The Americans - General Discussion

[sistermagpie]

Just watched Darkroom—the one with the wedding, for which I am forever a sucker!

 

THE MORZOVS

Tuan, still feeling ashamed about his moment of weakness, proudly explains how he encouraged a group of bullies to put shit in Pasha’s locker. I feel like Philip, at least, is listening to this story and realizing that his entire job is doing this kind of thing on a larger scale, and how awful that is.

Left to themselves, seems like the Morozov’s would have made it. Kids at school weren’t focused on Pasha. Alexei was starting to admit that he missed Russia, because your life isn’t defined by the terribleness of your national conditions (an idea becoming more relevant by the day…). Evgenia regrets her impulsive affair and sees Alexei trying.

But our heroes will make sure none of this works and the family is separated for good on the off chance Evgenia’s affair will lead to something they can use back in Moscow.  

 

CLAUDIA

Claudia has one of her most pathetic moments in this ep, imo. The Jennings confront her the USSR using the biological weapons they claimed they’d only use in self-defense after a nuclear attack in Afghanistan. Claudia isn’t troubled by it, but she does report that the wheat sample Gabriel brought back was “stolen” from them, because it’s a strain of Russian wheat, or at least partly that.

I mean, that’s pathetic. Scientists are openly working on different strains of wheat. They didn’t have to steal it, and the fact that this strain is Russian doesn’t mean anything besides Russia produces hearty wheat—which only makes the fact they’re relying on imports worse!

 

OLEG

Oleg seems to be preemptively letting his partner know that the state’s suspicion of him is all just because he worked abroad for two years. Damn, he managed to get into a lot of trouble in that short time!

 

STAN

Stan and Adderholt are still working Sofia. Her scenes are more impressive after seeing the actress in Anora playing a very different character.

This ep introduces the bathroom caper that will confuse everyone in S6. Here the main thing I notice is that undeveloped film is important to it, linking it to another scene in the episode.

Stan goes on a double date with the Jennings. Philip is still worried about Renee, saying he doesn’t want Stan to be another Martha—again, I don’t get why anyone would think that Philip isn’t trying to help Stan in the garage by finally telling him his suspicions about her.

Renee mentions going home to see family, but since Philip doesn’t see this as a mark in her favor, we can’t either.

 

ELIZABETH

In a moment of dark foreshadowing, Elizabeth claims with satisfaction that Paige is starting to see Pastor Tim for “what he really is” after reading his diary. Iow, she thinks Paige is beginning to see Tim how she herself does. She’s somewhat right about that, but only in the sense that Paige is starting to agree with everything Elizabeth says whether or not she really believes it. But eventually it will be Elizabeth Paige sees for “who she really is.”

I know some thought it was out of character for Elizabeth to agree to a religious wedding, but to me that’s all the more reason it’s important to understand how it’s not.

The title of this ep refers to a few types of dark room. The actual one where they develop film at the end, and also the dark room the EST leader talks about. I always put a lot of importance on that metaphor for the idea of moving forward instinctively, doing what you know is right for you in the moment without being able to see what’s ahead, but listening to it again I realize how much that idea is buried in EST gobbledybook about being a machine and enlightenment blah blah blah. God, I hate EST talk.

Imo, Elizabeth’s choice to get married this way is revealing something in her character. She is, remember, the one who was touched by Clark and Martha’s wedding back in S1, despite that also being a church wedding. For her, as for most people, it was just about the vows to the other person. Surprising as it might seem, Elizabeth is the real romantic of the couple.

If Elizabeth was someone who would turn down a romantic secret wedding in Russian under her real name to the one person she’s chosen just for herself and her own happiness on the technicality that she’s against religion, then she has very little to her besides the rules of Communism. There is definitely more to her.

 

PHILIP

Philip often gets criticized for not doing or saying the right thing to make Paige happy again, but I think his advice to her is pretty consistently good. The problem is that it’s also honest, so relies to much on her being fully responsible for herself on her own, and she’s not ready to do that.

Inspired by EST, he tells her that whatever Pastor Tim wrote in his diary doesn’t define her. If somebody wrote something about her that she sees as true but doesn’t like, she can change. Paige is completely resistant to this idea. Philip, otoh, seems a little less resistant to Paige’s on advice about how he should let Henry go away to “a better place.”

Btw, I’ve heard a couple of people suggest that Philip’s whole reason for the wedding is the news that there will be “more Tai Chi” in Elizabeth’s future and he’s acting out of jealousy of Stobert, like Elizabeth can’t fall in love with him if she’s married?

This makes no sense to me. We haven’t even seen Stobert for a while (and won’t ever again), and the last time we did see him, Elizabeth was discovering she was just one of many women he was entertaining, which made her think less of him. When Philip told Elizabeth she liked him, he wasn’t accusing her of catching feelings, he was encouraging her to acknowledge her own feelings and deal with them.

I think the wedding’s more obviously another example of him following the EST advice into another dark room with Father Andre. (I love, btw, the moment when Philip takes off his light disguise, because he looks like a peasant doffing his hat to propose.)

Elizabeth’s agreeing to religion in this scene gets more focus, but I think Philip’s own choices about a wedding here are just as important. On a practical level, meeting Father Andre just gave him an opening for a wedding he wouldn’t have otherwise. But I think it’s more than that in a meta sense. It was Elizabeth, not Philip, who was touched by the Martha wedding. The fact that he’s only brought the idea up now when there’s a chance for a Russian wedding—one that even requires somebody “getting to Moscow” for the last step—seems significant to me, and not just because Elizabeth would like that.

A lot of people just insist Philip hates Russia and is totally American, freezing him in the pilot and ignoring anything after that could contradict that. But his development throughout the show has always led him back towards Russia rather than away from it. He’s choosing to get married in Russian (and Church Slavonic) under his real name.

In S6, Philip’s going to remember this wedding and decide to tell Elizabeth about his work with Oleg, bringing Elizabeth and the Russian context of these vows together. The Russian part of this isn’t just something he’s ignoring, like Elizabeth’s ignoring references to Jacob and Rebecca. This is how he envisions a real wedding too, so it’s handy in S6 when the two come together again.

 

PAIGE

The biggest story of this ep is Paige going through another major emotional and psychological change. So as usual, watching it, it seems like she’s the same as always, despite deciding to send Pastor Tim to South America.

The story’s written pretty clearly and efficiently, and most have no trouble interpreting it as her rejecting Pastor Tim when he proves himself a liar. So it surprised me on rewatch how hard it was to follow any real emotional logic on screen. It just feels very surface, like there’s not that much at stake.

Script-wise, the subtext is more clear. When she brings home the diary pages, she highlights passages about how he loved his work in South America, and felt a connection to the people and country. This echoes how, when she was talking to Philip about sending Henry to school, she said Henry knew there was “a better place for him.”

On first watch I sort of dismissed that as Paige dramatically implying there was no real place for her in the world, but now I think it’s more complicated. She does see where she wants to be, and it’s right where she is now, at home with her parents, where she can punish them for ruining her life by blaming them for her own self-destructive choices. That, imo, is why she doesn’t want to hear that she can just not listen to Tim’s view of her. (Not that I think she’s aware of all this.)

Her given reason for sending Tim away is that while she’s not mad at him and he’s been good to her, he hasn’t been good for their family. That sounds like Elizabeth talking. She’s the one who’s always described him that way, and here’s Paige now agreeing with her. But the only way Tim is threatening the family now is pointing out that this situation is screwed up.

