kingshearte

This is it exactly, and what makes him so alarming. Taken individually, a lot of things he's said/done are not so bad, or could be spun or interpreted in perfectly innocuous ways. When you add it all up, it starts to get disturbing, but you do have to be prepared to look at him and his behaviour overall, rather than just dismissing each individual incident. For her and her kids sake, I hope we're all wrong, but he definitely send up enough red flags that I certainly wouldn't take things any farther with him.

Agreed. I mean, it's not like their relationship is so hot or rock-solid that it breaking up at the end would be a huge shocker, but knowing for 100% certain that they're not going to make it just makes them all that much more of a snooze-fest. Bad, bad call. I thought that too. Even if it's true, it's still kind of a sucky thing to put out there for your kids to someday potentially see. Who wants to find out that mommy or daddy basically told the entire world that their feelings for your other parent were basically nothing compared to these new feelings? I really didn't understand Wells choosing Ashley. It's so obvious that he and Jami had so much more in common, it almost seemed like it had to be producer-driven. Although, if I knew nothing about either of their personalities, I personally would find Ashley hotter, so maybe that clouded his judgement? Thank goodness he came to his senses though. Regardless of whether anything did or did not happen in the Fantasy Suite (and honestly, I'm picturing her pouncing, him turning her down, and her then having a giant dramatic weep-fest that he has to somehow placate), who wants to have that brought up for the rest of their life? And Izzy... I would definitely believe it more if she'd come to this realization without being dumped by Brett. But I still say that at least part of her problem was buying into the notion that society wants to put on us that finding someone else attractive means there's something wrong with your relationship. Either way, good on Vinny for having none of it.

Although I have no doubt that that caber was extremely heavy, I still had to laugh when someone expressed awe at how big it was. My dear, you have clearly never seen a real caber toss competition, because that was the tiniest twig of a caber I've ever seen. There is no way any of these people would have been able to even pick a standard one up, let alone toss it. Actually flipping it would be right out. Still, though, I always thought it would be cool to toss one, so knowing that they do exist in more manageable sizes (I guess even the real heavyweight champs have to start somewhere) gives me at least a glimmer of hope. And I gotta say, kudos to the teams that made it through the dancing. Highland dancing is no joke. And although the judge wasn't particularly picky about technique, I can vouch for the stamina that's called for just to do it, regardless of how well or poorly you actually perform the steps. I've sort of half-assed a class now and then due to injury or just being too tired or whatever, and it's still exhausting. This was definitely one of the most physically gruelling legs I've ever seen.

I never understood the Izzie love, because that's been my reaction to her from my very first watch. Almost from Day 1, I've found her to be completely and utterly insufferable.

Hell, maybe she should even think about sleeping around a little. I rather suspect that, at this point, she's built up losing her virginity to that one special guy to such monumentally epic proportions that it can't help but be a let down when it happens. It might be better to just find a kind, considerate dude to have that first time with, without attaching any unrealistic expectations to it. But then, I find the whole concept of virginity to be a touch ridiculous anyway, so what do I know. Oh, I'd forgotten about this. I could feel my eyes narrowing as he said this. I didn't find him particularly attractive before, and that remark didn't exactly help.

All this. This episode was just one red flag after another, both in his treatment of her and of everyone else. It's rapidly becoming intensely disturbing to watch. I'd even take the gross moaning over this. That was just laughably gross. This... is not laughable at all. This is also a good point. I can't say that I'm particularly concerned for Grant's physical safety, but Lace's behaviour is pretty strongly in the emotionally abusive column, and it's no less disturbing coming from her than it is from Josh. I notice them sometimes, but mostly off-handedly. This monstrosity almost had me doing a spit-take. I get that rompers seem to be (inexplicably, to me) a thing these days, but that one was awful, and the red gloves or detached sleeves or whatever? What the actual fuck? Finally, I am truly sorry to see Daniel go. I kind of want him to have his own show. He's just so delightfully weird. And that end clip of him and the twin discussing the location of Italy? I know the twins are not the smartest in the bunch, but I really got the vibe there that she was trolling him kind of the same way he tends to troll people, and I thought it was kind of hilarious to see him try to navigate it. But seriously. There's kind of almost a part of me that would love to see him as Bachelor, so we could be treated to weeks and weeks of nothing but his delightful weirdness. You wouldn't even need to drink to watch, because watching him for an hour and a half would already feel like being drunk!

