krimimimi

Thanks for posting that, Trini. Sadly, it doesn't exactly fill me with hope. So moving forward, Cons: 1) Stapleton is still a marble mouthed mumbler who insists on pausing.his sentences.after no more.than three words. I had hoped someone behind the cameras would have picked up on that by now and and flogged him into coherence. And just like in the eps that have already aired, his lines remain the only ones I have problems understanding. 2) The neck beard and disheveled appearance remain unchanged. Seriously? When the leading lady has to spend 7 hours in makeup, I don't think it's too much to ask to expect the leading man to acquaint himself with the business end of a razor. I swear, everything every show ever has agreed on about FBI field agents is that they're well groomed and clad people if nothing else. (Ok, except the BAU.) Stapleton looks like bum. 3) Reade remains the voice of reason reduced to seeming whiny because the hero isn't just blind, but apparently also deaf to logic, despite Reade making perfect sense. That characterization isn't doing either one of them any favors and is old only three eps in. Not looking forward to a continuation of that dynamic at all. I think it would help if some of the others echoed his concerns or boss lady put Reade in charge. (I accept that Weller can't be removed from the case because: drama, but that doesn't mean he has to be in charge.) 4) Hate hate HATE the emphasis on "It's a treasure map." & "She might just be the most important resource we've ever had." It was phenomenally stupid when he said it in show, repeating it every clip they make just makes me feel stupid for watching this pap. (But maybe they're just showcasing that he can on occasion string more than three words together?) 5) Similarly, I can let bygones be bygones and forgive and forget as long as shows don't keep revisiting or emphasizing past mistakes. I found the treatment of Jane in the pilot thoroughly unjustified and repugnant, and it's thankfully improved since. But the "Someone sent her back to me" comment bugs me a lot along the same lines. She's not "yours." She's not property. And way to make it all about you, asshat. I don't know how they've managed to make me dislike a character this much this quickly who has basically done nothing. It's not like he's out there kicking puppies. 6) Still takes itself waaaaaaay too seriously. Neutrals: Jane looks to remain a mixed bag. Still lots of weird googly-eyed, wounded bird "acting" that I would love to do without, but at least she points out that she can't be an 8 year old she that doesn't remember in any event, so maybe she's developing a clue. (That she feels she needs to say that makes me think Weller becomes even more of an idiot than he's been so far.) At least they aren't trying to lure us with more of the entitlement crap that dragged her down the last few eps (I demand to be an equal part of the investigation despite not following orders or proving reliable. I demand the truth at all times despite not sharing the same and for no really good reason at that. etc. Wasn't exactly made of win.) But Alexander still seems to be reprising all the worst aspects of her Kyle XY stint, where I cared neither for her performance nor character. I enjoyed her as Sif and know she can do better. Pros: The disproportionate inclusion of Dr. Borden, Patterson and Mayfair in the clip lets me hope that they know they've got some good stuff there (just like the exclusion of the female agent would indicate they know they've done nothing noteworthy with her.) Fingers crossed that that gets reflected in the future screen time/ storylines. And the emphasis on what I assume is a guest arc by Michael Gaston maybe indicates they know the leads and their drahahmah is some pretty weak sauce. Gaston has already managed to inject his character with more character than Sullivan has to date. (Alexander gets a pass for a few eps due to amnesia, but that won't excuse her forever.) But going off the clip, the next few eps probably won't improve things for me. Jane is largely just there to fight, which I find boring and shaky cam certainly doesn't help to make it more engaging. Too much emphasis is placed on an uncharismatic and unsympathetic Weller. And they didn't even bother to make Sullivan's lines more intelligible, so I doubt they consider it problematic enough to address in the future. This should have been a show I enjoy. I can't believe this is the end product they meant to produce.

Let us hope. From your keyboard to God's screen, as it were. The GA Penn possibility has made me realize I have little interest in seeing Orange is the New Black/ Prison Break/ Oz/ or even The Dirty Dozen all new and improved space versions. Basically, I think jails pretty much bore me as a locus dramaticus. Speaking of god... thanks to everyone who put "Traugott" into print. (It wasn't what I thought they were saying, so I'd have missed that.) "Traugott" is german for "trust god," so clearly they'll be evil while trying to attain immortality. Makes perfect sense. ;-) Good "Ketch."

I agree completely about terms like "space cowboy" and "daredevil" and certainly the whole "hero" bit, and I really wish they hadn't gone there. Even if it's not too thick in the presentation, I can't help but feel it's in the back of their heads. I also really dislike the characterization of a megacorp CEO as a "goof." It would have been nicer if they had given him some teeth (see theories of sociopathy in business), or just made him a wealthy heir, and not supposedly successful in his own right, which corresponds more with what we've been shown. (I would've preferred teeth, to be clear.) The thing that really bugs me about his character isn't that he's not afraid to risk himself for a good cause, but that he insists (primarily from necessity) on demanding at least that level sacrifice of those around him (because he can't do it on his own). For example, after nagging interminably while locked in the vault that the crew needed to show the intruders what they were made of, when the doors finally open, it was everyone but One that was armed and at least nominally prepared to fight. Contrast that with Six's plan in episode 2 to fly the shuttle on a presumed suicide mission kamikaze-fashion into the corporate ship. The only one at risk from their team was himself, and all the others stood to benefit from his actions. Six's comment at the time to One that he was the only one with a lick of sense on the Raza just added insult to injury after pretty much everyone had demonstrated more sense than One. One has heart (if boringly so, which is my second complaint with the character. good does not have to be whiny or bland.), but few brains. Six, otoh, was the one demonstrating hero material. And the scene chewing rendition of the real!Jace was just frightening. Less of either One works better for me. Especially less in combination with Two. YMMV. On the amusing side, Britta over on gateworld had this to say about One: "I do like that he isn't really who he can't remember supposedly being (and how many people get to say that?)" I like that, too.

