Philip: The Defector, And Then A Question Mark

[Umbelina]

5 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I don't understand that kind of reasoning. If your country is in trouble, there is all the more reason to return in order help it.

If the most important thing in the world were to enjoy and have it comfortable, why wouldn't all soldiees become deserters?

What Elizabeth mostly misses is, besides her children of course, is probably the meaning she had in her life  which is shortly going to reveal as an illusion (although not yet, nobody could see four years ahead). The real question is if she can find a new, real meaning - and not again to fall in the trap of KGB/FSB.          

Except we KNOW exactly the kind of shape her country is in, and will be in.  She will not be able to do much, aside from the fact that Claudia has already told her Coup members, including the head of Directorate S, and the KGB, that Elizabeth and Philip defied their orders so they will both be dead very soon. 

She's human, she will miss all of those "luxury" things that in the USA were simply normal.  Most of my post however was tongue in cheek up there, joking about Elizabeth constantly making a salad, and her TV shampoo commercial luxurious hair.

Assuming they aren't immediately killed though?  Which is SUPER hard for me to imagine!  They may have limited use as far as day to day American life stuff, or as trainers for future embedded spies, but their extreme value is gone, they will be slightly better than cogs in  the wheel, disloyal cogs who disobeyed orders.  I don't see their future, IF they have one, as anything but bleak.

[sistermagpie]

6 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I don't understand that kind of reasoning. If your country is in trouble, there is all the more reason to return in order help it.

 

I do think this will be central to both of them--can they find some way to feel like they're doing something that's helping enough? Even if they can't be sure of how it would succeed?

I mean, we know that both of them are capable are living through hardship. Elizabeth seems to be prepared to consider it a virtue in itself and while Philip doesn't think that, he also seems to think it's just life. You get used to it.

I was thinking more about this recently because I've been rewatching Mutually Assured Destruction. Like so many S1 eps it's got a lot of parallels in S1. But watching it now, knowing just how much--or how little--we'll learn about Philip's past, I really wondered about his psychology again. Like the most fundamental family dynamic stuff. The deprivation is part of it, but I felt like there's just more things here where we see Philip being fundamentally different from Claudia and Elizabeth and I really wished we'd gotten more of a peek behind that curtain. 

[Roseanna]

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Except we KNOW exactly the kind of shape her country is in, and will be in.  

But Elizabeth and Philip didn't know. And one can never know beforehand.

During the Nazi occupation many Estonians fled to Finland and fought in the Finnish army during the Continuation War. When Finland made a peace with the Soviet Union in September 1944, some of them decided to return home in order to try to regain independence. This decision has been wondered in the light of the outcome. One of them, Ilmar Talve, wrote in his memoirs that at the time they knew only that there was fighting in Estonia and help was needed. So failing to return would have "shown indifference and been also a sign of abandoning the country: unfortunately, but try to survive without me! For those who left it also meant maintaining dignity and pure conscience. " Before we can never know whether the situation is completely hopeless, Talve recalls: "We certainly had to try, then we will see how it is doing. Then there is no need to repent afterwards that one did not do what was still possible."

Later, as a refugee in Sweden, Existentialism taught Talve that "Man was not a prisoner of his own situation" but was free. Every situation was a chance to choose. "The struggle, even the lost battle, was a positive thing in the absurd world as well, it was the only chance for man and the foundation of his life. Choice, Responsibility and Freedom. "

[Umbelina]

Yes, but we were talking about how Philip and Elizabeth, used to ease and plenty, would feel about their country now that they actually had to live in that mess, and we know, that as bad as it is now, (something they seemed to be in denial about) it's about to get even worse.

So, their feelings, should they still be alive, which I sincerely doubt, will change IMO.

[sistermagpie]

21 hours ago, Umbelina said:

They may have limited use as far as day to day American life stuff, or as trainers for future embedded spies, but their extreme value is gone, they will be slightly better than cogs in  the wheel, disloyal cogs who disobeyed orders.  I don't see their future, IF they have one, as anything but bleak.

The translator on the show actually thought they'd be super valuable in the post-Soviet USSR fwiw.

[Umbelina]

4 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

The translator on the show actually thought they'd be super valuable in the post-Soviet USSR fwiw.

except for the whole "they will be dead" thing...

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

except for the whole "they will be dead" thing...

LOL. I almost did add "if they survive that long..."

[Roseanna]

On ‎1‎.‎12‎.‎2018 at 12:14 AM, Umbelina said:

Yes, but we were talking about how Philip and Elizabeth, used to ease and plenty, would feel about their country now that they actually had to live in that mess, and we know, that as bad as it is now, (something they seemed to be in denial about) it's about to get even worse.

So, their feelings, should they still be alive, which I sincerely doubt, will change IMO.

My experience is just the opposite: people who have used to "ease and plenty" can give them up if they want something that is more important to them whereas people who never have had them concentrate wholly to get them. Of course it depends also on characters.

I think it's also important that decide that once the decision is made, to make best of it.       

[CherithCutestory]

The USSR obviously didn't have the plenty of the US although by the 80s it was nothing like it had been when Elizabeth and Philip were kids. And Russia post-breakup in the 90s went through terrible trauma with not enough food and inflation. But I think the horrors of having to live in Russia over the USA is being seriously exaggerated. There were many worse places to be in the world. Philip can even get McDonald's there. And Elizabeth and Philip are in a much better position than most to make it through the turmoil. They have marketable skills (even if Elizabeth would vomit at the marketable aspect) such as very fluent English. They also know how market economies work. They can open a wig company!

I'm sure Elizabeth will be devastated by the fall. But she's not the hard liner she was.

On 12/1/2018 at 4:08 PM, Umbelina said:

except for the whole "they will be dead" thing...

If the Centre was going to kill them they wouldn't have bothered to bring them to Moscow (where Gorbachev's people are much more likely to learn about it) to do it. How do you explain to the head of your country that you executed spies for saving his life? They would have done it in the US or Canada where Gorbachev is much less likely to have moles and access to information.

They picked the winning side. Once they made it out of the US the chances that they will be killed are next to zero.

Do I think they have a bright future? Absolutely not. They left their children behind and will never get over that. They have no life in Russia anymore. The USSR is about to fall. But their curse is that they have to live with the decisions they made for the rest of their lives. They have to live in the place they served for decades and have it be a foreign place. It's not the blessing of a quick death.

They'll survive because that's what they do. They'll adapt because that's what they do.

Edited December 21, 2018 by CherithCutestory

[Roseanna]

Rewatching, I wonder if Philip bought that fancy car not because he enjoyed the American luxury but as a way to cope with the murder of an innocent bystander that he had done in the previous episode.

[Roseanna]

17 hours ago, CherithCutestory said:

The USSR obviously didn't have the plenty of the US although by the 80s it was nothing like it had been when Elizabeth and Philip were kids. And Russia post-breakup in the 90s went through terrible trauma with not enough food and inflation. But I think the horrors of having to live in Russia over the USA is being seriously exaggerated. There were many worse places to be in the world. Philip can even get McDonald's there. And Elizabeth and Philip are in a much better position than most to make it through the turmoil. They have marketable skills (even if Elizabeth would vomit at the marketable aspect) such as very fluent English. They also know how market economies work. They can open a wig company!

I'm sure Elizabeth will be devastated by the fall. But she's not the hard liner she was.

- - -

Do I think they have a bright future? Absolutely not. They left their children behind and will never get over that. They have no life in Russia anymore. The USSR is about to fall. But their curse is that they have to live with the decisions they made for the rest of their lives. They have to live in the place they served for decades and have it be a foreign place. It's not the blessing of a quick death.

They'll survive because that's what they do. They'll adapt because that's what they do.

 

I also think that it's an exaggeration to say that P&E's life in Russia would be sheer misery. They have far, far better startings points than millions of refugees of whom many flee to the country of which they don't know practically nothing and whose language they can't speak.

Like I said with Martha, it's elemental that one accepts the facts ("now I am here and can't go back") and decides to make best of them.

No doubt it's hard not to see their children again. But at least they are alive. Even those who have lost children in the war survive if they want to.

The hardest thing probably is to see when the Cause they have served so long disappear. But even that isn't so seldom. People can start their life again and find a new meaning. 

Edited December 22, 2018 by Roseanna
correcting to make it more understandable

[sistermagpie]

Talking about Martha in another thread I brought up the scene where Martha asks Philip his name, revealing that she understands he's an Illegal. I went back and watched the moment again and found it even more intense given Philip's arc for the whole series.

Philip and Elizabeth have always seemed kind of parallel in the way that she evolves to accept the parts of herself that came later as part of who she is--she would prefer to hang onto the young woman she was when she took the job, untouched by life in the US and family life etc., but ultimately that is part of her now and she can't go back.

Philip's journey, otoh, sends him backwards for authenticity. He starts the show thinking he could just "become" the role he's playing for real, but that would involve cutting himself off from parts of himself that are actually him. He wouldn't really have had Elizabeth that way. Even the version of that he tries in S6 requires him trying to cut himself off from things that are important to him because he thinks it's the only way he can keep away from the stuff he doesn't like. Philip never gets a ton of explanation about the details of his past, but it's in later seasons that they play a bigger part in his life.

So in this scene with Martha, I've always disagreed with an interpretation of seen where people think it's significant that when Martha asks Philip his name he says Philip, as if he's "forgotten" his real real name. But that never rang true at all for me--of course he would say that. He's been trained to think of himself as only that in the US. Even Elizabeth when giving her "real name" to Betty says Elizabeth before revealing she's from Russia. For all intents and purposes Philip and Elizabeth are their real names. Those are the names that link them to their actual life and family.

