anamika

And then we had Sansa's dumb ass threaten him with her 10 Northerners, lol. Not to mention Yara and the Iron Born being there and being Dany supporters. I really wish GreyWorm had taken Sansa up on her threat and showed her what's what. She really is the new Cersei and gets a pass for all the stupid things she does. I wish Jon would have been given the chance to confront her about her betrayal but of course D&D are not going to allow for any of that to happen to their fave.

Sansa: You should be Lord of Winterfell Bran: Nah, I am the 3ER now. Tyrion: You should be King of the 7K Bran: Ok, then! Little did we know then that Bran was just aiming for a higher position than Lord of WF. Benioff : Well, Sansa asks for independence while Yara kind of forgot that she had made a deal with Dany...

So did we get the ending to the joke about the honeycomb and the jackass? Jon and Arya at the end. The good bye was nice. At least something of an ending for these two considering how much I like their relationship in the books.

All that Nazi imagery with Dany and the Unsullied, damn. D&D really are tone deaf. They keep wanting me to give a damn about Dany's soldiers killing Lannister soldiers, but I am just not caring at this point about evil Dany because it's done so badly.

So the North get special privileges and independence over kingdoms like Dorne and the Iron Islands? fucking lol! But hey, D&D got to make Sansa queen like they always wanted. Jon and Ghost was the only good thing about this episode for me. That and Arya leaving this mess of a story. Brienne writing Jaime's conclusion. What a joke. That bro council at the end, ugh. Tyrion getting off free after making Jon do his dirty work. No consequences to his shitty decision making skills for three seasons.

Well fellow spoilers and speculation folks! This is it. Series finale and goodbye to this thread. Today it ends. I have enjoyed our discussions, debates, arguments and while several of us have had differences of opinions, it's been a fun time. I think a few of us have been on here for quite some time and it's been great discussing this show, the books, the mythology and everything about the series with you guys! Ultimately a lot of the foreshadowing, mythology and character development meant nothing on the show as D&D rushed to the end prioritizing subverted expectations and spectacle over the characters and story. But it is an ending - to both the show and the books. For this series and for the characters I have known for some 20 years ago. Good bye to them and and to this fictional world. Cheers!

I am sure Emilia Clarke wants to continue working in Hollywood considering she's living in the States now and dissing your former showrunners is not the done thing. No matter how displeased one is. We have seen actors getting backlisted for daring to complain about the shows/films that made them famous. Joe Dempsie criticizing the show and Jacob Anderson calling him 'brave' and asking if he does not want a part in Star Wars at around .30 seconds in this video is telling: Joe is also not that attached to the show or the writers and hence maybe can be more free in what he can say about the show. Conleth Hill has also openly talked about his disappointment. And as Maisie Williams repeatedly stated in her interviews when asked about the ending - it's done now. This is a character they have spend a lot of time with and grew up with and it's done and they have finished filming. Nothing can be changed and it's better and happier for all of them as actors to accept that and move on (Around the 1 minute mark in the video below) Sure, we will see some of the actors criticize the show and the writing. But for the most part, if they want to continue working in Hollywood, we are not going to see anything against the showrunners. The show made them rich and famous after all. I doubt they are going to be crying over this.

I think they will spend some time on Jon and Dany and Jon having to kill her. It's after all their big ending for the series. Dany and the man she loved having to kill her. If they do this in 10 minutes, the backlash these guys have seen thus far will be nothing compared to what they will get for the finale. I think 30 minutes for Jon/Dany so that Emilia Clarke can try for her Emmy, 30 minutes for the trial so that Dinklage can get his Emmy and 20 minutes for the denouement.

Like come on. Sansa's plot for three seasons now has been about her wanting to rule the North instead of Jon and that can only happen if he's gone. Tyrion even tells this to her. She plotted to destroy Jon's life after knowing that Jon loves Dany and that he does not want the Iron Throne. Why in the world would she be sad about Jon going away? Or Bran and Arya for that matter? Her brother is King of Westeros, giving her more power - which is all she is interested in as per the show. This is what she has been working towards and she got it. Tyrion and Sansa have sweet endings. So do Jaime and Cersei - finally finding peace with each other at the very end. Arya also gets a good one - no more killing and revenge and she is going off on adventures. The only character who does not get a happy ending is the visionary who wanted to save slaves and change the world and ended up going mad because of some bells and has to be put down by her lover.