The spec upthread that Android would have taken out One as first to awaken works for why 2&4 could have reprogrammed her given they were definitely targeting someone, and One sure isn't the goto guy to wake in case of emergency. Bearing in mind Four-Six were left in stasis for that whole scene. Except she wasn't exactly roaming the halls attacking people; she had to be activated. So maybe Five and Six had set her to keep the crew in check as a backup protection plan, if the mind-wipe didn't take? And who would have been woken first if the Raza had come out of FTL at the planet as expected? Or, we didn't see the attack start, probably to increase the funny (which worked. Three flying through the air does it for me every time.), but Android didn't attack Six (for a millisecond) until he drew a weapon, so maybe Three had done something that seemed aggressive as well? Was she on the offensive, or just aggressively defensive?

That cracked me up. But, the glass might have been a smart glass privacy screen? (They turn opaque or clear on the addition or removal of current. Whichever.) It was a dressing room, and the glass was placed right in front of the door. But obvs mostly because it looked cool. Pfft. The second one was a blink and you miss it shot of Three dozing open mouthed in front of One's door only to wake when Five screamed (when she found Six unconscious). Three'd have been too proud to state as much, but it's why he thought One was still possibly in play as a suspect. I like that the actor didn't oversell it and snore, drool and wipe sleep from his eyes, but it was quick. (I've complained a lot, so let me say I honestly appreciate a show that rewards me for actually watching and paying attention instead of surfing while it's on. Now go tell the #SyFy execs that's why viewers don't live tweet more. Although it's probably because that's insipid.) I liked Latverian Diplomat's speculation on Five's potential prosecution being the reason Six turns and begins helping the crew again. The last thing he says to her is "I'll be fine," significant pause, "and so will you. Promise." That'll have meaning. I'd love for DEM's spec to pay off that the memory wiping will bite Five in the backside, but I get the feeling "she's a kid" and gets a pass from our anti-heros. There really should be fallout. Especially after she's all: pre-wipe Lin is evil!bad and wanted to kill someone (seriously? no kidding. have you seen their wanted posters?), so she's evil now. Either people are forgiven (within the group. asking society to forgive them is probably going too far.) for their pre-wipe actions and everyone gets a clean slate, or she needs to be accountable for the wipe. You can't have it both ways. (Ditto One and his desire to murder Three for (possibly!! good grief!) assassinating One's wife.) But Five really worked my nerves this ep (she's gone back and forth on the trust question so often, I'm getting whiplash and do.not.care anymore. especially as she could have left at the stations anytime.), so I'm holding a grudge.

Good point. If they actually knew who One was, I could see them ransoming him back to his corp, but not killing him. (Who all had "kidnapping" on their rap sheets? Be ironic if it was everybody but Two and Four...) I can't see them needing to act like that just because they thought he was a random impostor, unless they caught hints of Six's UC-ness and mistakenly attributed it to One, thinking he was the cop? But still: One's not stunningly competent, so... Probably talking about Six. I like that idea better than mine. I think (as far as we know) Six's supposed crimes were really the only ones from which I couldn't picture a way back, and if he was UC, then that becomes moot and they become open to negotiations/cutting a deal.

I know your pain. I'm not so radical either as to skip Star Trek or anything, but I am fairly confident that Abrams had bugger all to do with the plot. That much assurance I need. He can touch the thing, but has to have next to no influence on the story or I'm out. /OT I had similar thoughts about Six over in the episode thread...

Clearly I am over thinking this, but... New and improved solution moving forward: Six was undercover as in example one above. Next the GA and the megacorps try to lay the blame for the planetary explosion squarely at the Raza's feet, and Six becomes frustrated that the corps aren't being held accountable at all (there are at least two that should be, per Two's analysis of the situation) while the crew face serious consequences (like dismantling in Two's case). Unable to bear the injustice and hypocrisy, he then assists the crew in escaping. We resume our story on board, where trust issues ensue.