Watching it now, though, the scene seemed even more meaningful in a quiet way. Philip arrives and sees Martha's hurt (Elizabeth socked her to get her out of the park) and she says she's fine, then stands up and regards him for a long moment and says, "What's your name?" Philip slumps a little and sighs, like he feels the guilty hit and decides to give her the truth and says, "Philip." Martha shakes her head and says, "the name you were born with." Philip looks surprised, caught of guard, obviously. Where his "Philip" was a surrender and a show of respect for her because he was giving her the truth, "Mikhail" is said more like the simple answer to a question he wasn't expecting. Then he adds "But everyone called me Mischa." It's been discussed how the show tends to stick to Elizabeth's full name while Philip gets the shorter version, but in this case given his relationship with Martha she would use the familiar form if she used his name. Also the "but everyone called me" links the name more strongly to his past and his memories--as a child, especially, he would no doubt have been usually called by the short form, and he was pretty young when he started his training anyway. That's the person he started out as.

Martha continues to look at him directly and says, "Mischa." He drops his eyes after a moment, looks away, then says he'll go get some ice.

The camera, btw, goes into a tighter close up on Martha and then Philip for the name you were born with/Mikhail, but everyone called me Mischa/Mischa and then pulls back out again.

So watching it now it just seemed like that was a great moment, particularly Martha asking for "the name he was born with" and then looking at him and saying it. Like in that moment this person (this victim) is looking at him and acknowledging that he has done this. Mischa, the same person he was back when he was himself. She took away the last cover identity and just acknowledged him, regarded him, as himself, if that makes sense. He didn't even get to hide behind the more formal version of the name as a stranger might address him. I don't think that's the reason Martha's doing it, but it seems like it would be a powerful moment, one the MR doesn't overplay because I don't think Philip would be fully reacting to it on that level.

Given Philip's continued, growing understanding that "we do this" it seems like a meaningful moment. Or even that she thought to ask about that other self on its own terms.

[Roseanna]

4 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Watching it now, though, the scene seemed even more meaningful in a quiet way. Philip arrives and sees Martha's hurt (Elizabeth socked her to get her out of the park) and she says she's fine, then stands up and regards him for a long moment and says, "What's your name?" Philip slumps a little and sighs, like he feels the guilty hit and decides to give her the truth and says, "Philip." Martha shakes her head and says, "the name you were born with." Philip looks surprised, caught of guard, obviously. Where his "Philip" was a surrender and a show of respect for her because he was giving her the truth, "Mikhail" is said more like the simple answer to a question he wasn't expecting. Then he adds "But everyone called me Mischa." It's been discussed how the show tends to stick to Elizabeth's full name while Philip gets the shorter version, but in this case given his relationship with Martha she would use the familiar form if she used his name. Also the "but everyone called me" links the name more strongly to his past and his memories--as a child, especially, he would no doubt have been usually called by the short form, and he was pretty young when he started his training anyway. That's the person he started out as.

The writers have probably made the Russian use of names a little easier. Irl not "everyone" used the same first name but there were several forms of it, depending on the person's age, persons' nearness and the situation. Friends probably would use "Mischa" but those who don't like him or wanted to scold him "Mischka" (with k), whereas Mom would cosset him with "Mischenka".

As for Elizabeth, I think it's supposed to underline the character of Elizabeth's Mom that she didn't have a pet name for her daughter. Obviously she had no friends, either. Although we don't know if Philip had. 

[CherithCutestory]

10 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Philip and Elizabeth have always seemed kind of parallel in the way that she evolves to accept the parts of herself that came later as part of who she is--she would prefer to hang onto the young woman she was when she took the job, untouched by life in the US and family life etc., but ultimately that is part of her now and she can't go back.

Philip's journey, otoh, sends him backwards for authenticity. He starts the show thinking he could just "become" the role he's playing for real, but that would involve cutting himself off from parts of himself that are actually him.

Agreed. And a scene that demonstrates this is when Paige asks where the names Elizabeth and Philip Jennings come from. She then asks if they feel like their real names now. Elizabeth answers yes with no qualifications. Philip says yes but he misses his old name too.

[sistermagpie]

8 hours ago, Roseanna said:

The writers have probably made the Russian use of names a little easier. Irl not "everyone" used the same first name but there were several forms of it, depending on the person's age, persons' nearness and the situation. Friends probably would use "Mischa" but those who don't like him or wanted to scold him "Mischka" (with k), whereas Mom would cosset him with "Mischenka".

I assumed he was using the phrasing she'd expect as an American. "Everyone calls me" for English speakers usually means the name they go by in general, which isn't strictly the case here, but I think it was his way of telling her that she would call him that without getting into exactly why. It's like saying "Mikhail, but my friends call me..." But that phrasing of it also can't help but make it more of a memory. He's not just giving her his name, he's linking it to actually living with that name--it's not just the name on his birth certificate. Iirc, the times we hear the name used in his flashbacks Irina uses Mischa and Mischka (jokingly) with a k and the bullies call him Miha and Mishchenka sarcastically.

Again it's rather fitting that Elizabeth has one Russian name that we hear used for her almost exclusively. Even her mother uses it most times I remember. With Philip we get no fewer than 5 versions. (He's also the only person in the family that ever uses a short form of his English name, Phil.)

 

2 hours ago, CherithCutestory said:

Agreed. And a scene that demonstrates this is when Paige asks where the names Elizabeth and Philip Jennings come from. She then asks if they feel like their real names now. Elizabeth answers yes with no qualifications. Philip says yes but he misses his old name too.

Yes, I thought that was interesting that he was the one to say that. I think with Philip it's also often hard to pin down exactly how he thinks about his past because he doesn't have a set way to speak about it the way Elizabeth does. Like when she talks about her past she has a meaning attached to what she's saying. When it comes to things that are more troubling--like the memory of her mother saying her father was shot as a deserter--she doesn't speak of it. Even his flashbacks are more purely sensory for the viewer even if it turns out Philip was puzzling over some specific thing, like why his father would have an extra pair of bloody shoes to bring home.

[marihunc]

13 hours ago, Roseanna said:

As for Elizabeth, I think it's supposed to underline the character of Elizabeth's Mom that she didn't have a pet name for her daughter.

Actually, she did. When they met in Germany, she called her Nadinka.

[Roseanna]

On ‎19‎.‎8‎.‎2018 at 4:58 AM, Umbelina said:

You don't have to ERASE your past to be happy in the present though.  You can accept it, as something that happened to you, and MOVE ON.  Now that you are an adult, you can make choices for yourself.

Only Philip can't, because the KGB owns him.  The big answer that I keep coming back to is that he's only owned because of his "love" for Elizabeth, and because she refuses to even consider leaving the KGB.

Of course he's always on guard, he spent YEARS training to always be on guard, so I wouldn't just put that on his childhood.  He's a spy, undercover, in enemy territory, being on guard is how he stays alive and out of prison.

Now, then there is the other question about WHY he loves you.  I've seen you say admiration for her, and wanting to be like her.

Nah, I don't think he admires her ability to kill and honeytrap, and I certainly don't think he wants to be LIKE her anymore than he already is through training.  I think it's because she's the only woman in 20 plus years he's been allowed to be real with, and even then?  Not really, until "My name was Nadezhdah."

Had Philip had a "Gregory?"  Let's call her Gwen.  This can be a Gwen.  

(had to gets someone who is as cute as Elizabeth, with hair too, ha, I needed a visual)

If Philip had an honest, loving, open relationship with Gwen, who shared his point of view, his goals, his humor, great sex, whom he admired, and trusted for 15 years would he have still loved Elizabeth?  Maybe, Elizabeth is incredibly beautiful, but I really don't think he would have.  He would love the one who loved him, shared his life, and that he could be Misha or Philip with. 

Sharing goals of course, he probably would have defected long ago, maybe even before Elizabeth deigned to have sex with him in order to become pregnant ala KGB orders.  Maybe that's when Gwen and Philip would have made their escape, before kids, or maybe Gwen would be pregnant and that would make Philip want to protect his child and get the hell out of the KGB.

I think loving Elizabeth was about the situation and her beauty, it wasn't about her really, she was his ONLY option.  Being able to not lie would be an amazing love potion, if that's all your life was, lies, lies, and more lies.  That's one reason Elizabeth was in love with Gregory for so long.

Because of who Elizabeth was, Gregory pretty much had to be a dedicated soviet convert willing to do anything it takes to make the world a better place, according to KGB orders.

Because of who Philip is, Gwen would not have to be those things, she could be supportive, open minded, fun, love line dancing, and willing to be Philp's true partner in any way he needed.  She would want a family, and she would do anything for that family, and for her husband.  Why?  Because that's who Philip really was, it's what he cared about, it's what he would give in return.

Philip never had his Gwen though.  All he had was Elizabeth.  So now, no family, no USA that he loved, but he will get the cold.

 

On ‎19‎.‎8‎.‎2018 at 8:58 PM, sistermagpie said:

Exactly--I think that's what Philip is doing. He's learning to make choices for himself and in order to do that he has to understand how he's been making choices in the past. I think by the end of the show he has moved on from the person he was at the start, and the person he was as a kid. Everybody starts their choices with the person they are and the situation they're in. They can only make choices with in those limits. Philip loves Elizabeth and that's one of the things that influences the choices he freely makes.

Elizabeth found someone with whom she didn't lie. Claudia admitted that she told the truth to somebody. Philip wound up telling some truth to Martha.

Just saying that while it was difficult for Philip to find somebody else it wasn't actually impossible. There were plenty of women in America he could have potentially met and who would have loved him despite finding out he was KGB, and covered for him, and happily defected with him. Even with slim pickings in those circumstances he could have found another choice other than Elizabeth. Either due to really bad luck or his personality, it seems he never found that or even seemed to need it much, despite having experienced a normal relationship with Irina who pushed him into a different life. For whatever reason, Philip was still pretty happily owning his choice of Elizabeth up until the end along with mourning the situation his choices led him to. I think that was also part of what the show wanted to say with the Martha story. Elizabeth lays that out hypothetically just as clearly as in the conversation with William. (Would he choose a life with a woman with those values and no spying if the kids weren't an issue.)

