Agents of Shield compared to other Whedon shows?

[Joe Hellandback]

I have to say whilst I watched the show for the first 5 seasons it lost me after a while, it just didn't put the hook in me as the other Whedon shows have and yet it is arguably more successful than any of them, especially in terms of longevity and eps. Why not?

1. It feels too much like a procedural, it could be NCIS; Paranormal or Criminal Minds; Weirdstuff, the beauty of the other Whedon shows were that we had never seen anything like them before, they were true originals (I know some people compare Angel to Forever Knight but I think they're very different in tone and theme).

2. In other Whedon shows the heroes were always a group of relative outsiders battling the odds, the AoS mob ARE the establishment and sometimes I feel they're not very relatable.

3. Lacks sexiness, we have some very attractive people in the cast but it just doesn't have that same passion and edge as the other shows.  

[swanpride]

??? Agents of Shield isn't a "Whedon" show in the sense you are talking about. He helped to start it, but show runners are his brother and his sister in law.  But to address your points.

1. Have you stopped watching after episode 14? The show hasn't been a procedural for a long, long time. Not only is it telling a continuing story, it also expects the audience to remember details which happened four seasons ago.

2. Again, have you stopped watching early on? We are talking about a ragtag team of spies who constantly fight for what is right against all odss.

3. I am not sure why you consider "sexiness" an important quality for a show, but I guess we also have a very different definition of sex appeal.

Personally I think that the show is superior to the Whedon shows. Because it allows characters to develop, the female characters don't fall into the same three variants Whedon likes so much (the badass, the nerd and, excuse my wording, the whore) and it is way more unpredictable.

[blueray]

1. I'm going to second did you stop watching in season 1?  The show is very serial and each season has one or two long story arcs.  This is also character development over the past 6 seasons. While the show is set in the MCU, they have written their own story and have started to move away from the movies completely. 

2. They aren't the establishment at all. Most of the time they are actually outlaws. Again, halfway through season 1 they stop being like that and are on the run. They have some periods where they are "stable" but never really in charge of a goverment or anything. Last season they were mostly in space or dealing with alien species or time travel.

3. I'm not really sure about this either. As a girl, I will say Mack isn't bad to look at and Fitz has a good accent ;).  I'm sure the girls are good looking to if you are in to that.

As for comparing it to Buffy, May can just kick just as much ass!

Edited September 17, 2019 by blueray

[Joe Hellandback]

18 hours ago, swanpride said:

??? Agents of Shield isn't a "Whedon" show in the sense you are talking about. He helped to start it, but show runners are his brother and his sister in law.  But to address your points.

1. Have you stopped watching after episode 14? The show hasn't been a procedural for a long, long time. Not only is it telling a continuing story, it also expects the audience to remember details which happened four seasons ago.

2. Again, have you stopped watching early on? We are talking about a ragtag team of spies who constantly fight for what is right against all odss.

3. I am not sure why you consider "sexiness" an important quality for a show, but I guess we also have a very different definition of sex appeal.

Personally I think that the show is superior to the Whedon shows. Because it allows characters to develop, the female characters don't fall into the same three variants Whedon likes so much (the badass, the nerd and, excuse my wording, the whore) and it is way more unpredictable.

No I watched all the way to 5 but then just lost enthusiasm. I get the nerd and the badass but who were the whores in Buffy and Angel (outside fanfic)?

10 hours ago, blueray said:

1. I'm going to second did you stop watching in season 1?  The show is very serial and each season has one or two long story arcs.  This is also character development over the past 6 seasons. While the show is set in the MCU, they have written their own story and have started to move away from the movies completely. 

2. They aren't the establishment at all. Most of the time they are actually outlaws. Again, halfway through season 1 they stop being like that and are on the run. They have some periods where they are "stable" but never really in charge of a goverment or anything. Last season they were mostly in space or dealing with alien species or time travel.