Thanks so much for that! I assumed we had seen him before from the way the shot was done, but I 'm wretched with faces... Welp, that was somewhat disappointing. I think in part because too much about the memory wipe was uneven in the characterization this season (why did Four react so viscerally to things he didn't remember, or did Five tell him every bit she could (and if so, it really would have been nice to have a shot (couple second pan would have done it) that suggested that took place)? and was that enough? see also One's reaction after his own identity discovery, where he actually considers murdering Three... and if the fact that the situation indicates the crew was supposed to wipe out the miners in episode 2 and there would most likely be dire personal consequences for not doing so wasn't enough to get hardened mercenaries to murder in ep 2, then why is the suggestion that revenge murder was One's original goal enough to make him consider it that seriously now? or Three's reaction to Sarah's death?), and in the portrayal of the characters themselves, but also because they seem to be too fond of the twists and less concerned with the path they take to get there. I found the pacing and some of the reveals just off in ep 13, for example. The ship searching just dragged on, and it does not bode well when people still have to ask who did the wipe post reveal, just saying. Um... but on the up side, I really liked the "And Then There Were None" nod. So not all bad. Assuming the guys who boarded the ship were actually the GA troops the crew spotted coming their way and not some third party, I can come up with three soso solutions for Six's behavior at this point: 1) He was an undercover officer for the GA both at the time of the rebels blowing up that station, and in the present day on the Raza. Presumably his memory was wiped with the rest of them, because he passed Android's test. As DEM caught, the guy in the general's base is the GA commander at the end of the episode, so maybe he's an undercover GA officer embedded with the rebels, and he informs Six that Six was an undercover GA plant on the Raza, where he was sent after the GA moved in and stopped his suicide attempt post station bombing, sent him to counseling, and then decided to use the situation to their advantage (his cover wasn't blown, but he could no longer be used with the rebels). Past weirdness this solves: the scene where Five tells Six she now knows she can "trust him" after the dream stuff, where Six finds out he was used to blow up the station and then takes out his entire crew. He jumps out of the sequence at the point where it's shown that he failed to commit suicide, but she might have seen more. Because I remember after that scene thinking "Sure, because nothing says trustworthy like capping the people you work with and were celebrating with 2 minutes ago." But I've found Five so wretchedly uneven, that most WTFery there just makes me sigh and sadly not take it seriously. (I blame the characterization first and foremost, but the acting isn't helping.) And secondly, if he were suicidal and surrounded by weapons, why he didn't just grab the next one lying two feet away. But I think this means either needing more regular cast next year (which I doubt will happen), or a lot less of Roger Cross, so I'd like to think it won't be the explanation. Unless the memory wipe is enough to make him reverse himself and save the crew, but post planet explosion, I don't see that happening. Annoyance this causes, as SimoneS upthread pointed out, this wasn't how Roger Cross played the character (either post dream or post clone ep - the two logical points for him to figure out his role), so that's down to the stupid secrecy showrunners feel they need, and as usual at the cost of their own stories. Trust your craftsmen! At least give RC a heads up, and he'll build that into the character. Not doing so is a disservice to your actors and viewers alike. (From reading Mallozzi's blog, I gather he knew the ending well in advance, but basically no one else did.) 2) He wasn't undercover, but having just helped facilitate the deaths of 15K people, he feels guilty and takes action, negotiating the surrender of the Raza and crew for his release. But then I'd still expect him to be under guard at the end there, so less satisfying in portrayal. 3) This is part of his elaborate scheme to heist a GA cruiser. He's done it in the past, and he's doing it again now, but once again, as a solution it would feel forced in terms of the depiction. There's basically no need to force this execution (mutual suspicion) on the others, unless they're not going along with his plan. In which case he's seriously putting them in harm's way, which wouldn't fit with what we've been shown of his character. On the upside, this should put the breaks on One & Two schmoopiness. Other niggly bits - Two's soft and fluffy nature... well, not quite, but still DEM's empathy point raised above is valid. My assumptions post finale - Five did the wipe, probably to save One or Six, who had been uncovered as impostors (show gripe: why the hell would you (Two and Four) sit down with someone to just say "he" needs to be iced? wouldn't there be talk leading up to that? or did they sleep on it and reconvene???). The explanation that the robot had been set to kill by Two and Four above nicely explains why One woke first. But Three's was the only awakening we didn't see and he came armed, so he might have been the target (and the actual first to wake?) or in on the plan. If Six was revealed as an UC for GA, then perhaps he made a suggestion to make the Android more "nice" which Five implemented in a kludgey fashion and it's affecting her nanites. Those have been shown in ep 12 to be similar to Two's and also similarly vulnerable, so maybe that's how Android got glitchy and Two got nicer?

I was thinking along the same lines. Does the ship even have a brig (why would it?)? So except for quarantine in the med lab (where someone is liable to walk in and find her) or the vault with no atmosphere (so not a great idea, as we've seen), that's probably a good location to put someone on lockdown. And as we saw with Four in the second ep, threatening something (like torture) doesn't mean you're actually going to do it. Obviously, she wasn't ejected, and had to get out of there somehow. Twice now we've seen Three fold to threats to teammates' well being (when the real Jace was threatening One, Three offered 2 tidbits (that the crew had lost their memories, and that they had guns to sell), and the code for the vault when Two was threatened in the airlock) to stave off violence. So I don't think he's anywhere near as hardcore as he makes out. Or maybe he's pragmatic and just tries to keep people in play as long as possible. It's worked so far, so who knows. I was wondering if it won't turn out that he was the (pre-wipe) captain. I figure it's him or Two. I could also see this being part of a Dread Pirate Roberts scenario, and the crew is recently hired on, but didn't really know each other going in. (One and Five are definitely new.) And Three's more of a conman than a villain. We do have Sarah's vouching for him, but we don't know how long she's been in stasis. It could have been a while, and he's been busy amassing wealth. We also still have the Rothgar question to answer. Rothgar was confirmed to be male and known to the miners. The miners also met all of our male crew members, so none of them are Rothgar. So maybe Rothgar runs guns (like for the miners) and is part of the crew that left Three behind on Sarah's planet. And when Three went to settle that score, he got Rothgar's guns. That would wrap up two open storylines in one. Why do I feel the need to do that here? We had two clues that made the characters think their paths had intersected with Rothgar's - the shipment of guns and the necklace found in One's room. Something that stood out - Three's quarters were bare when he moved in, so not necessarily his. So what if One was in Three's room? One found a pair of specs in his room, and I can't picture a rich guy in the future needing specs. I figure that's supposed to be a clue as to whose room it was, and the specs most likely belong to Three or Six. And Three was kind of squinty when he was reading, but that may just have been the tears.... Either way, I've come to enjoy Three. He brings humor, both in terms of the character's snark and physical humor on the part of the actor, and I think I'm getting more enjoyment from him than anyone else at this point. I wouldn't have expected it at the start. He and One have done a total swap for me. One's lack of competence makes a big difference for me, and I completely agreed with Three's "I'm trying to put food on our table. What have you done for us lately?" take on One. Plus on rewatch, Three annoys me less in the beginning than he did the first time around, and One annoys me more until they reach the point in the season where One becomes annoying man and I watch the show around him. But I think there's also a pretty big gap in the quality of the acting, too, which certainly doesn't harm Three. Just my take, mileage varies of course. edit: typo was driving me bonkers... x.x