There are men who want to leave the past behind them. When they return from the war, they don't marry f.ex. a nurse of their own age who had treated the wounded but a younger woman who has no experience of the life's harship. They either don't want to talk about the war at all or talk about it only with their war comrades because "only those who have experienced it, can understand". Or, if the return from the camp, they abandon their wife who has faithfully waited for them losing her looks, and marry another.

As for Philip, he obviously was of different sort. Just as Gadi Becker in The Little Drummer Girl.

Philip could be completely honest only with Elizabeth who had grown up in the USSR and with whom he had shared all in the US. Only she could support him because they so seldom needed words to explain things. Even when they disagreed politically, he admired her dedication while also being worried how she burned herself out. And their love-making had special tenderness which lacked in his mechanical performances in honey-trapping cases.

I wonder how any American woman could have "supported" Philip. Most likely, there would be reactions like Paige had even in ordinary matters: "How could you eat same food several days" when actually it was a reason to be thankful as often there was no food except a rationed dose of bread.

And what kind of woman would have wanted marry a man who had killed two boys when he was ten years old and several since? Well, some women send letter to serial killers in prison.

[sistermagpie]

5 hours ago, Roseanna said:

There are men who want to leave the past behind them. When they return from the war, they don't marry f.ex. a nurse of their own age who had treated the wounded but a younger woman who has no experience of the life's harship. They either don't want to talk about the war at all or talk about it only with their war comrades because "only those who have experienced it, can understand". Or, if the return from the camp, they abandon their wife who has faithfully waited for them losing her looks, and marry another.

It often seemed to me that even Philip didn't realize how much he needed to be whole until he and Elizabeth truly got together. At the start of the show he thinks he could just "be" his cover personality. He'd have been satisfied with the kids and the comfort he felt with Elizabeth. But when they actually get together for real they have a dramatic effect on each other that makes it safe or each one to accept the parts of themselves they had cut off before. At the start of the show they are still acting as the kids they were in their most traumatic moments.

Elizabeth had a Gregory who shared all of her stated goals and values, and part of that was that he agreed with her that her feelings for her family weren't a core part of who she was. But ultimately that relationship wasn't enough. She really was more fully understood and accepted by Philip. Likewise it seems like it was being with Elizabeth for real that made Philip able to look at other parts of himself (I think he describes EST as making him think about parts of himself he hadn't thought about before). I think with her he can make sense of both sides of his personality. Not only was he not tempted by Martha, the American woman who was willing to accept him being a murderous KGB agent who lied, but he wasn't tempted by Irina the fellow Russian KGB agent who knew him before and with whom he had a child and also wanted to live a real life, if only for a short time.

Even in S6 their marriage is the safe space in their lives. Philip knows how terrible Elizabeth has become but understands it enough to confront it and still trust her in the end. He's the path she ultimately follows to get back to herself. And vice versa, really. His ordinary life crashes around him but doing what he thinks Elizabeth would do feels right.

At the start of the show they already basically center each other. They already protect and rely on each other. By the end of the show they're still doing those things, but have a clearer understanding of what they're protecting/relying on each other for, with a deeper understanding of their and the other person's whole self, if that makes sense.

[Umbelina]

12 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Philip could be completely honest only with Elizabeth who had grown up in the USSR and with whom he had shared all in the US. Only she could support him because they so seldom needed words to explain things. Even when they disagreed politically, he admired her dedication while also being worried how she burned herself out. And their love-making had special tenderness which lacked in his mechanical performances in honey-trapping cases.

Because of the KGB, as I said above.  He was trapped, and Elizabeth was the only option he had for ANY kind of honesty.  Had he defected, eventually he could have found that closeness with someone else, allowing him to live a life he WANTED, instead of being forced into one he hated.

He couldn't see the forest for the trees, because he was love sick, addicted by time and circumstance and beauty.  Pitiful.

12 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I wonder how any American woman could have "supported" Philip. Most likely, there would be reactions like Paige had even in ordinary matters: "How could you eat same food several days" when actually it was a reason to be thankful as often there was no food except a rationed dose of bread.

And what kind of woman would have wanted marry a man who had killed two boys when he was ten years old and several since? Well, some women send letter to serial killers in prison.

Many.  he didn't murder for fun or because he was insane like killers in prison.  He was a soldier, conscripted and indoctrinated at a young age into believing he was saving the world.

Additionally, in the USA, political beliefs and groups come in all sizes, many American women would understand and sympathize with his beliefs and former hopes. 

12 hours ago, Roseanna said:

There are men who want to leave the past behind them. When they return from the war, they don't marry f.ex. a nurse of their own age who had treated the wounded but a younger woman who has no experience of the life's harship. They either don't want to talk about the war at all or talk about it only with their war comrades because "only those who have experienced it, can understand". Or, if the return from the camp, they abandon their wife who has faithfully waited for them losing her looks, and marry another.

As for Philip, he obviously was of different sort. Just as Gadi Becker in The Little Drummer Girl.

I already said in that post that he didn't have to leave it behind, he could have had real therapy to deal with the traumas of being raised in a concentration camp gulag town, and of losing his father, and of being made a KGB agent.  Philip obviously WANTED to talk and to deal with it all, that's why he chose EST, that's why he tried to talk to Elizabeth, and actually nearly told both Martha and Stan's wife.  He was desperate to talk about it, and deal with it all, but as usual, everything was all about Elizabeth.

5 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Even in S6 their marriage is the safe space in their lives. Philip knows how terrible Elizabeth has become but understands it enough to confront it and still trust her in the end. He's the path she ultimately follows to get back to herself. And vice versa, really. His ordinary life crashes around him but doing what he thinks Elizabeth would do feels right.

At the start of the show they already basically center each other. They already protect and rely on each other. By the end of the show they're still doing those things, but have a clearer understanding of what they're protecting/relying on each other for, with a deeper understanding of their and the other person's whole self, if that makes sense.

Again though, this was, at least in part, because he had no other options.  The KGB, and his fanatical wife, mother of his children, removed all options in his mind.  He was completely trapped, which is why, in no way can I ever see this as some great "love" story.  It wasn't.  He was too weak or addicted to someone to find a life he would love.  Pathetic really, and had he been a woman, we would be talking about this more. 

There are thousands of books out there for women about leaving toxic relationships.  There were even back in the eighties.  I wish Philip had read a few, because he would have seen himself. 

We have spent lots of energy seeing things from the KGB point of view, it's too bad a bit wasn't also spent on the gender issues in that horrible one-sided marriage.

Edited December 28, 2018 by Umbelina

[Roseanna]

9 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Because of the KGB, as I said above.  He was trapped, and Elizabeth was the only option he had for ANY kind of honesty.  Had he defected, eventually he could have found that closeness with someone else, allowing him to live a life he WANTED, instead of being forced into one he hated.

He couldn't see the forest for the trees, because he was love sick, addicted by time and circumstance and beauty.  Pitiful.

Many.  he didn't murder for fun or because he was insane like killers in prison.  He was a soldier, conscripted and indoctrinated at a young age into believing he was saving the world.

Additionally, in the USA, political beliefs and groups come in all sizes, many American women would understand and sympathize with his beliefs and former hopes. 

I already said in that post that he didn't have to leave it behind, he could have had real therapy to deal with the traumas of being raised in a concentration camp gulag town, and of losing his father, and of being made a KGB agent.  Philip obviously WANTED to talk and to deal with it all, that's why he chose EST, that's why he tried to talk to Elizabeth, and actually nearly told both Martha and Stan's wife.  He was desperate to talk about it, and deal with it all, but as usual, everything was all about Elizabeth.

Again though, this was, at least in part, because he had no other options.  The KGB, and his fanatical wife, mother of his children, removed all options in his mind.  He was completely trapped, which is why, in no way can I ever see this as some great "love" story.  It wasn't.  He was too weak or addicted to someone to find a life he would love.  Pathetic really, and had he been a woman, we would be talking about this more. 

There are thousands of books out there for women about leaving toxic relationships.  There were even back in the eighties.  I wish Philip had read a few, because he would have seen himself. 

We have spent lots of energy seeing things from the KGB point of view, it's too bad a bit wasn't also spent on the gender issues in that horrible one-sided marriage.

I don't believe that Philip had no options. He was in the certain difficult situation but that's true in most cases. Even in the Soviet camp one could choose whether to become an informer or not. 

I don't think Philip "nearly told" Martha and Sandra. That would have endanged him and his family and Philip wasn't stupid. Most of all, he knew full well that neither had qualifications to understand him.

In the show there was indeed a person unable to leave the toxic relationship: Martha who sacrificed all for "love". But even if Philip skillfully manipulated her, she still made choices herself.

Instead, Philip didn't accept anything from Elizabeth. He left her in S1 and spied on her in S6. Actually, the only time Elizabeth manipulated him was her plan to kidnap Kimmy, but just that failed which clearly showed that Philip had before made choices himself.  

[CherithCutestory]

On 12/28/2018 at 5:40 PM, Umbelina said:

Because of the KGB, as I said above.  He was trapped, and Elizabeth was the only option he had for ANY kind of honesty.  Had he defected, eventually he could have found that closeness with someone else, allowing him to live a life he WANTED, instead of being forced into one he hated.

 

Philip wasn't forced into anything. He chose the life just like her. When he couldn't take that life anymore Elizabeth told him he should stop. He tried to push back and say no. She wouldn't let him keep up a life he hates for her. And he spent three years not doing it. No way he would have been allowed to live in the US not working for the KGB if they didn't risk pissing off Elizabeth if they tried to kill him. And Philip didn't want to defect after the first episode. Heck, he didn't even suggest leaving the fifth season. ELIZABETH is the one who had enough and wanted out. 