That was the lamp Daniel tried to woo Izzy with. Still, though, smashing it on the beach seemed like a very weird plan. And it made him seem a touch overly aggressive. So thankful that Jared did indeed opt to leave with Caila. Any relationship will stand a much better chance out of the spotlight. oes anyone know if there are any reports on whether or not they're still together? I still say though that unless Jared cuts Ashley out of his life entirely, he's never going to get to have a relationship with anyone else. Between his need to cater to her taking herself hostage and any sane woman's instinct to just plain not mess with this dynamic, nothing will move forward as long as she's in the picture. Which all leads me to my final assessment of Jared, which is that he's either a complete idiot for not understanding the situation, or he's an asshole who understands it perfectly well and digs it. His decision to leave with Caila suggests that maybe it's actually the former, and he's finally starting to get a clue? As for Ashley... I get not wanting to be alone. I'm a much happier person when I'm in a relationship, and I have not much cared for being single in the past. But I've been functional. The idea that the only possible way of moving on from a non-starter of a relationship is to glom onto someone else is asinine. And, circling back to the "Jared's an idiot" theory, if he thinks that the way to get her out of his way so he can move forward is to just foist her off on someone else, but that he can still be close friends with her while she's foisted? Yeah, no. I think she made it pretty clear that, at the first hint of trouble in that other relationship, she'll be right back up in your grill. Gack. Girlfriend needs serious help.

I've said it before, and I'll probably say it again, but Jared needs to cut the cord. So does she, and if she had any self respect left at this point, she would find a way to do it. Take some time to mourn, sure, but if you spend enough time completely away from him, with no contact, you will move on. Promise. No matter how unlikely it seems now. But he is not helping. He thinks he is, but being her friend at all is not helping. Telling her he cries about her is not helping. Telling her repeatedly that he wants her to stick around is not helping. Until he says flat out "I don't want to be with you romantically, and I don't think we should be friends, because spending time together is not good for either of us," she's going to see every kind word from him as encouragement, and at this point, there is no way he doesn't know that. She will cry like nobody's business if he tells her that and follows through, but neither of them can move forward in life until he does or until she picks herself up and takes herself out of the situation. Caila's flip-flopping: Oh. My. God. That was ridiculous. It's one date. The stakes on this decision are not that high. Good grief. And Vinny and Izzy... OK, setting aside the fact that they have known each other for, like, a week, let's proceed like they are genuinely in a legit relationship. I really feel like their situation is a perfect example of why so many relationships fail. Society has tried so hard to convince us that if you really love someone, all others basically disappear and you can't possibly ever be attracted to someone else. And if you do find yourself attracted to someone else, that's a sign that you're not really in love or fully invested or whatever in your actual relationship. Which is an insanely stupid attitude. You do not have to confess every little crush you have on someone else. If you have the sort of relationship where you can acknowledge these things, and no one freaks out, great. But if not, just keep it to yourself, and don't fool yourself into thinking that occasionally lusting after someone else means you're not really into your partner, and that it is therefore a Big Deal that must be addressed or even pursued. Ugh. All that said, in this case, they have only known each other for an extremely short time, so if you want to go for it with someone else, knock yourself out.

The Jared and Ashley situation reminds me of the HIMYM episode where everyone was "on someone's hook." The vibe I get from Jared is that, while he may have told Ashley no, he's been too much of a chicken to make it a hard-stop, unequivocal no, but has rather maybe walked it back to a "No... but I guess anything's possible. Things could change, maybe someday... Never say never." Which keeps her on his hook, so to speak. He has got to make it a hard break, and, based on their interactions that we've seen, it doesn't seem like he's done that. I don't want to be with you... right now.