Paige only really has 2 people in her life besides her parents. They both represent a life away from them, and now she’s getting rid of both of them. Henry’s living proof that you can be the child of P&E and live your own life, and she thinks he also belongs somewhere else. Of course, it’s also a chance to remind Philip that the longer his children are with them, the more screwed up they’ll be. She says he’s “different” but again it’s not clear what she means. Different from her? Or from her, Philip and Elizabeth that she’s come to think of as the family? She’s shrinking her world to just her and her parents—and even Philip will eventually get somewhat replaced by Claudia.

She talks as if this is about what’s best for Pastor Tim and Henry, but I think the real impulse here is much darker. Unfortunately, it really doesn’t feel that way on screen.

The most obvious example of that, for me, is the scene that imo should be the most important in the story, the one where Pastor Tim, the guy who’s caused the problem, appears in person. Here again, the script seems really clear: at the food bank, Pastor Tim gives Paige a pep talk that’s the opposite of what he said in the diary, so he’s being two-faced—and in the very next scene she rejects him. It’s hard to interpret that scene as anything other than a test he’s failed.

The whole episode sets that scene up to be no-brainer dramatic. It’s one of the Paige scenes that has a twin with Martha. In Martha’s case, it’s the scene where Clark comes over after the pen’s been found. The scene’s way tense because we know that Martha knows something about Clark now that he doesn’t know she knows. In fact, even if one missed the first part of the ep where the pen was found, or even never saw anything but this scene—it would still be tense because you can tell something like that’s happened from Martha’s performance. Even Clark can see it—he just can’t openly ask about it, which makes the scene even more tense.

There’s something similar here with Paige. Except it’s not tense at all. In fact, you could take this scene as performed out and move it to an ep before Paige read the diary and it would play exactly the same way! Paige has basically two lines. She says, “I think about the people that need this stuff, waiting on line for food. Makes me feel pretty lucky.”  

And when Pastor Tim agrees she’s lucky, says she’s grown and is moving in the right direction, she says, “I don’t know. Sometimes I feel like…” That kicks off an even bigger pep talk from him.

There’s many ways different actors might choose to play that, but surely all of them would be about what was in that diary? Is she baiting him to lie? Baiting him to tell the truth? Doing an imitation of her former naïve self? Desperately hoping he’ll try to save her and so show he cares enough to do that? Channeling her anger and hurt over the diary into a too-cheerful cover?

On screen, she’s doing none of that. She’s sighing and staring into the middle distance, as if lost in her own dreary thoughts and barely aware of Tim. She doesn’t seem to have a reason for the line about people at the food bank besides it being in the script, and doesn’t even seem to notice that Tim’s response contradicts the diary entry she’s been obsessing over, because she’s too deeply naval gazing, pausing only briefly to politely glance at him as if she’s listening.

It just comes across like the actress has no idea what Pastor Tim means to Paige or why this scene is the turning point to getting rid of him. It doesn’t feel like she’s made any important decision at all, which is amazing when you think of everything this character represents to hers. So I honestly have no idea how that food bank scene was supposed to make her feel and how exactly it leads to the self-destructive choices she’s going to make. On the page she could be disgusted at him revealing himself to be another liar. She could be devastated that he thinks she’s too far gone—or just not important enough to him—to try saving. She could want to become a spy to prove how wrong he was about her—or how right he was about her. But onscreen what I’m seeing is just that she decided to send him away. Hell, maybe she just did it for an excuse to show her parents the diary. She’s just passively moping her way to the next burden.

 

PASTOR TIM

Since Paige isn’t acting any different in the food bank scene, Pastor Tim doesn’t get a chance to react to her nervously like Clark did with Martha, but again, it still seems like his dialogue is meant to be that. Kelly O’Coin does, imo, inject a little falseness into his lines. But I can’t help but wonder what it would have been like if Paige was more aggressively looking for something from him or in him.

I can imagine  how this kind of scene would feel with Kimmy instead of Paige, for instance, with Pastor Tim’s babbling being a little more sweaty.

Because my interpretation of Tim is that he washed his hands of Paige after coming back from Africa and since then he’s been pushing her toward her parents as their problem. But in private he can’t let go of his role as her savior, so she has to be doomed without him. He gets to be the tragic moral hero even while not getting involved. That might be harder to do if she as challenging him on it, however subtly.

Edited December 3, 2024 by sistermagpie

[BlackberryJam]

@sistermagpie

I’m rewatching the show again, mostly because I wanted to relive Elizabeth’s reaction to Reagan and to know that seemingly destructive political choices are survivable. 

I came across these summaries. I haven’t gone back to read them all, just the last five or so. And you really nail the problems with Paige’s scenes. It’s not just the acting, it’s the direction as well. Paige’s “inner monologue” is just a superficial annoying buzz. 

Regarding Deidre and Philip, I really saw such a difference in Philip in how in S1 he was able to work Martha, anticipate her needs and fulfill them, and I don’t just mean the sex. He’s floundering with Deidre not just because she is aggressively independent but because he has lost a feel for the work. He no longer has the energy and will to attune himself to Deidre to get her to bond. The sex with her is perfunctory and barely satisfying for either of them, so different from Clark who took the time to rock Martha’s world.  Philip isn’t Clark anymore, and he has no idea who Gus Alexander is. 

Stobert sucks. So much. He’s just such a self-important douche. It’s easier for Elizabeth to work him because he doesn’t want to know anything about Brenda. He just needs an audience. Elizabeth can do that with her eyes closed.

Each rewatch gives me more. Such a good show. Thanks for these @sistermagpie

Edited December 3, 2024 by BlackberryJam

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

@sistermagpie

I’m rewatching the show again, mostly because I wanted to relive Elizabeth’s reaction to Reagan and to know that seemingly destructive political choices are survivable. 

I have been thinking about it that way too a lot!

 

Quote

 

And you really nail the problems with Paige’s scenes. It’s not just the acting, it’s the direction as well.

 

That's true. You really do have to wonder what the directors are thinking there.

 

2 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

 Philip isn’t Clark anymore, and he has no idea who Gus Alexander is. 

I never thought about it this way but what you said here--and especially this sentence--really sums it up. Exactly right. There is no Gus.

2 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

Stobert sucks. So much. He’s just such a self-important douche. It’s easier for Elizabeth to work him because he doesn’t want to know anything about Brenda. He just needs an audience. Elizabeth can do that with her eyes closed.

Right? It surprises me that there are people who talk about this guy as if he was a somehow important relationship for her, like a connection and somehow she might have liked as a boyfriend if she was living her real life, but all he does is talk at her and occasionally throw a platitude her way. She would eventually have noticed that!

Edited December 3, 2024 by sistermagpie

[BlackberryJam]

19 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

 

Right? It surprises me that there are people who talk about this guy as if he was a somehow important relationship for her, like a connection and somehow she might have liked as a boyfriend if she was living her real life, but all he does is talk at her and occasionally throw a platitude her way. She would eventually have noticed that!

The ease with which she is able to handle Stobert makes her feel confident and powerful, while Philip is clearly floundering. Stobert makes Elizabeth feel that she’s good at her job and that what she’s doing is important. Elizabeth doesn’t like Stobert for who he is, because he’s just a windbag. She likes that she doesn’t have to put in a lot of work to him. 

This is in contrast to how much work she’s having to put into the relationship with Philip. She doesn’t understand his interest in EST. She is frustrated by him questioning the work and his apparent loss of commitment to the cause. 