Nobody forced this on him. Elizabeth, in fact, practically forced him to stop living a life he hated. And took on a huge burden of doing the workload of two all by herself so that it nearly destroyed  let her. I don't think it's possible to watch the first montage of her working in season 6 (mission after mission her body language showing how worn down and empty she is) and think that marriage is all one-sided. After telling Tuan how difficult this business is without a partner she did so out of love for him and his well-being. 

Toxic relationships don't involve one partner destroying little pieces of their soul day after day so her husband won't have to destroy his. 

In the last season, she changed her entire world view in a day for him.  Sure, there were a lot of factors that went into her defection but she would never have got there in such little time if she didn't hate herself for disappointing him. 

And there are plenty of times when Philip makes the major decisions in that family and she goes a long with it. He thinks they should get someone completely inexperienced to cover Yousef and, despite some initial hesitance because of how dumb that is, Elizabeth goes a long with it then shows up to break bones and stuff that woman in a suitcase when it all predictably fails. He thinks she should go see her mom and take Paige despite the KGB? Despite her reluctance to defy their bosses she goes. He wants to murder an innocent man to protect the worthless Martha? Elizabeth goes a long and keeps her alive even when it put them all at risk. He wants to leave Henry? Elizabeth agrees. Elizabeth has to beg him to call Henry one last time. It's clear his word is the final one on that. 

Even in the very first episode, when they aren't a real couple, in the end Elizabeth tells him to do whatever he wants with Timoshev and walked away. If he wanted to defect she was going to let him. He kills Timoshev instead. In the same episode, Elizabeth has her rapist in her garage, she tells Philip she thinks they should just kill him. He says no. They don't until he does. ("I almost did it myself this morning but I thought you'd be pissed.") He gets his way all the time. 

Obviously lots of examples of Elizabeth getting her way too. But it's hardly on sided. 

Edited December 29, 2018 by CherithCutestory

[Umbelina]

He was NEVER "out."  Not for a moment.  Because of his sick devotion to Elizabeth, he not only had to maintain her cover, but also had to watch his daughter be conscripted into that dark life.  He had to stay at the Travel Agency, his "true love" constantly was endangered by her job to the KGB, and he was still running Kimmy.

True he wasn't doing the day to day operations, but saying he was out is disingenuous at best.

Out would mean no KGB in his home, it would mean choosing his own job, and not constantly worrying about his "true love" and her job (hey!  maybe she'd even speak to him!)  or his daughter.  If he was "out" he would have never had to escape back to the crumbling USSR, full of powerful people in the KGB, the military, and the politicals, who want him dead.

Elizabeth wanted things HER way, always, even knowing how much Philip was torn apart by it all.  She never considered "doing it his way" and leaving the KGB, not once.  That's fine, she was a steadfast soldier in a hopeless war, and her country mattered far more to her than her husband or family.  I don't blame Elizabeth for not loving Philip enough to do what he did, sacrifice for the spouse, but I recognize it.

Philip was the best possible choice for Elizabeth.

Elizabeth was the worst possible choice for Philip.

[sistermagpie]

On 12/28/2018 at 5:40 PM, Umbelina said:

Again though, this was, at least in part, because he had no other options.  The KGB, and his fanatical wife, mother of his children, removed all options in his mind.  He was completely trapped, which is why, in no way can I ever see this as some great "love" story.  It wasn't.  He was too weak or addicted to someone to find a life he would love.  Pathetic really, and had he been a woman, we would be talking about this more. 

To me it seems like if it removed all the options in his mind it's because he just didn't care for the other options. In S6, especially, Philip doesn't seem like someone who's being poisoned by a toxic relationship. It seems more to me like Elizabeth is in a toxic situation which, granted, is making her lash out at him, but he's quite clear-headed enough by then to pull her out of it and make better choices. There's a couple of times when he's in danger of taking wrong turns himself, but he's able to snap out of it himself and get his head back on straight. Of course he also hates that Paige is walking into quicksand, but she's an arrogant, stubborn adult making her own choices.

Whether or not he could have found someone to fully understand him if he'd defected, that seems very unlikely to me in part just because it's a really hard thing to do for anyone even in regular situations. I don't doubt there are American women who could understand things about him--I don't think the PTSD or the murder would be a dealbreaker. But I don't think they'd relate to everything. I know the situation raises the possibility that Philip simply imprinted on the woman he was paired with and it could have been anyone, but I really do see reasons why Philip genuinely loves this damaged woman in ways he wouldn't have just loved anybody. That is, I think he would have probably loved whatever woman he was paired with and raised children with on some level, but I think Elizabeth really does give him back more than he might have gotten from anyone else. I honestly think her craziness and hardness is a relief for him. He could have loved someone else, but I don't think he'd have had the same connection to them. A lot of things people think are the worst about Elizabeth for Philip I think are actually good for him.

Of course, if he had defected that would add a whole other pile of psychological stuff to him that would have imo made it even harder. He'd be living a lie in witness protection and imo he'd be even more miserable than he was in S6 when he was trying to walk away from everything without actually betraying it. I think Philip the defector would have been in far worse shape in ways neither his kids or any loving wife could begin to understand. I think defecting would have represented the opposite direction of therapy. If he'd defected he wouldn't have wanted to know himself so honestly.

 

3 hours ago, CherithCutestory said:

Philip wasn't forced into anything. He chose the life just like her. When he couldn't take that life anymore Elizabeth told him he should stop. He tried to push back and say no. She wouldn't let him keep up a life he hates for her. And he spent three years not doing it. No way he would have been allowed to live in the US not working for the KGB if they didn't risk pissing off Elizabeth if they tried to kill him. And Philip didn't want to defect after the first episode. Heck, he didn't even suggest leaving the fifth season. ELIZABETH is the one who had enough and wanted out. 

 

The details of how that choice was set up always seem significant to me as well. Philip and Elizabeth were going to go back to the USSR with the kids as a family. Philip could have chosen to do that on his own or with the kids if Elizabeth didn't want to go back. But it wasn't just a case of Elizabeth wanting to work. Things changed when he heard the tape from Kimmy's father. He had every chance to throw it away and pretend he never heard that Breland was going to be head of the Soviet Division. He was standing on the edge of the water ready to do it all by himself. He could probably have gotten away with it. Instead he took it to Elizabeth knowing that she would tell him it was his duty to stay and she did. He kept working Kimmy all those years he was retired. He probably knew very well that Elizabeth would not be able to walk away from that source, but the fact is he couldn't walk away from it either. I didn't honestly see any hint that he resented Elizabeth because she didn't want to destroy the tape. That scene didn't at all play to me as Elizabeth failing any test of loyalty or love in Philip's mind--and it very easily could have been that for another person.

The show did not choose to set up a situation where it was *Elizabeth* who suddenly got a juicy new source she couldn't leave--or that she could use as an excuse to continue working. (Personally I always truly thought Elizabeth was very insecure about her ability to be a regular person and wife.) There were plot points for placing Kimmy in that position, sure, but it didn't have to be that that made them stay. The show, imo, wanted them both to be conflicted about it--Elizabeth couldn't bring herself to just yank retirement completely away from Philip when it was so close, but Philip also couldn't bring himself to just toss away (literally) a source that would obviously be important for his own retirement. The values they have in that scene are played out in S6.

In a way it's like the flipside of the separation in S1. In that season Elizabeth wants to retreat from the romance, but keep the marriage, using their cover as an excuse. Philip says she doesn't have to be married, so they separate and don't get back together until she chooses to end it. Here Philip was ready to continue spying because he said Elizabeth needed him and she said no, you don't have to continue. So he retired--but later chose himself to spy on his own terms. He couldn't say he was doing it because Elizabeth needed it or demanded it since he was spying on her. To me it seems central to understanding Philip that it *isn't* all about Elizabeth. If it was he would have gotten Kimmy to Bulgaria and just told her about Oleg.

There's times on the show where both Philip and Elizabeth draw lines in the sand about what they demand of the other person and when it comes to loyalty to the Cause for Elizabeth, she doesn't demand Philip be loyal to the KGB like she is. She willingly suggests he retire. She's angry and contemptuous in S6, but I think it's made explicit that this is masking a sadness at feeling abandoned and alone and overwhelmed. She's gotten herself to the point where Philip was in S5, but being Elizabeth (especially in her current state) she can't give up because that's not who she is.

She *can* make a deal with Philip to do the thing with Kimmy because that's coming from a place of strength--she just needs him to do this one thing for her plan. She can also heap scorn on him for not doing it or asking she stay home on Thanksgiving. There again she's keeping the facade of handling it all. But she can't bring herself to honestly admit that she can't do this and needs him, just as he predicted back when she gave him his limited freedom. Philip offers to help with Harvest without her asking, just as she offered retirement. And even after Harvest she's ready to write it off as a one-time thing that won't happen again and she'll go right back on her own. That's when Philip brushes off the idea--is that where he says their separate lives aren't working? And anyway he's up to his neck in it already because hey, he's spying with a contact from the USSR. She's mighty pissed...but also can easily tell him to take the meet with Father Andre.

She probably couldn't love a Philip who honestly didn't care about anything but his own creature comforts--but that's fine because that's not who Philip is. He doesn't love that guy either. Likewise I don't think Philip could love her if she didn't love their children. And in S6 there's plenty of superficial signs that she doesn't, since she's turning Paige into cannon fodder and estranged from Henry. But she does actually love them.

Edited December 30, 2018 by sistermagpie

[CherithCutestory]

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

but also had to watch his daughter be conscripted into that dark life.

 I love the idea of Philip as some victim in the Paige stuff. He is the one who told her first. He's the one who told her she had to still be close to Pastor Tim. He's the one who wanted to tell her about the wheat being poisoned and he never corrected it when they found out it wasn't being poisoned. Elizabeth went behind his back exactly once when she told her about Gregory. She then apologized and said she should have talked to him about that first. She never went behind his back with Paige again. In season 6 even when they were at odds Elizabeth told him about Paige making the mistake with the name the very next morning. Elizabeth told him about the intern and that she didn't want her to sleep with him. She told him about their nights with Claudia and what they do there. She was completely up-front about it all and he not only OK'd it but was part of it at first. 