Don't forget Sansa. Constantly keeps betraying her brother and faces no consequences for her actions. Sansa is also secretly an expert molecular biologist. She stole some of Dany's cells from her Starbuck's coffee cup and did some research and discovered that the gene for Targaryen madness was going to be activated very soon. Hence her constant hostility. I agree with Arya right now. Sansa is like the smartest person in Westeros. Right at the start of season 7 she told Jon that the existential zombie threat was not going to be a big deal and that their final antagonist was going to be Cersei. Did Idiot Jon listen to this genius sister? No. As soon as Sansa saw Dany, she could immediately tell that Dany was going to go mad and raze KL to the ground. I think the twist or the third 'holy shit' moment is that Sansa is the real 3ER who could see all the future season 8 plots and tried to warn everyone else. But no one listened. Sad.

https://ew.com/tv/2019/05/12/game-thrones-cersei-kings-landing-battle-interview/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app I remember Emilia Clarke giving an interview on how this season was an exploration of power and how Cersei had lost everything because she desired power and whether Dany really wanted that. And we never got any of that on the show. There was no exploration of power. Dany just went mad after hearing bells. I remember David and Dan talking about an interesting scene coming up between Jon and Cersei this season in their DVD commentary. And that did not happen. No Cersei miscarriage as well. I guess whatever Kit and possibly Emilia shot in Dubrovnik is next episode. Lena confirms that Jaime and Cersei really loved each other till the very end and that Brienne was just a temporary side fling for Jaime to realize that the only person he truly loved is Cersei.

D&D either really hate Jon as a character or Kit or they are terribly writers. I do think that Arya will have a role in defeating the Others in the books. Her character is heavily involved in the magical/fantastical elements of the books and her character is closely connected to the North, weirwoods and warging. But the thing is that in the books, characters are not restricted to just one plot/arc - they are multifaceted, complex, change and adapt to the situations around them. By the time we get to book 5, Jon is more involved in the Northern politics and plot than with the story of the Others/AOTD. He is busy plotting and strategizing with Stannis against the Boltons, conferring with mountain clans, playing the game against the Karstarks, there's a will that makes him KITN and he finally basically destroys the NW as an institution by going to war against Ramsay to save his sister. Jon's very politically savvy knowing the ins and outs of the Northern houses. The battle of the bastard in the books is most likely going to be a straightforward battle between Jon and Ramsay considering there are going to be direwolves involved - not a showcasing of how Sansa is now a 'boss-ass bitch' like on the show and had to help poor idiot Jon out. D&D on the other hand restricted Jon solely to the NK/AOTD plot, turning him into a political dunce/idiot and gave over the Ramsay/North plot to Sansa - because her book story in the Vale was not that interesting to them and they openly stated how Sansa is their favorite character and they wanted her to have a more important role on the show. Okay fine. At least Jon still has the AOTD/NK story right? No actually. They had to justify Arya's 2 season FM arc and had to subvert expectations, so Arya was going to take out the NK and let's finish off the AOTD in an episode and make that entire plot irrelevant and all Jon gets to do is swing around a sword. Jon was ultimately wrong about this threat and the humans fighting against each other was more important. He was a bad military strategist on the show because as per D&D all his plans had to fail otherwise it would be 'kinda dull' in their own words. What about Jon's parentage? R+L=J? PTWP? Howland Reed, Lyanna and Ned? Is any of this important for Jon as a character? No, all that is only relevant in so far as to make Dany paranoid about Jon even though noble, unambitious idiot Jon tells her he is not interested in the throne. Any of his relationships that GRRM build up in the books important? lol, no. Arya is now Sansa's best buddy and basically told Jon that Sansa's family and he better watch out or else. Ghost? Does not even get a hug because who cares. Dany? Don't really know because it's so badly written and rushed. They basically stripped book Jon of his characterization, story, plot, narrative themes, everything and reduced him to a plot device for other characters. By the end, it was Sansa who was making all the decisions up North and doling out military advice while Jon just stood there like a dunce. He ultimately did nothing, achieved nothing and contributed nothing to his own story on the show. An absolute waste of a character.