3. I'm not really sure about this either. As a girl, I will say Mack isn't bad to look at and Fitz has a good accent ;).  I'm sure the girls are good looking to if you are in to that.

As for comparing it to Buffy, May can just kick just as much ass!

It wasn't the ass-kicking which was the thing, it was emotional resonance, it just lacks that spark.  

[swanpride]

Look, if you don't like the show, that is fine, everyone has their own taste. But claiming that it is an procedural when it is clearly not is just wrong complain. If you can't explain your dislike that is okay too, because sometimes it is difficult to put a finger on what doesn't work about a TV show or movie for someone,

I wasn't talking specifically about Buffy and Angle, I was talking about Whedon's work in general. His basic ideas of female characters are all there in Firefly...you have the badass female, which is very prominent in all of his work, you have the nerd, and you have in this case quite literally the whore, but reframed as companion. The point of this character is largely to undermine old tropes that women who don't behave "acceptable" for society are somehow bad people or deserving of a bad fate, and that sex in general is something dirty and/or questionable.

There is no character who is quite equalling this role in Buffy and Angle, but there is one which fulfils a similar function in Cordelia. While she isn't literally a whore, she is presenting the kind of arrogant, status oriented girl which would normally be on the top of the killing list in a slasher movie. (Buffy herself would be there too, since she used to be a cheerleader).

The type is more obvious in The Avengers though, where Black Widow is wielding her sexuality like a weapon.

One of the things I like about Agents of Shield is that normalises sexuality, while also NOT using it as some sort of weapon. The female characters use charm, but not seduction. I mean, the one time an agent was supposed to seduce someone, said Agent was Ward, and his attempts at "bromancing" someone were hilarious.
 

[Joe Hellandback]

13 hours ago, swanpride said:

Look, if you don't like the show, that is fine, everyone has their own taste. But claiming that it is an procedural when it is clearly not is just wrong complain. If you can't explain your dislike that is okay too, because sometimes it is difficult to put a finger on what doesn't work about a TV show or movie for someone,

I wasn't talking specifically about Buffy and Angle, I was talking about Whedon's work in general. His basic ideas of female characters are all there in Firefly...you have the badass female, which is very prominent in all of his work, you have the nerd, and you have in this case quite literally the whore, but reframed as companion. The point of this character is largely to undermine old tropes that women who don't behave "acceptable" for society are somehow bad people or deserving of a bad fate, and that sex in general is something dirty and/or questionable.

There is no character who is quite equalling this role in Buffy and Angle, but there is one which fulfils a similar function in Cordelia. While she isn't literally a whore, she is presenting the kind of arrogant, status oriented girl which would normally be on the top of the killing list in a slasher movie. (Buffy herself would be there too, since she used to be a cheerleader).

The type is more obvious in The Avengers though, where Black Widow is wielding her sexuality like a weapon.

One of the things I like about Agents of Shield is that normalises sexuality, while also NOT using it as some sort of weapon. The female characters use charm, but not seduction. I mean, the one time an agent was supposed to seduce someone, said Agent was Ward, and his attempts at "bromancing" someone were hilarious.
 

Unfair to Queen C, she does keep getting knocked up by demons though. 

[Raja]

Before Cordelia hooked up with Xander after another life imperil mission I think her social status and probable choice of a date in Sunnydale lines up exactly with Inara going from rube colony to rube colony to grace the local upper class with her presence. After being with Xander and then a failed actress before Angel rolls into town then she became something else.

There were a couple cases of men looking at Skye and her also being into them but by the time she became Daisy all the romantic entanglements were those of Fitzsimmons and Phil and May going beyond the friend zone.

[Joe Hellandback]

8 hours ago, Raja said:

Before Cordelia hooked up with Xander after another life imperil mission I think her social status and probable choice of a date in Sunnydale lines up exactly with Inara going from rube colony to rube colony to grace the local upper class with her presence. After being with Xander and then a failed actress before Angel rolls into town then she became something else.