If Philip didn't want her in the KGB she wouldn't be. He knows what kind of person Paige is. All he would have to do is tell her the truth. The whole truth. All the stuff Elizabeth didn't want her to know because she didn't think she'd ever have to do those things. Tell her what he did to Martha. Philip never made a move to prevent it once Paige knew the truth. He was no victim. 

As much as he's a good man in other ways that's the despicable thing about Philip. Elizabeth genuinely believes she's doing the right thing with Paige. She believes she is giving Paige a purpose that really matters. She believes Paige will have a job in the State Department or the CIA and never have to see the truly ugly stuff. Philip genuinely believes it's the wrong thing, he genuinely believes there is no guarantee she'll be protected from the worst stuff, but he doesn't give enough of a shit about his daughter to actually do a damn thing about it. He even encourages it by bringing her in on the wheat thing.

 

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

If he was "out" he would have never had to escape back to the crumbling USSR, full of powerful people in the KGB, the military, and the politicals, who want him dead.

 

Philip wanted to go back to the USSR. He missed home. 

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

  She never considered "doing it his way" and leaving the KGB, not once. 

What? What about in Season 5 when it was Elizabeth who said they should retire and move back?  And then made elaborate plans to do so. They would be retired if Philip hadn't told her about Kimmy's father's promotion. A choice he made even though he knew she wouldn't be able to leave if he did that. 

Post-Pilot Elizabeth is the only one who seriously suggests they both retire other than in life or death circumstances. Philip is ready to do it whenever he thinks they've been caught.  After killing the Nazi collaborator, Elizabeth wants to retire just because she knows they've both had enough. 

Quote

 

I don't blame Elizabeth for not loving Philip enough to do what he did, sacrifice for the spouse, but I recognize it.

 

 

 

And Philip didn't love his children enough to make a sacrifice for them so he could stay in the US. He didn't even love his children enough to say "hey, I don't think you should be a spy and here's why."

Edited December 30, 2018 by CherithCutestory

[sistermagpie]

28 minutes ago, CherithCutestory said:

As much as he's a good man in other ways that's the despicable thing about Philip. Elizabeth genuinely believes she's doing the right thing with Paige. She believes she is giving Paige a purpose that really matters. She believes Paige will have a job in the State Department or the CIA and never have to see the truly ugly stuff. Philip genuinely believes it's the wrong thing, he genuinely believes there is no guarantee she'll be protected from the worst stuff, but he doesn't give enough of a shit about his daughter to actually do a damn thing about it. He even encourages it by bringing her in on the wheat thing.

What you're saying applies to both of them, though. Elizabeth does not genuinely believe she's giving Paige a great life of purpose. If she did, she wouldn't be lying to her about what she herself does. Or lying about the very crimes she's currently tricking Paige into participating in. Or making up a fantasy version of spying that bears no resemblance to the reality she knows just to make it easier on herself. (She's worked with sources in government agencies and has seen even them be destroyed and die too.) She's not being honest with Philip either. She didn't actually tell him about the name thing, she casually mentioned Paige getting a name wrong in a way that made it seem like it was anything like the huge red flag it was, while also claiming Paige was just really good at some of this stuff, which doesn't seem to be true at all. They both believe in their own pov enough to want Paige to respect them but neither wants to protect her enough to be completely honest with her--that seems like it's probably pretty common with parents. In both cases I think they're acting this way because they do love her, not because they don't love her enough.

I think Elizabeth *wants* to believe she actually believes all this with Paige, but so does Philip *want* to believe he's tried his best to get Paige to see the truth. Neither of them are total victims or misguided heroes when it comes to Paige. Both of them are lying to themselves and lying to Paige, just about different things at different times. Which isn't good, but also didn't force 20-year-old Paige to commit treason for a cause and country she obviously doesn't care about.

In the end, that might have been exactly what happened, really. Paige met a boy she liked and suddenly the girl who swallowed Elizabeth's lies about Renhull's suicide and scoffed at Philip's obvious hints that it was murder was ready to blow.

[Umbelina]

Philip argued against Paige becoming KGB from the jump, and he never stopped.  He never trained her, or encouraged her, or groomed her to be KGB. 
Telling her the truth about them had NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with "wanting her in the KGB."  He argued with Claudia about it, Arkady about it, and Gabriel about it, as well as with Elizabeth.  Making Paige stay close to Pastor Tim and his wife was for their (and the pastor's) survival, if she didn't, either her parents would be in prison or the Pastors would be killed.  THAT was entirely Paige's fault for spilling her guts to them about the KGB, in no was was that Philip "teaching her to spy."  Come on now.

For a few moments I thought he actually found his balls, but no, in the end, Elizabeth had them in her pocket, as usual.

[Roseanna]

13 hours ago, CherithCutestory said:

 I love the idea of Philip as some victim in the Paige stuff. He is the one who told her first. He's the one who told her she had to still be close to Pastor Tim. He's the one who wanted to tell her about the wheat being poisoned and he never corrected it when they found out it wasn't being poisoned. Elizabeth went behind his back exactly once when she told her about Gregory. She then apologized and said she should have talked to him about that first. She never went behind his back with Paige again. In season 6 even when they were at odds Elizabeth told him about Paige making the mistake with the name the very next morning. Elizabeth told him about the intern and that she didn't want her to sleep with him. She told him about their nights with Claudia and what they do there. She was completely up-front about it all and he not only OK'd it but was part of it at first. 

If Philip didn't want her in the KGB she wouldn't be. He knows what kind of person Paige is. All he would have to do is tell her the truth. The whole truth. All the stuff Elizabeth didn't want her to know because she didn't think she'd ever have to do those things. Tell her what he did to Martha. Philip never made a move to prevent it once Paige knew the truth. He was no victim. 

As much as he's a good man in other ways that's the despicable thing about Philip. Elizabeth genuinely believes she's doing the right thing with Paige. She believes she is giving Paige a purpose that really matters. She believes Paige will have a job in the State Department or the CIA and never have to see the truly ugly stuff. Philip genuinely believes it's the wrong thing, he genuinely believes there is no guarantee she'll be protected from the worst stuff, but he doesn't give enough of a shit about his daughter to actually do a damn thing about it. He even encourages it by bringing her in on the wheat thing.

 

 

11 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

What you're saying applies to both of them, though. Elizabeth does not genuinely believe she's giving Paige a great life of purpose. If she did, she wouldn't be lying to her about what she herself does. Or lying about the very crimes she's currently tricking Paige into participating in. Or making up a fantasy version of spying that bears no resemblance to the reality she knows just to make it easier on herself. (She's worked with sources in government agencies and has seen even them be destroyed and die too.) She's not being honest with Philip either. She didn't actually tell him about the name thing, she casually mentioned Paige getting a name wrong in a way that made it seem like it was anything like the huge red flag it was, while also claiming Paige was just really good at some of this stuff, which doesn't seem to be true at all. They both believe in their own pov enough to want Paige to respect them but neither wants to protect her enough to be completely honest with her--that seems like it's probably pretty common with parents. In both cases I think they're acting this way because they do love her, not because they don't love her enough.

I think Elizabeth *wants* to believe she actually believes all this with Paige, but so does Philip *want* to believe he's tried his best to get Paige to see the truth. Neither of them are total victims or misguided heroes when it comes to Paige. Both of them are lying to themselves and lying to Paige, just about different things at different times. Which isn't good, but also didn't force 20-year-old Paige to commit treason for a cause and country she obviously doesn't care about.

In the end, that might have been exactly what happened, really. Paige met a boy she liked and suddenly the girl who swallowed Elizabeth's lies about Renhull's suicide and scoffed at Philip's obvious hints that it was murder was ready to blow.

 

11 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Philip argued against Paige becoming KGB from the jump, and he never stopped.  He never trained her, or encouraged her, or groomed her to be KGB. 
Telling her the truth about them had NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with "wanting her in the KGB."  He argued with Claudia about it, Arkady about it, and Gabriel about it, as well as with Elizabeth.  Making Paige stay close to Pastor Tim and his wife was for their (and the pastor's) survival, if she didn't, either her parents would be in prison or the Pastors would be killed.  THAT was entirely Paige's fault for spilling her guts to them about the KGB, in no was was that Philip "teaching her to spy."  Come on now.

For a few moments I thought he actually found his balls, but no, in the end, Elizabeth had them in her pocket, as usual.

@Umbelina, nobody has claimed that Philip wanted Paige to become a KGB spy. But as @Cherithcutestory said, he had a means to prevent it by telling to truth about his and Elizabeth's life as spies, but he didn't do it.

Why? I don't think he chose not to act only or even primarily because he felt solidarity towards Elizabeth. The far stronger motive was that, just like Elizabeth for keeping Paige in the dark, was that he just could't say to his daughters:  I have murdered innocent people, I have used sex to make people to work for me and betray their country, I pretended to marry one of my victims etc etc.

Neither Elizabeth nor Philip could tell the truth to Paige because they couldn't stand that their daughter would se them as monsters. 

Yet, Paige had full responsibility for her actions. It wasn't anything Elizabeth did - probably her almost-mugging made her feel so vulnereable that she at 19 when most girls want to find her own way of life liked to hang out with Mom and Claudia. 

Edited December 30, 2018 by Roseanna
adding a word

[Umbelina]

5 hours ago, Roseanna said:

@Umbelina, nobody has claimed that Philip wanted Paige to become a KGB spy. But as @Cherithcutestory said, he had a means to prevent it by telling to truth about his and Elizabeth's life as spies, but he didn't do it.

Yes, that poster did, several times.  Others have said "they" (meaning Philip and Elizabeth.)  It was never done by Philip, not once.  Did he correct the lie that he believed about the tainted wheat?  Who knows?  Three year time jump.  However if he didn't, it was probably due to humiliation, and certainly not to grooming Paige.

