Zella July 26, 2022 Share July 26, 2022 18 hours ago, Andy73 said: I never like Amador. But I can feel Stan behavior. I think Amador flashbacks don’t work to make Amador feel like a Stan real friend, but I can buy Stan reaction. Even though they weren’t real friends, they were partner. Welcome, Andy! I feel the same about Amador. Initially, it seemed like the flashbacks were shoehorned in, to me, but I really do think that Stan is someone who didn't particularly like Amador when he had to work with him--because let's face it, Amador is really annoying--but I think in retrospect he felt bad about not being bigger buddies with him. But it was easier to do that once Amador was missing and then dead than when he was actually dealing with him. Link to comment
Zella July 26, 2022 Share July 26, 2022 (edited) 5 hours ago, Paloma said: I just finished the amazing scene between Elizabeth and the old woman (AV Club tells me that her name is Betty, though I didn't remember hearing it) in "Do Mail Robots Dream of Electric Sheep?" The first time I watched this scene I remember the emotional impact of Betty's stories of her life, acceptance of her fate, and attempt to connect with Elizabeth as a human being. I was also struck by the honesty of Elizabeth's answers, though of course the reason she could answer Betty honestly was that Elizabeth knew from the moment she entered the office that she would have to kill Betty. I think that episode is one of the maddest I got at Elizabeth. Even her choice of "mercy," to me was especially cruel. Honestly, if I was that little old lady, I'd rather have taken a bullet to the back of the head than have to slowly overdose on my meds. I have a crazy wimpy gag reflex, though--my dentist office has notes warning the poor hygienists LOL--so just imagining choking down all those pills was like torture to me. I also noticed that Elizabeth is almost always more honest when she is on the job than she is in her personal life when she is being her, which is very interesting. I do think it is easier for her to level with someone in that way if she doesn't think she will have to see them again. 5 hours ago, sistermagpie said: Plus, once she does that I resented the way she seemed to basically use the woman to talk about her mother, because she loves to able to talk about herself honestly. So it's like because she's going to kill the woman she gets to enjoy getting to say some things first. It was the only time I actually wanted her to get caught! Re-watching it now it doesn't bother me as much anywhere and the Betty scenes take up much less of the ep than I remembered. There were also some at the time who thought the show just made a mistake in making Betty so old, as if they forgot that WW2 vets in 1983 weren't that old. But obviously they now that since Claudia is one. I think making her that old sort of fits Elizabeth, though. The woman's surrounded by b&w photos and even the photo of her now grown son is a baby picture. She's living in the distant past, as Elizabeth is in danger of doing sometimes. Plus she's got that long marriage, which Elizabeth really wants imo. (I sometimes wonder if Betty's frankly weird story about her best friend/enemy, her husband's second wife, makes Elizabeth think of Martha or Irina.) I was one of those people who was really bothered by the age of the old lady. LOL I'd also wondered in the moment if the old lady's story about the other wife was meant to pick at Elizabeth concerning Martha and/or Irina. On a rewatch, I've noticed the show is really good at sneaking in subplots that connect so well to the main themes and storylines that I never caught the first time around. Spoilering things so Paloma can still read the comment spoiler-free but last night I watched season 6, episode 2, which is where Spoiler Elizabeth ends up having to kill the military guy who had once warned Philip about Star Wars. I've always thought that scene was basically Exhibit A on how Philip often knows how to manage people better than Elizabeth since she goes about it in the worst way possible. But this time around, I noticed that the episode also has a subplot about Philip being frustrated because Stavos lost a client who missed dealing with Philip, which is exactly what is happening in a much more violent way for Elizabeth. It also features Elizabeth being, quite frankly, a real bitch toward Philip and sarcastically commenting on how she knows he likes to talk, like it is a character flaw. But that facet of his personality is exactly why he probably would have likely handled that situation much better. Because he liked to talk and was interested in people's feelings and considerate about them, he learned way back in season 1 exactly why that guy was coming to the Soviets, motivation that Elizabeth was never going to learn with the way she tried to browbeat him and bulldoze him. I'm being kind of hard on Elizabeth, which isn't to diminish her spy skills, but I do think Philip is much better at situations that require finesse and people handling skills, and even unrelated subplots in the episode all point to that. Nice job, writers! Edited July 26, 2022 by Zella 1 1 Link to comment
Paloma July 26, 2022 Share July 26, 2022 16 minutes ago, Zella said: I think that episode is one of the maddest I got at Elizabeth. Even her choice of "mercy," to me was especially cruel. Honestly, if I was that little old lady, I'd rather have taken a bullet to the back of the head than have to slowly overdose on my meds. I have a crazy wimpy gag reflex, though--my dentist office has notes warning the poor hygienists LOL--so just imagining choking down all those pills was like torture to me. Agree on all points. I also have a terrible gag reflex that drives them crazy at the dentist. And even aside from the dentist I have trouble swallowing pills and sometimes get coughing fits when they go down the wrong way. 20 minutes ago, Zella said: Spoilering things so Paloma can still read the comment spoiler-free Thank you! 1 Link to comment
Zella July 26, 2022 Share July 26, 2022 3 minutes ago, Paloma said: I also have a terrible gag reflex that drives them crazy at the dentist. And even aside from the dentist I have trouble swallowing pills and sometimes get coughing fits when they go down the wrong way. I'm so sorry that you have that too! I don't think they believed me when I first warned them at the dentist. After I barfed on a couple of different people while they were trying to do X-rays, they finally got the hint. 1 1 Link to comment
sistermagpie July 26, 2022 Share July 26, 2022 36 minutes ago, Zella said: Welcome, Andy! I feel the same about Amador. Initially, it seemed like the flashbacks were shoehorned in, to me, but I really do think that Stan is someone who didn't particularly like Amador when he had to work with him--because let's face it, Amador is really annoying--but I think in retrospect he felt bad about not being bigger buddies with him. But it was easier to do that once Amador was missing and then dead than when he was actually dealing with him. I also remembering disagreeing with someone on how bad he was supposed to be as an agent. He doesn't seem like a screw-up or anything to me, but it seems like he's very much average compared to both Stan (who has his own problems) and Adderholt. 21 minutes ago, Zella said: I also noticed that Elizabeth is almost always more honest when she is on the job than she is in her personal life when she is being her, which is very interesting. I do think it is easier for her to level with someone in that way if she doesn't think she will have to see them again. Yes, it's like when she can use her real emotions in the work she'll actually dig them out but otherwise you wouldn't know she was even aware. Like when I watch her first conversation with Lisa when she's saying how she wishes she could have a chance to show her husband he can rely on her the way he took care of everything while she recovered from being shot I now realize oh, that's probably a big part of why she's pushing him to let her do the wet work and then retire in S5. But then resents him for it later. 21 minutes ago, Zella said: I was one of those people who was really bothered by the age of the old lady. LOL It makes absolutely no sense at all. It'd be one thing if we just were supposed to think her husband served in WW2 in his 40s. But she seems to obviously be talking about his time there as where he started out--didn't he learn his trade there? Her whole story just makes it sound like she should be, well, Claudia's age. And even the whole soap opera with the second wife doesn't require her to be in her 80s! I feel like when we meet her son he seems too young too. It's like in old movies where women with white hair in buns have kids in their 20s. Did they just want Lois Smith in the role? Because as good as she is, plenty of people could have done it. 21 minutes ago, Zella said: I'd also wondered in the moment if the old lady's story about the other wife was meant to pick at Elizabeth concerning Martha and/or Irina. On a rewatch, I've noticed the show is really good at sneaking in subplots that connect so well to the main themes and storylines that I never caught the first time around. I was thinking about this and I wondered if maybe the point was it almost didn't matter which specific other woman Elizabeth was thinking of, since her jealousy comes more from worrying she's inadequate than a particular woman being great. 21 minutes ago, Zella said: Spoilering things so Paloma can still read the comment spoiler-free but last night I watched season 6, episode 2, which is where Reveal spoiler Elizabeth ends up having to kill the military guy who had once warned Philip about Star Wars. I've always thought that scene was basically Exhibit A on how Philip often knows how to manage people better than Elizabeth since she goes about it in the worst way possible. But this time around, I noticed that the episode also has a subplot about Philip being frustrated because Stavos lost a client who missed dealing with Philip, which is exactly what is happening in a much more violent way for Elizabeth. It also features Elizabeth being, quite frankly, a real bitch toward Philip and sarcastically commenting on how she knows he likes to talk, like it is a character flaw. But that facet of his personality is exactly why he probably would have likely handled that situation much better. Because he liked to talk and was interested in people's feelings and considerate about them, he learned way back in season 1 exactly why that guy was coming to the Soviets, motivation that Elizabeth was never going to learn with the way she tried to browbeat him and bulldoze him. I'm being kind of hard on Elizabeth, which isn't to diminish her spy skills, but I do think Philip is much better at situations that require finesse and people handling skills, and even unrelated subplots in the episode all point to that. Nice job, writers! Spoiler 28 minutes ago, Zella said: Elizabeth ends up having to kill the military guy who had once warned Philip about Star Wars. I've always thought that scene was basically Exhibit A on how Philip often knows how to manage people better than Elizabeth since she goes about it in the worst way possible. But this time around, I noticed that the episode also has a subplot about Philip being frustrated because Stavos lost a client who missed dealing with Philip, which is exactly what is happening in a much more violent way for Elizabeth. It also features Elizabeth being, quite frankly, a real bitch toward Philip and sarcastically commenting on how she knows he likes to talk, like it is a character flaw. But that facet of his personality is exactly why he probably would have likely handled that situation much better. Because he liked to talk and was interested in people's feelings and considerate about them, he learned way back in season 1 exactly why that guy was coming to the Soviets, motivation that Elizabeth was never going to learn with the way she tried to browbeat him and bulldoze him. I'm being kind of hard on Elizabeth, which isn't to diminish her spy skills, but I do think Philip is much better at situations that require finesse and people handling skills, and even unrelated subplots in the episode all point to that. Nice job, writers! Answering also under spoilers: Spoiler Yeah, I really notice on rewatch how there's a reason Philip's operations go on for years while Elizabeth's are short-lived. Her characters don't adapt to peoples' changing situations or see problems coming. In S6 especially she's just strong-arming everyone and in some cases, like with the general, you can see it's just the worst way to go about it. The funny thing is at the time people said that the general was originally Philip's source but he wasn't even--it was Elizabeth who was supposed to go to that meeting. But in that one meeting Philip got where the guy was coming from. He would probably have told Elizabeth about it, at least. I think he even brings it up immediately when she mentions the guy. Nothing is going right for her in that last season and she just keeps trying to punch harder through it. It's not that she's bad at her job, but with both of them their strengths have weaknesses that go with them. One of the things that makes Elizabeth able to continue spying so long is she just follows orders and trusts the Centre, and cuts herself off from thinking or feeling too much. But eventually that doesn't just burn her out, but she so ruthlessly forbids herself from seeing things she doesn't want to see, she finally does become worse at her job. That also just made me think of another interesting connection. When Elizabeth starts burning out she gets more violent, punching and shooting her way out of every problem, while while the biggest sign to Elizabeth that Philip has really had enough is when he can't shoot Natalie. 1 2 Link to comment
Andy73 July 26, 2022 Share July 26, 2022 (edited) 19 hours ago, Paloma said: I just finished the amazing scene between Elizabeth and the old woman Unlike many other guys , I liked this episode. I remember it well! I liked it for intense emotion I feel. I know Betty could seem fake because she is too calm in the face of death… 19 hours ago, Paloma said: She and Philip were in the dark and working quietly, and it seemed apparent that whoever was up in the office was there to get something or to work, not to do a security check. And since this person had obviously come in by an entrance that did not reveal Elizabeth and Philip, it's logical to assume that the person would leave the same way You are right here of course but I think the point is not trama; as you said all of this was a plot device. IMHO the point is to hit us with emotions. And it does very well. I really suffered for both Betty and Elizabeth. Also, and this is Sistermagpie’s idea, the show tells us Elizabeth’s main romantic fantasy: her desire to grow old with the person she loves. Elizabeth recognizes herself in Betty. 18 hours ago, sistermagpie said: So it's like because she's going to kill the woman she gets to enjoy getting to say some things first. It was the only time I actually wanted her to get caught! I did’t read in this way: Elizabeth is in great trouble here. If I'm not mistaken, she hid a tear when she returned to Philip. It's the first time we've seen her crying to have done something that was inevitable for the mission. Of course She does a really horrible thing, but it comes at a high cost. She is very human here! 18 hours ago, sistermagpie said: All the characters are set up from the beginning to end up where they end up. Oh Yes.All characters. And that is great!! Spoiler We have already talked about wedding rings, when the time comes we will talk about the garage. I never watched Med Man or Breakin bed and unfortunately they aren’t on air now, so I don’t know how they are. But I agree with you: The Americans is definitely driven by characters. 18 hours ago, sistermagpie said: People who had been together 20 years or so said "communication" was most important. People 50+ years said: Respect. They get that. My nickname tells the truth. I totally agree. Respect on top! And P&E are absolutely respected both at work and in life. 18 hours ago, sistermagpie said: This is one of the reasons it always drove me crazy when people would rewrite the show to pretend they neglected or ignored the kids, or didn't know them because they had demanding jobs I go crazy too. Ok they could have a normal life…I am sincerely convinced that they love kids and they are doing their best. Someone said only Phil love skids. I go crazy again… Try to do something wrong to the kids and see Elizabeth’s reaction… I want to be somewhere else… 18 hours ago, sistermagpie said: I love how you can start to see Martha making her own demands and deals with Clark. She's not just a passive victim in this con. She's always making up her own schemes. At first I didn’t like Martha. I don't like her now, but I find her more interesting. I definitely don't find her insignificant. The girl grew up. 18 hours ago, sistermagpie said: The first time I saw that ep I absolutely hated it. Lol… I didn’t thought. Edited July 26, 2022 by Andy73 Cover a spoiler 1 Link to comment
Andy73 July 26, 2022 Share July 26, 2022 14 hours ago, Zella said: Welcome, Andy! I feel the same about Amador. Initially, it seemed like the flashbacks were shoehorned in, to me, but I really do think that Stan is someone who didn't particularly like Amador when he had to work with him--because let's face it, Amador is really annoying--but I think in retrospect he felt bad about not being bigger buddies with him. But it was easier to do that once Amador was missing and then dead than when he was actually dealing with him. Thank you. I think all are on Stan. It doesn’t matter what he feel for Amador… the matter is Amador was his Partner. And yes I think Stan didn’t like Amador too 1 Link to comment