There were a couple cases of men looking at Skye and her also being into them but by the time she became Daisy all the romantic entanglements were those of Fitzsimmons and Phil and May going beyond the friend zone.

I admit she was willing to prostitute herself to David Nabbit but it's unkind to label her so. 

[Raja]

4 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

I admit she was willing to prostitute herself to David Nabbit but it's unkind to label her so. 

I think that Joss Whedon with Inara and the Actives  had a different take on the morality of sex than you do. I am not labeling Cordelia a prostitute, but being in the same social  high class status in Sunnydale relative to the class that Inara had in the Alliance universe in Firefly until she went under her station with Xander. Only Mal, even after outwardly abandoning his religious faith had a problem with the multiple sexual partners.

In any case on AoS only the Ward/May spies from the same unit  with benefits came close to the Joss Whedon shows sexual ethics

[swanpride]

Yeah, when I use "the whore" I don't mean it unkindly either. It is just that for the longest time in literature and film, women were either categorized as "the Madonna or the whore". That is an actual categorisation which has been used for a while, especially in the discussion of horror movies, which clearly influenced Whedon. Just watch Cabin in the wood, where this categorisation is used (and mocked) too.

Plus, I myself don't have any unkind thoughts towards prostitutes anyway. It is a job like any other in my country, I don't feel the same moral outrage a lot of Americans feel over it. For all I care woman can sleep and enjoy being with as many men as they want, with or without payment.

[Joe Hellandback]

3 hours ago, swanpride said:

Yeah, when I use "the whore" I don't mean it unkindly either. It is just that for the longest time in literature and film, women were either categorized as "the Madonna or the whore". That is an actual categorisation which has been used for a while, especially in the discussion of horror movies, which clearly influenced Whedon. Just watch Cabin in the wood, where this categorisation is used (and mocked) too.

Plus, I myself don't have any unkind thoughts towards prostitutes anyway. It is a job like any other in my country, I don't feel the same moral outrage a lot of Americans feel over it. For all I care woman can sleep and enjoy being with as many men as they want, with or without payment.

And men...?

[swanpride]

The sexuality of men is differently framed. Because the majority of shows and movies are made by men for men, and our society is extremely hypocritical when it comes to the topic.

If I remember correctly the three horror movie tropes which are mocked in "Cabin in the Woods" are the Virgin (which can survive), the Whore, the Jock, the Nerd and the Fool.

[TVSpectator]

Just a random question but can we have a thread where we can just point out what some of us don't like and/or feel is wrong on the show? I agree that this show doesn't feel like a Joss Whedon show. I know that he had some involvement in the early stages but Feige pulled him from the show so he can go work on Age of Ultron. I also noticed that there were a lot of shout-outs to like Buffy and Firefly but they were just shout-outs and/or just out right scene stealing. 

Edit:

I would also say that this show is hard to fit into the MCU as well. It just seems like whatever gets expanded on (like the Sokovia Accords) are either ignored and/or contradicts the movies at some point.  I can't really pin it down but this show feels so off as a Whedon show but also as part of the MCU. 

Edited September 30, 2019 by TVSpectator

[Loandbehold]

There is a thread on "AoS and the MCU" that's currently located lower on the first page of the sub-forum thread listing. Not sure if that meets what you're looking for TVSpectator.

[TVSpectator]

10 hours ago, Loandbehold said:

There is a thread on "AoS and the MCU" that's currently located lower on the first page of the sub-forum thread listing. Not sure if that meets what you're looking for TVSpectator.

I know about that thread but that wasn't what I was explaining. Like do we have a thread that is dedicated to complaints about the show in general? Some other shows have threads that are similar. 

[swanpride]

Are complain threats allowed in this Forum?

[blueray]

Probably if not one is arguing it's okay to have a discussion about the show. There is a thread like that on the Gilmore Girls board discussing unpopular opinions which kind of fits that.