At the same time, she’s stuck playing happy families with Tuan and Philip while listening to the Alexei. I see her as comparing Philip and Alexei. Alexei likes America. He likes the food, the stuff people have, all of that. Philip “likes it here too much.” The Morozov job feeds into her loss of confidence in Philip while everything about the Stobert job validates her.

Do you have thoughts on Tuan and Paige? 

[sistermagpie]

4 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

Do you have thoughts on Tuan and Paige? 

So far, I feel iike one the points of the Morozov family is that both Philip and Elizabeth have ideas about how they could possibly hold on to the kids after they grow up. In Philip's case, he imagines going back to Russia with them so they could live as themselves. For Elizabeth, she doesn't have a plan for Henry but is totally fantasizing about training Paige into an agent like her.

With this operation Philip's seeing Alexei's son dragged to another country and he's miserable and he hates his father for it, so maybe that dream isn't so great. He's kind of haunted by split-up families throughout the show, and this one's the most in his face.

With Elizabeth, she's got Tuan playing a kid who's all in on the cause, and it seems like she sees what she wants to see ith that and thinks Paige can totally be like that too. I know in some ways Tuan is like a younger Elizabeth, totally dedicated and not wanting connections to people, but then, Paige wants Paige to be a younger version of herself too so maybe that's a good thing to her? 

I remember that Tuan is going to reject her a bit when he accuses her of being soft and says she ought to have reported him etc. I don't think that's exactly foreshadowing with Paige since Paige rejects her for the opposite reason (and she's really rejecting her, not just blaming her for her own insecurities or whatever Tuan is doing there), but it does feel like it shows how putting the cause before everything else isn't so great for relationships.It always sort of amazes me how Elizabeth just never seems to think about how all her proteges on the show die either by her choice or by her hand when she's training Paige, who's nowhere near on their level.

It's still funny to me how totally confident Elizabeth is this season. She has her moments of doubt, but in general it seems like she feels like she's just got everything under control and getting everyone in line and once she's got everything arranged the way she thinks is great she's going to hate it.

What do you think about them?

[BlackberryJam]

I both disliked and pitied Tuan. I am assuming he was very young looking, but actually early 20s. He grew up in horrible conditions and then with a family of white saviors. He’s holding a lot of resentment and anger. That’s what makes him so dedicated to the cause.

Paige has grown up relatively spoiled and pampered (although Philip and Elizabeth are often absent). 

Elizabeth appreciates Tuan’s dedication, but I don’t think she likes him. She asks Philip if Tuan talks about girls. This is also happening around the time Paige breaks up with Matthew. So we’ve got two “teenage” trainees who are single. (However, I thought that Tuan might be gay?)

After Tuan “turns” on Elizabeth and Philip and say he’s going to report them, Elizabeth cuts him to the bone, telling Tuan that he’s not going to make it. She shatters Tuan’s confidence deliberately and intentionally. I don’t like Tuan, but Elizabeth is deliberately cruel. 

Elizabeth then tells Tuan that he’s needs a partner. And Paige has broken up with Matthew.

It just seems…complicated and layered and I never quite understood if I was supposed to see parallels there. I didn’t feel like it was fully developed. I was hoping there was more insight, something to help me see what I feel like I’m missing. 

Also, can I add in that Stan Beeman is a crap father. Did people really think he was a good dad? He fully admits he doesn’t understand his own son, and hey Stan, maybe it’s because you left him for three years to go undercover. Stan makes his preference for Henry over Matthew abundantly clear. Such a crap parent. 

[Zella]

I can't stand Tuan, but the scene where he tells them he's reporting them for their "petty, bourgeois concerns" cracks me up every time I think of it. He's such an idealogue that I don't see him surviving long in the intelligence field, but his one-upping Elizabeth on communist theory, when she frequently berates Philip for his perceived weakness in this area, is genuinely funny to me. 

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

Elizabeth appreciates Tuan’s dedication, but I don’t think she likes him. She asks Philip if Tuan talks about girls. This is also happening around the time Paige breaks up with Matthew. So we’ve got two “teenage” trainees who are single. (However, I thought that Tuan might be gay?)

Elizabeth then tells Tuan that he’s needs a partner. And Paige has broken )up with Matthew.

I remember that line. Yeah, it is interesting. I don't think Elizabeth had any thought of getting the two of them together. People often thought Hans would be used for that purpose as well (another guy in his 20s) but it seems like the main thing Elizabeth wants to sheild Paige from is anything involving mixing sex and work. Plus i don't think she'd want Paige spending any time with a spy Elizabeth didn't control enough. Who knows what he might reveal, after all.

So I took the line maybe more as Elizabeth just thinking about Paige's situation through Tuan, almost like a substitute she can observe. Or the line could be purely practical, that she's wondering if girls might distract him? I can't remember exactly when he says it. i think it's when she's thinking she should go spend time with him, which feels like a way of her playing out her feelings about really bringing Paige into the work. Like she's got everything under control, the way she's overseeing Tuan and everything's fine there.

 

3 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

Also, can I add in that Stan Beeman is a crap father. Did people really think he was a good dad? He fully admits he doesn’t understand his own son, and hey Stan, maybe it’s because you left him for three years to go undercover. Stan makes his preference for Henry over Matthew abundantly clear. Such a crap parent. 

This is such a pet peeve of mine, that Stan gets described as this great father because he...ignores the son he's deeply hurt in favor of hanging out with the kid across the street who thinks he's cool and he never has to actually parent him. It's like people want to criticize Philip and Elizabeth so much they pretend they don't know what family is and decide it's the person in your life you have the easiest relationship with. Even when Henry stops hanging out at Stan's and is talking to Philip all the time, it doesn't count. If the kids were hanging out in the empty Jennings house drinking beer it would be more proof of how they neglect the kids, but it somehow reflects well on Stan!

It's especially funny when they also describe Henry as a do-over son for Stan, like Matthew didn't work out. Matthew is still alive! The scene where Matthew returns to him after a long absence hoping to repair their relationship and finds Henry there acting like he owns the place is almost comically insensitive. And then they play a game and Stan leaves Matthew to watch Rocky Horror with a 12 year old while Stan leaves for the entire night. Welcome home, Matthew!

To me, this is a pattern with Stan, that he constantly chooses easy relationships over deeper, more difficult ones. So he prefers Nina, who tells him he's a hero, over Sandra who calls him out. He prefers Henry, who treats him like a hero and goes home after the movie's over, to Matthew who calls him out. Then he marries Renee, who also treats him like a hero, even though she seems totally fake.

3 hours ago, Zella said:

I can't stand Tuan, but the scene where he tells them he's reporting them for their "petty, bourgeois concerns" cracks me up every time I think of it. He's such an idealogue that I don't see him surviving long in the intelligence field, but his one-upping Elizabeth on communist theory, when she frequently berates Philip for his perceived weakness in this area, is genuinely funny to me. 

It is hilarious! You gotta wonder if she or Philip make that exact connection.

 

[BlackberryJam]

16 hours ago, Zella said:

I can't stand Tuan, but the scene where he tells them he's reporting them for their "petty, bourgeois concerns" cracks me up every time I think of it. He's such an idealogue that I don't see him surviving long in the intelligence field, but his one-upping Elizabeth on communist theory, when she frequently berates Philip for his perceived weakness in this area, is genuinely funny to me. 