Oh Daniel... Another episode, another feeling of "what is with this guy"? His comment about how he would take care of the newborn sacrifice if necessary was hilarious. His reaction to his date being carted off at the end was hilarious. (And seriously, WTF was up with that? Was there supposed to be more to the date? Was he supposed to go after her and rescue her in some big romantic drama thing? It hardly seems possible that that's how the date was supposed to end.) His conversation during the date? Hilarious? I think? I said just last ep that I would assume he's straight unless he said otherwise, and now he sort of has, but was he serious? So hard to tell. Either way, I will say that I definitely don't think he's gay. He doesn't appear to be openly out, and closeted men are not usually that comfortable making jokes about finding other men attractive, because they're trying to keep up the illusion. So my guess is that he either is indeed bi, or he's just comfortable enough with his own self that he's OK with joking about or acknowledging other men's attractiveness. I am a little disappointed, though, that maybe he's not really that into Sarah after all. I was kind of maybe shipping them, just a little. Evan remains gross and creepy. "I have to go the hospital — ooh, I know! I'll make it into a date!" Even worse was that he didn't openly acknowledge that as his plan. If he'd outright asked her to go with him, I think I'd be less creeped out than by his child-like, manipulative pretending that his wanting her to come along was a spontaneous reaction to her offer to do so. And then there's Jared and Ashley. Girlfriend really seems unhinged and like she could use some legit help. But the very first help she should get should absolutely be Jared putting a firm and unequivocal end to any relationship or contact with her whatsoever. I don't believe that a fully grown adult doesn't understand that a friendship where one person is pining for the other is wildly unhealthy, so his allowing it to continue does not speak well of him. Yes, there's a distinct possibility that it wouldn't be enough, and that stronger, legal-type measures would be required, but from the sounds of things, he's trying to actually be her friend, and that's not OK under these circumstances. He needs to break all contact and ties with her, and she needs to get whatever help she needs to move on and become the functional human I hope she can be.

No idea. It's just one of the many mysteries of Daniel. On one hand, I would say that he doesn't make a particularly compelling case otherwise, but I don't think anyone is obligated to make a case for their own sexuality, so unless he says otherwise, I'll continue assuming not. But damn, he is weird. Sure, but Chris H isn't sleeping with him and has no vested interest in actively ignoring anything that makes him seem less appealing.

OK, for starters, producers, please please please stop it with the Josh moaning sounds. It was gross enough paired with the making out, but now you've given him the exact sounds over pizza? And then right back to making out? Shudder. And man, dude must be seriously sweaty for her to comment on it while they're in bed. Ick. When Daniel was helping Vinny shave his back, all I could think was "Of course it's Daniel helping with the manscaping." But then later he's drinking out of Vinny's belly button while Vinny's asleep? WTF? I swear, this man is going to make me say every single week that I just do not know what to make of him. But I hope he never leaves. Evan definitely skeeves me out. The way he talks and acts has a certain boyish quality, and not in a cute, charming way, but in a creepy, I'd feel like I was kissing a child, sort of way. I'm sure he's aiming for charming, but it's definitely not working for me. And yeah, dude needs a refresher on consent. No does not mean yes. And statements like "She closed the door but forgot to lock it, so maybe I can sneak back in"? Ew. So much no. He thinks he's a nice guy, but he's gross. Circling back to Josh, though, while we're on the subject of gross, I don't know if I was just more sensitive to it because it was in the middle of all this talk about whether or not he's emotionally abusive, but I did not care for his reaction to Amanda saying that she still kind of cared about Evan, or whatever exactly she said. Josh's reaction came across very much to me like "You can't still like him, because he did this thing that I didn't like, so I don't like him, and therefore you're not allowed to either." Maybe it's not quite red flag level, but it's maybe kind of a salmony-orange flag.