Thanks for the link, DEM. Worth mentioning for those that don't click through: all the questions offer either a "no one" or "someone else" answer as a cop way out. I'm betting no one dies, for example. Unless Android, and then they've got a spare in the vault. (I'm hoping One, of course, but that's not going to get me anywhere.) Spotted a link there to this post on setups and payoffs that I also found interesting. Many of those payoffs have already happened, but a few should be coming in the finale. Note: no answers provided to the questions raised, but the asking thereof might be considered telling. I was relieved to hear they had a plan for this. I've been hoping the overall story is better (richer, better plotted and far more deliberate) than a lot of people here seem to feel it is, but unfortunately isn't playing out quite as well as the show runners think for all of us viewers watching and not in on their end game. Getting to actually present your end game in television is down to how engaging the road there is. The destination matters, but only if you actually get to show it. How well mapped and satisfying the resolution is just determines whether viewers are willing to give you another chance in the future. Or watch the reruns/buy the DVDs. (I will not watch any future shows by JJ Abrams or the folks behind "How I Met Your Mother." But I gather I'm not alone in this.) Given the trust issues the Raza's crew should have (I have no idea who the hell I am, but I think I'm a decent person surrounded by what would seem to be a bunch of murderers, one of whom wiped my memory. Best be careful... Otoh, I'm wanted and low on resources, need allies and answers, so getting along probably makes sense.), a lot of the interesting stuff is basically (hopefully) taking place in the heads of a bunch of ciphers. Here's betting a book form could have felt more rewarding. As it is, it feels like we're left to guess what they're thinking, and what that and their actions might tell us about their personalities, leading to some inconsistencies and a fair bit of unevenness in what we're shown. I suspect asking us to trust that will all have meaning (and isn't bad: acting/direction/plotting, or the result of different script authors' visions) might be an ask too far for an audience already burned by the likes of "Lost." Otoh, anyone who thinks the CEO of a major corp is best described as a "goof" deserves at least a brow furrow, so who knows?

Seriously?!?In show, or in what passes for the extended experience these days, the blithering, lying, cba to keep up with their own deets show runners' interviews? (Nope, not bitter at all. Why do you ask?) Hope against hope, not onscreen. Because that makes Toby the ultimate toad, and Spencer a complete doormat. Do not like one iota. Also, bags of stupid. So CeCe talks to Mona for 30 seconds, because this has to happen this night, and cottons on to Toby, who had not previously worked for Mona, or had he? I had this impression that he only started working for A for the new A? Originally to "help Spencer," but later to get infos on his mom. But at this point, it should have been all about Spence, and if it were true, then he single-handedly gave A everything she needed to torment the girls, especially given the RV later on. But I have to cough to not closely following almost everything TobAy, because so many aspects of it made me spit. Particularly the acting choices and how it was resolved. Do the weird KA looks get better on rewatch? And once again something that makes zero sense given their own just newly created timeline. At least the Wren involvement had the benefit of helping to explain how Melissa and Wren could get back together and maybe with some hint of parental approval.

Thank you, because that (somewhat irrationally, in light of all the other plot holes) has been bugging me no end. Not sure why, but that just leapt out and bit me during that steaming mess of a finale, and I hadn't calmed down enough to ask here who else it could have been. (It also took me this long to read all the posts. You guys are seriously prolific.)The sad thing is that this and several other inconsistencies were writen in either this last episode or this half season. That's just sloppy. Shame! All they had to do here is change when (and why) CeCe was out and about and took over / piggy backed on the game. But to tackle the question, if it was Toby, they've got even more serious problems with what we're being shown/told about him, and Spoby as a unit. Much as I dislike the relationship, character (vastly preferred Toby 1.0) and actor, I really think that would be a mess too far. It's been hard enough to enjoy Spencer post sex!giveness, and I'd hate to lose what little respect I can still scrape up for the character. If it was Lucas, though, I'd have expected him to put that information to use back when TobiAs was trying to run him down with a truck, and he was generally being tortured after Mona's admission to Radley. Shanna / Jenna would have used it, too. Or at least threatened the girls. Kind of like Ali's "threaten everyone and their brother" on the night of 1000 yellow tops, to make sure she got to A. (If she were smarter, she'd have threatened successively, over the course of days, as opposed to within the span of a few hours, to try to narrow down who A was, but I guess she felt the time crunch of the death threat...) I guess Melissa would vaguely work for me as a solution. Was she even in the country at the time? Or Wren, who could have gotten the tip thanks to access to Mona, and he destroys the material out of affection/loyalty to Melissa and/or Spence? Who else is left? We need someone who wouldn't use the info against the Liars and others compromised therein, or maybe who did, and whose actions we have seen on screen. (Things attributed to A, but that we now understand St. CeCe would never have done, heaven forfend.) Or we need someone who would just torch the lot of it, so as to protect some of the people involved, but isn't close enough to the Liars to want to allay their fears about where it ended up (which Toby should have wanted to do), or, more probable, unaware that they knew about the material's existence, which is why it never got mentioned. Actually, that'd work. Wren processes Mona during her intake at Radley. She mutters incoherently about her Lair and the Last Resort. He gets on the horn to Melissa, who Hastings away and, as is their want, torches everything she can get her hands on. And because she and Spence never ever talk unless obliquely, she has no idea Spence even knew about the Lair, and Melissa opts to avoid freaking Spencer out by not mentioning it existed. Whaddaya think? As to Mona and Jenna and especially the cinnamon roll NoelKahn, they are sadly so thinly defined, that it's really hard to say what they did when and why. Pity, because they are interesting characters. With the info we've been given, it could have just as easily been a performance piece, cataclysmic break up, or all part of an uber sneaky plan. Who knows?

If we're shooting for a betrayal storyline, I'd pick Caleb, because he's pretty much the only guy I trust in Rosewood. And that'd suck. I'd like to see Hanna, Caleb and Ashley come out of this happy, alive, ok and non-A involved. Sadly, they've beaten me back to the point of not caring about most of the rest of the characters.