I don't think it's worth watching for Jon and Bran's journey now as well Knowing what we now know about the NK and the AOTD, why bother with Jon's story? The AOTD were not that big of a deal, the long night lasted one night and all they needed was FM Arya. As someone else posted, why watch Bran crawl towards a tree for 8 years either? Jaime had no story either. The female characters may have got some terribly sexist writing, but at least they got a story and had an impact. Arya killed the NK, Sansa became the smartest person of Westeros and took down several baddies, Cersei defeated her enemies and held onto KL till the very end and Dany razed KL to the ground after finally having had enough. Considering D&D saying now that Dany was already showing signs of madness for not crying over Viserys, someone pointed out book Tyrion's deeds: https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/bokhon/spoilers_main_the_issue_isnt_the_lack_of/enihv3w?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x Ignoring D&D's saint Tyrion fanfiction on the show, I think in my own head cannon, I am going to take it as Tyrion actually being brilliant really. Remember when Tyrion told Cersei this? Now imagine, if Tyrion allied with Dany in Essos to do precisely this and helped Dany and her dragons get to KL and turned Cersei's joy to ashes. And he finally wins the Game of Thrones and rules over Westeros because he's the smartest and most qualified to do so. To me this is more palatable than Tyrion crying over Cersei because she's a mother. Of course to do this, I have to ignore the entirety of season 7 and since there's nothing of worth in that season, it's pretty easy to do. I think it's been quite clear for some time now that YMBQ was a self-fulfilling prophecy and this queen was none other than Cersei herself. The prophecy is what sets of her paranoia and her plotting. She hates Tyrion because she thinks he is the Valonqar, she hates and plots against Sansa, Margaery etc. because she thinks they are the younger queens and everything Cersei did as the younger, more beautiful queen is what ultimately leads to her downfall. And that's why mad queen Dany on the show is so frustrating. We already have a mad queen in the books and the show - Cersei slowly becoming more and more paranoid and doing increasingly stupid things like Aerys did - which is going to lead to her downfall. But apparently D&D felt the need for there to be two mad queens battling it out at the end.

The next book that GRRM is currently writing is 'The Winds of Winter'. In which Jon is still dead, Arya is still in Braavos, Dany is not even going to finish her arc in Essos and Sansa is just starting her Vale plot. And you think that GRRM is going to have the Others - who he has not even introduced yet- defeated in this book? And the very hopeful 'A dream of spring' is going to be about human beings fighting and destroying each other? GRRM's plan for his books from his original outline when it was still a trilogy: GRRM's final battle has always been about the Others - something he has reiterated several times in his interviews. The central message being that people keep fighting each other while ignoring the far more dangerous threat up North. As for the scouring of the shire - that's the very ending of LOTR where our heroes return from fighting Sauron and find out that their world did not escape unscathed. That's what's bittersweet about it. The scouring of the shire is not a whole book about our heroes fighting each other. It is about the reality of life after war - and people have speculated it's based on Tolkien's own experiences. It's a dream of spring - it's about the ending after winter and war. On the show our characters were scoring the shire for 7 seasons, not paying attention to Sauron, then defeated him in one quick fight, then went back to scoring the shire. I doubt this is what GRRM is writing. The show itself hints at this in Dany's vision where she first enters a burned down KL covered in ashes - but before she can touch the throne, a call from beyond the wall makes her go there where she meets a dead drogo and child most probably in the afterlife. So the show itself indicated in season two that Dany destroys KL before she goes North.

I will have to disagree here. Making Dany the final villain would have the same message that the show has right now - political squabbles and infighting is more important than this is existential threat (Climate change) that threatens mankind. And I really don't think that this is GRRM's moral of his story. I think his Fire and Ice are meant to clash with each other and destroy each other. Why not? As I said, Book Tyrion rapes a slave because she does not want to sleep with him. He wants to rape and murder Cersei. Would you call him a hero? GRRM has referred to him as a villain in the books. On the show he is most definitely a hero - good, kind, smart, cares about the well being of the people, wants to save his sister because she's a mother, is celibate and mourning his lost loves, has a hero's journey from underdog to ruler of the 7K. So if Tyrion can be a hero on the show, cannot Dany be a hero in the books?

