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I don't know if I'm out or not. I do know that I sat on my couch last night watching, kind of watching at least, and at one point I thought to myself, what am I doing? This isn't entertaining, it's not fun or enlightening or uplifting. It's just dull and stupid. This show needs new writers I think.

One of the things I've enjoyed about this show is seeing interaction between characters who probably would have never had much to do with each other in the world pre-ZA and I think Eugene and Abraham were a great example of that. (Same thing with Carol and Daryl, Aaron and Daryl, heck probably Daryl and pretty much anyone.) I'm going to miss the big lug Abraham and seeing him and Eugene yakking at each other. And I felt Eugene's grief, I thought the actor did a great job with basically a few seconds of screen time (I think there was one or two other quick shots of him as well) to project that.

I haven't gone through the entire thread yet but I've read enough to know that probably everything I thought while watching the episode has already been described by someone else. Torture porn, check. Negan talks way too much, check. Disappointing and strangely tedious episode, check. I muted my TV when we got to the chopping off Carl's arm part. I guess that was a take-off on Abraham - Isaac with Negan playing God. I couldn't really watch, didn't want to hear what was being said. And while my past line in the sand has been anything happening to Judith I've decided I have another point where I will go this far and no further and that's Carl losing any more body parts. So I guess I'm glad they didn't actually go there. The only scene that brought out any empathy in me at all was near the end when Maggie's talking and behind her we see Eugene still on his knees with his hands covering his face, just distraught.

Is there a thread strictly for comparing TWD and FTWD? I think we're not supposed to talk too much about TWD here but I wonder how many people there are who are watching FTWD and have never seen TWD. Maybe it would be easier to appreciate FTWD for what it is (if I knew what that was) if I weren't so familiar with the other show. I feel as if FTWD represents the characters and scripts that were rejected for use on the other show, like bad first drafts or something that have been pulled out and dusted off to be filmed here. Like maybe this Nick episode was originally written for Sophia after she got lost in the woods and they scratched it as too boring and unrealistic. I also think that enough cannot be said about how key TWD's first episode was to everything that's followed and how incredibly well done that episode was. Maybe if Frank Darabont had been involved in the launch of FTWD I'd be saying the same thing about that show. At least FTWD is making up for the relative lack of Hispanics on the mother show. So there's that. Hopefully the show isn't going to go too far into stranger in a strange land territory, though, with its depiction of Latin culture, as I don't think it's all that unusual. But then I've lived mostly in places with large Hispanic populations for awhile now. EDIT: I see there is a thread for show comparisons, should have checked first!

I think the part of this episode that sums it all up for me is when Nick has run from the trio on the highway and he stops, bends over to catch his breath and then looks up and the camera's on his face as he perceives what is in front of him with some kind of expression, wonder maybe? he's so bland as an actor that whatever it was it seemed like something interesting was in front of him, or we were supposed to get that from his reaction, and I felt a twinge of interest, like oh okay now something worthwhile is about to be shown to us through this character's eyes and the camera turns around to show us what he's looking at and it's an empty expanse of desert. Some cactus and scrub brush. It's like watching some low budget european art film from the 1980s or something. Meant to be deep but just dull and pointless.

I guess they had to go with dogs because a horse wouldn't have attacked Nick and the show couldn't have treated us to that lovely scene of animals being taken down by walkers. Because they've never done that kind of thing before. (sarcasm alert) He didn't seem to be anywhere near a town so I wondered about that herd of walkers who seemed to have come out of nowhere. I guess the highway? They didn't seem as lethal as I've come to expect, more shambling, less reactive. I admit I don't know that much about this show, I've only seen a few episodes but I really have no idea what anything was supposed to mean. Nick didn't exhibit any redeeming qualities IMO, he doesn't seem especially resourceful or worth saving for some other reason and I felt zero empathy for him. If the show intends to make Nick a central focus going forward, I can't imagine it will be worth my while to go back and watch all the past episodes to see if I can better understand what's happening.