You're right that that would actually work as a well considered redemption arc (for once). And I think we've only seen Ali in school for about five minutes, so that's certainly an unexpected location. But given TPTB's perceived lack of need for redemption for Toby and especially Ezzzzra, I think it would just piss me off. Plus Evil!Ali is a lot juicier, and given the show runners spent all episodes till now demonstrating that they believe the story could only be continued if it revolved around A, despite having a built in murder mystery (or nine) to switch to (seriously? and they went with A instead???), I don't have much hope that that's not also what's in store in the future. Here's hoping SadieT's right about Ali being an evil mastermind instead. I was thinking both A's lair and the re-opened Radley wing for the criminally insane and hyperrealized would be unexpected locales as well. And so much more satisfying. One of the things they could have done (but sadly didn't) back when MonA was revealed is show how knowing A's identity doesn't actually solve the problem. (I'd have loved a season of the Liars trying to battle MonA which ultimately resulted in her Radley placement, instead of instant Radley followed by a disturbingly quick release. And of course the machinations necessary to subdue MonA should have made one of the murderers nervous and triggered him/her taking action against the Liars, giving us a new plot. sigh.) The Liars often had their hands tied or were forced into compliance not by not knowing who A was, but by not being willing to risk A's exposing their secrets. Those secrets, A's knowledge thereof, and the girls' subsequent vulnerability remains whether you know who's behind the mask or not. Knowing who it is just opens different avenues of attack. So if we have to continue with A, I'd like Ali to be it, and the Liars' desires to keep their secrets secret the hook.

Gotta ask - a bunch of folks have commented on the teacher who got in the Liars' faces about being at the prom, despite their banning. Do we know that was a teacher? Was she recognized or called by name? Because she reminded me of a volunteer parent chaperone. Parents have fewer problems spouting their agendas, where administration might give faculty massive grief. Plus that whole "ban them at the stake!" thing seemed so much more like a parent-driven move, concerned for their own children's safety. And it fits with her not actually doing anything about removing them from the premises, because zero actual authority, Moms. Pfft! I find teachers (especially older ones) have more experience making stuff happen even in the absence of actual power and tend to be less ineffectual. Or they get eaten alive early on and change careers.

That works perfectly for me, because it reduces it to one girl buried alive. And Evil!Ali makes so many of the story inconsistencies go away. Plus her overturned conviction increases the likelihood that she wouldn't be prosecuted (for anything) again in the near future. (Her conviction was always the glitch in my Charles&Ali tag team theory, and made me think they were battling it out instead, or there was another antagonist, but we've already had Mona and are seriously gilding the lily as is. If she's super evil, though, and responsible for Bethany's murder, then suddenly it becomes a gambit instead. I like that. :-))As to the Grunwald, who knows, maybe she rescued Bethany's ghost? I've certainly had problems keeping the long haired blondes straight, so maybe she couldn't tell the difference either. (That ghost bit makes more sense if you watched Ravenswood.)

I'd bet she is still playing more games than most notice. There was a scene early this season where Ali's talking to Spencer, who's only recently escaped from the dollhouse. And Ali manages somehow to make it all about herself, to the extent that Spence ends up comforting *her*. Right, because clearly Ali is the victim here. Pull the other one.* I can easily believe that Ali is changed by her experiences, in some ways maybe for the better, but I also think she has evolved due to them. I think she's a natural manipulator and narcissist, incapable of not at least trying to dictate the narrative. It was one of the reasons I actually cheered Hanna's shutting her down with the attempts to campaign for sympathy for Charles (but he's my brother, wah... he buried your mom with the petunias. bang.). Sure she was rude, but she wasn't wrong (per se). I accept all the very good points people here have made as to why Ali could feel conflicted, I'm just not sure that I buy that she actually is, or to what extent if so. And even if those points factor into her behavior, I'd bet her need to set the tone outweighs her doubts and insecurities about herself and/or Charles. Anyone pleading for understanding for someone who had victimized me, especially if it were someone they hardly even knew or knew anything about, would meet with a lot worse than Hanna dished out. And I'd hope that's true for most of us. Talk about your apologists. Except I still don't believe that's what Ali is. At best, Ali was incredibly tone deaf to the Liars' suffering, which is in direct opposition to the supposed empathy she's brimming with in being able to feel for poor Charles. At worst, she's trying to steer the girls again. And it worked with Spencer in that scene I mentioned above, and it worked to varying degrees with the others in the scene with Hanna's shutdown. All of which gives me hope that Ali isn't de-clawed, she's just more subtle. Because I found that Ali fascinating to watch, and thoroughly enjoyed SP's performances. Unlike the more recent ones. (I'm pretty sure the scene with Spence was in the ep with Andrew losing his shit with the girls, and he took a lot of flak here for that, for seeing himself as the victim. But I can't recall anyone expressing anything similar re Ali. So, yeah, way more subtle.) I also think comments like Ali's "you never even liked me" to Spence are pretty loaded, and find it interesting that (as I'm viewing it) Spence is more of a focus for such efforts than the other girls. * I believe very strongly that people are entitled to their feelings, and are not in competition with one another. I don't feel that you have to have the absolute worst story in order to be "allowed" to complain or receive comfort. In real life. With normal people. But Ali's 1) a fictional character (which directly influences how I discuss her) 2) who has shown some thoroughly malignant characteristics. (Whether or not we think we can understand (or even justify) how she came to be that way is less important than that she *is* that way.) And I think she has repeatedly demonstrated behavior I find hard not to view as sociopathic. In which case it pays to ask: is she really just down and in need of a hug, or is this a manipulation?