The look on Philip’s face is like, “you complete and total little shit, who the fuck do you think you’re talking to?” I compare this scene to the later scene of Philip going to see Paige at the apartment and Paige tells him that he’s not like her and Elizabeth. He then spares with her to show her exactly who can be if he chooses. Philip killed Elizabeth’s rapist with his bare hands, and then killed that man in the greenhouse with his bare hands. Philip may care and be questioning himself, but he’s also been absolutely ruthless.

I think Elizabeth tells Philip to give her a minute because she knows Philip can be ruthless when he chooses. She also knows that she can deal with Tuan in a better way.

@sistermagpie I don’t know if I was thinking Elizabeth wanted Tuan and Paige to be a couple as much as she was trying to imagine Paige’s future. Unless Paige married another 2nd Generation Illegal or another spy, Paige is going to end up just as alone as Tuan is. 

As to Paige and sex, Elizabeth is alternately casual about Paige having sex and then instructing Paige not to use sex. At some point later, Elizabeth says to Claudia that if something happens to Elizabeth, Claudia can “finish” with Paige. I always thought that finishing with Paige would mean teaching her how to use sex. The women have already had talks about their first times.

13 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

To me, this is a pattern with Stan, that he constantly chooses easy relationships over deeper, more difficult ones. So he prefers Nina, who tells him he's a hero, over Sandra who calls him out. He prefers Henry, who treats him like a hero and goes home after the movie's over, to Matthew who calls him out. Then he marries Renee, who also treats him like a hero, even though she seems totally fake.

 

I had no idea anyone thought Stan Beeman was a good father. Sandra is the good parent in that set. I always found Stan’s relationship with Henry borderline creepy. Clearly Henry is looking for parenting and guidance that he’s not getting at home. Stan enjoys spending time with someone who doesn’t remind him what a deeply flawed human he is.

I agree that Stan always chooses the easy relationship. And WOW is Renee making it easy for him.  I think Philip thinks Renee is an illegal/spy based on the fact that Stan brings almost NOTHING to the table, so it’s weird that Renee is making it that easy.

I do, however, love Renee’s Jane Fonda Workout clothes. Haha. 

[sistermagpie]

 

I do agree about that Philip scene--it's so funny the few times he really allows himself to get fully annoyed at somebody. And both Tuan and Paige come across as so insufferable and arrogant respectively in those scenes. (That's another scene where going by my memory of it, I feel would play much more interestingly if Paige could do subtext!

On 12/5/2024 at 1:11 PM, BlackberryJam said:

@sistermagpie I don’t know if I was thinking Elizabeth wanted Tuan and Paige to be a couple as much as she was trying to imagine Paige’s future. Unless Paige married another 2nd Generation Illegal or another spy, Paige is going to end up just as alone as Tuan is. 

Yeah, I think she's got to be thinking of Tuan and imagining Paige in some way. But I also wonder if Elizabeth is more thinking that would be fine for Paige to not have a true partner, since she's imagining Paige having a very different job than she has. Plus, at that point she might be just imagining her having her mother. For instance,

On 12/5/2024 at 1:11 PM, BlackberryJam said:

As to Paige and sex, Elizabeth is alternately casual about Paige having sex and then instructing Paige not to use sex. At some point later, Elizabeth says to Claudia that if something happens to Elizabeth, Claudia can “finish” with Paige. I always thought that finishing with Paige would mean teaching her how to use sex. The women have already had talks about their first times.

I get the opposite impression. I think she's convinced herself Paige will just photocopy things at the state department and never have to use sex. In the scene where they talk about their first times, Claudia does introduce thte idea of sex in exchange for something--and Paige rejects the idea. But I can't believe Elizabeth's "first time" story is true at all. She was definitely telling the truth to Philip when she said she'd never had a boyfriend. I don't think she was trying to have sex with a rando whose name she doesn't even remember just to do it.

So to me it seems like she goes back and forth because she's so conflicted about it. She blatantly lies about sex work being part of her job even when Paige knows it's true (until Paige really pushes her), but she's also so freaked out about the idea of Paige ever doing it that she makes it totally obvious that she's lying about it being a thing.

On 12/5/2024 at 1:11 PM, BlackberryJam said:

I had no idea anyone thought Stan Beeman was a good father. Sandra is the good parent in that set. I always found Stan’s relationship with Henry borderline creepy. Clearly Henry is looking for parenting and guidance that he’s not getting at home. Stan enjoys spending time with someone who doesn’t remind him what a deeply flawed human he is.

It's very strange, because Stan is obviously not able to do what he needs to do as a father, but somehow people think he can make up for it by entertaining the kid across the street That's so not parenting!

I have a theory about Henry, too, there, where people assume that since he hangs out with Stan it means he's specifically lacking a father, when to me it seems like the reason Henry has a series of older male role models and mentors and male friends in his life (Stan, Matthew, his guidance counselor, Chris's dad, dads of his friends at school, the hockey coach...) is in part because he's so comfortable with men because of his father's always been warm and nurturing.

Meanwhile, his history with women is a string of girls he can't have, whether it's Sandra Beeman, his science teacher, Brooke Sheilds, Chris (who never seems to become his actual girlfriend) and some girl at school he says dumped him for reasons he doesn't understand in S6.

It's almost too perfect how he's recreating his parental relationships to me. He loves his Dad, but maybe senses he doesn't really know him so fills that with men who are fully themselves and want to guide him. He loves his mom, but...

On 12/5/2024 at 1:11 PM, BlackberryJam said:

I agree that Stan always chooses the easy relationship. And WOW is Renee making it easy for him.  I think Philip thinks Renee is an illegal/spy based on the fact that Stan brings almost NOTHING to the table, so it’s weird that Renee is making it that easy.

I do, however, love Renee’s Jane Fonda Workout clothes. Haha. 

She does wear them well! But yeah, compare her to Sandra and she just seems barely real.

Edited December 7, 2024 by sistermagpie

[BlackberryJam]

The Paige storyline could have been so much better with a better actress and better direction. There is a scene of Paige relatively early in the series where she’s complaining about her “entire crazy mixed up life” and I just want to giggle. Like, girl, you’re 15, you’ve barely lived enough to call your life crazy. That scene was so silly and not believable.

I found Elizabeth very confusing in S6 when it came to Paige. She’s teaching her self-defense but acts like Paige will never have to use it. Elizabeth kills the guy who got Paige’s ID. She’s livid with Paige for running into the Colonel’s suicide. She’s telling Philip how good Paige is doing. 

I know that it’s showing us how the work is getting to Elizabeth, but she’s so waffle-y. 

Speaking of S5 Elizabeth, I wondered if they intended an HIV or herpes storyline with her.  Keri Russell has a mole on her lip which was much more prominent in some episodes. They have her looking so rough at times. An STI would make sense for her or Philip. 

There’s a scene in S1 when Henry says Shit and Philip says something like, “language” and Paige says she was grounded for 2 weeks for cursing. I think Philip was definitely more warm and nurturing towards Henry, but also that Henry tended to get away with more, as younger children sometimes do. Then again, Henry was literally breaking into someone’s home and hanging out, but Paige got punished for going to church.

Just other thing from my rewatch(es), Philip and Elizabeth have three garages but only seem to use one, right?

 

 

[Domestic Assassin]

9 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

Just other thing from my rewatch(es), Philip and Elizabeth have three garages but only seem to use one, right?