If the point of this episode is to make me completely apathetic about the fate of this particular character then mission accomplished!

I think maybe because Fear the Walking Dead returns on 8/21 and doing something on the mother show a week before they hope will drive interest in FTWD?

After what Shaw went through after she was taken by Samaritan and losing Root, I'm glad that she made it through to the end. I think she'll meet up with the others who are getting numbers and will carry on. Fusco will be around, maybe he'll help out now and then, but I think mostly he'll work his regular job, raise his kid and find someone to fall in love with. Harold will be with Grace and I think he'll teach math and be a mentor to his students. He won't work numbers, he won't know it's happening, except somehow I think he will. He'll read things in the newspaper or see something on the net and he will know. John Reese was one sexy guy. To the end. I like to think he's with Carter now, still out there in some other dimension doing the necessary when it's necessary, kicking ass and taking names. Hooah!

I don't know that Shaw is going to find the whole Root lives on in the Machine all that comforting. I wonder what Samaritan needs Harold's help for. I know it wasn't meant to be comical but I found the armored SUV chasing Root and Harold as they went wheeling down city streets find of funny, it was ridiculous with all that fire power and neither one of them is hit but the ex-con house painter guy turns out to be some kind of master sniper at a moment's notice. I think the mention of Harold's father triggered something in him, pulled everything into focus for him at that moment.

Interesting post. I am not surprised that the audience skews older and more "traditional" in its tastes. But I don't necessarily put that on Blake. I think there are plenty of people, young and old and in-between, living in urban / coastal areas who like country music. I put the demographics down to how younger people consume entertainment product these days and also how anything that's too mainstream isn't going to hold their attention for all that long. The Voice was a novelty at first, not being able to see the contestants, etc., but after that wears off it's just another talent competition. And it requires a commitment of time, several weeks where you have to tune in to keep up with what's going on. I just think that format fits an older, maybe more rural / small town type of person than a younger person or someone living in a bigger city where there's lots of entertainment choices outside the living room. I remember being (much) younger and the equivalent on TV at the time was a show called Star Search, which I remember watching maybe the first season or parts of the first one or two seasons and then I had other stuff to do, school and friends and whatever crappy job i had at the time. I sampled enough of it to get what it was about and then I moved on to whatever else I thought was interesting at the time.

I've only been watching this show since the Tessane Chin season and I think that everyone who's won since I've been watching has been talented and whether they were my own special favorite or not I wasn't surprised by the winner. It's not as if someone who could barely carry a tune has won the show or something. I think it's like any reality show, there's a narrative that develops around particular singers and that's what gets out there to get people interested and supportive of the show by watching and voting and buying the songs. But then I think this show is about making money for the network and what happens with any of the contestants is kind of beside the point for the people behind the scenes calling the shots. P.S. Kudos to Adam Wakefield for not singing a gospel song or hymn in the finale. It's not that I mind that kind of music, it's just what comes to mind when I think of audience manipulation.

I didn't really understand the big push to have a female coach win either. The women who've appeared on this show as coaches are all highly successful and worth millions. What does being the coach of a winning contestant supposed to add to that? Also funny because I suspect that far more women actually vote/buy songs than men. We're supposed to vote for the female coach's contestant because...sisterhood? Also funny because the female contestants who've managed to make some kind of career after the show have pretty much done that with the assistance of...a man (Blake Shelton). At least I haven't heard anything about Christina / Shakira / Gwen doing anything special for any of the women that have been on their teams. I also think that Adam W. is more original than Craig Wayne Boyd although Craig does have a good voice and a certain amount of showmanship and he's been been touring fairly regularly since he won the show even though the album deal fell through.

I think anyone who enters this contest does it with the hope of winning. And even if it isn't their absolute dream it would be churlish to show you didn't really care deeply about it in interviews. The person I thought seemed the most interested in winning this was Laith. He projected a certain intensity, to me at least, certainly more than Adam who has probably gotten exactly what he needed here, some exposure, getting to know Blake, etc. I would have liked to see Hannah win because I think she is very talented and is someone who hasn't spent her life trying to pursue music as a career, at least until now, so that would have been interesting, to see whether or not she could make a go of it with that extra push. Which maybe she'll get that anyway.