Oh yes. I'd almost forgotten about that, but it was definitely hilarious. And in a way, kind of makes me like her just a teensy bit more, for evidently having some self awareness and self restraint. We never saw her act like that on Ben's season, which suggests that she kept the drinking to a minimum, and just figured that here, she could let a little loose for an afternoon. I reserve the right to revise my opinion if she starts getting all hammered all the time, but for now, it's nice to see someone not drink to excess all the time just because there's an opportunity to do so. I don't know, sometimes someone makes so absolutely no sense that a rational brain can't even process it. Certainly if you're not used to dealing with that kind of thought process. I certainly wouldn't think less of anyone's intellect for not being able to instantly switch into the kind of mental contortions required to hold their own in that kind of a conversation. I don't know what the problem with her is either. And I find it interesting that so many here seem to find her downright unattractive. I actually find her one of the more attractive women who's there so far (I don't even hate her hair that much — I think Sarah's is way worse). I'm guessing there's a lack of true confidence that sets her back, which is unfortunate, because talk about a vicious circle.

I still like the softballers, because they seem decent to each other and competent with race tasks. Where they fall down is in strategy. They don't really seem to have a head for that, so they end up trying things that seem like strategy for strategy's sake (lying about the express pass, U-turning Jill & Emmett) but don't really gain them anything. If they could just quit it with that, they'd be fine. Also didn't love Joel & Ashley's reaction to being U-turned. She's been just shy of actively bugging me for the last week or so, and that kind of pushed past the limit. I think getting U-turned is a part of the game and should generally not be taken personally at all (and reacting that way to it is probably my most-liked moment of Jill & Emmet's to date), but you really have no call whatsoever to be upset with a team for U-turning you when they've already been U-turned. In that situation, they really have to U-turn somebody, and while it sucks if you get the short end of the stick and it ends up being you, suck it up. Sad to see Julie & Lowell go, but they should be really proud of getting as far as they did, and this truly was a rough leg for someone who can't see properly. I love that they were unfailingly supportive of each other, and that she quietly stepped up and took care f things he couldn't with neither recriminations on him for not being able to, nor crowing about what a great partner she is for picking up any slack. Generally just classy all around.

She is so all over the place in her interactions with him — often wildly hypocritical. Doesn't want him to cheer her on when she's doing roadblocks; screams at him the whole time he's doing them. Complains if he goes faster than her; complains if she doesn't think he's going fast enough (on at least one occasion when he was actually in front of her). Explicitly states that he's good at almost everything; berates his "poor" performance at almost everything, and, as you point out, refuses to take any advice from him, even on things that he is demonstrably competent at. That welding (like almost everything else involving her) was seriously cringe-worthy. He got his done on the first try, so maybe you might consider that he might have something useful to say about how to do it successfully? Maybe? Ugh. She needs to go away.

I really just don't even know what to make of Daniel anymore. Half the time, he's a weird combination of seriously full of himself and making no sense whatsoever (his onion conversation on the last episode was so baffling to... Sarah? that she wasn't even sure how to continue the conversation), and the other half, he seems actually insightful and genuinely sweet. I think he went for Sarah initially as a safety thing, but I think he's found himself actually into her in spite of himself. And I do find that fascinating, because I really would not have predicted that one of the most seemingly shallow people this show has ever seen would pick the woman with one arm. I am legitimately very intrigued by their relationship. I kind of can't help rooting for it. Josh and Amanda... probably were not in fact making out all day, but they were doing it enough that several people commented on how thoroughly their lips were glued together, so I have to assume it was more than just a brief session that we were treated to over and over again. For her sake, I truly hope that his moans were dubbed in and not actually happening while they were making out, because seriously? Tone it down a notch. And Evan, the answer to your "why not?" question is that there is no possible good outcome for you in going after probably the most unavailable woman in the joint. Particularly not while she's actually in the process of making out with someone else. The sheer cluelessness and, frankly, thoughtlessness of interrupting people who are that, well, busy is staggering. Unless there's actually a fire, leave them be. If you insist on this foolhardy plan, and least pick a better moment. On the other hand, maybe he just needs to work though his self-sabotage issues with a therapist, because that's really the only reason I can see that he would embark on this terrible, terrible idea. That and producer shenanigans, naturally. I also think that pulling a switcheroo on a guy who's known you for all of two minutes is really just setting him up to fail. A few more rose ceremonies down the line, maybe, but at this point, honestly, what do you expect? And I agree with those who observed that he did seem to sense that something was up, so I don't think he was quite as clueless as they're making him out to be. Finally, I'm finding this whole show and its premise kind of fascinating. On one hand, it is the trashiest, tackiest trainwreck of a concept. On the other hand, I actually find the idea that these people could find love more believable in this context than on the Bachelor/ette main shows. On the main show, there just really isn't that much time to truly get to know each other. Here, though, there's nothing but time. Yes, there's definitely some shallowness in initial attraction, and plenty of possibility for distraction. But if you do find a connection, and focus on that and spend time together talking (and getting physical — that's an important part of a relationship too), and you get to the end still into this person, I suspect there's a decent chance you can actually make something out of that. I certainly imagine that any couple who leaves the show as a couple probably knows each other better than most Bachelor/ette couples know each other by the end of their seasons.