5 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Why? I don't think he chose not to act only or even primarily because he felt solidarity towards Elizabeth. T

That is one way to put it, and by far the most popular way!

For me, I would say "obsession" with Elizabeth, to the point of his own mental, emotional, and now physical well being.

[sistermagpie]

Answering in the Philizabeth thread because it's getting more into both of them, I think...

[CherithCutestory]

On 12/30/2018 at 12:43 AM, Umbelina said:

Telling her the truth about them had NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with "wanting her in the KGB."  He argued with Claudia about it, Arkady about it, and Gabriel about it, as well as with Elizabeth.  Making Paige stay close to Pastor Tim and his wife was for their (and the pastor's) survival, if she didn't, either her parents would be in prison or the Pastors would be killed.  THAT was entirely Paige's fault for spilling her guts to them about the KGB, in no was was that Philip "teaching her to spy."  Come on now.

 

Of course, he didn't actively want her in the KGB. But if it was really important to him that she not be he would have stopped it. But he could have stopped it very easily. He didn't. He was no victim in what happened. He was completely aware of everything that was going on. If he come clean to Paige about what they do she would never have been involved in that life. He was as active in the lie as Elizabeth. And, in many ways, assisted in it. 

Of course, he didn't want her in the KGB. But he was completely passive and even active in selling the lies. So, it can't possibly be said he wasn't guilty in her getting involved too. 

Quote

Yes, that poster did, several times.

I literally said "Philip genuinely believes it's the wrong thing," 

What I meant was if he didn't want her in the KGB he should have tried harder. It was the obvious outcome of the actions he facilitated. And he did nothing about that once she was told (by him.) He didn't want it to happen but he didn't stop it.

Philip is not morally superior for knowing his actions were wrong and doing them or passively assisting them anyway. 

Edited January 13, 2019 by CherithCutestory

[Roseanna]

6 hours ago, CherithCutestory said:

Of course, he didn't actively want her in the KGB. But if it was really important to him that she not be he would have stopped it. But he could have stopped it very easily. He didn't. He was no victim in what happened. He was completely aware of everything that was going on. If he come clean to Paige about what they do she would never have been involved in that life. He was as active in the lie as Elizabeth. And, in many ways, assisted in it. 

Of course, he didn't want her in the KGB. But he was completely passive and even active in selling the lies. So, it can't possibly be said he wasn't guilty in her getting involved too. 

I literally said "Philip genuinely believes it's the wrong thing," 

What I meant was if he didn't want her in the KGB he should have tried harder. It was the obvious outcome of the actions he facilitated. And he did nothing about that once she was told (by him.) He didn't want it to happen but he didn't stop it.

Philip is not morally superior for knowing his actions were wrong and doing them or passively assisting them anyway. 

I agree that Philip is partly responsible because he didn't try to prevent it, although he had means to do it. He didn't even have to tell all, a part would have been enough to horrify Paige. But evidently he was afraid to lose her, which may also have been also Elizabeth's motive to lie.

It's often said here that Philip wants his children to be themselves but, although mostly a admirable principle, there is also a weakness in Philip's way to raise his children: he never lets them see his own principles (save "you respect Jesus but not us" to Paige and "this family stays together" to Henry). Although we saw many times the harmful effects of Elizabeth's mother on her, often it's easier to oppose a parent who says aloud his/her principles. Of course, P/E couldn't do it without revealing too much of their true identity to their children when they were too young to keep secrets, but I wonder if that was of the reasons why Paige began to idealize Pastor Tim.       

[sistermagpie]

12 hours ago, Roseanna said:

It's often said here that Philip wants his children to be themselves but, although mostly a admirable principle, there is also a weakness in Philip's way to raise his children: he never lets them see his own principles (save "you respect Jesus but not us" to Paige and "this family stays together" to Henry). Although we saw many times the harmful effects of Elizabeth's mother on her, often it's easier to oppose a parent who says aloud his/her principles. Of course, P/E couldn't do it without revealing too much of their true identity to their children when they were too young to keep secrets, but I wonder if that was of the reasons why Paige began to idealize Pastor Tim.       

Yes, Philip is on the other extreme to Elizabeth who feels she must impart all her principles and there's a problem if the kids fall short of them. Some of these principles she even has doubts about and when she does tries to rely on other people to stop her. People saw moments of her doing this in S6, like when she would try to drop little hints to Philip about maybe he's right about Paige or in Harvest when she seems to come closest to hoping Paige pulls out on her own, but still stops short of stopping herself lying and prettying up the job or lying and polishing up Paige's performance. Elizabeth poses as someone who's giving Paige the harsh truth because she needs to know how hard it will be in order to honestly commit to it, yet she's lying about it because she's afraid of being rejected, just as Philip stops short of making himself out to be a monster to scare Paige away. He's also someone who automatically adjusts himself so well to the person he's with that even as an individual he's a bit of a ghost

There's probably also an issue with both of them too, though, that they don't always know what their principles are. Elizabeth knows what she thinks they should be so, as you say, she can openly express them. But Philip is often lost throughout the show. There are certain moments where he knows what he thinks is right, but his life hasn't given him much practice in relying on a personal moral compass. He's got decades of experience feeling like shit and doing the thing anyway because to not do it feels wrong to him. I'm honestly not so sure exactly what he feels is wrong about Paige spying. He doesn't want it for her, but I don't know exactly what wrong he thinks she's doing working as another Marilyn or Martha.

Edited January 14, 2019 by sistermagpie

[Roseanna]

57 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

There's probably also an issue with both of them too, though, that they don't always know what their principles are. Elizabeth knows what she thinks they should be so, as you say, she can openly express them. But Philip is often lost throughout the show. There are certain moments where he knows what he thinks is right, but his life hasn't given him much practice in relying on a personal moral compass. He's got decades of experience feeling like shit and doing the thing anyway because to not do it feels wrong to him. I'm honestly not so sure exactly what he feels is wrong about Paige spying. He doesn't want it for her, but I don't know exactly what wrong he thinks she's doing working as another Marilyn or Martha.

Philip once said to Elizabeth that he wanted an easy life for Paige. That's an understandable ideal for a parent, especially one like Philip who had experienced hardship already as a child. But an easy life can feel boring for young people who, unlike Philip, has got "everything". Paige's infantuation with Pastor Tim showed that she wanted at least some challenges although it later became evident that she hadn't abilities nor was she willing to work hard to get her goals, unlike Henry.

In any case, Philip could have tried to lead her to make a diffence in the world in other ways than as a spy. But he never even tried.  

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Philip once said to Elizabeth that he wanted an easy life for Paige. That's an understandable ideal for a parent, especially one like Philip who had experienced hardship already as a child. But an easy life can feel boring for young people who, unlike Philip, has got "everything". Paige's infantuation with Pastor Tim showed that she wanted at least some challenges although it later became evident that she hadn't abilities nor was she willing to work hard to get her goals, unlike Henry.

In any case, Philip could have tried to lead her to make a diffence in the world in other ways than as a spy. But he never even tried.  

Yes, although again it's hard to even know what we're supposed to take from that because we don't see it as a thing, really, either way. He supported her going to the church in general, once told her there were lots of ways to make a difference (without saying anything specific). But he didn't actually have any more respect for her church protests than Elizabeth did. There probably were plenty of other things he'd respect, but there's not really any story where Paige wants to do something else so it's hard to tell.  It's fix the world or nothing.

Even Henry unwittingly reinforces the idea since none of his interests bend toward that sort of thing either.

Since there is a 3 year time gap and Paige is rather stubborn and arrogant when we meet her in S6 I think it's more logical than not to assume Philip did suggest she do something else that would still make a difference. She knows her father doesn't like it that she's doing this so we know there have been conversations off-screen here he expressed that. It's not making something up out of thin air to assume that Paige simply rejected any other ideas, whether Philip was specifically suggesting them or just saying that in general--she was already working at a food bank and seems to have given that up, for instance. Pastor Tim, we know, already would have talked to all the kids in his group about stuff like that. Paige has to have personally judged this as the only thing good enough because we know she's been exposed to other options. She's still being exposed to them in the world.

So while we know Philip is never shown specifically pushing her toward some other thing like becoming a doctor or whatever, we do know that Paige knows she has plenty of other options open to her that she has rejected as inferior the same way she thinks other kids at her college are inferior because they're not Elizabeth and Claudia.

One other thing I realized we should probably keep in mind is that Philip and Elizabeth did impart principles to their kids--just not specifically their political principles. Those are the most important issues with this story, of course, but we do see glimpses of their parenting on personal matters and the kids obviously know how they feel about plenty of things. Henry's break-in at the neighbor's house, for instance, grows out of Philip not buying him the video game he wants so they've been raised not to expect to get every material thing they want. The kids didn't just stumble into the basically polite, kind kids we meet in S1.

[Umbelina]

On 1/12/2019 at 9:15 PM, CherithCutestory said:

Of course, he didn't actively want her in the KGB. But if it was really important to him that she not be he would have stopped it. But he could have stopped it very easily. He didn't. He was no victim in what happened. He was completely aware of everything that was going on. If he come clean to Paige about what they do she would never have been involved in that life. He was as active in the lie as Elizabeth. And, in many ways, assisted in it. 

Of course, he didn't want her in the KGB. But he was completely passive and even active in selling the lies. So, it can't possibly be said he wasn't guilty in her getting involved too. 

He was guilty of being a spineless, passive weakling who foolishly thinks he "loves" Elizabeth, and ruins his life completely for that "love."

It's a junior high version of love.  Real love doesn't "make you feel like shit all the time" in order to keep them in your life.  He was warped by the KGB, further warped by having no one at all he could be honest with except Elizabeth, and for a man so desperate for honesty he joined EST?  That's a lot to handle.