 

They only had the one, but sometimes the show forgot to hide or CGI out the other two.

[sistermagpie]

On 12/8/2024 at 10:40 PM, BlackberryJam said:

The Paige storyline could have been so much better with a better actress and better direction. There is a scene of Paige relatively early in the series where she’s complaining about her “entire crazy mixed up life” and I just want to giggle. Like, girl, you’re 15, you’ve barely lived enough to call your life crazy. That scene was so silly and not believable.

Yeah, I cringe at that line. It sounds like Paige has no idea what she means or why she's saying it, but I can't blame the actress on that one.

On 12/8/2024 at 10:40 PM, BlackberryJam said:

I found Elizabeth very confusing in S6 when it came to Paige. She’s teaching her self-defense but acts like Paige will never have to use it. Elizabeth kills the guy who got Paige’s ID. She’s livid with Paige for running into the Colonel’s suicide. She’s telling Philip how good Paige is doing. 

I haven't gotten to S6 yet in my rewatch, but when I think about it, it seems like a lot of the time Elizabeth is trying to convince herself that everything's going well when it obviously isn't. Like when Paige screws up with losing her ID Elizabeth just assures her that that's normal (which it isn't), then randomly tells Philip that Paige is good at this stuff even after she realizes that not only did Paige lose her ID, she got the guy's name totally wrong. She even tries to tell Philip that she did that, but makes it seem much less important than it was.

Then over the season she seems to get more freaked out by the problems so she's more aggressive about telling her she did wrong, but still acts like it's fine. So I tend to take as her just really trying to believe things are the way she wants them to be, if she just makes some adjustments like cleaning up after Paige's mistakes or getting her into a desk job where she's "safe?"

It's maybe a bit harder to buy given that Paige always seemed to come across as so arrogant and clueless!

On 12/8/2024 at 10:40 PM, BlackberryJam said:

Speaking of S5 Elizabeth, I wondered if they intended an HIV or herpes storyline with her.  Keri Russell has a mole on her lip which was much more prominent in some episodes. They have her looking so rough at times. An STI would make sense for her or Philip. 

I remember people thinking that at the time--especially when I think she uses a birthmark on her face at one point that people thought seemed like it was real.

On 12/8/2024 at 10:40 PM, BlackberryJam said:

There’s a scene in S1 when Henry says Shit and Philip says something like, “language” and Paige says she was grounded for 2 weeks for cursing. I think Philip was definitely more warm and nurturing towards Henry, but also that Henry tended to get away with more, as younger children sometimes do. Then again, Henry was literally breaking into someone’s home and hanging out, but Paige got punished for going to church.

Oh yeah, I think he definitely gets treated as the younger kid who got away with more. Although Paige also often objected more to everything, so that might have played into it too.Like when he's breaking into houses we know that Henry already felt really bad about it...but you can definitely still see it from Paige's pov as the big sister.

[BlackberryJam]

I started back on S1. I had forgotten that in the episode where Claudia has Philip beaten up to determine if he’s the mole (it’s Nina), that Paige and Henry end up hitchhiking home with a total creeper. Henry ends up bashing the guy in the back of the head with a beer bottle. They don’t tell Elizabeth and Philip.

Later in the series, Philip remembers beating up (killing?) the boys that were bullying him. I would have liked to have seen some call back to Henry there as I’d forgotten.

Also, DRINKING GAME:  “what happened to Amador”, take a shot. We’d be wasted very quickly. Stan’s murder of Vlad is just horrific in retrospect. Not that Philip stabbing Amador was acceptable, but Amador came at Philip. Vlad was just jogging and then eating some fast food. Stan is so NOT a good guy. I love the character, but I have no illusions about him.

 

[Zella]

8 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

Also, DRINKING GAME:  “what happened to Amador”, take a shot. We’d be wasted very quickly. Stan’s murder of Vlad is just horrific in retrospect. Not that Philip stabbing Amador was acceptable, but Amador came at Philip. Vlad was just jogging and then eating some fast food. Stan is so NOT a good guy. I love the character, but I have no illusions about him.

I also felt so sorry for Vlad! 

Though I will also admit there was a part of me that was already so attached to Arkady that I was relieved he burned his hand on a capitalist potato and was not available to be kidnapped. Leave Arkady alone! 

[sistermagpie]

10 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

Later in the series, Philip remembers beating up (killing?) the boys that were bullying him. I would have liked to have seen some call back to Henry there as I’d forgotten.

Yeah, on rewatch there's a lot of parallel stuff between Henry and Philip that doesn't get underlined, but is there. Henry's life echoes Philip's a lot even without each one knowing about the other one. It took me a long time to connect these two things too!

10 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

Also, DRINKING GAME:  “what happened to Amador”, take a shot. We’d be wasted very quickly. Stan’s murder of Vlad is just horrific in retrospect. Not that Philip stabbing Amador was acceptable, but Amador came at Philip. Vlad was just jogging and then eating some fast food. Stan is so NOT a good guy. I love the character, but I have no illusions about him.

I really appreciate how many repercussions that act had--and such a stupid act it was. It's one of the many things that damages Gaad's career, and Gaad even reminds Stan of it, but Stan never really stops wanting support from Gaad (or his widow). LOL!

[BlackberryJam]

14 hours ago, Zella said:

I also felt so sorry for Vlad! 

Though I will also admit there was a part of me that was already so attached to Arkady that I was relieved he burned his hand on a capitalist potato and was not available to be kidnapped. Leave Arkady alone! 

Oh YES, I was ridiculously attached to Arkady. When he got PNGed, I was so pissed. Arkady never even had his own storyline, but I adored him. After Vasili and his gross relationship with Nina, I appreciated Arkady not fucking her, and also not fucking Tatiana when she came along. I always wanted more Arkady.

13 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Yeah, on rewatch there's a lot of parallel stuff between Henry and Philip that doesn't get underlined, but is there. Henry's life echoes Philip's a lot even without each one knowing about the other one. It took me a long time to connect these two things too!

I really appreciate how many repercussions that act had--and such a stupid act it was. It's one of the many things that damages Gaad's career, and Gaad even reminds Stan of it, but Stan never really stops wanting support from Gaad (or his widow). LOL!

They could have cut so much of the Paige crap and given us more Henry and Philip. UGH. Paige ruins everything. 

You’re right about the repercussions. Stan was a one man wrecking machine. For as many people as Philip and Elizabeth killed, Stan’s cold-blooded murder of Vlad always stood out. I think it ranks up there with Philip in the greenhouse and Elizabeth killing the Teacups for viciousness. 

And Stan thinks he’s a good guy. I loved Mrs. Gaad putting him in his place. 

[Zella]

5 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

Oh YES, I was ridiculously attached to Arkady. When he got PNGed, I was so pissed.

I was beside myself with rage on his behalf and also utterly delighted when he popped back up in season 6!

[sistermagpie]

4 hours ago, Zella said:

I was beside myself with rage on his behalf and also utterly delighted when he popped back up in season 6!

 

9 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

Oh YES, I was ridiculously attached to Arkady. When he got PNGed, I was so pissed. Arkady never even had his own storyline, but I adored him. After Vasili and his gross relationship with Nina, I appreciated Arkady not fucking her, and also not fucking Tatiana when she came along. I always wanted more Arkady.

And when he shows up again he basically becomes the big damn hero, figuring out the plot and choosing Oleg and Philip for his team to save Gorbachev. Couldn't have asked for better for Arkady--the guy who came up with the abort signal on the cars back in S1!