Nope. I fully realize that's a very heavy, very serious thing to even imply about someone, but if there's any reality at all to what we saw (mixed in with lots of salt, naturally), I feel like she might be lucky that she interacted with him in this scenario, with so many people around. On the other hand, as we've more or less established here, it's unlikely that Chad drinks much if at all usually, and the drinking does seem to be what pushes him from mere douchey asshole to serious rage monster, so if she'd met him under other circumstances, things might not have gone the way they did. Still, though, I'm not really prepared to blame her. Yes, she was hammered, too, and yes, she was playing along, and yes, the vibe they'd mutually established was a little off (can't really argue with... Vinny, was it, who suggested that they'd be the sort of couple to slap and choke each other while having sex, and to each their own, but I will say that that sort of thing needs to be clearly articulated and consented to by all parties, and should never involve alcohol), but something he did or said crossed a line (or maybe she just changed her mind), and he did not take that well, or even seem to understand it. I just can't quite get behind blaming her for the abuse he started dishing out. As for him... He should really not drink. I definitely got the impression that he literally did not remember the previous evening, thus he genuinely believed that people were lying when they said he said some of the things he said. I actually kind of hope that he has seen the un-bleeped footage from that night so he can see exactly how he behaves when he drinks, and I hope he does a little self reflection after all this (although it didn't really look like he has on the Men Tell All & After the Final Rose shows). That said, I've never been one to give anyone much of a pass on the way they act when drunk. I truly believe that people do not say things drunk that they don't at least think sober. And he revealed some pretty gross attitudes. Basically, I don't think either he or Lace is really in the right headspace to make it through an environment like this (actually, I'm not sure how anyone is. I really can't quite wrap my head around the idea of deliberately putting myself in the kind of emotional torture chamber this whole franchise clearly is). All that said, I'm kind of extra skeeved out by the franchise and the producers and whatnot at this point. They absolutely set him up, hoping he would act that way, and I think it's gross even for this franchise to deliberately bait someone who has shown himself to have such violent tendencies, and to effectively celebrate it, even while they pretend to be so aghast. If they keep it up, sooner or later, someone is going to get legitimately hurt (whether by Chad or by some future unstable douchebag they find), and they are leaving themselves wide open to liability issues when that happens. That and it really is just plain gross and exploitative, even for this show. That opening credits sequence, though, seriously is the greatest thing ever, and I really hope we can get on with moving past all this Chad crap ASAP so we can just enjoy the regular levels of gross and exploitative.

I wish I could like your post more than once.