Andy73 July 26, 2022 Share July 26, 2022 (edited) On 7/26/2022 at 4:29 AM, sistermagpie said: On 7/26/2022 at 3:50 AM, Zella said: I'd also wondered in the moment if the old lady's story about the other wife was meant to pick at Elizabeth concerning Martha and/or Irina. On a rewatch, I've noticed the show is really good at sneaking in subplots that connect so well to the main themes and storylines that I never caught the first time around. I was thinking about this and I wondered if maybe the point was it almost didn't matter which specific other woman Elizabeth was thinking of, since her jealousy comes more from worrying she's inadequate than a particular woman being great. On 7/26/2022 at 3:50 AM, Zella said: Well, think She is jealous because she is worried she is inadequate. We can see it several times along the show. This is why I’m a Sistermagpie fan!! Spoiler On 7/26/2022 at 4:29 AM, sistermagpie said: Answering also under spoilers: Hide contents Yeah, I really notice on rewatch how there's a reason Philip's operations go on for years while Elizabeth's are short-lived. Her characters don't adapt to peoples' changing situations or see problems coming. In S6 especially she's just strong-arming everyone and in some cases, like with the general, you can see it's just the worst way to go about it. The funny thing is at the time people said that the general was originally Philip's source but he wasn't even--it was Elizabeth who was supposed to go to that meeting. But in that one meeting Philip got where the guy was coming from. He would probably have told Elizabeth about it, at least. I think he even brings it up immediately when she mentions the guy. Nothing is going right for her in that last season and she just keeps trying to punch harder through it. It's not that she's bad at her job, but with both of them their strengths have weaknesses that go with them. One of the things that makes Elizabeth able to continue spying so long is she just follows orders and trusts the Centre, and cuts herself off from thinking or feeling too much. But eventually that doesn't just burn her out, but she so ruthlessly forbids herself from seeing things she doesn't want to see, she finally does become worse at her job. That also just made me think of another interesting connection. When Elizabeth starts burning out she gets more violent, punching and shooting her way out of every problem, while while the biggest sign to Elizabeth that Philip has really had enough is when he can't shoot Natalie. I would like only one thing: Spoiler We must consider that Elizabeth is over committed. And she was honest when she admitted her mistake. JJ really put a lot of pressure on her. Ops…. I swear Betty’s age wasn’t a problem for me. I just didn’t notice it! Edited July 27, 2022 by Andy73 Link to comment
Zella July 27, 2022 Share July 27, 2022 (edited) I just have 2 more episodes to go for the show, and the last half of the final season is just so good. I always argue that The Americans has the best final episode I've ever watched, but I should probably amend that to just final season. They're firing on all cylinders. Spoiler I also really love how angry Elizabeth is when Philip admits to her he's been informing the Center about her work that season. Because she herself has filed many a report over the year about Philip. But even as mad and hurt as she is, she takes his criticism about her just mindlessly following orders to heart and finally asks questions. I would also like to amend my complaint about Elizabeth being hard on people with sensitive gag reflexes. That pill scene is awful but pales next to what she does with that paint brush in season 6. Goddamn. On 7/25/2022 at 9:29 PM, sistermagpie said: I also remembering disagreeing with someone on how bad he was supposed to be as an agent. He doesn't seem like a screw-up or anything to me, but it seems like he's very much average compared to both Stan (who has his own problems) and Adderholt. Yeah I don't think he's intended to be incompetent. I always got the impression that one of Amador's biggest problems is he is lazy and complacent. Though it is definitely tinged with jealousy, he seems to pick up on the fact something is up with Martha in season 1, long before even Stan twigs to something being wrong. Of course, he knew Martha better since they'd dated, but it seems to be the only thing that activates his investigator instincts because he's petty and jealous. As for Adlerholt, I rarely remember him when listing my favorite characters for the show, but rewatching has reminded me how much I enjoy his character. I think he's far and away the most grounded FBI agent we see on the show. He has his personal shit together way more than Stan, even though he's also divorced when we first meet him, and he seems to lack Gaad's temper. He can also be really weirdly funny. Edited July 27, 2022 by Zella Link to comment
Andy73 July 27, 2022 Share July 27, 2022 3 hours ago, Zella said: I just have 2 more episodes to go for the show, and the last half of the final season is just so good. I always argue that The Americans has the best final episode I've ever watched, but I should probably amend that to just final season. They're firing on all cylinders. I loved all the final season. I mean, I was sad about Elizabeth: Spoiler Too much missions… to much pressure on her. And she makes many mistakes. She misses Philip terribly at job. She misses him as a job partner… (do you remeber what she said to Tuan in S5 about how work alone could be difficult?) She misses him as a partner… it’s very heavy for her couldn’t share everything with him. They were very good in their job… but they were together! Adlerholt is by far the best detective in FBI 1 Link to comment
sistermagpie July 27, 2022 Share July 27, 2022 On 7/26/2022 at 11:48 AM, Andy73 said: Unlike many other guys , I liked this episode. I remember it well! I liked it for intense emotion I feel. I know Betty could seem fake because she is too calm in the face of death… To me the issue was more that it seemed like everything out of her mouth was just too perfectly reflecting something in Elizabeth. Also, it's funny that at the time that episode was set up as if it was going to be a big game changer for Elizabeth but it wasn't. At least, not the way we would expect. Because it's true, as you say, that she's very upset by what she has to do. It seems like we kept expecting Elizabeth to start to change the way Philip does, but instead, every encounter she has like this convinces her to avoid feeling anything for other people. She thinks that's the way to avoid going soft the way Philip does, but it really just makes her brittle. But it's also exactly what Claudia and Gregory tell her to do. 4 hours ago, Zella said: Hide contents I also really love how angry Elizabeth is when Philip admits to her he's been informing the Center about her work that season. Because she herself has filed many a report over the year about Philip. But even as mad and hurt as she is, she takes his criticism about her just mindlessly following orders to heart and finally asks questions. Spoiler That whole ending is so fascinating because while Philip does right in confessing to her without getting caught and she's angry, by that point he has come into himself and knows what he's doing so he's not really sorry. Sorry for lying, but not regretting what he's doing. So even while she's angry, she's got to be realizing that he's 1) acting on the very values she acts on and 2) saving her from being manipulated into a coup. She goes into that scene not realizing just how much everything's changed. She starts out thinking okay, she dragged Philip into chopping up a body and now he's traumatized again but she'll promise not to do it again etc. But instead he's fine with the body chopping--didn't like it, but chose to do it and knew why. No, really it's that he's got this whole other thing going on and is the one with a clue. I mean, Elizabeth thinks she's already working for the Centre in the form of Claudia and her crew, and Team Oleg are actually the ones who are flying without a net here, sneaking around in the shadows. There sort of is not one Centre at this point. She's right in calling bullshit and Philip claiming he tried to tell her as if he couldn't have told her if he really wanted to (he LOVES to talk!), you can see why he thought she might be in on the plot on purpose and she did make it hard to trust her or want to open up to her. Even if she wasn't in on it, he had reason to ask himself if she wouldn't do what he wanted with the information. He had to pick a side of hardliners vs. reformers and support them. But still, even if he's the person she feels wronged her here, he's actually the one ally she has. Her own team is an illusion. 4 hours ago, Zella said: Yeah I don't think he's intended to be incompetent. I always got the impression that one of Amador's biggest problems is he is lazy and complacent. Though it is definitely tinged with jealousy, he seems to pick up on the fact something is up with Martha in season 1, long before even Stan twigs to something being wrong. Of course, he knew Martha better since they'd dated, but it seems to be the only thing that activates his investigator instincts because he's petty and jealous. Yes, that's exactly it. There's just so many times when Gaad seems to be correcting that in him, whether it's bristling at Amador seeming to be trying to protect him from his mistakes when they lose Joyce Ramirez or when Amador thinks searching all the DMVs to find Robert's identity is ridiculous. I remember, for instance, that it was pointed out that Amador was right in saying they should have just arrested Joyce, but I disagree. Gaad was right that she didn't know anything and was only valuable if they followed her--that they lost her didn't really change that. He also does basically blunder into his own death. I know some thought he was being a great agent in being suspicious of Martha, but it seems like his main suspicion is that she's with some other guy (while he's sleeping around, natch). If he really thought this guy was trouble he shouldn't have confronted him the way he did. 4 hours ago, Zella said: As for Adlerholt, I rarely remember him when listing my favorite characters for the show, but rewatching has reminded me how much I enjoy his character. I think he's far and away the most grounded FBI agent we see on the show. He has his personal shit together way more than Stan, even though he's also divorced when we first meet him, and he seems to lack Gaad's temper. He can also be really weirdly funny. He can! One of my biggest laughs is when William's dying and makes a big speech and Adderholt asks if he'd like a coke. Classic! 1 1 Link to comment
Zella July 27, 2022 Share July 27, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, Andy73 said: Adlerholt is by far the best detective in FBI Yes I agree. And he also seems like a pretty solid manager, which isn't always a given when someone is promoted to be one. And I think his agent-handling skills are more solid than Stan's, if only because he doesn't seem to be as prone to emotional attachment while still being able to work with them and get them to trust him. 54 minutes ago, sistermagpie said: I know some thought he was being a great agent in being suspicious of Martha, but it seems like his main suspicion is that she's with some other guy (while he's sleeping around, natch). I think it's largely jealousy that causes that, but the way he is looking at her when he catches her at the file cabinet in the episode before he dies makes me think he may have had some light suspicions. She'd just been photocopying files for Clark, and she does act kind of jumpy. When I first watched the show, I wrote it off as him having no suspicions whatsoever, but that scene has made me wonder. I think another of Amador's biggest problems is he thought he was a bigger badass than he actually was, so he really has no clue if Martha just has a new boyfriend or if it's something deeper, but he thinks he can swagger in as a lone wolf and nip it in the bud either way. 54 minutes ago, sistermagpie said: He can! One of my biggest laughs is when William's dying and makes a big speech and Adderholt asks if he'd like a coke. Classic! 😂😂😂😂 I love that scene! I also love when Stan is fretting about where to take Renee to make a good impression, and Aderholt suggests some restaurant and tells him, "It has a see-through grand piano. What else you need to know?" His line delivery makes me laugh so hard. Edited July 27, 2022 by Zella Link to comment
sistermagpie July 28, 2022 Share July 28, 2022 (edited) 4 hours ago, Zella said: Yes I agree. And he also seems like a pretty solid manager, which isn't always a given when someone is promoted to be one. And I think his agent-handling skills are more solid than Stan's, if only because he doesn't seem to be as prone to emotional attachment while still being able to work with them and get them to trust him. Yes--Stan already went through a period in S4 where everyone in the office hated him because of the way he goes off and does his own thing and gets promoted for it--and he's not even doing it out of patriotism like the Deputy AD is ready to believe. I guess Adderholt also had to work on being inoffensive as the only black agent. Adderholt had his own way of being the only non-white person there. I still love the moment when Walter Taffet asks if anyone in the office seems to resent Adderholt because he's...new. But yeah, from the beginning he seems to really have his head on straight about the Illegals, telling Stan that they're just people, even if they're really great spies. It's another interesting wrinkle the way Stan is so threatened by him at first. Not because he makes a good impression on Gaad, imo, but because he so innocently suggests Nina might not have been all Stan thought she was. 4 hours ago, Zella said: I think it's largely jealousy that causes that, but the way he is looking at her when he catches her at the file cabinet in the episode before he dies makes me think he may have had some light suspicions. She'd just been photocopying files for Clark, and she does act kind of jumpy. When I first watched the show, I wrote it off as him having no suspicions whatsoever, but that scene has made me wonder. I think another of Amador's biggest problems is he thought he was a bigger badass than he actually was, so he really has no clue if Martha just has a new boyfriend or if it's something deeper, but he thinks he can swagger in as a lone wolf and nip it in the bud either way. Yeah, when I watch the scene now I do wonder if he was also suspicious. After all, he does, I think, say to Clark something like "What are you doing here?" But still, even if he is toying with the idea that the guy is up to no good, he handles him and the situation stupidly. So I do wind up thinking that it's mostly jealousy on his part rather than really having a hunch that Martha's being used. I mean, I think his jealousy could be making him want that to be true rather than it just coming from Martha being jumpy. It just occurs to me too that Amador's another good example of someone having a cover--he's such a hound dog it never occurs to even Stan of the amazing hunches to think twice about Martha telling him that Amador was asking her out again right before he was killed. Not that I think he was secretly devoted to Martha--seems like he probably wanted to have some cake and eat it too, there. But it's the type of thing that Stan sometimes connects or thinks about. 4 hours ago, Zella said: 😂😂😂😂 I love that scene! I also love when Stan is fretting about where to take Renee to make a good impression, and Aderholt suggests some restaurant and tells him, "It has a see-through grand piano. What else you need to know?" His line delivery makes me laugh so hard. LOL. And he's got a dog. Snuffy. Edited July 28, 2022 by sistermagpie 1 Link to comment
Zella July 28, 2022 Share July 28, 2022 53 minutes ago, sistermagpie said: I guess Adderholt also had to work on being inoffensive as the only black agent. Adderholt had his own way of being the only non-white person there. I still love the moment when Walter Taffet asks if anyone in the office seems to resent Adderholt because he's...new. But yeah, from the beginning he seems to really have his head on straight about the Illegals, telling Stan that they're just people, even if they're really great spies. It's another interesting wrinkle the way Stan is so threatened by him at first. Not because he makes a good impression on Gaad, imo, but because he so innocently suggests Nina might not have been all Stan thought she was. Yes I really love the way he handles Taffet! I honestly hadn't remembered the information about his childhood that came out in that interview, and I loved how seamlessly Dennis pivots away from it and dismisses that line of questioning but without seeming like he's hiding anything. It's really interesting to me to compare how Amador reacts to Stan showing up and suddenly being Gaad's new pet and how Stan handles Dennis doing the same thing. I think Amador himself accepted that eventually Stan was more intuitive than he was and that of course Gaad was going to treat him like his right hand over it. And with Dennis, he also wasn't showing off or trying to be Gaad's pet--he just was legitimately good at his job and had experience with dealing with Illegals, and Stan himself had a history of pissing Gaad off--so it shouldn't have surprised Stan that Gaad started freezing him out, but he is so childishly petty about it at first. I know Stan has a lot of cringy moments (and I say this as someone who actually likes Stan as a character), but I think one of the most unflattering is when he is ranting to Philip at racquetball about the Black guy at work who asks a lot of questions. Like it's the most unreasonable and audacious thing a coworker could do. Philip seems absolutely baffled how to respond, and as clueless as Stan generally is, he even seems to realize that what he is saying makes him look and sound like an asshole. I did like that Stan moved past that and they became pretty good friends. 1 hour ago, sistermagpie said: Not that I think he was secretly devoted to Martha--seems like he probably wanted to have some cake and eat it too, there. I agree. I think Amador had a pretty shitty attitude toward her--that Martha was just this dowdy spinster (which a lot of the office seemed to have)--who should have been grateful for his attention, and when she turned him down, his fragile little ego was pretty shattered. So, it was fine for him to move on to other women, in his eyes, but it wasn't okay for Martha to do that. I suspect he viewed her as some safe option he could always return to when he wanted because she was never going to say no. And I actually think that informs whatever suspicions he may have about her--if Martha is getting some action elsewhere, the guy must have an ulterior motive. 1 hour ago, sistermagpie said: And he's got a dog. Snuffy. I forgot about Snuffy--it's a great dog name! 2 Link to comment
Paloma July 28, 2022 Share July 28, 2022 9 hours ago, Zella said: I think Amador had a pretty shitty attitude toward her--that Martha was just this dowdy spinster (which a lot of the office seemed to have)--who should have been grateful for his attention, and when she turned him down, his fragile little ego was pretty shattered. This reminds me of a question I had about the tape "Clark" played for Martha to convince her to keep helping him spy on the office after she said she liked the people she worked with and didn't feel right about spying. (I can't remember if this was in the first or second season.) The tape he ultimately played for Martha was edited to sound over-the-top insulting, but IIRC even the original tape was insulting and therefore showed that the men in the office really didn't respect her. I'm assuming that the original tape was real and not somehow patched together with words from other conversations. What did you all think about that tape? 2 Link to comment