Does it even count as a theory when you don't have any faith in the writers to tie up loose ends or realize a storyline? I swear every stupid finale I sit there trying to come up with ways to take what we've been given and salvage something, and they pretty much screw the pooch every time. I've got a whole slew of problems with the show at this point, but two instances of Ali claiming something happened to her, that we know/believe happened to other characters really stand out for me. Those are 1) the supposed independent burial alive of two girls on the same evening, and 2) the kidnapping of the Liars/Ali making up the same story beforehand, yet *after* Sara's abduction (supposedly given no knowledge thereof). For mine, if those issues aren't addressed in the finale, the show will be irrevocably damaged in my eyes, and the writers outed as hacks - lazy or stupid, take your pick, because I agree with those of you who are sure open questions won't be addressed later/post-time jump. And the sad thing is, I still think it's possible to address them, but consider it unlikely that they will. (Why, oh why can't I just quit watching?) Currently we are supposed to believe that Ali and Bethany were 1) both hit on the head by somebody (or somebodies) and were 2) both buried alive 3) by someone other than the individual(s) who struck them. I'd be fine with them both being struck, if they hadn't both been buried alive, particularly by people other than the strikers. That's asking for me to believe too many coincidences. If the body had been meant to be found, the situation would also be different. But it was too well hidden for the second attack to serve as a stand-in for Ali. I'd even accept that they were both buried alive, if the strikers were the same person (someone who doesn't know how to conk somebody on the head properly/fatally, natch) and that person were the one to bury Bethany (enraged at Ali's rescue, X strikes again and finishes the job by planting her in the ground...), but not if she too was buried by a second person, unrelated to the assault. Once again, a step too far. And that only works if Melissa is the attacker (and buried Bethany), or if she was lying about burying Bethany (either of which she would do why??). Basically, we know that Bethany was buried alive. We have her body. There was an autopsy. (I reject the idea of a manipulated autopsy report because there is no way the coroner in a small town wouldn't remember a young woman had been buried alive. Or not.) And Melissa admits to having done this, which caused Bethany's death. That admission is a huge deal, so I consider it probable. And admitting that much also makes it's less likely (for me) that Melissa was the one to have struck Bethany. (At the least, she's already confessing to manslaughter. In for a penny...) But here we have Ali saying that that very same thing happened to her. Hmm. And as it stands, we have only the Grunwald's account of pulling Ali from a shallow grave to corroborate any part of Ali's story. It doesn't help that the Grunwald is more than a little loony. As to the abductions, we are supposed to believe that Ali made up a story of being kidnapped and held prisoner, but most emphatically not raped (while she was apparently actually just a runaway according to what she tells the girls), precisely what ends up happening to the Liars. And that version works fine for me, because I took their kidnapping as being *caused* by that false report. She goes on very public record claiming to be a kidnapping victim, and A decides to teach her a lesson. (Added bonus: Ali's cries of "wolf" reduce the sympathy the Liars get from the townsfolk post-dollhouse enormously. Pity that was hardly explored.) But then we're supposed to believe that Sara had been kidnapped years prior to Ali ever making that statement. That strikes me as unlikely. Especially as it's at least the second occurrence of this nature (see: burial alive). So for my money, either Sara wasn't abducted first (and is basically a nefarious faker, and probably in it with Charles or whomever), or Ali had knowledge of it. Both are satisfactory for me. What's not satisfactory is the idea that Ali made up the story that purely coincidentally relates what her brother (or whoever) was already doing to a girl Ali'd never heard of. Or maybe she's psychic, but that would leave me profoundly dissatisfied as well. Relating that to the first incident, if the explanation lies with Sara faking her imprisonment, it doesn't help explain the live burials. (It basically requires Melissa's involvement there, which is less streamlined.) But if Ali knew that Sara had been taken, then we have another more recent and serious incidence of Ali lying to the Liars (and us), and that would throw some doubt on her version of the events of the night of 1000 yellow tops. Which would also make her story of running away less probable. And that increases the likelihood of Ali being in cahoots with "Charles." Or of being in competition with him, for that matter, using the Liars and others as playing pieces in a dangerous and twisted game. If they're working together, how does that reconcile with the prom Ali-napping? Maybe now he's become so unstable, he's finally breaking for good. Maybe he wants to come clean, or just reunite with Jason. Whatever, there's a rift between them, or he's crumbling, which would explain(ish) the weird interaction at the prom. And here we are, with a mentally disturbed Charles, who only did some of the things we thought, allowing the (nevertheless thoroughly unacceptable) Liar forgiveness scenes (bitch, please). And moving forward, a return to evil Ali. Or they've been competing at malignant live chess. I also like the idea that she's working with NoelKahn, and Charles really died back in the day. And Mrs.D had to die so she wouldn't contradict Ali's versions of that or the burial. Goodness knows, SP deserves some better material. She always did well with what she had in the past, so I can only assume the blandness of returned Ali is down to what she's asked to play and fuzzy characterization. All of which also has the advantage of not playing into the crappy patriarchy blah blah victimization scenarios. I'd prefer A to be female. And closer in age to those targeted. Any of that convince any of you? That said, if they make Charles be 1) Ezra, I won't care if it makes sense. I'll just be thankful IH was given something to do, and the writers haven't ignored the implications of his watching the girls be stalked without action. Plus it means we don't have three(!) separate parallel instances of people surveilling the girls (NAT/A/Ezra). Yet another improbability that makes me stabby... 2) Wren, I'll be thankful for the return of the pretty. Sometimes that's enough. 3) Wilden, I'll survive. My expectations are low anyway, and Mona didn't make sense looking all dead last fall either.

