poetgirl925

That is very on target. I'm annoyed by the characters being twisted for plot reasons this season. I knew I probably wasn't going to like the Black Canary arc. I was hopeful, but I was prepared for that. It's everything else that's bugging me at this point - bad writing, OOC moments for everyone, etc. I'm trying to give it some time, but the show is really on a downhill slide this season. The best episode by far was the Flarrow crossover but it presents the exact problem this review pointed - that it makes no sense to team with Malcolm when Oliver has other allies he could call. And let's face it - Arrow has a problem with taking plots too far. Example 1 - I might have bought Laurel forgiving Oliver for cheating once, but not for being a serial cheater or for sleeping with her sister. Example 2 - I could buy a redemptive arc for Malcolm, even after the Undertaking, but not after what he did to Sara and Thea. They just take it too far, and that will probably affect every character on this show at some point - and once they start damaging the characters I really like for plot, I'll be out

I'd be more interested in talking to his wife about Agent Carter tbh

Haha, okay then. Sometimes I wonder if her PR people have ulcers lol. No offense to her personally, but she's been in this business long enough to know better than to answer questions the way she sometimes does. I had no idea who she was before Arrow but I know she's been a CW roster actress for a while now. So, maybe this is a PR thing, promoting Olicity - smarter to get the fandom on your side than it is to provoke them.

Did she really call the fandom bullshit? (I looked but I can't find that anywhere.) I guess I can see why she would think so, but I'm really surprised that she would put that out there in any official capacity considering how much free promotion fandom gives the show (and especially since I'm assuming she wants the fandom to warm up to Laurel.)

Well. So that happened. The plots are now driving the characters like this season is the final lap of the Indy 500. Roy has apparently lost his mind. I mean, he's never been that bright, but the level of stupid he sank to with his speech about Malcolm was cringeworthy. At least Thea has the excuse of being lied to by literally everyone in her life, but Roy knows everything - he knows what Malcolm did to Thea and Sara. He lost friends in the Undertaking. WTF with his "Malcolm cares about people" speech. Laurel wants to team up with Malcolm. Why? " Because I'm actually paying attention!" No - no you're not. But thanks for playing, Fauxnary. Please pick up your buckle suit on the way out and leave the decision making to people who know what the hell they're talking about. What a sad, sad state of affairs when the special forces trained soldier is sidelined to make room for her nonsense. Is this going to happen in every episode now? I am not here for the Roy and Laurel sideshow. This show needs to get their freaking act together because I was hoping Brick was going to take them out before Malcolm intervened. Has no one told Laurel what Malcolm did with Thea and Sara? Has this chick never bothered to find out WHY Oliver went to fight Ra's? I know she just skimmed right over that a couple episodes ago (because Laurel and rational thought /basic reasoning skills don't seem to mix) but I kind of thought she'd want to know at some point. It's been a month - a month! So Sara's death was just a convenient plot point, easily forgotten? WTF. And if she does know and still wants to work with Malcolm? Again, WTF. This is the "big mystery" they used Sara's death to set up? Ugh. Ted Grant returned just to die? Is he dead? That's what it looked like. What a freaking stupid waste of a great comic character. But hey, he gave Laurel a few months of boxing lessons, so his work is done. It sounded like he hadn't even seen her in a while, so who the hell has she been training with? Roy? Arsenal is training Black Canary? The part of me that loves comics died a little at this realization. And somewhere in the comic universe, the real Dinah Lance is probably busy trying to change her name so she can deny any connection to this farcical Black Canary arc. Malcolm does not deserve a redemption arc now - not after what he did to Thea and Sara. Characters with more redemptive qualities have died, like Moira and Sara, but he gets a pass? The writers better be building to a "Gotcha!" moment here - one that involves his downfall. Sin = FTW. I'm so glad someone finally told Lance that's not Sara. I noticed his pills showed up again, so I guess his heart condition is like Laurel's drug problem - there when it's convenient. Diggle and Felicity = Always FTW. They just need their own show. Felicity telling Oliver "Nope! So done!" = FTW. That was quite a truth bomb she dropped on him. I don't think it makes her naive at all, and I thought it was in character for her. She and Diggle have always felt uncomfortable crossing certain lines, and I'm glad they circled back to that in this episode. I just hope it doesn't send her running to Ray, but of course it probably will because this is the CW. I don't know if I can watch next week's episode. The writing is so horrible now the episodes are painful to watch, and nothing makes sense. Maybe Katana will show up to kick Merlyn's ass? I'd tune in for that.