Zella July 28, 2022 Share July 28, 2022 2 hours ago, Paloma said: This reminds me of a question I had about the tape "Clark" played for Martha to convince her to keep helping him spy on the office after she said she liked the people she worked with and didn't feel right about spying. (I can't remember if this was in the first or second season.) The tape he ultimately played for Martha was edited to sound over-the-top insulting, but IIRC even the original tape was insulting and therefore showed that the men in the office really didn't respect her. I'm assuming that the original tape was real and not somehow patched together with words from other conversations. What did you all think about that tape? Yeah the tape was something I was thinking about when I commented on the office-wide attitude about Martha. If I'm not mistaken, I think the biggest thing about the edit is it makes Gaad seem like more of a participant in the conversation. I think in the original he lets the conversation go on too long and seems to agree through silence that Martha is unattractive, but I don't recall him actually insulting her and he does finally tell them to stop. In the remix, he is one of the main offenders with the insults, which I think hurt her more than the others saying that because she had been defending Gaad as a good guy as an excuse to stop helping Clark. 1 Link to comment
sistermagpie July 28, 2022 Share July 28, 2022 15 hours ago, Zella said: Yes I really love the way he handles Taffet! I honestly hadn't remembered the information about his childhood that came out in that interview, and I loved how seamlessly Dennis pivots away from it and dismisses that line of questioning but without seeming like he's hiding anything. I had forgotten that more about him comes out when they're looking for Martha. He mentions being raised Catholic, but that it mostly meant his dad dragging him and his brother to church when they did something wrong. It was a great little moment. 15 hours ago, Zella said: It's really interesting to me to compare how Amador reacts to Stan showing up and suddenly being Gaad's new pet and how Stan handles Dennis doing the same thing. I think Amador himself accepted that eventually Stan was more intuitive than he was and that of course Gaad was going to treat him like his right hand over it. And with Dennis, he also wasn't showing off or trying to be Gaad's pet--he just was legitimately good at his job and had experience with dealing with Illegals, and Stan himself had a history of pissing Gaad off--so it shouldn't have surprised Stan that Gaad started freezing him out, but he is so childishly petty about it at first. Yeah, one of Amador's good points is that he seems to be just fine being one of the beta agents at work. As he says flat-out to Stan, it doesn't bother him that Stan gets so much more attention very quickly and I think he's genuinely impressed when he learns about Stan's star past. So even though he starts off showing Stan the ropes (and it's obvious he's not particularly good at the ropes--like his Russian isn't any better than Stan's, practically, but he quizzes him with jellybeans) he's not jealous when Stan surpasses him. He seems happy to just be the office character without being the star agent. It's also funny how he says how he's like a brilliant agent because he has no wife, no kids, no hobbies or distractions...except women. Which is, like, the worst possible distraction in his line of work. 15 hours ago, Zella said: I know Stan has a lot of cringy moments (and I say this as someone who actually likes Stan as a character), but I think one of the most unflattering is when he is ranting to Philip at racquetball about the Black guy at work who asks a lot of questions. Like it's the most unreasonable and audacious thing a coworker could do. Philip seems absolutely baffled how to respond, and as clueless as Stan generally is, he even seems to realize that what he is saying makes him look and sound like an asshole. I did like that Stan moved past that and they became pretty good friends. That scene with Philip is so funny--very different from when he's later complaining about the Munchkins. It's amazing to think that the whole Walter Taffet thing even only really happens because Stan's being a jealous idiot. He's literally on the phone resentfully confirming a dental appointment for his defector, sees Gaad talking to Adderholt and makes up something Gaad needs to sign right away--leading to the pen being found. (By Adderholt.) I feel too, though, that some of Stan's anxiety comes from how Adderholt really does figure out right away that Stan was having an affair with Nina and that it compromised him. He tries to see it as Adderholt trying to make himself look good, but he's just right! 15 hours ago, Zella said: I agree. I think Amador had a pretty shitty attitude toward her--that Martha was just this dowdy spinster (which a lot of the office seemed to have)--who should have been grateful for his attention, and when she turned him down, his fragile little ego was pretty shattered. So, it was fine for him to move on to other women, in his eyes, but it wasn't okay for Martha to do that. I suspect he viewed her as some safe option he could always return to when he wanted because she was never going to say no. And I actually think that informs whatever suspicions he may have about her--if Martha is getting some action elsewhere, the guy must have an ulterior motive. I forgot about Snuffy--it's a great dog name! One of my favorite throwaway lines is when Amador surprises Martha copying those files and he makes a reference to something since they broke up and Martha says, "We didn't break up." It's impossible to understand exactly what she's referring to, but I have no doubt it involves Adderholt being an entitled jerk. I wonder if maybe Martha had gone back with him more than once and he can tell something's up by the way she's standing firm now that she's with Clark. 5 hours ago, Paloma said: This reminds me of a question I had about the tape "Clark" played for Martha to convince her to keep helping him spy on the office after she said she liked the people she worked with and didn't feel right about spying. (I can't remember if this was in the first or second season.) The tape he ultimately played for Martha was edited to sound over-the-top insulting, but IIRC even the original tape was insulting and therefore showed that the men in the office really didn't respect her. I'm assuming that the original tape was real and not somehow patched together with words from other conversations. What did you all think about that tape? I can't remember it exactly, but iirc, one of the things that's changed for Gaad is that he originally says, "Martha's a good girl" because they were talking about Martha cracking the whip about the files on office protocol. Philip changed it to have Gaad say, "Martha's ugly." I remembered the ep it was in, so found the actual dialogue. The original tape says this: Gaad: Oh, come on, guys. Martha's not so bad. I don't know, sir. Look, my first boss said I should hire an ugly old lady so I'd have to be 10 scotches deep before I'd touch her. He'd do an ugly old lady with 10 scotches. An ugly old lady? Ew. Maybe 10 scotches and a bag over her head. Gaad: All right, men, Martha's a good girl. Leave her alone. I can't remember i that "my first boss" part is Gaad or not, but it doesn't sound like him. Philip changes it to this: Oh, come on, guys. Martha's ugly. I'd have to be 10 scotches deep - before I'd touch her. - Ew. 10 scotches and a bag over her head. 1 1 Link to comment
Zella July 28, 2022 Share July 28, 2022 I finished my rewatch last night. Watching it without knowing what was going to happen the first time around was devastating, but knowing somehow made it even more wrenching. Basically every scene Oleg was in for the entire season made me want to cry. And I'm not a crier. Also just in general on a rewatch, I am much more sympathetic to Paige than I was the first time around. Also I remembered quite a bit of those last 2 episodes differently than it really was. Spoiler tagging to avoid ruining things for folks further behind me on the rewatch: Spoiler I'd forgotten how strongly Elizabeth reacted when Philip first said they needed to leave Henry behind. I think she'd probably figured that after things slowed down she could mend fences with Henry and make up for lost time, so the sudden realization that was not happening really got her. I also noticed Henry seemed colder on the phone with her than he did Philip, which makes sense, but that didn't register last time. On the flip side, I'd remembered her last chat with Claudia as angrier than it actually was. It was interesting to me that, despite how bad their relationship was at times and the fact that Claudia had lied to her and betrayed her trust really severely, I don't think Elizabeth was actually mad at her anymore. I've seen a lot of speculation in various discussion forums--not necessarily here--that the ending is not really so unhappy since Philip and Elizabeth end up still having each other, but I have to say that the posture for both of them throughout the entire episode is about the most defeated I've ever seen them look. Even when they're finally back home staring at Moscow, they don't seem celebratory or joyful. I do think they loved each other very much at that point--Elizabeth wouldn't have grabbed those wedding rings when she was getting the hell of dodge if she didn't love him--but I imagine domestic life in a country that was soon to collapse between two people who'd never had a normal domestic existence and without their two kids was going to be really hard. I've also seen a lot of speculation that Paige would probably not fall under too much suspicion since only Stan knew that she knew, and he likely wouldn't rat her out. I'd actually tended to agree with this line of reasoning, at least the part that only Stan knew and he wouldn't tell. I felt like any job requiring a security clearance would be a no because of her parents and she'd be watched closely to see if she contacted her parents, but I assumed that after a tentative investigation she'd be cleared. But I realized this time around that the FBI knows something is up with Paige. Dennis even mentions to Stan that the FBI is watching all of their residences (the family home, Paige's apartment, and Henry's school), and Henry is the only one who is where he is supposed to be. So, even if she pops back up, they'll know she disappeared for a significant amount of time right when her fugitive spy parents bolted. I imagine they will lean on her very hard about that time she is missing. After having had multiple conversations on here about how Stan's emotions make him a bad agent handler, it was really fascinating to watch Philip work Stan in that garage. I don't think Philip was being insincere with Stan in the things he said, but it's clear that he is still playing on his emotions. I noticed what finally stunned Stan into silence and stepping aside was them talking about Henry and Philip even telling him that he had to take care of Henry. Something I did remember but was equally devastating on a rewatch was the way Stan's voice cracked when he asked if Henry had known and the way Philip's voice equally cracked when he said he was going to have to abandon his son. On a lighter note, one of my absolute favorite moments in the show is the last few minutes of season 6, episode 9. I love how Philip starts running like a track star once he realizes the priest is likely being watched and flushes out the surveillance and that phone call where he finally uses the code that means they have to leave. "“I was hoping to make it home for dinner, but things are very topsy turvy at the office.” Topsy turvy indeed. Also as tense as that garage standoff is, I couldn't help but laugh a little at how frustrated Stan was that Elizabeth and Philip didn't recognize any of the names he used, like Oleg Burov. LOL Like, come on, Stan, that's basic tradecraft. They don't use real names!!!!! 1 Link to comment
Zella July 28, 2022 Share July 28, 2022 12 minutes ago, sistermagpie said: except women. Which is, like, the worst possible distraction in his line of work. For real. Can you say "honeytrap," Amador? LOL 14 minutes ago, sistermagpie said: That scene with Philip is so funny--very different from when he's later complaining about the Munchkins. It's amazing to think that the whole Walter Taffet thing even only really happens because Stan's being a jealous idiot. He's literally on the phone resentfully confirming a dental appointment for his defector, sees Gaad talking to Adderholt and makes up something Gaad needs to sign right away--leading to the pen being found. (By Adderholt.) I feel too, though, that some of Stan's anxiety comes from how Adderholt really does figure out right away that Stan was having an affair with Nina and that it compromised him. He tries to see it as Adderholt trying to make himself look good, but he's just right! Yes that's right about the jealousy being what prompts that entire scenario--I'd forgotten that! The pen discovery is one of my favorite scenes in the entire show. I love how they all quietly lean forward to look at it and then it cuts to Martha seeing them fiddling with the pen and closing the blinds. And yes I think you're right about Stan. He almost reminds me of teenaged coworker I have who constantly talks about a "friend" who is actually her boyfriend but then she's shocked when she finally admitted he's a boyfriend, and we were all like, "Girl, we know. We KNOW." LOL I think he thinks he's being super stealthy and nobody will ever suspect he was compromised with Nina, but Dennis picks up on it right away. And honestly I think Gaad has his strong suspicions too. 17 minutes ago, sistermagpie said: I can't remember it exactly, but iirc, one of the things that's changed for Gaad is that he originally says, "Martha's a good girl" because they were talking about Martha cracking the whip about the files on office protocol. Philip changed it to have Gaad say, "Martha's ugly." Thank you for transcribing the conversation! I remembered him stopping it by saying she was a good girl, but I didn't remember he initially said she wasn't so bad. 1 Link to comment
sistermagpie July 28, 2022 Share July 28, 2022 41 minutes ago, Zella said: I finished my rewatch last night. Watching it without knowing what was going to happen the first time around was devastating, but knowing somehow made it even more wrenching. Basically every scene Oleg was in for the entire season made me want to cry. And I'm not a crier. Also just in general on a rewatch, I am much more sympathetic to Paige than I was the first time around. Also I remembered quite a bit of those last 2 episodes differently than it really was. Spoiler tagging to avoid ruining things for folks further behind me on the rewatch: 32 minutes ago, Zella said: Yes that's right about the jealousy being what prompts that entire scenario--I'd forgotten that! The pen discovery is one of my favorite scenes in the entire show. I love how they all quietly lean forward to look at it and then it cuts to Martha seeing them fiddling with the pen and closing the blinds. That scene is such an amazing pay off and it comes out of nowhere. Total surprise. Though when I think of the best set up/surprise, which is a little different, is when Elizabeth walks into the safehouse and sees Philip and realizes he's shown Martha his true face...and at the same moment we, the audience, realize he never told her he did that. 32 minutes ago, Zella said: And yes I think you're right about Stan. He almost reminds me of teenaged coworker I have who constantly talks about a "friend" who is actually her boyfriend but then she's shocked when she finally admitted he's a boyfriend, and we were all like, "Girl, we know. We KNOW." LOL I think he thinks he's being super stealthy and nobody will ever suspect he was compromised with Nina, but Dennis picks up on it right away. And honestly I think Gaad has his strong suspicions too. LOL. Remember Gaad reminding him that Nina was a spy who could eat them for breakfast and then says, "Has she already had you for breakfast, Stan?" There's so many ways that Stan is vulnerable. Spoiler talk Quote Spoiler Quote I'd forgotten how strongly Elizabeth reacted when Philip first said they needed to leave Henry behind. I think she'd probably figured that after things slowed down she could mend fences with Henry and make up for lost time, so the sudden realization that was not happening really got her. I also noticed Henry seemed colder on the phone with her than he did Philip, which makes sense, but that didn't register last time. The more I think back on S6 (hope you're still around when I get to it in a year-LOL! Is Harvest's death scene. There's no reason for us to be listening to anything about this guy's family except that he's talking to two people who are about to lose their children like his parents did. His feelings about his parents--which were probably more complex during his life--are flattened into two extremes for each parent at his death. And I feel like while there's nothing subtle in what he's saying, it's actually laying in something far more complex to think about. Because during the time jump between the two seasons P&E started making such different decisions with the kids. They'd always had different philosophies and the kids could see them as different, but they're really separate about it at the end, but it's a bit harder to see because they're already empty-nesters. It's not like when people could just see Stan as the great parent because he's watching movies with Henry (though of course he still gets that in S6!). But like, if you look at that last Thanksgiving break, Elizabeth can barely talk to Henry by then and her relationship with Paige is all about her job, which she's lying to her about. Then she leaves before Thanksgiving dinner because of the job. Philip leaves early because Elizabeth's life is in danger but although he expected to have more time with Henry during that break, he had already taken a day off to spend with him. This is why Elizabeth is the one that gets that gut-punch with both kids when they lose them. Philip lets Henry go because he knows it's best for him, and probably thinks it would be best for Paige too, but Elizabeth,has not only been making more destructive relationship decisions with the kids, she's been in denial about what she's doing and how much time she'll have to fix it. And it seems like kids even say things that kind of echo Harvest's sentiments at different points. Like Paige saying she should have done what Henry did and gotten as far away from Elizabeth as possible. Or Henry saying that while work came first for both his parents (an attitude he seems to have inherited no matter how much he's complaining about it), his dad "makes the effort." So it's fitting that even on the plane ride home Elizabeth's already having nightmares about telling Gregory she didn't want a kid anyway. Quote Spoiler Quote On the flip side, I'd remembered her last chat with Claudia as angrier than it actually was. It was interesting to me that, despite how bad their relationship was at times and the fact that Claudia had lied to her and betrayed her trust really severely, I don't think Elizabeth was actually mad at her anymore. Yes, it seems like the opposite to