9 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

They could have cut so much of the Paige crap and given us more Henry and Philip. UGH. Paige ruins everything. 

I really did find it frustrating, I admit. I remember saying something about wanting more Philip/Henry scenes on Twitter and one of the Joel's either replied or liked it, making me think one was coming up...but then it didn't.

9 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

You’re right about the repercussions. Stan was a one man wrecking machine. For as many people as Philip and Elizabeth killed, Stan’s cold-blooded murder of Vlad always stood out. I think it ranks up there with Philip in the greenhouse and Elizabeth killing the Teacups for viciousness. 

And Stan thinks he’s a good guy. I loved Mrs. Gaad putting him in his place. 

That scene's like the quintessential Stan--right up there with having Henry there acting like he owns the place when Matthew finally comes back to visit him. "Hey, just wanted to make it clear that I've got plenty of time to hang out with kids, I'm just avoiding you."

Then when he sees Mrs. Gaad she talks about none of the FBI guys coming to see her and Stan, who seems to have worked pretty closely with the guy, has only come to get her blessing to protect some random KGB guy after the KGB killed her husband. 

[BlackberryJam]

 

4 hours ago, Zella said:

I was beside myself with rage on his behalf and also utterly delighted when he popped back up in season 6!

Arkady with his shirt sleeves rolled up, spray painting cars, did things for me. I own it. The conversation with Arkady and Oleg in Moscow about Philip and Elizabeth, how Philip is different. So much to unpack there. And then Arkady played chauffeur to Philip and Elizabeth at the end. Loved it. 

I have often wondered, when Philip and Elizabeth were crossing the border, what they said to the guard and who he called. I would have loved a silent scene of Arkady picking up the phone, giving the go ahead and then him closing a file, standing and grabbing his coat, making the choice to meet them himself rather than send a lackey. Ahhh…Arkady Ivanovich. He was so far superior to Gaad as a character.

27 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

That scene's like the quintessential Stan--right up there with having Henry there acting like he owns the place when Matthew finally comes back to visit him. "Hey, just wanted to make it clear that I've got plenty of time to hang out with kids, I'm just avoiding you."

Then when he sees Mrs. Gaad she talks about none of the FBI guys coming to see her and Stan, who seems to have worked pretty closely with the guy, has only come to get her blessing to protect some random KGB guy after the KGB killed her husband. 

I despised Matthew’s hair but loved it when he said to Stan, “it’s a drag show, every one wears makeup, doesn’t mean I’m gay.” Matthew just knows how to read his father. Stan did draw in Henry as an easy to handle replacement son. 

I always got the feeling that Mrs. Gaad got no visitors because she was Vietnamese. Like she’d have something the FBI guys would see as weird, foreign grief that must be avoided. 

Thinking about it, we saw so many female KGB operatives and pretty much no women other than secretaries at the FBI. Elizabeth, Kate, Leanne, Claudia, Irina, Annalise, Nina, Aunt Helen, Tatiana, Lucia (although she was a Sandinista), Marilyn, the blonde woman at the call center who makes borscht and let’s not forget Renee. No wonder the FBI kept getting fooled by women. 

Edited December 12, 2024 by BlackberryJam

[Zella]

16 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

He was so far superior to Gaad as a character.

I actually really enjoyed Gaad too. I didn't love him like I did Arkady--who's like an all-time top 5 TV character for me--but I did find him entertaining. Even him beating the shit out of the poor innocent Mail Robot, another fave of mine, cracks me up every time I think about it. 

Particularly love when he asks Stan if Nina ate him for breakfast with this expression and tone that suggests that, yep, he already knows that Stan has lost that battle. 

The little random drop-in scenes he and Arkady do to each other are some of my favorite moments in the whole show. 

Edited December 12, 2024 by Zella

[sistermagpie]

 

22 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

I have often wondered, when Philip and Elizabeth were crossing the border, what they said to the guard and who he called. I would have loved a silent scene of Arkady picking up the phone, giving the go ahead and then him closing a file, standing and grabbing his coat, making the choice to meet them himself rather than send a lackey. Ahhh…Arkady Ivanovich. He was so far superior to Gaad as a character.

Yes! I so believe he did this. It's amazing to think how he first appears in, I think, episode 2 as the second in command and then goes on to be one of the most universally beloved characters, all without ever having to do anything super flashy. He's not killing anybody etc., but spray-painting those cars is just it. 

I admit I completely cheered in that scene with him and Oleg bringing in Philip. It's the perfect contrast to what's going on with Claudia and her gang and Elizabeth. Arkady wants guys who sometimes go rogue because he wants people who are genuinely volunteering for this mission he knows he can trust.

22 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

I despised Matthew’s hair but loved it when he said to Stan, “it’s a drag show, every one wears makeup, doesn’t mean I’m gay.” Matthew just knows how to read his father. Stan did draw in Henry as an easy to handle replacement son. 

Matthew's hair is one of the biggest mysteries of the series to me. I think I even did a post on one of the S4 eps about how weird it is that one of the few things we know about him is that he went to Rocky Horror and was in a band early on, yet dresses and does his hair like he's never heard of MTV, much less chosen a favorite band.

22 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

Thinking about it, we saw so many female KGB operatives and pretty much no women other than secretaries at the FBI. Elizabeth, Kate, Leanne, Claudia, Irina, Annalise, Nina, Aunt Helen, Tatiana, Lucia (although she was a Sandinista), Marilyn, the blonde woman at the call center who makes borscht and let’s not forget Renee. No wonder the FBI kept getting fooled by women. 

It's true! We do get a couple of CIA women (Gaad's colleague that helps in the would-be Arkady kidnapping) and the woman Elizabeth gets the Afghan committee list from--but even she's almost turned because of sexism! The FBI, meanwhile, seems like a big boy's club. I wonder if the domestic Russian law enforcement would skew the same way.

22 hours ago, Zella said:

I actually really enjoyed Gaad too. I didn't love him like I did Arkady--who's like an all-time top 5 TV character for me--but I did find him entertaining. Even him beating the shit out of the poor innocent Mail Robot, another fave of mine, cracks me up every time I think about it. 

He does have some of the best lines (my personal fave: Disappeared? Is she Doug Henning?). I also really do like the way the show hints at his backstory in Vietnam without it being cliche at all. Heh--makes me think of that moment when Stan says he didn't serve since he was in the FBI at the time and Gaad says he was too but he volunteered with just the right amount of potential judgemental tone.

22 hours ago, Zella said:

The little random drop-in scenes he and Arkady do to each other are some of my favorite moments in the whole show. 

That scene they have in the snow always reminds me of that winter's snowpocolypse.

[Zella]

27 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I also really do like the way the show hints at his backstory in Vietnam without it being cliche at all. Heh--makes me think of that moment when Stan says he didn't serve since he was in the FBI at the time and Gaad says he was too but he volunteered with just the right amount of potential judgemental tone.

Yes! I also find his relationship with Stan fascinating. I always had the impression that Gaad didn't like Stan as much as Stan assumed he did, which I don't actually judge because, though I like Stan as a character, he really would be a pain in the neck to any superior. LOL And that Vietnam line was one reason, but there are other little moments throughout the show where Gaad seems annoyed or quietly contemptuous of Stan. 