You gice, I had a bad thought... Or maybe it was just the usual "we're making no progress" thought (although I still find that bad, just that it's SNAFU), but I think Melissa's confession may well turn out to be less sound than I'd hoped. Really, the way stuff goes here, if it sticks, it'll just mean nothing, coincidences happen, and probability is for the obsessive compulsive ("losers" is surely implied, thanks IMK), because Bethany won't matter and it'll clear up bugger all. And if Bethany matters, then we still don't know who attacked her. So there I was, reading some of the attempts to interpret what Melissa's confession tape means for us in the 5x11 episode thread and had a bit of a "duh" moment... Assumptions on my part: 1) I believe(d) Melissa's confession because it isn't in her interest, and even if you could think she'd been blackmailed into it, there's not a lot of threats you can make that would make putting the confession on tape an attractive alternative. Melissa was there that evening, it was a long time ago, she'd now have a bear of a time proving her admission was false. (And within hours of hearing about it, Spence had told everyone in passing a secret Melissa had revealed just once (to her father, um - but what about Ian?) in the past several years... Go Spence! Bless.) 2) I've never believed Ali's "I was buried alive" story, because we knew from the autopsy that that was how the body that was found under the gazebo had died. For me, that means something is wrong with Ali's story, although I think the what part of that may be up for grabs. I will not ever believe two similarly dressed girls were both koshed on the head, both buried alive, by two different people (yeah, right), who both failed to notice the respective individuals being buried were alive, all on the same night. And it was a coincidence to boot, because Melissa and Mrs. D weren't in cahoots. 3) If we believed the autopsy, then the only things new for us in Melissa's confession are: she says she was the one who put Bethany in the ground, she tells Spencer that Melissa believes/d Spence was capable of/had committed the assault (which we sort of figured anyway), and whoever attacked Bethany had left her lying out in the open. Crim came up with some interesting points on that last bit: And there were a number of good ideas and objections that followed. So then I began to ask some questions, and I came up with this: What if Melissa thinks she's telling the truth, but is mistaken? What if she buried Ali by mistake, and then the "Grunwald saves Ali" part of Ali's story could be true? (I wasn't entirely pleased with just saying the Grunwald is nuts/bought off/mistaken, so this seems more satisfying. OTOH, Ali had no trouble coming up with Cyrus to back up one of her heftier stories, so Grunwald = "unreliable witness" isn't off the boards. And I'm comfortable with Ali clawing her own way out, really.) Then Ali's "my mom buried me alive" bit is false, and the argument there is she would have had to worry about Mrs. D contradicting it, but interestingly enough Mrs. D was getting murdolated as this reveal was made. Now IIRC, Ali wasn't supposed to have known that tidbit yet, but it makes for some juicy speculation if she felt free to accuse her mom of just any old thing at the time. Hmmm... So that would leave us with: Someone bats Ali (Spence, for all I care - the wound was clearly non-fatal. And lordy, I've wanted to whack Ali more than a few times myself...), Melissa buries Ali (and Ali later lies about this, accusing her mother instead), the Grunwald unburies Ali (because Melissa severely fails at burying, girl: go ask Pepe for pointers and please take notes), Ali was planning on splitting anyway (so the scene at the motel with Mona is disingenuous), and the only way it makes sense that Bethany ends up in the grave in Ali-esque clothes with wounds matching/trumping Ali's is if Ali or a cohort puts her there. Timing isn't an issue, because a year after the fact, you won't be able to place the time of death within an hour or ten on that night. It's not like the body was left out in the open; it was fairly well hidden. And that, my lovelies, totally removes the irksome coincidence angle. Bethany (whack/bury) happened because Ali (whack/bury) happened, and not coincidentally in spite of it. This then also gives Ali leverage against Melissa, who will actually believe she herself (and maybe Spencer, depending on autopsy results and/or viewpoint) is responsible for Bethany's death when the body is found, giving Ali incentive to lie re: my mom buried me. Hastings(es) on the hook for murder is clearly a better set up than accusing Melissa of attempted crap!burial, the occurrence of which can't even be proven in the least, and probably isn't even illegal in Rosewood. Now owning the shovel that was used is another matter. Alternately, someone else sees the Melissa/Ali thing and decides to capitalize on the opportunity and get rid of Bethany that way, but then what incentive does Ali have to accuse her mom instead, and why would she feel free to falsely accuse her if she didn't know her mom was safely out of the way? And if Ali's evil enough to be involved with de-momming her family, then surely we don't need yet another murderer to be responsible for Bethany? This show has way too many people killing way too many other people as it is. So I haven't yet found the flaw. If your memory is better than mine, could you help point it out to me? One question I'm fuzzy on - was Jason the only one who said he saw Cece in a yellow top, or was that backed up by someone less blotto?

Aha! There we go! Thanks Lion10! I definitely got the feeling that there was at least a nanosecond of interest there in Season One from Em towards Toby (which would make Jenna not totally off the mark with that bit of snark), and had wondered at the time if the writers had then changed their minds as to how they wanted to define Emily's character. I do prefer the friendship route they chose for Toby and Emily instead (and seem to have mostly forgotten). Like I said, I thought she was supposed to have been bi, but I'm not sure that I haven't just conflated that with something I read in the forums respective the books.

At this point, I don't think it matters who A turns out to be - the motive won't be remotely justified. And they've already blown it by playing their "'cause she's nuts" card, which didn't even satisfy me last time around, when things hadn't gotten nearly as extreme. So Tippi the parrot has my vote, or maybe the corpse-finding dog.