I wondered the same thing about the rings. And I hope they had some sort of conversations at some point about what sort of ring she wanted. Also agree with the general consensus that Jordan picked the best of the bunch. That thing was still, like, six times bigger than anything I'd ever want to wear. I am forever thankful that my husband took me at my word when I said I wanted a very small ring. I just have no interest whatsoever in wearing an enormous piece of bling like the ones available for this show. Yikes. Also yikes? The whole father/parental blessing/permission nonsense. I am firmly on the side of thinking it's straight up gross, but it seems to come up so often on this show that I sort of just have to swallow the bile and move on, but this time around, OMG, they would just not let me. They just went on and on about it to the point that I honestly thought I might need to go find myself a barf bag. That said, even if I allow that it's very important to JoJo, I thought she was being a bit ridiculous in her discussion about it with Jordan. He didn't ask your dad, because he got nervous, or because he didn't want to just be one of a line of suitors making his case to her father. OK, I guess that's disappointing if you really wanted him to. But then you also flip out when he says that he's not sure if he'd propose tomorrow or whenever the final rose is. Honey, you just told him that it was vitally important for him to ask your dad before he asks you, and he hasn't yet. Maybe he thinks you don't want him to ask you until he's asked your dad. Yes, there are phones, and ways of making it happen before the ceremony, and that happened and all, and yay, but really. If you genuinely want your parents' blessing (and not merely daddy's icky permission), you should be totally down with not getting a proposal right away, and giving your intended and your parents time to earn and bestow their blessing. Bah! The whole thing just skeeves me out. I had to laugh at JoJo's convo with her family after Jordan left, though. They were all totally gung-ho about Robby, until she basically made it clear that she wanted them to support Jordan, and then they were all "Well, we're not saying it has to be Robby. We didn't not like Jordan..." Her brother really had a point, though, when he pointed out that if she really wasn't sure before, her reaction to their support of Robby really should have given her a clue about her own feelings. Sort of like Phoebe from Friends' endorsement of using coin tosses to make major life decisions — not because you should just do whatever the coin says, but because your reaction to what the coin says can provide significant insight. Anyway. Bring on the next season.

I know, right? She was actually a little badass there.

Definitely this. We know she was still hurting from her past relationship during Ben's season, and if we're prepared to accept that at least some kind of feelings do develop during these things, that's two relationships/situations in rapid succession from which she could probably really use some time to recover from. Bouncing straight into this, ending with, theoretically, a relationship seems like a just straight up terrible idea.

The comment above reminded me of another thought I had, which is this: JoJo, why on earth are you so horrified and devastated when you discover that you're not in love with someone? She kept going on and on about how much she wanted to be in love with Chase, but she just wasn't, and blah blah blah, and all I could think was Honey, that's good! That makes your job of eliminating someone easier! I would think that by this point, most leads should want to basically know who they're going to pick.* Obviously, they still have to make a show of waffling, but really, I would think that actually being in love with all three of your final three would be the last thing you'd actually want. * And yes, I know that in this case, it's been wildly obvious from the beginning, so it's really all silly, but anyway.

I often find myself wondering what would happen if feelings ever managed to develop between him and one of the women. He's a friendly face for the contestants, and he's pretty much the only friend figure the leads really have during the process, so it strikes me as not entirely beyond the realm of possibility. But can you imagine? That could really give us the "most dramatic rose ceremony ever." Flower names? What? Did we see this at any point? How did I miss this? As for Chad, I still really don't know what to make of him. The violent streak is concerning (and I don't think it's at all unreasonable to view that streak as a serious red flag for a woman involved with him or for potential future kids), but on the other hand, if he had an actual history of violence in real life, we'd have heard about it by now. But frankly, even if it's just a character he's playing, it's still not a character I have any interest in seeing.

I really enjoy how Jillian is constantly screeching "Hurry up, Emmett!" Until he does, and then it's "Wait for me, Emmett!" Dude just can't win. I like that Lowell doesn't go on and on about his vision loss as a big sob story, even if it does get mentioned with regard to practical matters like task performance (and I was also glad he was able to spot those red ribboned logs without too much trouble). That way, when he does remind us that he's trying to see as much as possible before he loses it, while we're being treated to some truly stunning scenery, it really has some impact.

I believe Christina is referring to the dancers, Dana and Matt. She was by no means the worst this show has ever seen, but I found the way she treated her partner appalling. He wasn't always the best partner either, but not on her level. Just to keep things vaguely on-topic, I totally get a similar vibe from Jillian and Emmett. He may not be ideal, but she seems a thousand times worse.