me. Maybe part of the idea is that Elizabeth has...I don't know what the right term would be to use. In S1 she was imagining Claudia out to get her, but she seems to be seeing her more clearly here. Maybe she's believing everything Claudia is saying about how she's the one who's thrown it all away? When Claudia asks what she has left and ends with "Philip?" it seems almost mocking, like he's an even worse joke than her house and American children. Yet Claudia doesn't seem to know that Philip is in fact the one who not only got her caught but that he told Elizabeth the truth and apologized for not doing it sooner while Claudia lies unrepentently. Spoiler Quote I've seen a lot of speculation in various discussion forums--not necessarily here--that the ending is not really so unhappy since Philip and Elizabeth end up still having each other, but I have to say that the posture for both of them throughout the entire episode is about the most defeated I've ever seen them look. Even when they're finally back home staring at Moscow, they don't seem celebratory or joyful. I do think they loved each other very much at that point--Elizabeth wouldn't have grabbed those wedding rings when she was getting the hell of dodge if she didn't love him--but I imagine domestic life in a country that was soon to collapse between two people who'd never had a normal domestic existence and without their two kids was going to be really hard. Yes--though I feel like they're lucky that the skills they have re: working together will transfer to this situation. They started their relationship learning to co-exist in a strange land where they felt isolated. I still find it nice how Elizabeth, in fact, is the one making the most romantic gestures at the end there. Maybe because everything that's just happened to her proved that she can and should love this guy, even when he's doing something she doesn't like. Spoiler Quote I've also seen a lot of speculation that Paige would probably not fall under too much suspicion since only Stan knew that she knew, and he likely wouldn't rat her out. I'd actually tended to agree with this line of reasoning, at least the part that only Stan knew and he wouldn't tell. I felt like any job requiring a security clearance would be a no because of her parents and she'd be watched closely to see if she contacted her parents, but I assumed that after a tentative investigation she'd be cleared. But I realized this time around that the FBI knows something is up with Paige. Dennis even mentions to Stan that the FBI is watching all of their residences (the family home, Paige's apartment, and Henry's school), and Henry is the only one who is where he is supposed to be. So, even if she pops back up, they'll know she disappeared for a significant amount of time right when her fugitive spy parents bolted. I imagine they will lean on her very hard about that time she is missing. Her ending actually reminds me of the ending of a character on Breaking Bad--I won't mention the name in case you haven't seen it--in that it ends on a particular feeling, but when the showrunners talked about it later they said well, yes, the character would probably now be facing a series of big problems. (They eventually made a whole movie about it, in fact!) That's how I feel with Paige and Stan too, in some ways. The show isn't ending with Paige being interrogated, but if there was a seventh season they would just have to deal with the fact that she'd be in big trouble. (Stan's visit to Paige's place, which he already admitted, should absolutely get him in trouble with the door security at her building, for instance.) Not only is Paige not at her building when they're watching it, her whole life has a giant Elizabeth-shaped hole in it and we've already seen she's not prepared to make up an entire alternate adolescence where she didn't learn her parents were spies. She'd have to explain choosing to go to college locally, where she is the many afternoons and nights a week she was with Elizabeth and/or Claudia, what else her mother taught her besides the self-defense moves she showed off in front of two rooms full of people in a bar. It's not like she's got friends to vouche for her. She's dating an intern who bragged about getting her top secret stuff. Plus, if she even tries to come clean--which is more her nature--is she going to accidentally admit to crimes? Presumably she's now allowed herself to understand that Philip was telling her Elizabeth murdered the general, but what about all those warehouse guards? What would really blow up in her face is if she got as far as even asking about that application form to intern at the state department. Spoiler Quote After having had multiple conversations on here about how Stan's emotions make him a bad agent handler, it was really fascinating to watch Philip work Stan in that garage. I don't think Philip was being insincere with Stan in the things he said, but it's clear that he is still playing on his emotions. I noticed what finally stunned Stan into silence and stepping aside was them talking about Henry and Philip even telling him that he had to take care of Henry. Something I did remember but was equally devastating on a rewatch was the way Stan's voice cracked when he asked if Henry had known and the way Philip's voice equally cracked when he said he was going to have to abandon his son. Yes--that's one of those moments that underlines to me how Philip and Elizabeth are experiencing this differently imo. Elizabeth probably isn't anywhere near ready to begin to think about how she feels about losing Henry, but Philip's fully aware of what he's doing. I think he's been preparing for it in some way since Henry went away to school. Another important moment like that, iirc, is when they're telling Paige that Henry is staying. Paige, who's desperately trying to argue them out of it, tells Philip that Henry will hate them and Philip says, "We know that" in a way that shows he means it. I think that's an important moment for Paige, too, actually, because she can actually see that this is a sacrifice Philip is making for Henry's good. Spoiler Quote On a lighter note, one of my absolute favorite moments in the show is the last few minutes of season 6, episode 9. I love how Philip starts running like a track star once he realizes the priest is likely being watched and flushes out the surveillance and that phone call where he finally uses the code that means they have to leave. "“I was hoping to make it home for dinner, but things are very topsy turvy at the office.” Topsy turvy indeed. OMG, that was one of the best moments ever. It makes me think how it's the whole last few episode Philip in control. Someone once described it as Elizabeth "fully submitting" to him--not forever, of course. They're still equals. But Philip's years in therapy and working through stuff is finally over when he figures out what's really right for him to do and once that happens, he's the one everyone starts looking to and following. He gets away from Father Andre, calls in the topsy-turvey signal, says they're leaving Henry and gets them out of the garage. And goes and sits with Elizabeth when Paige jumps ship. Spoiler Quote Also as tense as that garage standoff is, I couldn't help but laugh a little at how frustrated Stan was that Elizabeth and Philip didn't recognize any of the names he used, like Oleg Burov. LOL Like, come on, Stan, that's basic tradecraft. They don't use real names!!!!! LOL! I know, that was so funny. You're from Russia? Do you know...Oleg? Link to comment
Andy73 July 28, 2022 Share July 28, 2022 7 hours ago, Zella said: Yeah the tape was something I was thinking about when I commented on the office-wide attitude about Martha. If I'm not mistaken, I think the biggest thing about the edit is it makes Gaad seem like more of a participant in the conversation. I think in the original he lets the conversation go on too long and seems to agree through silence that Martha is unattractive, but I don't recall him actually insulting her and he does finally tell them to stop. In the remix, he is one of the main offenders with the insults, which I think hurt her more than the others saying that because she had been defending Gaad as a good guy as an excuse to stop helping Clark. I think you are right. Agent Gaad was the real target of the edit. We know Gaad has always been Philip’s target. 1 Link to comment
Zella July 28, 2022 Share July 28, 2022 (edited) Spoiler 3 hours ago, sistermagpie said: OMG, that was one of the best moments ever. It makes me think how it's the whole last few episode Philip in control. Someone once described it as Elizabeth "fully submitting" to him--not forever, of course. They're still equals. But Philip's years in therapy and working through stuff is finally over when he figures out what's really right for him to do and once that happens, he's the one everyone starts looking to and following. He gets away from Father Andre, calls in the topsy-turvey signal, says they're leaving Henry and gets them out of the garage. And goes and sits with Elizabeth when Paige jumps ship. I also noticed that during the garage scene Paige and Elizabeth said very little and frequently looked at Philip when Stan would ask things instead of trying to respond themselves. They were definitely letting him take the lead in a way I'd never seen before. Spoiler 3 hours ago, sistermagpie said: Paige, who's desperately trying to argue them out of it, tells Philip that Henry will hate them and Philip says, "We know that" in a way that shows he means it. I think that's an important moment for Paige, too, actually, because she can actually see that this is a sacrifice Philip is making for Henry's good. Yes I'd forgotten about that "we know that," but thought it was a really powerful line. I never thought them leaving Henry meant they didn't love him, but there's no way that doesn't have a terrible impact on him and make him feel abandoned and unloved. I think he would have absolutely hated Russia, so taking him was clearly no option, but I think it would likely take him a very long time to make peace with that, let alone to not resent them for lying about who they were for his entire life. Spoiler 3 hours ago, sistermagpie said: That's how I feel with Paige and Stan too, in some ways. I really love that the show had the courage to be so open-ended, but I also really worry about what becomes of poor Henry. Ideally, one would like to think that the friend circle he has at the school and Stan would be able to help him out for the next year or so until he turns 18, but I honestly have a hard time not believing that Stan doesn't end up having some sort of nervous breakdown after everything. And I could just easily see the other kids and their families shying away from Henry once it is revealed his parents were Soviet spies. I'm sorry I'm having a hard time reading your comments on Harvest. They seem cut off! But what I could see did make me think of that moment, which I'd already really liked, in a very different way. 3 hours ago, sistermagpie said: Though when I think of the best set up/surprise, which is a little different, is when Elizabeth walks into the safehouse and sees Philip and realizes he's shown Martha his true face...and at the same moment we, the audience, realize he never told her he did that. Yes that is a great moment! On this rewatch, it also dawned on me that Philip's reaction to finding out that Elizabeth had told Gregory who she was and her background was really devastating to him on a personal level because it meant she had violated procedure, which she never does, but also because it was an intimacy she'd never had with him, at least until then. Like, I got that it was hurtful, but I didn't really appreciate the full extent of it. I remember at the time of my rewatch thinking, "Oooh this is how she feels when she finds out Martha has seen his face!" I also loved that scene when he finally reveals his face to her. I had no clue what he was getting ready to do, and it almost seemed like something out of a horror movie. But it worked! Incidentally, I have wondered if Elizabeth concealed the extent of her relationship with Gregory in her reports. When he finally dies, the discussion is around how he was her first recruit, nothing at all about a personal relationship between them. So, it seems like she wasn't reporting on the sex like she would have with any other asset. Edited July 28, 2022 by Zella Link to comment
sistermagpie July 29, 2022 Share July 29, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, Zella said: Hide contents I really love that the show had the courage to be so open-ended, but I also really worry about what becomes of poor Henry. Ideally, one would like to think that the friend circle he has at the school and Stan would be able to help him out for the next year or so until he turns 18, but I honestly have a hard time not believing that Stan doesn't end up having some sort of nervous breakdown after everything. And I could just easily see the other kids and their families shying away from Henry once it is revealed his parents were Soviet spies. Spoiler It's funny, we had a whole talk about that at the time and based on what we've seen it doesn't even seem to me like everyone would have to know they were spies, since it's not like the FBI ever advertised any of the other people they discovered were Illegals. Jared Connors' life isn't affected at all by that revelation. But I also tend to feel like Henry's whole last storyline is about how he'll be okay in a practical sense. He'll be at school for this year, then spend the summer working at the place where he said he was going to work to make money, then spend his last year at school and graduate. It's part of why Philip can't justify taking him to Russia. Not that it won't be hard for him. I just tend to picture it being hard in a more internal way. Like I can imagine him being very successful--because he's relentlessly chasing success to not deal with how he feels. In S5 it seemed like there were a lot of little hints about how he was following in Philip's footsteps without realizing it, so he may wind up hitting a wall around the same time Philip did! I think he's going to be screwed up by this even as an adult. I just feel like it will be somewhat buried and so even more complicated. I do think, too, that the whole thing will make things awkward between him and Stan as well--just that it wouldn't be so easy as Stan stepping in smoothly etc. There'd be a lot of complex emotions there too, imo, and I don't think they'd both just be eager to spend lots of time together hugging it out or whatever. But that's me--I just tend to really see Henry responding to everything by losing himself in the world he found in school. It makes me think, too, of the impression I've gotten on rewatch about how people tended to insist that Stan was Henry's substitute father because he didn't have one, when to me it seems like having Philip as a Dad he's close to has made Henry very comfortable around older male figures. So he tends to pick up mentors like Stan, Matthew, Chris's Dad, the hockey coach etc. His track record with women, otoh, is pretty bad. He seems to always be liking someone who's out of his reach for whatever reason. Hmm...who does that sound like? LOL. 2 hours ago, Zella said: Yes that is a great moment! On this rewatch, it also dawned on me that Philip's reaction to finding out that Elizabeth had told Gregory who she was and her background was really devastating to him on a personal level because it meant she had violated procedure, which she never does, but also because it was an intimacy she'd never had with him, at least until then. Like, I got that it was hurtful, but I didn't really appreciate the full extent of it. I remember at the time of my rewatch thinking, "Oooh this is how she feels when she finds out Martha has seen his face!" Oh, I'm sure Philip already knew Gregory knew her background before the episode named for him and that it wasn't a big deal to him that Gregory knew that they were Soviet spies etc. when he did find out years earlier. Elizabeth may have even told him she was going to do it before she did it. That was common knowledge among everyone they worked with, it seemed--like I assume Elizabeth knows that Charles Deluth had seen Philip's face. Philip knows already, for instance, that Elizabeth deals with Gregory without a disguise. I don't think she violated procedure with any of that. Claudia knows about it too. I think what Philip didn't realize was that Elizabeth told Gregory about *their* life. In this case, ironically, it wasn't that Gregory knew she was from Smolensk but that he knew she was Elizabeth Jennings with two kids and a fake husband she was forced to have sex with to have children she didn't want. All these years Gregory had known a lot more about *Philip's* private life with Elizabeth than he'd ever dreamed, and that would be not only hurtful, imo, but humiliating. Charles Deluth has seen Philip's face and knows he's a Russian spy (I assume), but I'll bet he doesn't know anything about his kids. The Martha situation was different, imo, not because Philip had decided to show someone his face--he'd done that with Charles Deluth too--but that he'd kept it a secret. And not just from Gabriel (who accepts that he did it as Philip's prerogative but is annoyed about it) but from Elizabeth, who interpreted it as Philip wanting it to be "real" with Martha. 2 hours ago, Zella said: I also loved that scene when he finally reveals his face to her. I had no clue what he was getting ready to do, and it almost seemed like something out of a horror movie. But it worked! That's exactly how I always thought of it! It's a total horror movie, which is bizarre since we all already know what he looks like under the wig. Yet it still seems like he's peeling his face off and there's a lizard under there--Martha certainly sells that she's thinking that. 2 hours ago, Zella said: Incidentally, I have wondered if Elizabeth concealed the extent of her relationship with Gregory in her reports. When he finally dies, the discussion is around how he was her first recruit, nothing at all about a personal relationship between them. So, it seems like she wasn't reporting on the sex like she would have with any other asset. I noticed that too. I took it to mean that Claudia may or may not have known that they ever slept together--she probably wouldn't care either way--but she didn't know they had a real affair at all. Elizabeth had probably met him many times without reporting on it, and if she did a report she only talked about the professional thing they were doing together. Claudia had no idea they had that history. And Philip doesn't tell her or even hint that Elizabeth isn't thinking clearly about Gregory. Even after his death it seems like Claudia sees letting him commit suicide by cop is something Elizabeth and Philip agreed to do together, probably out of respect for Gregory. She knows that Elizabeth has stronger personal feelings about him since he's her agent--her first recruit. But she never seems to get any sense from either her or Philip that Elizabeth was emotionally compromised in any way. Probably in part because Claudia approves of Gregory so much herself. He was never a threat since he wanted Elizabeth to be just who she wanted her to be. She'd probably appreciate him using some of his last moments to tell Elizabeth to never get back with Philip. I do think, though, that Claudia expertly uses Elizabeth letting Gregory choose his death to manipulate her into taking revenge for Zhukov. Edited July 29, 2022 by sistermagpie 1 Link to comment