Ah, it was that Laurel and Ted Grant episode? That explains it. I fell asleep watching that one lol (really.) I woke up towards the end and knew the car crashed, but missed the other part. When I asked my friend what I missed, he said nothing interesting and just hit the highlights.

There was a Laurel/Oliver bridal carry scene in 3x06? Lol I must really be blocking or repressing stuff on this show at this point because I have absolutely zero recollection of that, and it sounds hilariously awkward since those two are about as interesting to watch together as it would be to watch paint dry. I hate to say it, but I don't give the show my full attention like I used to. The only way I can justify watching more than an hour of TV per day is to multitask - so now Arrow viewing gets combined with cooking, eating dinner, laundry, or treadmill time. At first I thought that was why I didn't understand the point of the flashbacks this season. Then I got around to checking reviews again after 3x10 aired and it seems I'm not alone in my confusion.

If I can forget how it started, I think I can warm up to Ray. He's getting crap about stuff that's not his fault at all IMO, and he is handling it pretty gracefully. I don't dislike him on the show all the time anyway - sometimes Ray is quite funny. Not really BR's fault these writers suck at romance. The problem with him on Arrow is that they don't have room to do justice to all these characters. They're essentially trying to do two origin stories this season - three if you count flashbacks, and four if this ends up being an origin for Thea as well. This season appears poised to repeat last season's mistakes, even though the EPs said they were aware of the season 2 issues. I guess we'll see.

"I still hate how this started, but I just learned to ignore that" - well, that accurately sums up how I feel about the last year or so. It's also the reason I've dropped the show a couple of times. I feel like some of these storylines turn out okay in the end, but they're prevented from being epic by the half-baked, sloppy storytelling that goes on at the beginning or in the middle. Slade/Deathstroke, Isabel, Laurel's addiction, Roy's ascension to Arsenal - I felt this way about all of it. They crowd the board, ensuring no one character gets enough story, and they're impatient - they want things without working through the story to get to them, like wanting Insta-Canary and creating Sara to get her when they should have spent that time developing the BC they apparently really wanted. And I totally disagree with that comic dude - this story bears only a passing resemblance to any BC origin story I've ever read, and that includes Dinah Drake from The Flash. The fact that they've utterly failed at making Laurel a sympathetic character only compounds the sloppy transition to 'hero'

I didn't have a problem with Laurel in the pilot. I hated the OTP part, mind you, but I didn't hate her. I kind of rolled my eyes when she went to Oliver and offered to talk at the end. I just didn't think it made sense for her to get over her anger so fast and that was clearly just a silly, manufactured moment. It was the second episode where she started annoying me - calling Oliver out in front of her co-worker and client and arguing with Quentin like a teenager made her seem immature and bratty. I think that was the episode where I started thinking she was miscast, too. But yeah, I used to find her scenes with Quentin unbearable. Then they went from anger to ice cream moments and I was ready to stop watching. Diggle and Moira, and later Felicity, kept me hanging on in season 1.

She was the victim of Oliver and Sara's lies, she always wanted to help people and they were killers, she's going to be a better BC because she's not a killer (that one must really sting now) etc, etc. *shrugs* I didn't say they were right, but I've seen a lot of these arguments posed by her most loyal defenders.I forgot that everyone abandoned Quentin except for her. She suffered, suffered, suffered. I tried to logically refute some of this with one of her super fans once, but my attempts at reasonable discussion ended with her kinda flipping out, so I never understood her rationale and had no desire to ever engage with her again.

I think many of the Laurel fans have long thought she held a moral high ground in comparison to other characters. But yeah, it's pretty bad when even her fans are pissed off by this stupid plot point.

Well, I don't blame Felicity or Diggle. As far as I can tell, this is par for the course whenever they try to make Laurel happen. Her stupid is contagious.

He actually said Laurel would have an "Oh I'm screwed" moment when Dinah came to town? See, that's his problem right there - they keep making things too much about Laurel when other people are equally, if not more, affected by what's going on. That's what makes her look so damn narcissistic. If that's what they were going for then fine, but it doesn't seem that that's what they wanted people to take away from this. It seems to me like they need to put greater thought into her character.

Seriously? Well that's disheartening. And if that's the case, they'll probably continue the same way. I can ignore Laurel, more or less, even though I don't usually watch shows where I actively dislike characters this much. I guess my continued viewing will be determined by my enjoyment of other aspects of the show - at this point that's mostly Oliver, Diggle and Felicity. Hopefully they don't keep ruining that dynamic

I've been out of the loop, I guess. I just can't see any positives for deliberately writing Laurel in a way that people will hate at the same time they're shoving her into the BC role. Why on earth would they want people to hate her more?