[sistermagpie]

20 hours ago, Zella said:

Yes! I also find his relationship with Stan fascinating. I always had the impression that Gaad didn't like Stan as much as Stan assumed he did, which I don't actually judge because, though I like Stan as a character, he really would be a pain in the neck to any superior. LOL And that Vietnam line was one reason, but there are other little moments throughout the show where Gaad seems annoyed or quietly contemptuous of Stan. 

Totally--and with good reason! I remember there's also a scene where Stan drops by his house and Gaad's pointedly reminding him of how Stan's screwed up his life. In fact, iirc, Stan says says something apologetically like "I feel responsible for that" and Gaad says, "You are responsible for it."

And Gaad's right! It would be like Philip saying he feels responsible for the state of Martha's life as if he's being generous. 

It's one of the things I find so amusing about Stan and lines like this really show it's intentional. It kind of slips the maverick hero stereotype on its head when he mentions how most of the office hates him. But it also sets up how this guy will have no guilt about letting the Jennings go.

[BlackberryJam]

I appreciate Gaad more on rewatch when I can pay attention to his little digs and comments. I also wanted to punch Gaad in the face for being so oblivious to Amador’s blatant sexism and borderline harassment of Martha. I mean, it never occurred to the FBI even once that Amador was being a fucking creeper and that maybe he was just in the wrong place at the wrong time and no one went after him with an intent to kill.

Yes, I wanted to punch Chris Amador in the face multiple times. 

The scene of Arkady and Gaad in the snow is great. Arkady is clearly saying, “your Chris Amador was a target of value, a full-fledged counterintelligence agent who could have disclosed valuable information, while Vlad was a boy.” Gaad is unwilling to give an inch, even though he likely knows that Vlad and Amador were in no way equivalent targets. Arkady is also letting Gaad know that he’s personally vulnerable, which is so interesting considering how Gaad eventually died.

Stan is just such a shit to people. He’s horrible to Sandra and Nina, he doesn’t listen to anything Tori is telling him. He falls for Renee because she’s designed to be his perfect woman and he never has to go beneath the surface.

I think if anyone at the FBI had treated Martha with respect, if they listened to her and let her do more than order supplies and retrieve files, she never would have been turned.

 

 

Edited December 15, 2024 by BlackberryJam

[Zella]

5 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

Yes, I wanted to punch Chris Amador in the face multiple times. 

He is so annoying! I refuse to believe anyone genuinely misses him. LOL

[sistermagpie]

On 12/14/2024 at 4:30 PM, BlackberryJam said:

Yes, I wanted to punch Chris Amador in the face multiple times. 

 

 

19 hours ago, Zella said:

He is so annoying! I refuse to believe anyone genuinely misses him. LOL

I remember people trying to rewrite him as a good guy, like as if he was actually at Martha's because he thought she was turned and was trying to catch Clark or whatever and just...no. The guy's literally just trying to use his badge to scare off a potential rival. And this after he only lost Martha because he cheated on her. Something we know he's going to keep doing, since his entire relationship with Stan seems to be about encouraging him to cheat on his hot wife. Sorry but yeah, there's some satisfaction in watching a law enforcement agent try to bully a civilian and finding out he's outmatched. Philip gave him a chance to get away. Philip wasn't even armed--Amador pulled a gun and a knife!

He's definitely part of the reason Martha is so open to Clark too.

[BlackberryJam]

On 12/12/2024 at 10:04 PM, sistermagpie said:

Matthew's hair is one of the biggest mysteries of the series to me. I think I even did a post on one of the S4 eps about how weird it is that one of the few things we know about him is that he went to Rocky Horror and was in a band early on, yet dresses and does his hair like he's never heard of MTV, much less chosen a favorite band.

I meant to comment on this and forgot. Matthew was a missed costuming opportunity. They could have had him in a series of band t-shirts, REM, U2, Violent Femmes, the Smiths, New Order. And Stan could have asked awkward questions about each one. 

19 hours ago, Zella said:

He is so annoying! I refuse to believe anyone genuinely misses him. LOL

Amador was a total dick. I get that was his role, but he was such an asshole that I found him distracting. Aderholt was a definite upgrade. He had enough personality to be a defined character, but I never wanted to shove him off the screen. There was also opportunity for Stan’s 1980’s racism to come through, but Stan’s such a Teflon character. None of his bad deeds really stick to him. 

So…Kimmy. Julia Garner is great in the role. And I looked it up, she was 20/21. The disguise for Philip was so perfect. He looked just like a skeezy dude hanging around with a young girl. The way Gabriel kept pushing Philip to work her plays differently to me know knowing how Langella behaved on the Usher set. I don’t think that was “new” behavior.

4 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

 

I remember people trying to rewrite him as a good guy, like as if he was actually at Martha's because he thought she was turned and was trying to catch Clark or whatever and just...no. The guy's literally just trying to use his badge to scare off a potential rival.

Amador led with his penis in every interaction. 

Edited December 15, 2024 by BlackberryJam

[sistermagpie]

3 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

I meant to comment on this and forgot. Matthew was a missed costuming opportunity. They could have had him in a series of band t-shirts, REM, U2, Violent Femmes, the Smiths, New Order. And Stan could have asked awkward questions about each one. 

Right?! It's so weird to me. Music has always been tied to fashion, but the 80s was maybe one of the most obvious decades for that. I look at Matthew and can't begin to guess what kind of music he's into, yet he's supposed to be into music enough that he briefly imagined himself in a band? He looks like he's wearing the same fashion he wore in elementary school in the 70s. Who's even cutting his hair like that? Yet he's okay wearing eyeliner?

3 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

Amador was a total dick. I get that was his role, but he was such an asshole that I found him distracting. Aderholt was a definite upgrade. He had enough personality to be a defined character, but I never wanted to shove him off the screen. There was also opportunity for Stan’s 1980’s racism to come through, but Stan’s such a Teflon character. None of his bad deeds really stick to him. 

That was always a big thing to me that Stan was presented as exactly as subtly racist as a suburban guy of his age in that time would be in polite company....yet we're supposed to believe he lived as a Nazi for 3 years? I'm not saying he actually is the guy he pretended to be, but that ought to be informing a lot of his interactions in some way. He talks about them being violent but leaves out the bigotry that is the basis for the whole thing.

3 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

So…Kimmy. Julia Garner is great in the role. And I looked it up, she was 20/21. The disguise for Philip was so perfect. He looked just like a skeezy dude hanging around with a young girl. The way Gabriel kept pushing Philip to work her plays differently to me know knowing how Langella behaved on the Usher set. I don’t think that was “new” behavior.

Amador led with his penis in every interaction. 

I remember a quote where Matthew Rhys said they were working on the look for Jim and the costume/make up/hair people kept asking women, "So, if you were 16...." which of course made him even more skeeved out. LOL!

I love Julia Garner ass Kimmy. Whenever somebody talks about Martha being some great outlet for Philip where he finds comfort or help etc. And once you can relax about him not having sex with her (until she's older, at least) I kind of like the relationship. I feel like it gets Philip thinking about or processing things in his own life in ways many people seem to think only Martha does. But I feel like there's less stress with Kimmy since he's not trying to get her to do anything for him except hang out.

[BlackberryJam]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

Right?! It's so weird to me. Music has always been tied to fashion, but the 80s was maybe one of the most obvious decades for that. I look at Matthew and can't begin to guess what kind of music he's into, yet he's supposed to be into music enough that he briefly imagined himself in a band? He looks like he's wearing the same fashion he wore in elementary school in the 70s. Who's even cutting his hair like that? Yet he's okay wearing eyeliner?