Elizabeth meanwhile, had her lover, and was in love with him much longer than she "loved" Philip, they laughed about Philip together, and clueless Philip didn't find out for over a decade.

On 1/12/2019 at 9:15 PM, CherithCutestory said:

I literally said "Philip genuinely believes it's the wrong thing," 

What I meant was if he didn't want her in the KGB he should have tried harder. It was the obvious outcome of the actions he facilitated. And he did nothing about that once she was told (by him.) He didn't want it to happen but he didn't stop it.

Philip is not morally superior for knowing his actions were wrong and doing them or passively assisting them anyway. 

Of course he should have.  He should have taken the kids and left Elizabeth long, long, long ago.

He's a wimp, but that has nothing to do with him helping recruit Paige, because he never, ever did that.

On 1/13/2019 at 4:12 AM, Roseanna said:

I agree that Philip is partly responsible because he didn't try to prevent it, although he had means to do it. He didn't even have to tell all, a part would have been enough to horrify Paige. But evidently he was afraid to lose her, which may also have been also Elizabeth's motive to lie.

It's often said here that Philip wants his children to be themselves but, although mostly a admirable principle, there is also a weakness in Philip's way to raise his children: he never lets them see his own principles (save "you respect Jesus but not us" to Paige and "this family stays together" to Henry). Although we saw many times the harmful effects of Elizabeth's mother on her, often it's easier to oppose a parent who says aloud his/her principles. Of course, P/E couldn't do it without revealing too much of their true identity to their children when they were too young to keep secrets, but I wonder if that was of the reasons why Paige began to idealize Pastor Tim.  

His weakness was his addiction to Elizabeth, and failure to move on from a destructive relationship, if not for himself, then certainly for his kids. 

Love doesn't hurt you or people you love.  Philip never learned that, he was like a addict, and his drug was Elizabeth.

With all the self help books out there back then, he should have read one, one written for a woman, since they were usually the ones in abusive relationships. 

On 1/13/2019 at 5:32 PM, sistermagpie said:

Since there is a 3 year time gap and Paige is rather stubborn and arrogant when we meet her in S6 I think it's more logical than not to assume Philip did suggest she do something else that would still make a difference. She knows her father doesn't like it that she's doing this so we know there have been conversations off-screen here he expressed that. It's not making something up out of thin air to assume that Paige simply rejected any other ideas, whether Philip was specifically suggesting them or just saying that in general--she was already working at a food bank and seems to have given that up, for instance. Pastor Tim, we know, already would have talked to all the kids in his group about stuff like that. Paige has to have personally judged this as the only thing good enough because we know she's been exposed to other options. She's still being exposed to them in the world.

True, and Elizabeth never once stopped Paige from being snotty and insulting about Philip.

That 3 year time jump certainly eliminated a lot of difficult writing for the showrunners....

[Roseanna]

5 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Real love doesn't "make you feel like shit all the time" in order to keep them in your life.  

Philip didn't speak of his relationship with Elizabeth but his job. Which is exactly how Gadi Becker feels in The Little Drummer Girl and (I suppose) many officers felt during the war and after it when they had to send their soldiers to die. 

[sistermagpie]

9 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Philip didn't speak of his relationship with Elizabeth but his job. Which is exactly how Gadi Becker feels in The Little Drummer Girl and (I suppose) many officers felt during the war and after it when they had to send their soldiers to die. 

I think he's genuinely at his happiest and most relaxed with Elizabeth throughout the show. (And she with him.)

[Umbelina]

On 1/15/2019 at 4:20 AM, Roseanna said:

Philip didn't speak of his relationship with Elizabeth but his job. Which is exactly how Gadi Becker feels in The Little Drummer Girl and (I suppose) many officers felt during the war and after it when they had to send their soldiers to die. 

I don't remember any specificity in his "feel like shit all the time" and every other version of that we have heard through the years from Philip, but let's say that is true.

Who kept him in his job, at the travel agency covering for Elizabeth, who insisted on recruiting his child into that life?  ELIZABETH.  So, the two are hopelessly wound up inside each other there.

22 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I think he's genuinely at his happiest and most relaxed with Elizabeth throughout the show. (And she with him.)

And some some of the most devastating and worse times of his life as well.  They were only a real couple for a short time, Elizabeth decided to love him, and stop insulting him behind his back to her real love for 12 years, Gregory, only in episode one.

Philip, as I already said, was trapped, and no, I don't think his "love" for Elizabeth was healthy or good for him, she was just the only one the KGB allowed him to be honest with, even though she wasn't being honest with him, most of the time.

Much more of an addiction than a love, and naive and childish and probably fed by her attractiveness, and ability to continue the guilt trip the KGB indoctrinated them with at young ages.  Had he left her, and saved his children, he would have found happiness with someone else eventually, because he was a lovable man, someone who deserved far more than Elizabeth's version of love.

[Roseanna]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

Had he left her, and saved his children, he would have found happiness with someone else eventually, because he was a lovable man, someone who deserved far more than Elizabeth's version of love.

If Philip had defected, he would have felt much, much worse than he ever did in his cover life. Nobody respects traitors - at least those who have no principles but only sell themselves for money and security.

Philip is a man with many faces - he can pretend to be anything another person wants him to be. Only with Elizabeth he can be real.           

[sistermagpie]

7 hours ago, Umbelina said:

And some some of the most devastating and worse times of his life as well.  They were only a real couple for a short time, Elizabeth decided to love him, and stop insulting him behind his back to her real love for 12 years, Gregory, only in episode one.

 

She was by his side during some of the most devastating and worst times in his life but I don't think he thinks she caused them (and I think he's right in not seeing it that way, even if Elizabeth's actions contributed to the situation). I don't think Elizabeth was just insulting him for 12 years with Gregory. She could have a refuge where she wasn't her cover life without disrespecting Philip (and Paige and Henry, who were also part of her fake life when she was with Gregory) completely. Philip as a concept was probably a bigger problem than Philip as an individual. By the time we meet them the real life and fake life have organically switched places already even without her being in love with Philip.

I do think Philip sees Elizabeth at her worst, certainly, but that's part of why they seem believably close to me. In S6 she's probably the worst she's ever been and often she takes out her anger on him (with everyone else she's playing some sort of role) but it still read like two people angry at each other to me, rather than one person making the other miserable. 

7 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Had he left her, and saved his children, he would have found happiness with someone else eventually, because he was a lovable man, someone who deserved far more than Elizabeth's version of love.

I tend to think he wouldn't, although of course we can't know that. Leaving aside how he'd feel about defecting if he actually did it, it just honestly seems like an actually healthy choice for him to see Elizabeth as his main person. To me it looks like she's able to make him feel genuinely cared for/comforted without guilt and that she sees him more clearly and respects him in ways nobody else does. The kids would have avoided the trauma of START if he'd run with them early on instead of choosing not to do that even with Elizabeth's go-ahead, but I think he would have just faded away into a half life. Sure he'd probably find somebody who loved him, but he would never feel like they knew him, imo.

Elizabeth ironically is more the one who's shown trying to quit Philip and failing and being even more afraid of losing him. She even does things for him that for her would have been unthinkable earlier. (Though again I don't think she's just doing it for him like she's trying to hold onto him; she seems to genuinely trust and respect his judgment.) Philip chooses her above his own instincts and wants too, but he does that for other reasons too during the show. 

Edited January 17, 2019 by sistermagpie

[Roseanna]

10 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I don't remember any specificity in his "feel like shit all the time" and every other version of that we have heard through the years from Philip, but let's say that is true.

As always, we must remember the context of the words. Philip spoke those words to Stan in order to make him let P/E and Paige go, so it's obvious that he spoke of spying and more precisely of betraying people as the whole point was to convince Stan that he hadn't enjoy to dupe him. He certainly didn't speak of being with his children. And there was no time to speak of his marriage, either.

And always the actions mean more than the words. If Philip had meant his relationship with Elizabeth, it would havee been no point to return with her to Russia. He had an option, although not very good one: to go somewhere in the West and try to meet Henry (not sensible!) - and Elizabeth let him decide!

@Umbelina, there is no point of arguing. We have different conception of love, defecting and betrayal, happiness and meaning of life. So we must agree to disagree.  

8 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I do think Philip sees Elizabeth at her worst, certainly, but that's part of why they seem believably close to me. In S6 she's probably the worst she's ever been and often she takes out her anger on him (with everyone else she's playing some sort of role) but it still read like two people angry at each other to me, rather than one person making the other miserable. 

Yes, even then they fight like a couple does.

In S1 we see that Philip doesn't accept anything from Elizabeth: he leaves her.   

[sistermagpie]

13 hours ago, Roseanna said:

As always, we must remember the context of the words. Philip spoke those words to Stan in order to make him let P/E and Paige go, so it's obvious that he spoke of spying and more precisely of betraying people as the whole point was to convince Stan that he hadn't enjoy to dupe him. He certainly didn't speak of being with his children. And there was no time to speak of his marriage, either.

 

I think his original line about this was in context of speaking to Yousaf. They're talking about the CIA cancelling their meeting with the Mujahideen because of Elizabeth and Philip's plan, which came back to Yousaf and Annelise. Yousaf asks if it was worth it and Philip says, "I don't think like that. I know a lot of young men who won't be blown out of the sky because of what I did-- what Annelise did. What we did. A lot of young men who... "

Then he stops and just says, "Yousaf, I feel like shit all the time."

 

[Roseanna]

26 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I think his original line about this was in context of speaking to Yousaf. They're talking about the CIA cancelling their meeting with the Mujahideen because of Elizabeth and Philip's plan, which came back to Yousaf and Annelise. Yousaf asks if it was worth it and Philip says, "I don't think like that. I know a lot of young men who won't be blown out of the sky because of what I did-- what Annelise did. What we did. A lot of young men who... "

Then he stops and just says, "Yousaf, I feel like shit all the time."