On another topic, you know things are bad when Hart of Dixie, a show meant to be all kinds of silly, makes more sense than Arrow. I watch it for laughs, but the last episode featured the town sheriff cross examining witnesses in the town bar, and it was more logical than any law proceeding on Arrow has ever been lol. I know that everyone interprets things in a different way (the Christmas playdoh scandal is proof of that) but I don't think they can be as oblivious as they pretend to be at times. I agree with those saying they underestimate the foolhardiness of some of their narrative decisions and the reaction it will garner. And @dancingnancy made a good point in that they probably go for 'gotcha' and take it too far. I don't usually rage quit shows, but there have been times I've needed a break from this one. It usually happens around this point in the season too - or it did last year. I had the season pass on iTunes and I still didn't get around to catching up until June. I quit for a while in season one as well. The thing is I only have time to watch maybe an hour or so of TV a day, so if I'm annoyed I don't watch. *shrugs* I guess we'll see how bad the next couple of episodes get.

I have to agree that it's the writers' and EPs' failure to notice what they're doing that concerns me the most. They seem to think that they're writing one thing while many people see something entirely different. Honestly, I'm not sure I believe them when they say they didn't consider certain things or audience reactions. Sometimes I wonder if they're just taking that stance in order to shrug it off. If they were writing some of these things on purpose and had a point to it, that would be different, but I don't think that's the case. I think they are just totally fine with taking massive shortcuts in their narrative storytelling, and it's becoming more and more of an issue with each passing season. This season, I'm not entirely sure I understand what's going on with some of the plots, especially in the flashbacks. Their characterization is way off from episode to episode, and that's been more of an issue since season 2 IMO. As for Laurel, I somehow doubt they are ever going to show her as being more personable or friendly, and here's why - they've gotten it into their heads that stubborn and recalcitrant and headstrong = a strong female character. They are very, very wrong about this, but I don't see any other reason to write Laurel the way that they do. It's occurred to me that maybe they're trying to write her as Oliver's equal because she's the female lead, and that's why we see her arguing with everyone or trying to take the lead from members of Team Arrow who have been around longer than her and have more to offer in the field (Diggle.) That's why we see her abusing her position as ADA. They seem to think it makes her a badass when what it really does is show that she is extremely morally grey at this point. Can you imagine if we saw Quentin doing this stuff, especially right now when police brutality is such an issue in American news? I'm not sure how they think it's different, just because she's a lawyer rather than a cop, but it's essentially the same thing IMO. They want to show she has 'fire' inside her, but what I see is that she lacks strategic thinking skills half the time - she just does things and then seems surprised by the consequence. This is completely counter intuitive since she's a lawyer, a job that hinges on strategic thinking. And because they want that plot point - showing how 'strong' she is - logical narrative and on-target characterization fall to the wayside. And for the love of all things, they have to stop giving her such stupid lines. To have her beat the heck out of a guy and try to kill another in one episode and then follow that up with her walking into her dad's office asking something like "Why are your officers allergic to search warrants?" makes her look laughably, utterly ridiculous. I mean, WTH? How can they not see this? I think characters like Moira and Felicity prove you don't have to be fighting for front and center space all the time in order to be strong, and you don't have to be constantly difficult and stubborn. Sara was sometimes written this way, but she certainly wasn't written that way as much as Laurel. The only difference is that Laurel is the female lead. So as much as I'd like to think this will change and they'll manage to (somehow) gracefully integrate her into Team Arrow, I have serious doubts.

Whether they want to admit it or not, I think they've combined elements of Manhunter with this version of Black Canary. Anyone who's read a comic with these characters can see it. Like you, I wouldn't mind it so much if they'd just admit Laurel's kind of shady and has some shady and rather selfish motivations for her actions. I could get behind that because not all characters have to be all good. Look at Oliver in season 1. Moira was a great example of this type of character. I actually really like morally ambiguous characters because they can be fun and they're unpredictable. On Agents of SHIELD I like Raina a lot, for example. I like Ward even though he's done terrible things. I like Red on The Blacklist. I find them all interesting from a psychological standpoint. The difference is no one is trying to present these characters as great, big-hearted, selfless heroes - not on screen and certainly not in interviews. No offense to the EPs or Katie Cassidy, but their interviews are kind of funny because they imply a complete disconnect with Laurel as she's been written. I think the problem is this show is fairly plot-driven. That's why we get the big leaps in narrative and character arcs that don't make sense. Laurel has clearly suffered the most from this narrative style - I suppose because they had her disconnected from the main narrative for so long. Unless they admit this character has gone down a morally grey path, and own it, I don't think Laurel will ever be anything but ridiculous.