Zella July 29, 2022 Share July 29, 2022 14 minutes ago, sistermagpie said: She'd probably appreciate him using some of his last moments to tell Elizabeth to never get back with Philip. LOLOL She totally would have. 1 Link to comment
Paloma July 29, 2022 Share July 29, 2022 7 hours ago, Zella said: Also just in general on a rewatch, I am much more sympathetic to Paige than I was the first time around. Same here! I was always annoyed with her originally, but after rewatching the episodes where she demands to know what's going on and they finally tell her, and then she is so angry and alternately shutting them out and yelling questions at them...I realized that her reactions were totally understandable for a teenager who, in addition to normal developmental rebellion against parents, has just had her identity and her world turned upside down. Of course she would need to ask a million questions and at the same time be disbelieving of anything they tell her. And of course she would run to Pastor Tim and his wife, the only people she feels safe with now and, not incidentally, people who have been like parent figures to her. With the amount of time left on Prime and the amount of work I have to do before it leaves, there's no way I'm going to finish the series. In fact, I may have already watched the last episode I have time for. So you don't need to keep spoiler-tagging for me, but you may want to for others. And I'm going to continue reading the comments and participating to the extent that I remember what happened in subsequent episodes. 2 Link to comment
Zella July 29, 2022 Share July 29, 2022 22 minutes ago, Paloma said: Same here! I was always annoyed with her originally, but after rewatching the episodes where she demands to know what's going on and they finally tell her, and then she is so angry and alternately shutting them out and yelling questions at them...I realized that her reactions were totally understandable for a teenager who, in addition to normal developmental rebellion against parents, has just had her identity and her world turned upside down. Of course she would need to ask a million questions and at the same time be disbelieving of anything they tell her. And of course she would run to Pastor Tim and his wife, the only people she feels safe with now and, not incidentally, people who have been like parent figures to her. Yeah I found her so annoying the first time, but now I can only imagine what it would be like to be told that at that age. In fact, I was reading something a while ago that was from the daughter of two Soviet defectors who was raised in Canada. Her parents were not even active spies, but they apparently had a policy of telling their children who they really were as teenagers, and she admitted that, though she loved her parents and respected them, it really messed her up to have her entire world and her own personal identity turned upside down like that. I can't even imagine how much more disorienting it would be to be told that your parents were actively spying for a country you would have been raised to see as the enemy. As for Pastor Tim and his wife, I know that he is not always a particularly likable character and he occasionally does some sketchy things, but I really agreed with his assessment that the Jennings had done a truly terrible psychological injury to Paige. I'm not sure how she would ever really trust anyone again. 24 minutes ago, Paloma said: With the amount of time left on Prime and the amount of work I have to do before it leaves, there's no way I'm going to finish the series. In fact, I may have already watched the last episode I have time for. So you don't need to keep spoiler-tagging for me, but you may want to for others. And I'm going to continue reading the comments and participating to the extent that I remember what happened in subsequent episodes. Oh no! I'm so sorry! If you don't have Hulu--which I believe is where it is migrating--does your local library have the show on DVDs? 2 Link to comment
Andy73 July 29, 2022 Share July 29, 2022 (edited) Spoiler 14 hours ago, Zella said: I'd forgotten how strongly Elizabeth reacted when Philip first said they needed to leave Henry behind. I think she'd probably figured that after things slowed down she could mend fences with Henry and make up for lost time, so the sudden realization that was not happening really got her. I also noticed Henry seemed colder on the phone with her than he did Philip, which makes sense, but that didn't register last time This scene is terrific!!! MR and KR should have won the Emmy just for this scene. Kery’s strangled, pained gasp breaks my heart every time I hear it! And that shot of her covering her face as it’s contorted in pain will haunt me for a long time. Usually Philip is more emotional while Elizabeth is more rational. Here is the opposite. Elizabeth starts the scene unable to comprehend the idea of Henry staying behind, but in the end, she makes the hardest decision of her life, and it all plays out in her eyes. Her expression changes from disbelief to devastation. Spoiler 14 hours ago, Zella said: On the flip side, I'd remembered her last chat with Claudia as angrier than it actually was. It was interesting to me that, despite how bad their relationship was at times and the fact that Claudia had lied to her and betrayed her trust really severely, I don't think Elizabeth was actually mad at her anymore Instead, I think Elizabeth is furious here. she leaves her an run route but she is cold as ice. She really feels betrayed by her and the center. Betrayed and used. When Claudia tells her they would change her reports I realized it was over. Elizabeth couldn’t accept it. Also: Spoiler 12 hours ago, sistermagpie said: Quote I've seen a lot of speculation in various discussion forums--not necessarily here--that the ending is not really so unhappy since Philip and Elizabeth end up still having each other, but I have to say that the posture for both of them throughout the entire episode is about the most defeated I've ever seen them look. Even when they're finally back home staring at Moscow, they don't seem celebratory or joyful. I do think they loved each other very much at that point--Elizabeth wouldn't have grabbed those wedding rings when she was getting the hell of dodge if she didn't love him--but I imagine domestic life in a country that was soon to collapse between two people who'd never had a normal domestic existence and without their two kids was going to be really hard. Expand Yes--though I feel like they're lucky that the skills they have re: working together will transfer to this situation. They started their relationship learning to co-exist in a strange land where they felt isolated. I still find it nice how Elizabeth, in fact, is the one making the most romantic gestures at the end there. Maybe because everything that's just happened to her proved that she can and should love this guy, even when he's doing something she doesn't like Oh yes it’s very nice Elizabeth is making the most romantic gestures at the end. She fought with everyone in the last three episodes and she recognized only Philip did something for her. While she fight with Claudia she understand Philip betrayed her for her and instead S1 he goes to her and tell her everything and he apologizes. While she fight with Page, she realizes that there is only person who can understand her: her husband. When she fights with Philip, she knows he really is talking to her heart and he it her. Do you remember her “you don’t think I’m human been?” At the end she knows Philip is always at her side and she knows she couldn’t live without him. When she give him the real wedding ring there is a shot where it seems she is asking him ferociously if he would merry her again…and Philip looks her like kind “yes, but are you sure? Do you want? Even though I lied to you? So I loved see asleep in the back of Arkady's car as he drives crouched each other. I have so many other things to say, but right now I don’t have a time; I will back! just two thing: final shows us they learned from their mistakes and they know they can always count on each other! It will be difficult without their kids, but they know how to love each other. Only those who did not understand the show can think that the ending was light for them 12 hours ago, sistermagpie said: I think back on S6 (hope you're still around when I get to it in a year-LOL! I hope Zella will… sure I will! Zella you can start rewatch from S1! :) I’m doing it… oh , I read right now Paloma can't finish her rewatch. I hope you stay here with us too... Edited July 29, 2022 by Andy73 3 Link to comment
Paloma July 29, 2022 Share July 29, 2022 9 hours ago, Zella said: Oh no! I'm so sorry! If you don't have Hulu--which I believe is where it is migrating--does your local library have the show on DVDs? We don't have Hulu, but I will check the library--I know they do have a pretty good collection of movies. 2 Link to comment
Zella July 29, 2022 Share July 29, 2022 (edited) Spoiler 6 hours ago, Andy73 said: This scene is terrific!!! MR and KR should have won the Emmy just for this scene. Kery’s strangled, pained gasp breaks my heart every time I hear it! And that shot of her covering her face as it’s contorted in pain will haunt me for a long time. Usually Philip is more emotional while Elizabeth is more rational. Here is the opposite. Elizabeth starts the scene unable to comprehend the idea of Henry staying behind, but in the end, she makes the hardest decision of her life, and it all plays out in her eyes. Her expression changes from disbelief to devastation. Yes it's such a well-acted scene! Her having to walk out also got me. You could tell it wasn't because she was angry at him and she was storming out--it was because she knew he was right, and she was devastated. 6 hours ago, Andy73 said: I hope Zella will… sure I will! Zella you can start rewatch from S1! :) I’m doing it… I plan on still being here! I think The Americans is going on my annual to-watch list too. :) In fact, I might rewatch it all again here in a couple of months. LOL There is so much to unpack, and it is a really fun show to discuss because of its complexity. 3 hours ago, Paloma said: We don't have Hulu, but I will check the library--I know they do have a pretty good collection of movies. I hope it works out for you! The library I work at has them, and though I don't tend to watch a lot of DVDs anymore, I did check out all the seasons last year to watch special features. :) Edited July 29, 2022 by Zella 2 Link to comment
Andy73 July 29, 2022 Share July 29, 2022 18 hours ago, sistermagpie said: The more I think back on S6 (hope you're still around when I get to it in a year I think you are right. Philip knows that the best for Herry has been living in the US since a long time. And he has a good relationship with him, not like with Page. Of course He loves her but he don’t like her. Instead it seems Elizabeth is loosing them. Henry is in a other universe… and he is the only real in the family, the one out of business. Page? Well I feel Liz is both proud and disappointed of Paige… anyway she feels her close. But But they fought and Paige left after telling her “I will never forgive you.... you are a whore!!” Here why she is so devastated: she realizes that she will never recover the relationship with them 18 hours ago, sistermagpie said: Though when I think of the best set up/surprise, which is a little different, is when Elizabeth walks into the safehouse and sees Philip and realizes he's shown Martha his true face...and at the same moment we, the audience, realize he never told her he did that I can't decide if she was more jealous or furious.... 15 hours ago, Zella said: I also noticed that during the garage scene Paige and Elizabeth said very little and frequently looked at Philip when Stan would ask things instead of trying to respond themselves. They were definitely letting him take the lead in a way I'd never seen before It’s wonderfull see how Elizabeth trust Philip. 14 hours ago, sistermagpie said: All these years Gregory had known a lot more about *Philip's* private life with Elizabeth than he'd ever dreamed, and that would be not only hurtful, imo, but humiliating I totally with you. In S1x03 a mad Philip told her “you share your deepest feeling about us”. 13 hours ago, Paloma said: 20 hours ago, Zella said: Also just in general on a rewatch, I am much more sympathetic to Paige than I was the first time around. Same here! I was always annoyed with her originally, but after rewatching the episodes where she demands to know what's going on and they finally tell her, and then she is so angry and alternately shutting them out and yelling questions at them...I realized that her reactions were totally understandable for a teenager who, in addition to normal developmental rebellion against parents, has just had her identity and her world turned upside down. Of course she would need to ask a million questions and at the same time be disbelieving of anything they tell her. And of course she would run to Pastor Tim and his wife, the only people she feels safe with now and, not incidentally, people who have been like parent figures to her. I feel the same! I buy Page behavior. Here Page is 16’s old. She really is a teen and she behave like a teen! She was funny while she listed all possible cause of her parents secret she can imagine Going back to S6 One of my best scene of the show is when Philip tells the truth to Elizabeth about Oleg. Each line, each looks… all were perfect!!! If I think again, I loved all fight in the show!!! And Elizabeth was always involved!!! See you later! 3 Link to comment
Andy73 July 29, 2022 Share July 29, 2022 (edited) I’m here again for my feelings on “Only You” S1x10 I am not shocked that Gaad let Stan get away with the murder of Vlad. “We are in word now. It may a secret war but it’s a war”. That’s all. There are no good guys. There are agents. Soldiers. We don’t have to judge the characters just for the terrible actions they do. I mean, they are at war. What’s the difference between a murder Philip’s murder and a bomb dropped by a topgun? We mustn’t judge with our happy civilian eyes… Elizabeth teach education and what respect means to Page. Well done Liz! And then Philip comes… lol they are amazing. Elizabeth is trying whit all her force to go without him… she was annoyed by his appearance. Business as usual… and they open the sink faucet. Who else can I tell, you know? Oh Liz, that is not big thing to say to ex FBI guys aren’t joking here. Claudia is smoking… Do you think Philip doesn’t totally agree with Elizabet about Gregory’s loyalty or he just doesn’t trust him? It’s sad but Claudia is right: they have only two options: Moscow or death. Claudia did really good job with evidence. Nobody knows how she did, but she did! Gregory …. Do you really think Elizabeth would run with you??? Naaa I know you don’t. Poor Sandra: her please…. She is really begging Stan. Elizabeth slept last time with Gregory. Is it her way of saying him goodbye or she still love him? I feel the first! Gregory never gives up. Even now he tells her to leave Philip. Are you just jealous or do you think he could really hurt her, soften her. Gregory doesn’t change his idea: never to Moscow even if it is beautiful, cosmopolitan much more DC. Elizabeth is desperate with gun in her hand. Could she shot him? ”Philip, I’m asking you!” And Philip is there. He is with her, again. Always. Gregory leaves us in his own way. With a lot of dignity! At the end I think Gregory is more like Elizabeth than he might seem. As Martha is like Philip…. Edited July 29, 2022 by Andy73 Link to comment
sistermagpie July 29, 2022 Share July 29, 2022 15 hours ago, Paloma said: Same here! I was always annoyed with her originally, but after rewatching the episodes where she demands to know what's going on and they finally tell her, and then she is so angry and alternately shutting them out and yelling questions at them...I realized that her reactions were totally understandable for a teenager who, in addition to normal developmental rebellion against parents, has just had her identity and her world turned upside down. Of course she would need to ask a million questions and at the same time be disbelieving of anything they tell her. And of course she would run to Pastor Tim and his wife, the only people she feels safe with now and, not incidentally, people who have been like parent figures to her. 15 hours ago, Zella said: Yeah I found her so annoying the first time, but now I can only imagine what it would be like to be told that at that age. In fact, I was reading something a while ago that was from the daughter of two Soviet defectors who was raised in Canada. Her parents were not even active spies, but they apparently had a policy of telling their children who they really were as teenagers, and she admitted that, though she loved her parents and respected them, it really messed her up to have her entire world and her own personal identity turned upside down like that. I can't even imagine how much more disorienting it would be to be told that your parents were actively spying for a country you would have been raised to see as the enemy. I think the character already was at a disadvantage being the kid who caused problems on this show, but on rewatch I see that also, it's a big acting challenge technically. If it were played by one of the many accomplished theater actors on the show who are probably really good at breaking down scripts etc. I think it would have come across differently. Unfortunately it's being played by a young person who obviously doesn't have that much experience (either professionally or in life) and even on top of that just isn't very good. So once Paige becomes more complicated (I think as soon as S3 starts--that's when she starts being a teenager with a whole hidden agenda etc.) it starts just being doomed. It's almost like there is no actual character of Paige with an inner life, so the best she can get is just this--realizing that this would be a really hard thing to deal with, especially as a teenager. But that's different from understanding how this specific teenager is dealing with it and what she's expressing. I think they cast her for having a really earnest, vulnerable (fragile) quality Like I've said, her story is actually a lot like Martha's. She also could have annoyed people, but Alison Wright really puts across in a way where she makes sense. (Of course, Martha also has the advantage that her story is familiar--everyone knows love will do things to a lonely person.) 