People keep talking about that vision of Dany's with the Iron Throne in ashes in season 2 but let's recall that she does not touch the throne and instead hears a call and goes beyond the wall. In the final season D&D turned the order around because they wanted to keep Lena Headey and Cersei around till the very end. And if they had stuck to this order and what GRRM is heading toward which is most likely Dany getting rid rid of fAegon in a dance of dragons, sacking KL and sitting there as the queen of Ashes once Jon became KITN and went to her for help, then the underlying message of the series still stands. And then Dany goes North for the final book and the war against the Others. Because even if the show destroyed the entire premise and message of the series, that’s not the story GRRM is trying to tell. That's why characters like fAegon matter in the books. GRRM’s characters are flawed and morally grey and do terrible things – but he does not consider these acts to make them nonredeemable. His Tyrion rapes a sex slave in a brothel and as per the show ends up being de facto ruler of the 7K. His characters don't do evil things because some bells went off and it turns on some Targaryen genes for madness. Even Aerys II – the poster boy for Targ madness - went mad over years - not in the span of 30 seconds. But apparently according to D&D’s nonsensical interviews Dany was mad right from the start when she was cold about her abusive brother being killed by Drogo. I have noticed that this is a common thing in D&D’s commentaries. How Dany is cruel, merciless, without compassion, mad etc. because she does not show emotion. I remember the random comparison they made with Dany not crying over executing those two stranger Tarlys and compassionate Sansa crying over her mentor of 7 seasons when she executed LF. They have this idea that women who don't show emotion are somehow cruel and mad. There was a post over at ASoIaF at how the showrunners venerate mothers in their writing pointing to David Nutter's explanation for Tyrion's bizzare trust in Cersei And considering that Dany is barren, D&D probably see her as even more of a monster than Cersei. All this is also a complete disservice to GRRM's homage to the non-traditional women in his life growing up in the seventies with Arya and D&D then reducing Arya to a revenge obsessed psychopathic killer and giving over all her skillsets, plots and narrative themes to Sansa. D&D have inherently sexist views about women and it just shows in their writing. Dany dying on the show means that she dies in the books. But I am pretty sure she dies in the books fighting their ultimate antagonist - the Others beyond the wall. The books are called Ice and Fire for a reason - it signals the clash between Dany/Dragons (Fire) and the Others (Ice).

I don't think Brienne is getting pregnant. D&D are going to stick her with their fave, being her bodyguard. At least they have something of a relationship this season and Sansa respected Brienne's relationship with Jaime more than she did her brother's relationship with Dany. So that's something.

Jon's lineage should not be useless to him. The realization that his entire life was a big lie and that he is a Targaryen should not be useless to him. Arya's realizations that this brother she loved all her life is not a Stark should not be useless. Hell, even Theon got more time to hash out his identity issues than Jon Snow did. On here we were wondering who was going to tell Jon that he was both a Targaryen and a Stark - no one did because the writers did not give a damn about the effect of this big secret on Jon Snow as a person. All he was allowed to do was be uncomfortable about incest sex. That's it. As for Dany, in the books, she thinks that she would have married her nephew Aegon had he lived. Here however, she never even considers this despite saying last season that she was going to marry for alliances and Varys spouts some misogynistic bs about Dany being too strong for Jon. None of what they wrote in the last two episodes make sense for the characters ON THE SHOW itself. Never mind the books. I think this Tumblr post perfectly highlights how terribly they have written the characters and plots this season: https://turtle-paced.tumblr.com/post/184846196637/thoughts-on-805

