mass that would be easily strafable from dragonback. After all, the obstacles to living people invading the Vale - like freezing cold, rapid starvation, smothering snowdrifts, fear of falling - do not much apply to wights. And once there, they can rapidly increase their numbers. Maybe GRRM will have those Tyrion-armed Vale mountain tribes begin in desperation to invade the Vale proper and attack there because they're being pursued by the NK's forces...