 

Well, that sums Philip's dilemma: on the other hand, he wants to save his own countrymen, young men like his own son and Oleg's brother, who are fighting in Afghanistan (although he of course helps to kill the Afghans who are defending their country and in the same time are religious fanatics) and on the other hand what he does him other people feel bad. It's the same dilemma that Gadi Becker has in The Little Drummer Girl. 

[Umbelina]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

I think his original line about this was in context of speaking to Yousaf. They're talking about the CIA cancelling their meeting with the Mujahideen because of Elizabeth and Philip's plan, which came back to Yousaf and Annelise. Yousaf asks if it was worth it and Philip says, "I don't think like that. I know a lot of young men who won't be blown out of the sky because of what I did-- what Annelise did. What we did. A lot of young men who... "

Then he stops and just says, "Yousaf, I feel like shit all the time."

 

He repeats that line, or other lines that are very similar to other people as well.  Pretty sure to William during the conversation they had about Philip desperately wanting out of the KGB, but only if Elizabeth would come with him, while Gabe was recovering from the virus, and Elizabeth was reacting to the antibiotic.  He says something very similar in the EST meeting, and I think something to Sandra as well, he comes damn close to saying something to Martha as well, but stops himself.

Basically, he was a bleeding cry for help, but because of his addiction to Elizabeth, or "love" for her if you see it that way, he had no way out of a life that made him feel terrible all the time.

Elizabeth knew it, which was obvious a couple of times, most specifically during the whole Glanders thing, when she tells him to blame the pastors' deaths on her (to the kids) and get out of the KGB and take the kids and just be Americans like you have always wanted to be.

Elizabeth knew it was killing him inside, but didn't love him enough, or her kids enough, her country always came first. 

Soon after the show ends her country is dead, all of her ambitions for a communist world are gone, everything she put herself, her daughter, and her husband through was for nothing.  Even if she isn't already dead by the time that happens?  That will destroy her.

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Basically, he was a bleeding cry for help, but because of his addiction to Elizabeth, or "love" for her if you see it that way, he had no way out of a life that made him feel terrible all the time.

He does get out in a significant way. He retires except for Kimmy. He's no longer doing the thing that was killing him. That's all he thought he wanted. Then a guy from home shows up and tells him his country needs him and he believes what he's saying and gets back involved.  That's the thing he can't resist that drags him back in. And he finally understands that.

Edited January 18, 2019 by sistermagpie

[Umbelina]

25 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

He does get out in a significant way. He retires except for Kimmy. He's no longer doing the thing that was killing him. That's all he thought he wanted. Then a guy from home shows up and tells him his country needs him and he believes what he's saying and gets back involved.  That's the thing he can't resist that drags him back in. And he finally understands that.

He was never "out."  He continued to live with an active KGB spy, and provide her cover by staying at his fake job at the travel agency.  His daughter was also involved.

"Out" to me anyway, means absolutely nothing to do with the KGB.  He never had that.  Getting back involved because his "true love" needed him, and because Oleg convinced him that his country needed him was something any patriot would do.  It also shows that he was never really out, not in any kind of meaningful, "go live your life however you want" way.

I really think, by the way, thinking about that, that Gabe quitting would have been so much more powerful if he had been ordered to kill Philip, as an interference in their primo spy's job.  They certainly hinted at it, with Gabe talking so much about killing friends under Stalin, and being trapped into that.  They never went there though, which was kind of a head scratcher to me.  It's hard to believe the KGB would have just left him there, refusing to do his job should have raised some concerns, a lot of them really, about him possibly subverting Elizabeth as well and the bigger issue of Philip possibly sabotaging Paige's future with the KGB.  To me, it seems like both of those things made him much too big a risk to leave in place.

The most balls Philip showed in the final season was when he realized his "true love" Elizabeth had used sex on him to get him to agree to set up Kimmy's abduction?  He finally said "No."   He said "No." a few other times during the run of the show, for example, when Haig declared himself "in charge" and the USSR freaked out, and Elizabeth wouldn't listen to reason. 

Philip saying "no" the few times that he did were some of my favorite scenes by the way.   He also said "no." about Martha, to Gabe, and of course he said "no" to Paige being KGB, but was ignored by both the KGB and his "true love."

[sistermagpie]

4 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

He was never "out."  He continued to live with an active KGB spy, and provide her cover by staying at his fake job at the travel agency.  His daughter was also involved.

"Out" to me anyway, means absolutely nothing to do with the KGB.  He never had that.  Getting back involved because his "true love" needed him, and because Oleg convinced him that his country needed him was something any patriot would do.  It also shows that he was never really out, not in any kind of meaningful, "go live your life however you want" way.

Philip wanted to stop doing the things that made him feel terrible and he got that. He didn't have extra demands about how Paige had to not want to spy or he had to have a different job. I think he thought he'd be perfectly happy working at the travel agency. Of course he would have been happier if Paige wasn't doing this stuff, but he understood why Elizabeth wanted her to do it.

I can't dismiss Philip spying on Elizabeth as unimportant if he's supposed to be so motivated by an addiction to her. Philip doesn't see himself as just doing what any patriot would do. When he first talks to Oleg he says it has nothing to do with him, that he's out and doesn't want to be drawn back in. He's spying on people in the Centre itself in an unofficial operation. Neither Arkady or Oleg see this as just something they'd expect non-traitor to do--Arkady spent a long time with Philip's file before taking a risk with him. The operation was written to fit the things that drive the four guys who are in on it. They're all risking everything in ways none of them have before. It's the one thing Philip seems to feel really right about for a lot of S6.

I mean, if you're writing a story about an addict who only steals to support his habit even if it makes him feel terrible you can't have a season where the person is clean and robs a store to buy a fur coat or to help orphans or whatever, and still blame the heroin for the stealing.

Plus we have the Kimmy plot set up to show Elizabeth *not* being able to draw Philip back into spying using his love for her. She tells him she needs him, assures him the job she needs him to do won't hurt anyone. Brings it up after sleeping with him after a long dry spell when she wasn't interested. Philip seems like he'll do it. He sleeps with Kimmy. Then he wakes up, realizes he's doing something wrong and tells her he's not only not helping, he's blown the whole thing up so she can't touch her. Elizabeth responds by attacking him as a husband and a man--she accuses him of cheating on her with Kimmy, implies he's worthless compared to men like Harvest who do their job, tells her to shove his Forum bullshit up his ass, refuses to sleep in their bed.

This is the classic "deadly attraction" scenario where the dominant person entices with affection and sex, presents herself as in need of help only he can give and coldly rejects him and accuses him of betraying her romantically when he rebels. And it doesn't work at all! Philip never actually regrets protecting Kimmy. He doesn't beg to come with her to Chicago to make up for it. She doesn't control him. She never did.

Of course there are times where Elizabeth is the important to him. He goes to Chicago to help her because he'd prefer that to letting her die. He prefers living with her and spying to leaving her. He'll help her kidnap the CIA guy because he's afraid she'll get killed or caught on her own. He'll back her up on letting Gregory die on his own terms. But he also has a whole storyline about how he views his job that's not dependent on Elizabeth, just as she does.

 

44 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

The most balls Philip showed in the final season was when he realized his "true love" Elizabeth had used sex on him to get him to agree to set up Kimmy's abduction?  He finally said "No."   He said "No." a few other times during the run of the show, for example, when Haig declared himself "in charge" and the USSR freaked out, and Elizabeth wouldn't listen to reason. 

Philip said no all the time. When he thought he was right, he had no problem saying so or even taking action. The Kimmy thing wasn't a big transformation he worked up to for years.  He got Martha out, sent Elizabeth to Germany, loudly opposed the 2nd gen program (it was no doubt his idea to warn Arkady to keep the Centre away), refused to sleep with Kimmy to prove obedience, told Elizabeth the Russians were being stupid about Haig, insisted that Elizabeth give him the message for Oleg, told Elizabeth to either end the marriage or not in S1, didn't take her offer of half-reconciliation later. He's never afraid to say no when he thinks he's right--but often he's not sure he's right or he's influenced by the other person's argument. Even two of the things that seem to be something Philip wanted the least--sleeping with Kimmy and Paige working for the Centre--were things Philip himself talked about as a possibility he was already reconciled with little fuss years before they happened.

It's actually Elizabeth who works up to a big moment where she does something that would once have been very OOC by thinking for herself and questioning orders and she does it because of Philip's influence.

[Umbelina]

Oh man, that's the other thing!

Philip defying orders and sending Elizabeth to see her mother ended up just being ignored by them?  Such bullshit.  They already had a negative file on him from Elizabeth's tattling, and then he does that?  Takes Martha out against orders as well, and then wants to quit?  There is just no chance the KGB would have left him in play to possibly corrupt Elizabeth or throw a wrench into the big deal second generation plan. 

I wish Gabe had quit rather than murder Philip, it would have been such a good story.  Then Claudia comes back to do it, but the KGB changes their mind, or even better, Elizabeth discovers something is up (and that story alone would have been more interesting than wheat and holes) and goes toe to toe with Center or Claudia about what will happen if Philip is killed, "accident" or not, ala Mrs. Pastor in some ways.   Imagine her keeping it to herself, and then Philip finding out, now that would have been romantic and shown that Elizabeth would not pick/love country over Philip every single time.

[Roseanna]

14 hours ago, Umbelina said:

didn't love him enough, or her kids enough, her country always came first. 

What's wrong in that? Does the English poem say: "I could not love thee, dear, so much, Loved I not honor more."

[Roseanna]

14 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Soon after the show ends her country is dead, all of her ambitions for a communist world are gone, everything she put herself, her daughter, and her husband through was for nothing. 

Russia wasn't dead although the Soviet Union and Communism was. Nobody knew it beforehand. Actually, if Gorbatchov had used violence as his predecessors had done, the happenings would have been different.

Basically, one can't demand that the characters, and still less the real people, make decisions on the basis of what they can't know because it happens afterwards.