My take was that Em was initially (supposed to be?) bi. She certainly dated that creep Ben. But then the decision fell to make her gay. Not sure how the books handled that, or if they even matter, I guess. But now I'm curious - was she bi in the books? Sorry, my fault - I didn't mean that literally. What I mean is that Emily has been given a number of chances to tell other characters off, and when she does, she makes herself heard. Leaving totally aside the issues of whether she was in the right or not (although I tend to be on Em's side in these things), she's broken up with Paige at least twice and certainly not shied away from a couple of arguments with Maya when Maya crossed whatever boundaries. I felt she was less understanding with Paige's dealing with her coming out than Maya had been with Em (although Em was well within her rights (and quite possibly a very healthy stance to take under the circumstances), but if *I* am forced to think of Maya as a good behavioral example, that argument has got to be more than a little vulnerable, because I didn't like the character and hated the portrayal. The woman made me itch.) I honestly don't recall the relationship ins and outs with Maya well enough to say when they were together or broken up, but I remember scenes after the dinner with Em's mom and sometime later when Maya was smoking pot around Emily. Ignoring the (non-)relationship with Samara (what was it? two dates?), Emily pretty much does the leaving/dictating of terms in her relationships, whereas Spencer seems to get left. I think Emily's generally fairly polite, well mannered and proper, and the most likely of the liars to write you a "thank you" note by far, but in my mind she's not the "nice one." (I'd say that's Hanna (and her mom, actually), who have fairly little (by the show's terms) but offer what they have, apparently to all and sundry, like passing werewolf hobos or friends and acquaintances whose parents have gone AWOL. But it's so heavily buried under ill-mannered gruffness in Hanna's case, that it is really easy to overlook, or just plain undone. If someone feeds you when you're hungry but insults you all the while, can they still be considered nice?) I think Em is fairly direct and in some ways less complex. I see Aria and Hanna both as more ambivalent about Jenna's blinding, sometimes feeling outright guilty about it or sorry for her. I don't see that in Em. Ali seems to be the only one that makes her... weak? stupid? (?? I dunno, I feel Ali diminishes Emily somehow, but I'm clearly missing the right adjective there.), and that's one of the reasons I'd have preferred to have left Ali dead, but if we get some Liar character growth out of this, I'll survive. If they were animals, I'd say Em is some kind of small mountain lion. She roars and Paige cries. And Spence has become more and more of an ineffectual, overwrought ferret, caught in a bear trap, wildly snapping in all directions while desperately chewing at its own leg in a bid for freedom, causing itself far more harm than its initial targets in the process. (You may safely assume that's not literal either... Turned out a bit graphic, but I'll let it stand.) That said, I actually prefer Spencer as a character, even if it might not seem like it. But unless Ali turns out to be A, I disagree very strongly that Emily suffered so much at her hands compared to Spencer/Toby. Emily and Aria got off fairly lightly Ali-wise from what I recall (I think Aria had the "I'll tell your mom you dad is cheating" threat hanging over her head, didn't she? But that was pretty much it?). The Toby/A team steaming pile of poo was something from which I saw no way back. But of course ultimately you're right, there's no way to reconcile something with sense when the writers just decide to "make it so!" I felt so robbed. *sigh*

Re: Spence hating (or not) Jenna for her treatment of Toby (as the liars understand things) vs: Emily's Yes, you would think that should be the case. But OTOH, it fits with her overall - see how much more easily Emily becomes angry and (at least somewhat) unrelenting with her partners for far more trivial infractions than Spencer does. (I view the Toby on the A team thing as a huge betrayal as it has been shown to have played out, but accept that not everyone sees it that way. Mileage varies.) I thought Spence should have kicked him to the curb, or there should have been some serious on screen grovelling for him to get back in her good graces, or at the least it should have been mentioned that it happened off screen. If she's not massively playing him, then the whole thing is beyond irksome (for me). Whereas Em is totally capable of cutting someone off at the knees (I'm not saying she always does, just that she can) just for giving her a funny look. Toast! You're history! It has it's pros and cons. I like to think that is a natural result of Emily's fairly healthy home life vs. what we've seen of Spencer's. I remember seeing Spence in season one and after watching the interaction with her parents feeling sorry for her, and like I understood (and liked) her a whole lot better. (I get less of that feeling watching them these days, but I think that's because their limited screen time is used to portray things other than super-demanding, emotionally unavailable parents who were so scarce with praise.) So I think in some ways that makes Spence a lot needier than Emily is, and much more compromising, and far more desperate for even the faintest morsels of affection, affirmation and attention. I really can't help feeling that Spencer's family have raised her to be a bit of a doormat in some regards. It's not that she never objects, it's just like she does so with far less effect, and I sometimes feel without even the expectation on her part that it should have one. ("I shall complain most vocally about Melissa and Dad and secrets and stuff, but nothing will ever come of it. And so shall it be evermore." Indeed.) I find it interesting that Spence doesn't seem to draw as much security out of her friendships as maybe Hanna, say. I liked the scene where Hanna was on the outs with Aria (after the Art Expo tickets for Ella thing) and you could see it really hurt Han and that it mattered. And I get the feeling when I see that, that it works the other way around, too: that the character is stronger for the friendship. With Spence, I feel like we just had Toby mopiness, which I find less appealing. (For clarification - I think it's fair game to anguish over failing relationships, I just prefer to not have that be exclusively relationships of a romantic nature. Platonic relationships should be at least similarly important in this age bracket. Otherwise you're a bit of a crap friend (like when Toby was able to pressure Spence to lie to her friends).)

I was just reading AfterEllen's Heather Hogan's recap of the ep (miss That Whacky Other Page's *sniff* recaps), and this jogged my memory to something that I felt stood out at the time: (Emphasis mine.) Between that scene, and Caleb's manning the laptop for hackerishness, I really felt like they were not even subtly showing us how Mona's strengths were covered by the group, and she might somehow be surplus to requirements. Spence has similar brains and general knowledge, and Caleb now has her MadApps to augument his similar hacker skillz to hers. No need for Mona. Of course after that final shot of her in the trunk, denial had pushed this firmly to the back of my mind. I'll miss her and her flounces.