It seems as though the more popular and successful singers these days do write a lot of their own material, Taylor Swift, Adele, Meghan Trainor, people like that. I'm not in the music business so I don't know exactly why that is but I would imagine that it's just easier to produce someone who comes with his or her own music as opposed to someone who has a great voice but you have to find material for that person. i don't think a person has to have written a song to have it be meaningful and touch people. Dolly Parton wrote one of Whitney Houston's most popular and successful songs, I Will Always Love You, and I think most people would agree that Whitney's version is amazing and heart-felt and all that. And Dolly has made a lot of money off Whitney singing her song.

I did some more looking and came up with this list: Former contestants slated to make appearances on the finale episodes of the series include Kelly Clarkson, William Hung, Ruben Studdard, Fantasia, Carrie Underwood, Taylor Hicks, Jordin Sparks, David Cook, Kris Allen, Lee DeWyze, Scotty McCreery, Phillip Phillips, Candice Glover, Caleb Johnson, Nick Fradiani, Ace Young, Allison Iraheta, Amber Holcomb, Blake Lewis, Bo Bice, Brandon Rogers, Bucky Covington, Carly Smithson, Casey James, Chris Daughtry, Clark Beckham, Clay Aiken, Colton Dixon, Constantine Maroulis, Danny Gokey, David Archuleta, Diana DeGarmo, Elliott Yamin, George Huff, James Durbin, Jasmine Trias, Jennifer Hudson, Jessica Sanchez, Joshua Ledet, Justin Guarini, Katharine McPhee, Kellie Pickler, Kimberley Locke, Kree Harrison, LaToya London, Lauren Alaina, Melinda Doolittle, Mikalah Gordon, Pia Toscano, Sanjaya, Skylar Laine, and Tamyra Gray. The ones in bold are the winners. Mikalah Gordon, maybe that's who you're talking about?

You're not a success in the music business because you win a singing competition. That's why the prize is a recording contract. That's what the contestants are competing and hoping for. And even winning that doesn't mean you're successful, as I think Caleb Johnson and Candice Glover would agree. This is why singing competition shows are criticized so much. Especially The Voice. Because there isn't enough focus on what it takes to sustain a career as a successful recording artist. And being popular on the show means nothing if people don't buy your records once you've put one out or pay to see you perform live. Viewers don't pay anything to watch the show and the don't pay anything to vote.

I don't know if this has already been posted but thought people might find this helpful. All past winners appeared on the finale along with the following contestants: Ace Young Allison Iraheta Amber Holcomb Blake Lewis Bo Bice Bucky Covington Brandon Rogers Casey James Carly Smithson Chris Daughtry Clark Beckham Clay Aiken Colton Dixon Constantine Maroulis Danny Gokey Diana DeGarmo Elliott Yamin George Huff James Durbin Jessica Sanchez Jennifer Hudson (in a pre-taped performance) Joshua Ledet Justin Guarini Katharine McPhee Kellie Pickler Kimberley Locke Kree Harrison LaToya London Lauren Alaina Melinda Doolittle Pia Toscano Sanjaya Skylar Lane Tamyra Gray I take back something I wrote upthread, that outside of a few obvious names, everybody else who showed up probably didn't have much else going on because looking at this list I think these are all people to one degree or another are still actively working on their careers. And the people who didn't show up have maybe dropped out or who are focused on other things. Assuming that others were invited and could have shown up.

Success happens when people buy their music and pay to see them perform. Which may or may not be the same people who watched the show. That's when they become stars, when that happens. Being on the show was just a door to walk through in search of that success. Nobody competed on this show in the hopes of winning AI so they could go back home to their old jobs. Which I know i'm stating the obvious and not really to your point. I was disappointed not to see Crystal Bowersox who I think was one of the best singers ever on this show. And I would really like to have seen Elise Testone perform, I'm not sure if she was even there. And Haley Reinhart.