Actually they just blew up the whole Rhaegar - Lyanna stuff from the books with this ending. As per the show now, it was just an ordinary love affair and Rhaegar just eloped with Lyanna because he loved her and did not care about any of the consequences. That vision Dany had in the books of Rhaegar looking at her and talking about the dragon having 3 heads, prince that was promised and song of ice and fire and all that ultimately meant nothing - because Rhaegar did not elope because of prophecy as per the show. Rhaegar ran away for love and got KL sacked by Tywin and his goons the first time around and some 16-17 years later his son and sister fell in love and were involved in the sacking of KL again. And there's no meaning behind any of this. It just happened. And as per the show, Dany was the ultimate antagonist. Not the zombies up North, Cersei, Joffrey, Ramsay. But Dany. And she became the ultimate series antagonist 30 minutes into the penultimate episode because of some bells. But she dies fighting for what she's always wanted. There was no point to Bran's journey and anything he ever said or did except now apparently Tyrion is going to use him as a puppet ruler. Sophie Turner did indeed spoil the ending with her tattoo all those months ago, though I am not sure if that was the right show quote to use considering the character she plays is a devious, backstabbing snake willing to throw family under the bus for personal gain. But she gets to rule the North like she always wanted. Arya seems to have some semblance of a proper arc. She got to have some fun sexy times with a hot blacksmith, utilized her two season Braavos plot to take down the NK and now has given up on revenge. I used to want her to stay at WF, but now would rather she go off on adventures. Jon's best story remains his time at the wall and with the wildlings. Fitting that he goes back there. Kit mentioned that he found Jon's ending satisfying - and after 3 seasons of terrible writing for the character, I agree. This is the only place he can end up. Tyrion ends up in charge after bungling up things for everyone else. He can take over for Jon as the noble, good moron in charge of KL and puppet Bran with his dudebros on the council. He's qualified to do so in the books. Jaime and Cersei - this show's true love story. Staying together through thick and thin. Came into this world together and left it together. Poor Brienne. I hope she can go out on adventures with Pod or go back to Tarth rather than being stuck as Sansa's bodyguard because of her oaths to Catelyn. She's a knight now. There's more she can do.

It's sad how much D&D took a big dump on the actual, good sibling relationship in the books - Jon and Arya . A 2 minute reunion scene was all these characters got despite chapters and chapters of Jon and Arya thinking of each other in the books and Jon dying for to save Arya. It's hard being fans of characters like Jon and Arya when one knows that D&D don't care about these characters and are only interested in writing for the Lannisters and Sansa.

I would have enjoyed this ending more if he did not destroy Dany's entire campaign that she build up painstakingly over 6 seasons with his moronic advice to her over two seasons and his nonsensical trust in Cersei. I would have had the same issue if Jon had ended up in charge considering how badly they have written him on the show and am glad that he fucks off to the North to be with Ghost and Tormund. On the show, no one is fit to be in charge and rule Westeros. They are all petty, moronic, selfish and power hungry to varying levels. I think Gwendoline Christie was the one who mentioned that no character on the show deserved the Iron Throne at the end. And I agree. Book Tyrion in charge of KL actually makes sense. As Hand of the King in KL he masterfully tackled ruling there and I doubt he is going to be similar to the show version - stupid and noble. One needs a certain ruthlessness to handle KL.

No matter how sad and angry Sam was with what Dany did to his brother, he did not tell Jon's secret to anyone. Sam thinks Dany is unfit to be queen. And still, he understood this was Jon's secret to tell. Jon did not even have to swear him to silence. He kept that secret for Jon. Because Sam actually cares about Jon. Sansa? Swearing in front of the Old Gods in the Godswood and then tattling to Tyrion so that she could destroy Dany and put her brother in the snakepit that is KL? That's clearly treachery. And Dany has every right to get rid of her like she did Varys. But the show's narrative seems to not allow Jon and Arya (last season) to get rightfully pissed off at all the shit Sansa does. And the showrunners trying to justify Sansa's nonsense. Last episode David Nutter was saying that Sansa did not really tell Tyrion about Jon's parentage and that she just implied it and Tyrion put 2 and 2 together, when in this episode Tyrion clearly states that Sansa told him.

From the youtube comments for next episode, lol! Reading episode reactions is more fun these days! Why did Bran save Jaime's life at his Northern trial and indicate he was important? So that he could kill 10 wights?

I think we should know better than to make sense of D&D's writing at this point. It is what it is. Dany has already been at the end of a lot of double standards. So arguing about why this makes sense when that does not is not going to get us any answers. I guess Dany is genetically mad because Targ and everyone else is not and hence they will rule and be on the council and all that. Tyrion is also the noblest of men on the show. Kit predicted years ago that Tyrion was going to end up ruling Westeros because he was most qualified. So he was lying when he talked about how he never guessed the ending.