That's a good point. I've been guessing about Felicity's feelings. Maybe if I had her POV I'd feel differently about Olicity this season.

I think I'm mostly surprised that Laurel found a new low this season, and now is dragging the others down with her. I honestly didn't think there was any way I would dislike her more this season than in season 2. I figured once Sadsack Laurel was gone, and she stopped the whining, there would have to be an improvement. I thought hey, even if her transition to BC is sloppy (and it has been) the character herself is bound to improve. But apparently Laurel is like a game of limbo. No matter how low I set the bar, she finds a way to wriggle under it, thus ensuring the bar goes lower. It's really hard to believe that the professional writers being paid to write this mess aren't doing it on purpose. I'd like to say there's nowhere to go but up from this point, but I honestly don't know anymore. It's kind of disheartening when I've tried to have a good attitude about her increased role.

I think it's probably because it all happened sort of close together. But it makes sense narratively for Felicity to try to move on given the events of The Calm. I don't have a problem with heroes being interested in her - she's pretty awesome. If I were a guy, I'd probably be into her. She's beautiful, smart, outspoken, witty. If heroes flirting with her became a sort of tongue-in-cheek theme, I'd be fine with that. It's more the execution of it that I find a bit tiresome.

Well, I guess if you count Barry from last season, they're sort of representing her as superhero catnip lol. I never watched Dawson's Creek though, so I can't speak to the comparison. That said, I think if any future heroes are introduced, they need to not be romantically connected to Felicity. But again, I don't blame Felicity - I think that's the EPs writing for story rather than character, and they apparently want her to be the glue holding the superhero world together (I'm fully expecting her to start the JL if they go there.) But that can be accomplished without the romance angle.

True. I could see some people's argument previously that Sara being an assassin wasn't worthy of BC. It fit the Arrow world though, and we saw Sara struggle with the moral dilemma, so I was okay with it. But I could see where Laurel supporters said she had a moral high ground. As far I'm concerned, that's gone now. She killed a man last season - even cops struggle with shootings, but not Laurel. She was going to kill someone in a premeditated manner this season, but Oliver stopped her. Now she's beating people up for vengeance and doing all sorts of things not worthy of her job as an ADA, much less BC. And this really bugs me because even though I never really loved Laurel before, I believed she cared about the law. They're really ripping her morality from her at this point, and I see zero struggle with that. She's just never going to be a character that makes sense, I guess.

I'm not sure if this has come up, but I think I am even more annoyed by Laurel as a lawyer than I am by her as BC. I've pretty much accepted we'll never get BC as she should from the comics. She's going to be a sidekick on level with Roy, more or less, no matter how much she trains. She'll never be Oliver's equal, and it's never going to make sense. If I'm going to keep watching the show, I'm going to have accept she's BC because comics, and her name, and that's it. But we have watched everyone else struggle to balance life and vigilantism. Oliver tried to be a CEO and Arrow and what happened? He lost his company. We've seen Felicity trying to balance her job and her role in Team Arrow, in the premiere and with Ray. If Ray didn't want her on his team so badly, she might have been fired for all the ducking out. We've seen Diggle bring the baby to work. I don't see any such struggle with Laurel. It's really inconsistent writing. She can drink and do drugs at work, but her work doesn't suffer. Her getting fired had to be orchestrated by Blood. It would have been better for her to be fired for blowing a case, really. It would have showed real world consequences. But she got her job back. We've seen her blow it with calling in SWAT in that one episode, but that's it. She can apparently be ADA and train to be Sara all at once. In previous episodes she's abused her power, tried to kill someone, beat people up, etc - no consequences. In this episode, she can illegally threaten people with no consequences. If I don't see her start dropping the ball at work while trying to balance training and impersonating her sister, I'm calling BS. With each episode, I find her willingness to break whatever laws suit her more and more irritating. Sure they're all breaking the law as vigilantes, but she's the only one who swore an oath to uphold the law. Shouldn't there be a moral dilemma presented here? Even Felicity struggled with the moral dilemma briefly - so did Diggle. I'm so annoyed by this.