I think Adam Lambert probably thinks his career is more important than anyone else's, or at least that he has to make decisions based on what's best for him and he shouldn't be criticized that he didn't care enough to or that he's mad at the show or there was some kind of conspiracy to explain why he wasn't there. And these comments are from his fans? I'm really not meaning to run anybody else down, Carrie or Kris or whoever. I'm sure they all made decisions about what to do based on what they thought was best or just based on what they felt like doing. To the extent they are not contractually obligated to participate in AI events.

Adam was criticized for not flying down from Toronto, thousands of miles away, to make what would have been a brief personal appearance or, in the alternative, criticized not arranging some kind of taped performance, assuming that was even available to him. In contrast to the supposedly significant sacrifices that Carrie Underwood made in rearranging her tour dates. To which I noted that if she did move things around, she compensated for that sacrifice by having several moments to discuss how she was extending her tour by adding dates and encouraging people to buy tickets to her show. Kris Allen supposedly also sacrificed by moving tour dates around. Again, in comparison to Adam Lambert who wouldn't leave a movie set and fly thousands of miles to show up in person for a brief appearance on the finale. I like Kris Allen and I'm sure the few hundred fans who were inconvenienced by his not showing up somewhere on Thursday night were disappointed but the opportunity to participate in the finale and be noticed (again) by millions of people watching on TV might have seemed like a fair trade-off, from his standpoint, to whatever venue he had to skip out on. Even if he was just another WGWG along with 4 others on the finale. Adam Lambert is successful, he has a pretty good career going, a career that isn't dependent on AI at all anymore. And I disagree that his fans are mostly AI centered, or at least hopefully not based just on seeing him show up on AI because obviously that ain't happening no more.

I think I didn't make my point very well. Carrie came on and pitched her tour. Kris Allen's not exactly burning it up out there so can't imagine it was that huge of a sacrifice to switch a few dates around. Kelly's taped performance was several minutes long, fittingly so as the first and one of the two most successful winners, and there's no way they were going to do anywhere close to that for a non-winning contestant. Except for a Jennifer Hudson, who won an Oscar. Her terms get met I'm sure when it comes to AI, arguably she doesn't owe the show all that much. I like Adam Lambert and think he's hugely talented and his season, along with Season 5 and 11, are my favorites but the fact that he didn't tape some cheesy goodbye, 30 seconds of him singing Ring of Fire again or something, doesn't really seem like a huge eff U to the show or to the fans.

It would have been cool to have Adam there but the reason he wasn't is a tribute to AI and the role it's played in his life, as much if not more than if he had made an appearance on stage last night. Because he's working on a movie! He's had so much success in his career and he credits that to American idol opening the door for him. I think for a lot of the past contestants who showed up, not all but a lot of them, it's not like they have all that much else going on that they couldn't schedule a few days to be in LA for the finale.

I don't get the impression that it's a rerun of the Kidman-Cruise marriage not that I have any basis to know anything about it. It just seems like it would have to be different because Keith Urban seems light years away from what Tom Cruise is all about (not to pick on ole Tom or anything). So yeah, it might have been an agreement between the two of them, that she'd stay out of it. Speaking of celebrities, one of the things I liked about last night is that it was all about the AI contestants and winners over the life of the show and we didn't have any of the guest performers like they always have before on the finale or focusing on any celebrities in the crowd. Although it would have been interesting to see who some of the current finalists might have ended up performing with. They really didn't get any air time at all.

Nicole Kidman is a huge movie star on an international scale and while Keith is no slouch and very successful himself, I wonder if maybe she hasn't been on AI because this is HIS thing and she wouldn't want to draw the attention to herself. She's with him at music awards shows and he with her at the Oscars or wherever but that's a little different, those aren't paying jobs per se. I don't know, just a thought.