15 hours ago, Zella said: As for Pastor Tim and his wife, I know that he is not always a particularly likable character and he occasionally does some sketchy things, but I really agreed with his assessment that the Jennings had done a truly terrible psychological injury to Paige. I'm not sure how she would ever really trust anyone again. He is right about that. Though I think that helps him ignore how he himself made it worse. Compared to them he's a good guy, but that's a low bar. His flaws are all on a more ordinary level. 9 hours ago, Andy73 said: Hide contents This scene is terrific!!! MR and KR should have won the Emmy just for this scene. Kery’s strangled, pained gasp breaks my heart every time I hear it! And that shot of her covering her face as it’s contorted in pain will haunt me for a long time. Usually Philip is more emotional while Elizabeth is more rational. Here is the opposite. Elizabeth starts the scene unable to comprehend the idea of Henry staying behind, but in the end, she makes the hardest decision of her life, and it all plays out in her eyes. Her expression changes from disbelief to devastation. Hide contents Instead, I think Elizabeth is furious here. she leaves her an run route but she is cold as ice. She really feels betrayed by her and the center. Betrayed and used. When Claudia tells her they would change her reports I realized it was over. Elizabeth couldn’t accept it. Yes, given how openly hostile and violent Elizabeth is in S1 I do think her colder dismissal of Claudia at the end is meant to be more serious. 9 hours ago, Andy73 said: Hide contents Oh yes it’s very nice Elizabeth is making the most romantic gestures at the end. She fought with everyone in the last three episodes and she recognized only Philip did something for her. It always seems to me that right before Philip's topsy-turvy call, Elizabeth's sort of gone through this whole journey that does bring her right back to Philip as the person who understands her and she can trust. As mad as she was at him in their fight, the subtext of it really was that they were on the same page. Like re: the line about whether she's a human being, I've noticed on rewatch that really does seem to be a thing that she sometimes fears, that Philip sees her as a monster. But he doesn't at all. As he says no, he's telling her to act like the human being she is. 2 hours ago, Zella said: Reveal spoiler Yes it's such a well-acted scene! Her having to walk out also got me. You could tell it wasn't because she was angry at him and she was storming out--it was because she knew he was right, and she was devastated. I plan on still being here! I think The Americans is going on my annual to-watch list too. :) In fact, I might rewatch it all again here in a couple of months. LOL There is so much to unpack, and it is a really fun show to discuss because of its complexity. You have no idea how happy it makes me to hear that. 😁 2 hours ago, Andy73 said: I think you are right. Philip knows that the best for Herry has been living in the US since a long time. And he has a good relationship with him, not like with Page. Of course He loves her but he don’t like her. Instead it seems Elizabeth is loosing them. Henry is in a other universe… and he is the only real in the family, the one out of business. Page? Well I feel Liz is both proud and disappointed of Paige… anyway she feels her close. But But they fought and Paige left after telling her “I will never forgive you.... you are a whore!!” Here why she is so devastated: she realizes that she will never recover the relationship with them Yes, it feels one of the biggest differences with how they leave things with the kids is that while Philip definitely feels like he failed them, he used the time he had to try to give them what he wanted them to have. He made it clear he thought Paige was being foolish by trying to choose this life and laid some truth on her in a way she thought she needed even if it risked making her angry at him. She knew in some ways where he stood. With Henry he supported him in everything he wanted for himself. Showed him that he thought he was great just the way he was. Elizabeth acted like she didn't much care about Henry when she did. And even when Paige gave her an ultimatum about never being able to forgive her if she lied, and already knew the truth, she still chose to lie. She left both kids in a state where she probably hoped to make things better and didn't have time. It occurs to me, too, that it's an interesting parallel with Paige. When she confronts her parents in Stingers she basically makes the same ultimatum: If you love me, tell me the truth. And they do--but for different reasons. Elizabeth already wanted to tell her the truth. Philip tells her the truth because he's convinced by exactly that argument. He sees that if he loves her, he has to show her the respect of telling her the truth there. But when it's just Elizabeth getting the same argument, she makes the opposite choice. 2 Link to comment
sistermagpie July 29, 2022 Share July 29, 2022 2 hours ago, Andy73 said: I’m here again for my feelings on “Only You” S1x10 I am not shocked that Gaad let Stan get away with the murder of Vlad. “We are in word now. It may a secret war but it’s a war”. I notice sometimes how some people on the show are always claiming that the other side crossed a line and they never do. It's like when Elizabeth is saying "Do you listen to what they say about us?" and Philip says, "Do you listen to how you talk about them?" 2 hours ago, Andy73 said: Do you think Philip doesn’t totally agree with Elizabet about Gregory’s loyalty or he just doesn’t trust him? Good question. Philip always seems to respect Gregory's skills. I don't know that he has any real distrust of him as an agent personally so much as he thinks anyone might flip. It's like Claudia points out--up until now Gregory hasn't been tested like this. Elizabeth is right that he wouldn't give them up because she knows he lives for the cause and he couldn't live with betraying it because she feels that way. But then, Philip is right that Gregory will refuse to go to Moscow while Elizabeth imagines that since it's her home, he'll like it. Now hearing her say he thinks he'll like it in Moscow makes me think of her suggesting Paige is going to totally help Henry adapt to Moscow, which was never going to happen either. 2 hours ago, Andy73 said: Gregory …. Do you really think Elizabeth would run with you??? Naaa I know you don’t. I always think there's something so inevitable in that moment, that in his last moments Gregory does admit that he would like to have a real life with human pleasures and love, but his relationship was never based on that at all. Philip and Elizabeth can build a life from nothing in Moscow. Gregory and Elizabeth could never do that anywhere. Also another thing that the conversation about Elizabeth telling Gregory who she was made me think of is that while Gregory knows Elizabeth is Russian, he seems to still always relate to that as an American. Elizabeth and Philip seem to relate to their home country in a similar way that they don't have talk about. For Gregory Russia doesn't have any real personal meaning or interest, imo. He jokes about Russian girls being tough or refers to Elizabeth as KGB, the #1 enemy of the US, but I definitely get no sense that she shares things from her childhood with him etc. the way she sometimes does with Philip. 2 hours ago, Andy73 said: Poor Sandra: her please…. She is really begging Stan. I love that scene. 2 hours ago, Andy73 said: Elizabeth slept last time with Gregory. Is it her way of saying him goodbye or she still love him? I feel the first! I think she's letting him die believing that she loves him and everything is mostly back to where it was before she broke up with him. Like when she tells Philip he should lie to Martha and say he'll join her in Moscow later. 2 hours ago, Andy73 said: Gregory never gives up. Even now he tells her to leave Philip. Are you just jealous or do you think he could really hurt her, soften her. I tend to think it's important for him to believe that Elizabeth could never love anyone more or differently than she loved him. Their relationship was always less important than the cause--that was central to it. But with Philip she's embracing a life with him. 2 hours ago, Andy73 said: Gregory leaves us in his own way. With a lot of dignity! I like how Gregory's death never seems like a fridging, where he only exists for Elizabeth to feel something when he dies. He obviously has his own story. 2 hours ago, Andy73 said: At the end I think Gregory is more like Elizabeth than he might seem. As Martha is like Philip…. I feel too, though, that Elizabeth is ultimately *not* like him--she chooses life. Just like Philip isn't Irina because he doesn't choose to run away. 2 Link to comment
Zella July 29, 2022 Share July 29, 2022 6 minutes ago, sistermagpie said: I notice sometimes how some people on the show are always claiming that the other side crossed a line and they never do. It's like when Elizabeth is saying "Do you listen to what they say about us?" and Philip says, "Do you listen to how you talk about them?" Yes that really stood out to me a lot on a rewatch. A lot of things spiral out of control because everyone assumes the worst, like when Amador disappears. They automatically assume he was kidnapped by KGB, which I mean yes technically that happens, but it was hardly something they were ordered to do or even wanted to do. He would never have been kidnapped if he hadn't done something very dumb on his own initiative. In season 6, it's fascinating to listen to both sides rant about the other trying to disrupt or undermine the summit. LOL 1 Link to comment
Zella July 29, 2022 Share July 29, 2022 (edited) 3 hours ago, Andy73 said: Do you think Philip doesn’t totally agree with Elizabet about Gregory’s loyalty or he just doesn’t trust him? 27 minutes ago, sistermagpie said: Good question. Philip always seems to respect Gregory's skills. I don't know that he has any real distrust of him as an agent personally so much as he thinks anyone might flip. It's like Claudia points out--up until now Gregory hasn't been tested like this. Elizabeth is right that he wouldn't give them up because she knows he lives for the cause and he couldn't live with betraying it because she feels that way. But then, Philip is right that Gregory will refuse to go to Moscow while Elizabeth imagines that since it's her home, he'll like it. Now hearing her say he thinks he'll like it in Moscow makes me think of her suggesting Paige is going to totally help Henry adapt to Moscow, which was never going to happen either. Yeah I noticed Philip actually does have respect for Gregory's skills and also seems to agree that he is reliable in that he will keep his word if he promises to do something. But I don't think he likes Gregory or trusts him concerning Elizabeth. I think Philip legitimately is convinced of Gregory's devotion to the cause, but he also expects him to try to create a schism between Philip and Elizabeth every chance he gets. And I think, as is often true, he is more realistic in assessing Gregory than Elizabeth is and recognizes that the relocation will be hard for someone from the West, regardless of their devotion to communism. It's a pretty frequent refrain from defectors. Even the hardcore ones often had a terrible time adjusting, and the Soviets themselves seemed aware of this and would cater to it, to an extent, but they also closely watched those people because they assumed they'd get homesick or tired of it and bolt the first chance they got. I think Elizabeth expects everyone else to always just buckle down and suffer through everything like she does for the cause without recognizing that people who are fanatically devoted can and do reach a breaking point. Edited July 29, 2022 by Zella 1 Link to comment
Paloma July 29, 2022 Share July 29, 2022 2 hours ago, sistermagpie said: It's almost like there is no actual character of Paige with an inner life, so the best she can get is just this--realizing that this would be a really hard thing to deal with, especially as a teenager. But that's different from understanding how this specific teenager is dealing with it and what she's expressing. I think they cast her for having a really earnest, vulnerable (fragile) quality That's a great way of explaining the problem with the Paige character. For most of the first two seasons she was basically a one-dimensional part of the scenery (as was Henry), serving mainly to give Philip and Elizabeth more humanity in showing them as parents (especially Philip) and giving more depth to their characters in showing how they deal with conflicts about parenting. Then in the third season the plot of Paige's questioning and ultimately learning the secret should have served to give her more depth, but we really didn't learn more about her character other than her reactions to this devastating knowledge. Part of the problem may have been the actress's inexperience, but I don't know if a better actress would have been able to make us care more about her. Henry, of course, never really became more than a one-dimensional part of the scenery. I actually would have liked to learn more about his character as he matured beyond "annoying little brother who likes to do impressions and watch video games." And I would have liked a flash forward to see what happened to both of them. 1 Link to comment
sistermagpie July 30, 2022 Share July 30, 2022 2 hours ago, Zella said: Yes that really stood out to me a lot on a rewatch. A lot of things spiral out of control because everyone assumes the worst, like when Amador disappears. They automatically assume he was kidnapped by KGB, which I mean yes technically that happens, but it was hardly something they were ordered to do or even wanted to do. He would never have been kidnapped if he hadn't done something very dumb on his own initiative. Stan's thoughts about Amador's kidnapping are so funny to me too, because what exactly does he think they're even doing with the guy? As a kidnapping plot it really is totally odd. It would make more sense if this was happening *after* Stan killed Vlad, but of course by doing that Stan thinks he's recreating the KGB plot. Granted, he does have the one clue that does tell him it's KGB--the lack of fingerprints in the car. But he never seems to need to come up with a rational reason for why the KGB should be doing this. Amador was kidnapped by the KGB so Stan's not being dumb, but it's good for them that he never thinks too hard about the why beyond "they're animals and he's FBI." 2 hours ago, Zella said: Yeah I noticed Philip actually does have respect for Gregory's skills and also seems to agree that he is reliable in that he will keep his word if he promises to do something. But I don't think he likes Gregory or trusts him concerning Elizabeth. I think Philip legitimately is convinced of Gregory's devotion to the cause, but he also expects him to try to create a schism between Philip and Elizabeth every chance he gets. And he's right there too! Though the real danger there is Elizabeth herself, who's still guilty about leaving Gregory, imo. I don't mean she feels bad about dumping him personality, but she knows that her affair with Gregory was just one more thing linking her to the cause while Philip is taking a step into the unknown. Btw, this came up earlier, but it does seem interesting to me that Claudia is smoking in this ep because it doesn't seem like she ever does it elsewhere. Maybe I'm forgetting a time she does it? Or maybe they considered having her be a smoker but backed off it because cigarettes came to be such a major major symbol of a death wish/numbness to life as the series went on that they didn't want to accidentally say something they didn't mean with her. 2 hours ago, Zella said: And I think, as is often true, he is more realistic in assessing Gregory than Elizabeth is and recognizes that the relocation will be hard for someone from the West, regardless of their devotion to communism. It's a pretty frequent refrain from defectors. Even the hardcore ones often had a terrible time adjusting, and the Soviets themselves seemed aware of this and would cater to it, to an extent, but they also closely watched those people because they assumed they'd get homesick or tired of it and bolt the first chance they got. I think Elizabeth expects everyone else to always just buckle down and suffer through everything like she does for the cause without recognizing that people who are fanatically devoted can and do reach a breaking point. It's kind of fascinating. She herself even needs to feel like she's ready to chuck all this American stuff any minute (all those beautiful shoes...). She herself didn't choose to go the US. I think she saw that part of her job as a scary--but therefore most important--mission where Philip saw it as an exciting opportunity. So she assumes everyone can just make the adjustment like she did. Like I honestly love on rewatch how completely consistently Paige is shown to really not like foreign things at all. And I suspect Gregory was the same way. Not jingoistic or misanthropic, just the type of person who thinks foreign places are for foreigners, not normal people. You don't go and live there or use the language to communicate. Btw, there was a whole conversation about Gregory too, where some felt Gregory was explicitly rejecting the option because of his race, but no matter how many times I watch the ep and that scene where he asks to be sent to LA instead, I just see no hint whatsoever that anyone is considering his race as a major issue, including Gregory. 2 hours ago, Paloma said: That's a great way of explaining the problem with the Paige character. For most of the first two seasons she was basically a one-dimensional part of the scenery (as was Henry), serving mainly to give Philip and Elizabeth more humanity in showing them as parents (especially Philip) and giving more depth to their characters in showing how they deal with conflicts about parenting. Then in the third season the plot of Paige's questioning and ultimately learning the secret should have served to give her more depth, but we really didn't learn more about her character other than her reactions to this devastating knowledge. Part of the problem may have been the actress's inexperience, but I don't know if a better actress would have been able to make us care more about her. Yeah, it's impossible to say how it could have been different since we have nothing to compare it too. I feel like she basically works in the first 2 seasons because while she's technically a teenager, she's on the kid-side of adolescence. She says exactly what she means. But season 3 immediately starts signalling that she's had a real growth in maturity and the logic of the character becomes more buried. I do feel like it definitely could have been different. For instance, that scene where she's waiting to ambush them in Stingers was always going to come a little out of nowhere because it just does--it's like the pen being found does. But it surprises me on rewatch how little Paige seems like a ticking timebomb who's obsessed with finding out the secret when I think she could be. If a moment isn't explicitly about the secret in the writing, it's not there at all. 2 hours ago, Paloma said: Henry, of course, never really became more than a one-dimensional part of the scenery. I actually would have liked to learn more about his character as he matured beyond "annoying little brother who likes to do impressions and watch video games." And I would have liked a flash forward to see what happened to both of them. I admit, I am thrilled that we get no flashforward. But yeah, I remember someone once saying that there was always more of the idea of Henry than Henry himself. He holds together for me as a character and I can see a logic to him, but that's not quite the same as feeling him as a character we all recognize. I think that's why, come to think of it, when people talk about the two kids, it's easy to just project whatever story you're most familiar with on them. Which is very different from the one teenager that people were often really repulsed by--Kimmy (who is, of course, played by an actress that really blown up since then). 2 Link to comment
Zella July 30, 2022 Share July 30, 2022 15 minutes ago, sistermagpie said: Btw, this came up earlier, but it does seem interesting to me that Claudia is smoking in this ep because it doesn't seem like she ever does it elsewhere. Maybe I'm forgetting a time she does it? Or maybe they considered having her be a smoker but backed off it because cigarettes came to be such a major major symbol of a death wish/numbness to life as the series went on that they didn't want to accidentally say something they didn't mean with her. They seem to play around a lot with giving Claudia quirks that never amount to anything. Like her playing Pacman that one time and being super into it. LOL I don't remember seeing her smoke again, but I don't think they settled on the cigarette symbolism until the end of the series and it seems to be most specific to Elizabeth. We don't realize Arkady is a smoker until we start to see him in his office late in season 1, but he seems like a pretty heavy smoker throughout the first 4 seasons. In fact, beyond Elizabeth, I think of him as the other primary smoker in the series, and that symbolism doesn't seem to apply to him. I don't think he smokes in season 6, but it seems like he's someone who smokes to unwind, and he's never really relaxing in any of those episodes. Too busy chasing Oleg, Oleg's dad, and Philip and Elizabeth around creation. LOL 20 minutes ago, sistermagpie said: Like I honestly love on rewatch how completely consistently Paige is shown to really not like foreign things at all. And I suspect Gregory was the same way. Not jingoistic or misanthropic, just the type of person who thinks foreign places are for foreigners, not normal people. You don't go and live there or use the language to communicate. I think this is quite possible, but I did always find it interesting that Gregory liked Chinese food, and she bought a wok right after Philip moved out of the house. The kids even call her out on it, and she makes spaghetti instead. It made me wonder if she seriously entertained having him over to dinner and introducing him to her kids or if she just bought it out of some perceived closeness to him even without intending to actually cook for him. 1 Link to comment
sistermagpie July 30, 2022 Share July 30, 2022 44 minutes ago, Zella said: They seem to play around a lot with giving Claudia quirks that never amount to anything. Like her playing Pacman that one time and being super into it. LOL I don't remember seeing her smoke again, but I don't think they settled on the cigarette symbolism until the end of the series and it seems to be most specific to Elizabeth. We don't realize Arkady is a smoker until we start to see him in his office late in season 1, but he seems like a pretty heavy smoker throughout the first 4 seasons. In fact, beyond Elizabeth, I think of him as the other primary smoker in the series, and that symbolism doesn't seem to apply to him. I don't think he smokes in season 6, but it seems like he's someone who smokes to unwind, and he's never really relaxing in any of those episodes. Too busy chasing Oleg, Oleg's dad, and Philip and Elizabeth around creation. LOL Yeah, I definitely don't get any symbolism from him with it--he seems just to be a smoker. There's also Nina, who Stan says he didn't know smoked before she points out he doesn't know anything about her. It is a pretty funny moment. I'll bet part of it was just sort of like Mad Men--everybody used to smoke a lot more so we're going to have people smoke like it's the early 80s! But with Elizabeth it became so natural maybe by accident because of that first scene with Gregory. Arkady also has that great line about how Americans make better cigarettes and Russians make better vodka. 44 minutes ago, Zella said: I think this is quite possible, but I did always find it interesting that Gregory liked Chinese food, and she bought a wok right after Philip moved out of the house. The kids even call her out on it, and she makes spaghetti instead. It made me wonder if she seriously entertained having him over to dinner and introducing him to her kids or if she just bought it out of some perceived closeness to him even without intending to actually cook for him. Reading this makes me realize I assumed neither of them would ever want him to meet the kids because so much of their relationship is based on Gregory preserving the "real" Elizabeth who isn't a mother or a wife. (Also, of course, it would link the two of them under their real identities which would have gotten Elizabeth caught much sooner.) In fact, when I try to imagine her doing it seems like a complete disaster that might have broken them up if they weren't already. The kids would be instinctively hostile to some handsome stranger Elizabeth suddenly introduces as a friend after kicking Dad out. Paige, especially, would probably peg him as not belonging to the world they live in and the history between them. Gregory would have to pretend he didn't resent the kids for existing and probably get embarassing questions. Elizabeth might feel the need to act like the "real" her in Gregory's eyes, and Paige or both kids would call her out on being weird. And her Chinese food would probably not taste anywhere near as good as actual Chinese food. LOL. Oh, and Philip probably would never forgive her. I hadn't made the connection with Gregory and Chinese food but yeah, they do have a thing about it later. I guess I just thought most people do like Chinese food and the person who wrote Only You might not have remembered the wok in Safe House. But Elizabeth is obviously trying *something* with getting a wok. Maybe she is thinking about something she and Gregory used to like to do and trying to introduce it to the kids as a way of bringing them closer to that side of herself? Paige really does nail her when she calls her out for being the cliche woman who splits with her husband and does something like buy a wok. We never see Elizabeth trying to make Chinese food--which probably means nothing, but I can totally believe that Paige made her feel so stupid about buying it that she never used it after that. I mean, it's not like Paige rejects Chinese food on principle, she just questions the timing. That alone might have ruined it for Elizabeth. 1 Link to comment
Zella July 30, 2022 Share July 30, 2022 9 minutes ago, sistermagpie said: Yeah, I definitely don't get any symbolism from him with it--he seems just to be a smoker. There's also Nina, who Stan says he didn't know smoked before she points out he doesn't know anything about her. It is a pretty funny moment. I'll bet part of it was just sort of like Mad Men--everybody used to smoke a lot more so we're going to have people smoke like it's the early 80s! But with Elizabeth it became so natural maybe by accident because of that first scene with Gregory. I think Oleg also has a smoking scene in season 5, and it kind of surprised me because I don't remember him smoking before or since. He was pretty stressed out at the time, though. I actually don't remember any of the legitimately American characters being smokers, off the top of my head, which is odd given the era. My grandmother and grandfather would basically be Philip and Elizabeth's age, and they were just about the only people who didn't smoke in their families (from North Carolina, where tobacco is king). They tell stories of going to relatives' houses and opening the door and a wall of smoke rolling out to greet them. 12 minutes ago, sistermagpie said: In fact, when I try to imagine her doing it seems like a complete disaster that might have broken them up if they weren't already. The kids would be instinctively hostile to some handsome stranger Elizabeth suddenly introduces as a friend after kicking Dad out. Paige, especially, would probably peg him as not belonging to the world they live in and the history between them. Gregory would have to pretend he didn't resent the kids for existing and probably get embarassing questions. Elizabeth might feel the need to act like the "real" her in Gregory's eyes, and Paige or both kids would call her out on being weird. And her Chinese food would probably not taste anywhere near as good as actual Chinese food. LOL. Oh, and Philip probably would never forgive her. It would be even more awkward than when Pastor Tim, Alice, and Stan all showed up for dinner. LOLOLOL I kind of wonder if she thought she'd practice making Chinese food for the kids and it was something she could do with Gregory alone. Whatever it was, it was definitely an idea she abandoned fast after Paige called her out for it. 1 Link to comment
sistermagpie July 30, 2022 Share July 30, 2022 59 minutes ago, Zella said: I actually don't remember any of the legitimately American characters being smokers, off the top of my head, which is odd given the era. Gregory seems to be the only one! I remember Philip smoking once, but just as part of a job. It probably came in handy a lot for that reason. I do love Henry making a joke about it as a 1987 teenager, though. 59 minutes ago, Zella said: My grandmother and grandfather would basically be Philip and Elizabeth's age, and they were just about the only people who didn't smoke in their families (from North Carolina, where tobacco is king). They tell stories of going to relatives' houses and opening the door and a wall of smoke rolling out to greet them. My mom grew up with a non-stop smoking mother and it turned her off it. My dad apparently smoked like everyone did before I was born and then once he had a cold or the flu and thought, "this makes me feel worse" and quit cold turkey. Weeks later my mom was like, "Did you quit smoking? Because I have a mountain of cigarettes I've kept buying for you..." I remember when I was little we even had a pack in the fridge. Nobody in the house smoked, but I guess it was polite for guests just in case? Just like why we had a lot of ashtrays? 59 minutes ago, Zella said: It would be even more awkward than when Pastor Tim, Alice, and Stan all showed up for dinner. LOLOLOL LOL. Look who's coming for dinner...Yipes! 59 minutes ago, Zella said: I kind of wonder if she thought she'd practice making Chinese food for the kids and it was something she could do with Gregory alone. Whatever it was, it was definitely an idea she abandoned fast after Paige called her out for it. It brings up a whole other issue of where Elizabeth's head is at with Gregory, too. Because right after Trust Me, when they have a big disagreement on both sides, she's with Gregory again, asking for cigarettes and so signalling she might come back. Then in Only You she's telling him how Philip has left and he understandably assumes she's coming back to him...but then she pulls away again. So it doesn't seem like she really thought she'd be going back to Gregory now that she and Philip were done...but maybe she figured eventually that was inevitable? Maybe she thought that was what she was doing when she was telling him about Philip leaving but then when he moved in she realized her heart was still with him. She'd always gone to him to talk about how married life wasn't for her, but this was totally different. I love, btw, when she comes over to Philip's apartment to pick up Paige and she's totally scoping the place out, asking about him "hanging things on the walls" and looking at the family portrait. And when she first comes in she says, "I could hear you laughing from out in the hall" in just the most pathetic way. It's just such a great line reading, like she's trying to be warm and join in, but then thinks maybe she sounds scolding or something and just deflates. She winds up sounding like some kid hoping to be invited into play. (Or...like Stan.) Which is great, because it's after she hoped to get Philip back without admitting she wanted him. When I rewatched that dinner scene with Paige it made me think of it as a parallel to the fight between Philip and Paige, in fact. I feel like eventually Elizabeth is going to tell him about that last confrontation with Paige and I think he'd actually be relieved to know that Elizabeth made it clear they both honeypotted, not just her. 1 Link to comment
Zella July 30, 2022 Share July 30, 2022 26 minutes ago, sistermagpie said: She winds up sounding like some kid hoping to be invited into play. (Or...like Stan.) I laughed harder at this than was polite. LOLOL But yes Elizabeth is pretty pathetic in that scene. I think Elizabeth always had a complex about the kids seeming to prefer Philip. Interestingly, I don't know that she's really jealous of Philip over it, but I do think it hurts her feelings and makes her feel bad. It's always interesting to me to watch her when she is on assignment because she often is quite vivacious in a way that she isn't at home. I think she probably could have faked being the fun parent very well, but that just wasn't her demeanor, and she had to fake so much at home already. 1 Link to comment
Andy73 July 30, 2022 Share July 30, 2022 15 hours ago, sistermagpie said: I feel too, though, that Elizabeth is ultimately *not* like him--she chooses life. Just like Philip isn't Irina because he doesn't choose to run away. You are right. I’m ready to change my sentence. Gregory is how Elizabeth think she is. The same for Philip on Irina! 12 hours ago, Zella said: I don't think they settled on the cigarette symbolism until the end of the series and it seems to be most specific to Elizabeth. I agree! In ‘80s 9 persons over 10 were smokers. It’s different for Elizabeth: when she is under pressure she smokes. 12 hours ago, sistermagpie said: Btw, there was a whole conversation about Gregory too, where some felt Gregory was explicitly rejecting the option because of his race, but no matter how many times I watch the ep and that scene where he asks to be sent to LA instead, I just see no hint whatsoever that anyone is considering his race as a major issue, including Gregory Oh no! It’s not definitely a matter of race! 16 hours ago, Paloma said: That's a great way of explaining the problem with the Paige character. For most of the first two seasons she was basically a one-dimensional part of the scenery (as was Henry), serving mainly to give Philip and Elizabeth more humanity in showing them as parents (especially Philip) and giving more depth to their characters in showing how they deal with conflicts about parenting. Then in the third season the plot of Paige's questioning and ultimately learning the secret should have served to give her more depth, but we really didn't learn more about her character other than her reactions to this devastating knowledge. Part of the problem may have been the actress's inexperience, but I don't know if a better actress would have been able to make us care more about her. Didn’t you really like Holly’s performance? I did! Ok, she is inexperienced, but she never came me flat. I think her character growed more than other child characters in other shows. In S6 I don’t like her not cause how she was written, but for her choices. Same as Philip… 12 hours ago, sistermagpie said: Reading this makes me realize I assumed neither of them would ever want him to meet the kids because so much of their relationship is based on Gregory preserving the "real" Elizabeth who isn't a mother or a wife. (Also, of course, it would link the two of them under their real identities which would have gotten Elizabeth caught much sooner.) In fact, when I try to imagine her doing it seems like a complete disaster that might have broken them up if they weren't already. The kids would be instinctively hostile to some handsome stranger Elizabeth suddenly introduces as a friend after kicking Dad out Oh no…. No way Elizabeth bring Gregory at home. Because kids…. And Philip. And I think after she broke their relationship she never thought to come back together…. Gregory loves an Elizabeth who is gone. Now Elizabeth is a mother…. and wife. May be she still has trouble with wife…. Sure not with mother. 11 hours ago, sistermagpie said: And when she first comes in she says, "I could hear you laughing from out in the hall" in just the most pathetic way. It's just such a great line reading, like she's trying to be warm and join in, but then thinks maybe she sounds scolding or something and just deflates. She winds up sounding like some kid hoping to be invited into play. I love that scene. I felt so bad for Elizabeth. 10 hours ago, Zella said: But yes Elizabeth is pretty pathetic in that scene I agree… who knows how Philip saw her? 10 hours ago, Zella said: I think Elizabeth always had a complex about the kids seeming to prefer Philip I think she has a complex too. But I don’t think she is jealous on Phil. On final S1 she want kids stay with him… she think this is the best for their. 11 hours ago, sistermagpie said: When I rewatched that dinner scene with Paige it made me think of it as a parallel to the fight between Philip and Paige, in fact I don’t remember this scene. May be in S1x09? But I feel you have done a good catch. 11 hours ago, sistermagpie said: I feel like eventually Elizabeth is going to tell him about that last confrontation with Paige and I think he'd actually be relieved to know that Elizabeth made it clear they both honeypotted, not just her. I feel the same! I feel P&E talk each other more then we think. 10 hours ago, Zella said: I think she probably could have faked being the fun parent very well, but that just wasn't her demeanor, and she had to fake so much at home already. Are you sure she feels she has to fake at home? I feel P&E are credible, authentic co-parents. And I think Elizabeth feels the same 1 Link to comment
Paloma July 30, 2022 Share July 30, 2022 10 hours ago, Zella said: I think Elizabeth always had a complex about the kids seeming to prefer Philip. Interestingly, I don't know that she's really jealous of Philip over it, but I do think it hurts her feelings and makes her feel bad. I agree but also remember a couple of flashbacks to scenes early in their fake marriage that suggested she did not really want to have kids and only did so (at least for the first one) because it was expected or required to make their cover as an ordinary American couple more believable. I think the first scene was when Elizabeth did not want to have sex and Philip said something to the effect that they would have to at some point so they could have a child. And the second scene I remember was when she approached Philip sitting on the bed and told him she was "ready"--I assume that meant either to have sex for the first time or to get pregnant, or both. But I still didn't get the impression she was enthusiastic about the idea of having kids. I remembered these scenes when, after the revelation of their real identities and jobs to Paige, one of the things she demanded to know is if she and Henry were really their children. Both Philip and Elizabeth responded that they were and they loved them, but Elizabeth's response was something to the effect of she (or they) always wanted and loved Paige and Henry. It struck me because it seemed not quite true for Elizabeth, though I understand why she had to say it. And the reality is that even for people who are not Russian spies or leading other types of secret lives, not everybody who has children initially wanted them. When my husband and I got married (second marriage for both, no children from the first marriages), I knew he really wanted to have children but I did not. Partly that was because as a young adult I had little exposure to children and did not feel comfortable with them, and partly it was because I had a terrible relationship with my mother and feared replicating that relationship if I had a child, especially a daughter. But because I knew how much my husband wanted children, I went to counseling alone and subsequently with him to work through my feelings. Eventually I reached a point where I could say "I'm ready" (like Elizabeth), but to some extent I was still pretending I was ready. Luckily, when my daughter was born my maternal instincts did kick in--a little too much, she would probably say, because I became overprotective. We did have a difficult relationship at times, but it got better once she was an adult and especially once she had a daughter. I'm not sorry I became a mother, but I'm still not sure I would have done it if it hadn't been important to my husband. (Sorry for the TMI, but this show sometimes brings out personal feelings.) 3 Link to comment
Paloma July 30, 2022 Share July 30, 2022 14 minutes ago, Andy73 said: Didn’t you really like Holly’s performance? I did! Ok, she is inexperienced, but she never came me flat. When I described her character as one-dimensional, I didn't mean that the actress's performance was flat. I was really talking about the way she was written. When the writers gave her important scenes, she handled them pretty well. But I don't think she had the acting skills of Julia Garner ("Kimmy"). In fact, I sometimes wonder if I would have reacted differently to the character of Paige, especially in the first watch, if Julia Garner had that role. 19 minutes ago, Andy73 said: I feel P&E are credible, authentic co-parents. I agree. I'm not sure they were like that when Paige was very young, but they obviously developed into parents who (at least until Paige started rebelling) both had good relationships with their children. And even if they had different parenting styles (which is normal for most couples), they were able to work together and usually present a united front. 1 Link to comment
Andy73 July 30, 2022 Share July 30, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, Paloma said: I agree but also remember a couple of flashbacks to scenes early in their fake marriage that suggested she did not really want to have kids and only did so (at least for the first one) because it was expected or required to make their cover as an ordinary American couple more believable. I think the first scene was when Elizabeth did not want to have sex and Philip said something to the effect that they would have to at some point so they could have a child. And the second scene I remember was when she approached Philip sitting on the bed and told him she was "ready"--I assume that meant either to have sex for the first time or to get pregnant, or both. But I still didn't get the impression she was enthusiastic about the idea of having kids. I remembered these scenes when, after the revelation of their real identities and jobs to Paige, one of the things she demanded to know is if she and Henry were really their children. Both Philip and Elizabeth responded that they were and they loved them, but Elizabeth's response was something to the effect of she (or they) always wanted and loved Paige and Henry. It struck me because it seemed not quite true for Elizabeth, though I understand why she had to say it. And the reality is that even for people who are not Russian spies or leading other types of secret lives, not everybody who has children initially wanted them. When my husband and I got married (second marriage for both, no children from the first marriages), I knew he really wanted to have children but I did not. Partly that was because as a young adult I had little exposure to children and did not feel comfortable with them, and partly it was because I had a terrible relationship with my mother and feared replicating that relationship if I had a child, especially a daughter. But because I knew how much my husband wanted children, I went to counseling alone and subsequently with him to work through my feelings. Eventually I reached a point where I could say "I'm ready" (like Elizabeth), but to some extent I was still pretending I was ready. Luckily, when my daughter was born my maternal instincts did kick in--a little too much, she would probably say, because I became overprotective. We did have a difficult relationship at times, but it got better once she was an adult and especially once she had a daughter. I'm not sorry I became a mother, but I'm still not sure I would have done it if it hadn't been important to my husband. (Sorry for the TMI, but this show sometimes brings out personal feelings.) Thank you sharing your story! And yes, The Americans is great because, at least, shows us a marriage’s story. In their marriage Philip and Elizabeth face problems that anyone couple could have. Spy stuffs just make everything cool. On Elizabeth’s motherhood, we are on the same page. I mean, I believe Elizabeth didn’t want children at first. I don’t know why… may be she was fear…. Or she wasn’t ready because she didn’t know well Philip… Then when she was pregnant she ran to Gregory… in the flashback with Zuchov where she was pregnant at Henry, she wasn’t sure she want to have him. But when she has them, everything changed. I feel she felt family real. Not the marriage, but the family! 2 hours ago, Paloma said: I agree. I'm not sure they were like that when Paige was very young, but they obviously developed into parents who (at least until Paige started rebelling) both had good relationships with their children. And even if they had different parenting styles (which is normal for most couples), they were able to work together and usually present a united front I don’t remember if I already said I go crazy listen someone tells the are not good parents. Edited July 30, 2022 by Andy73 2 Link to comment
Paloma July 30, 2022 Share July 30, 2022 5 minutes ago, Andy73 said: Then when she was pregnant she ran to Gregory… in the flashback with Zuchov where she was pregnant at Henry, she wasn’t sure she want to have him. I forgot about those scenes! Thanks for the reminder. 1 Link to comment
sistermagpie July 30, 2022 Share July 30, 2022 13 hours ago, Zella said: But yes Elizabeth is pretty pathetic in that scene. I think Elizabeth always had a complex about the kids seeming to prefer Philip. Interestingly, I don't know that she's really jealous of Philip over it, but I do think it hurts her feelings and makes her feel bad. It's always interesting to me to watch her when she is on assignment because she often is quite vivacious in a way that she isn't at home. I think she probably could have faked being the fun parent very well, but that just wasn't her demeanor, and she had to fake so much at home already. I think it's complicated for her--that's probably why she's so desperate to tell Paige the truth. She really wants to be known and appreciated by Paige. I wonder if, too, she always feels more like she's failing as a mother because she's so aware of how little she wanted to have children. She only had them because it was an order, but she loves them. I always thought it was interesting that after Paige learns the truth Elizabeth, kind of out of nowhere, tells her that she was wanted when that wasn't something Paige asked. So I think she always sees herself as necessarily cold and not "easy to love" (as she calls Claudia). On rewatch I also love the period where she's friends with Young Hee and seems to be trying to make that part of her real personality, coming home laughing at stuff like Patty and referring to her "friend" that she was with when both kids know she doesn't really have any friends. She's like a junior high girl who's got a new cool friend and is thrilled with it. But I don't think, as you say, that this translates into jealousy of Philip. Just sometimes she feels like it's easier for him. 2 hours ago, Andy73 said: Didn’t you really like Holly’s performance? I did! Ok, she is inexperienced, but she never came me flat. I think her character growed more than other child characters in other shows. In S6 I don’t like her not cause how she was written, but for her choices. Same as Philip… Honestly? No, I really don't. She's not comically bad, but she's not doing what everyone else is doing. She plays the surface of the scene in a literal way while obviously not feeling much or being specific and that's why it makes it seem like the writing for her is worse than it is for everyone else. And why people complained that her scenes were repetitive and she seemed a bit dim. They weren't really any more repetitive than anyone else's. They're played repetitively and don't much link together. I've been paying attention to it on rewatch because I know there were things about her that I didn't get the first time around, over and over I find the writing is actually much clearer, and taking her step by step to where she's going logically but none of that inner life makes it to the screen. 2 hours ago, Andy73 said: I think she has a complex too. But I don’t think she is jealous on Phil. On final S1 she want kids stay with him… she think this is the best for their. And really, it might be. I don't think Elizabeth is a terrible mother at all, but I think Philip just assumes dads are less important because he grew up in the post-war USSR where fathers were probably rare. Like even when Elizabeth wants to end their marriage because it distracts her from her work, it doesn't occur to anyone for Philip to stay with the kids. 2 hours ago, Paloma said: I agree but also remember a couple of flashbacks to scenes early in their fake marriage that suggested she did not really want to have kids and only did so (at least for the first one) because it was expected or required to make their cover as an ordinary American couple more believable. Definitely. She tells Leanne flat-out she never wanted kids, puts off telling Philip she's pregnant with Henry so she can change her mind. Decides to try to Paige more because of what's going on in Vietnam than because she's really ready to be a mother. Freaks out and runs to Gregory. None of these makes her a bad parent, but she might think they do. 2 hours ago, Paloma said: (Sorry for the TMI, but this show sometimes brings out personal feelings.) Not at all! And I think it's relevent. I remember once disagreeing with someone who said Elizabeth *did* want kids despite all her misgivings, and to me that sounded too much like what people usually say about people who don't want kids, like they don't know their own mind. She knows she didn't want them, genuinely. That doesn't mean she doesn't love them now, but she didn't work through those feelings. In fact, I always wonder if Elizabeth wouldn't be devestated to know that Gregory told Philip those things. He never uses them against her or accuses her of not wanting the kids, but as far as we know, all Elizabeth thinks Gregory told him is that they were having an affair etc. She probably has no idea that she told him about the night she ran away. 2 hours ago, Paloma said: When I described her character as one-dimensional, I didn't mean that the actress's performance was flat. I was really talking about the way she was written. When the writers gave her important scenes, she handled them pretty well. But I don't think she had the acting skills of Julia Garner ("Kimmy"). In fact, I sometimes wonder if I would have reacted differently to the character of Paige, especially in the first watch, if Julia Garner had that role. Like I said above, I think her performance makes the writing seem one-dimensional in ways it isn't. Like when I rewatched Munchkins I realized there was a ton of complicated stuff going on meant to move Paige from one place to another--it was a really important episode for her character. But it doesn't come across that way. Even people who praised her performance couldn't say what specifically was going on specifically. 2 hours ago, Paloma said: I agree. I'm not sure they were like that when Paige was very young, but they obviously developed into parents who (at least until Paige started rebelling) both had good relationships with their children. And even if they had different parenting styles (which is normal for most couples), they were able to work together and usually present a united front. Sometimes I link this to Elizabeth's own mother as well. Because she talks about her as if she was so cold--like when she's warning Paige that when she meets her she won't be like other grandmothers because she's just soooo tough. But the actual woman often seems perfectly loving--as does Elizabeth. Even when she's estranged from Henry she doesn't seem cold so much as distant and awkward. 2 Link to comment
Zella July 30, 2022 Share July 30, 2022 3 hours ago, Andy73 said: Are you sure she feels she has to fake at home? I feel P&E are credible, authentic co-parents. And I think Elizabeth feels the same I don't mean her personality at home is fake--I think it is pretty authentic to her--I just mean that she has to fake being an American and not, you know, a Soviet spy who despises America and capitalism. I don't think she has the energy to fake her personality with all that going on. 3 hours ago, Paloma said: I agree but also remember a couple of flashbacks to scenes early in their fake marriage that suggested she did not really want to have kids and only did so (at least for the first one) because it was expected or required to make their cover as an ordinary American couple more believable. I think the first scene was when Elizabeth did not want to have sex and Philip said something to the effect that they would have to at some point so they could have a child. And the second scene I remember was when she approached Philip sitting on the bed and told him she was "ready"--I assume that meant either to have sex for the first time or to get pregnant, or both. But I still didn't get the impression she was enthusiastic about the idea of having kids. Yes you are correct! There's also a very direct flashback about this in season 6 where it is very clear she wasn't at all enthusiastic about being a mom. 3 Link to comment
Paloma July 30, 2022 Share July 30, 2022 2 hours ago, sistermagpie said: I wonder if, too, she always feels more like she's failing as a mother because she's so aware of how little she wanted to have children. She only had them because it was an order, but she loves them. I absolutely believe this and relate to it. My daughter was and is very strong-willed, and I often felt that I was a failure as a mother whenever we were in conflict, because I wasn't able to react with patience and good humor like my husband. And I felt that my deficiencies as a mother were at least in part due to my originally not wanting to have a child and only doing so because my husband wanted to and I didn't want to lose him. 2 hours ago, sistermagpie said: She's not comically bad, but she's not doing what everyone else is doing. She plays the surface of the scene in a literal way while obviously not feeling much or being specific and that's why it makes it seem like the writing for her is worse than it is for everyone else. And why people complained that her scenes were repetitive and she seemed a bit dim. Playing the scene "in a literal way" is an excellent assessment of the actress. She acts dramatically when the scene calls for it, but you almost feel than anyone could act the scene in that way. I did see more depth on the rewatch, but I still think a better actress could have brought more inner life to the character rather than simply reacting to things. 2 hours ago, sistermagpie said: I remember once disagreeing with someone who said Elizabeth *did* want kids despite all her misgivings, and to me that sounded too much like what people usually say about people who don't want kids, like they don't know their own mind. She knows she didn't want them, genuinely. That doesn't mean she doesn't love them now, but she didn't work through those feelings. I meant to quote this above after the part about failing as a mother because it is directly related. Wanting children is such a cultural norm that a lot of people can't accept that some people really don't want to have them, for various reasons. I think that it is more acceptable today to say you don't want children than it was when I was growing up and when I was a young woman (my daughter was born in 1983) because more people may be able to understand that some women prioritize career over family, but even now most people will assume that all women really do want children and will regret it if they don't have them. Of course most women will love their children even if they didn't want to have them, but it will still be important to work through those feelings. It would have been interesting to me to see a few scenes of the early years with Paige and Henry, as Elizabeth adjusted to becoming a mother. I think there was one scene where she was holding a baby (I don't remember which one) while looking out a window, but I wondered how long it took for motherly love to develop and, more practically, how she continued to do her job when they were younger than school age. I would assume she had to take a break to at least recover from childbirth and be available for nursing (though they may have been bottle-fed from the start). Also, someone would have needed to be home with a baby, toddler, and preschool child unless they were in daycare. (And daycare may not have been as available in the early to mid 1970s as it is now.) But I can imagine that Elizabeth would have felt guilty if she was not carrying out missions for even a few months. 3 Link to comment
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