Matthew was just around to make Stan feel bad about himself and further the Paige storyline. Otherwise, they left him has a blank slate. I also don’t think the actor was bringing a lot to the table. 

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

That was always a big thing to me that Stan was presented as exactly as subtly racist as a suburban guy of his age in that time would be in polite company....yet we're supposed to believe he lived as a Nazi for 3 years?

There is a scene where Aderholt asks Stan out for a beer, saying he wants to talk about Stan working undercover with the white supremacists. Stan says yes to the beer but says he’s not going to discuss the undercover work. Initially, Stan is so uncomfortable with a black colleague until Dennis does exactly what Renee does, make the relationship easy for Stan. 

Even Sandra makes the breakup easy for Stan. When he keeps coming to her to tell her things, elicit sympathy, clear his conscience, she just acknowledges what he says and walks away. 

Stan is the most emotionally lazy and coddled man. Typical 80s white dude. 
 

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

I love Julia Garner ass Kimmy. Whenever somebody talks about Martha being some great outlet for Philip where he finds comfort or help etc. And once you can relax about him not having sex with her (until she's older, at least) I kind of like the relationship. I feel like it gets Philip thinking about or processing things in his own life in ways many people seem to think only Martha does. But I feel like there's less stress with Kimmy since he's not trying to get her to do anything for him except hang out.

There is a scene of Philip and Kimmy sitting on some steps outside. She’s wearing a perfect 80s pink sweater. He’s in a heavy coat. At one point she complains about being cold, Philip keeps rolling a joint. She mentions being cold at least twice more I think before Philip offers to cuddle with her. He’s so reluctant to touch her even in what should be a platonic way. 

I don’t think Martha is the person who gets Philip thinking. He’s always working her. I particularly remember when he plays the edited tape for her of the guys in Gaad’s office basically calling her unfuckable. Afterwards, she clearly needs him to boost her ego with sex and he says he can’t. The way he undermines her confidence is so calculated. 

I think Philip liked Martha and eventually felt like crap for destroying her life, but it’s just the job with her. Sure, he can compare her with his marriage to Elizabeth, but she doesn’t make him all introspective. 

You’re right. That is Kimmy. With Kimmy, he can’t escape how sleazy working her makes him feel. When he looks at Kimmy, he also sees Paige. Kimmy has serious Daddy issues and way too little parental oversight. I think his relationship with Kimmy is what gets Philip to the point of accepting Paige’s turn towards religion. I mean, at least she’s not meeting skeezy old dudes and getting high with them. Couple that with Elizabeth’s jealousy of Kimmy, which is a carryover of her jealousy of Martha. But Philip keeps saying to Elizabeth, “do you really think I’m sexually attracted to a girl our daughter’s age?” But Elizabeth isn’t listening.

Philip and Elizabeth might have the most complicated TV marriage ever. 

[sistermagpie]

On 12/15/2024 at 7:07 PM, BlackberryJam said:

Matthew was just around to make Stan feel bad about himself and further the Paige storyline. Otherwise, they left him has a blank slate. I also don’t think the actor was bringing a lot to the table. 

I remember someone saying that everytime they cut to a Paige/Matthew scene they felt like they were suddenly watching a high school play and I admit, I see it. Though there is something believable in them both being kind of bland people who are into each other because they're conveniently located and the correct gender and age.

On 12/15/2024 at 7:07 PM, BlackberryJam said:

There is a scene where Aderholt asks Stan out for a beer, saying he wants to talk about Stan working undercover with the white supremacists. Stan says yes to the beer but says he’s not going to discuss the undercover work. Initially, Stan is so uncomfortable with a black colleague until Dennis does exactly what Renee does, make the relationship easy for Stan. 

Although it's hilarious how he unintentionaly makes things uncomfortable by asking obvious questions about Nina. Like how dare he suggest that spies you're playing can play you back!

On 12/15/2024 at 7:07 PM, BlackberryJam said:

Even Sandra makes the breakup easy for Stan. When he keeps coming to her to tell her things, elicit sympathy, clear his conscience, she just acknowledges what he says and walks away. Stan is the most emotionally lazy and coddled man. Typical 80s white dude. 

He really does manage to find so many people willing to do that emotional labor for him. Philip offers to have his date over for dinner to make it easier for Stan. Then there's Tori the EST woman who, annoying as she is, is willing to call Stan for a date and just keep offering herself. He's a super easy target.

On 12/15/2024 at 7:07 PM, BlackberryJam said:

There is a scene of Philip and Kimmy sitting on some steps outside. She’s wearing a perfect 80s pink sweater. He’s in a heavy coat. At one point she complains about being cold, Philip keeps rolling a joint. She mentions being cold at least twice more I think before Philip offers to cuddle with her. He’s so reluctant to touch her even in what should be a platonic way. 

Yes! And he knows he's there to do just that but he's just soooo reuctant to do it. And she's so gleeful when she gets him to do it. She's so cute in that scene. I love the moment when she starts to dance and she's obviously questioning hersef about whether she looks cool or not. She's performing even harder than Philip is, because she's really invested.

On 12/15/2024 at 7:07 PM, BlackberryJam said:

I don’t think Martha is the person who gets Philip thinking. He’s always working her. I particularly remember when he plays the edited tape for her of the guys in Gaad’s office basically calling her unfuckable. Afterwards, she clearly needs him to boost her ego with sex and he says he can’t. The way he undermines her confidence is so calculated. 

I think Philip liked Martha and eventually felt like crap for destroying her life, but it’s just the job with her. Sure, he can compare her with his marriage to Elizabeth, but she doesn’t make him all introspective. 

Yes! I think it certainly makes him feel guilty, but honestly doesn't seem to have any great insight into him personally. Even when he tells her something true about himself, it's usually with the purpose of getting her on his side and it just works.

Like it sometimes strikes me how transactional the Clark/Martha relationship always is. Somebody recently even described the two of them as working things out collaboratively and I thought that was nuts. He only cares what she wants to the extent that he has to work around it to get what he needs. 

But Martha, too, does a lot of quid pro quo. Like the first time he spends the night she basically lays out how she loves him and will do all this stuff for him...so he needs to prove something by staying the night. Likewise, when he proposes, he does it because he knows he has to give her something big to get something big in return. Martha is always, on some level, aware that her power in the relationship comes from what she's giving him and doing for him.

On 12/15/2024 at 7:07 PM, BlackberryJam said:

You’re right. That is Kimmy. With Kimmy, he can’t escape how sleazy working her makes him feel. When he looks at Kimmy, he also sees Paige. Kimmy has serious Daddy issues and way too little parental oversight. I think his relationship with Kimmy is what gets Philip to the point of accepting Paige’s turn towards religion. I mean, at least she’s not meeting skeezy old dudes and getting high with them. Couple that with Elizabeth’s jealousy of Kimmy, which is a carryover of her jealousy of Martha. But Philip keeps saying to Elizabeth, “do you really think I’m sexually attracted to a girl our daughter’s age?” But Elizabeth isn’t listening.

Philip and Elizabeth might have the most complicated TV marriage ever. 

Yeah, I think he gets a chance to help a teenager with a lying parent. Also I feel like it makes him think about being a teenager himself in some ways, how he was manipulated. Of course he sees that with Paige too, but with Kimmy he's not her father. I wonder sometimes if on some level he gets that in some ways he's a stunted adolescent since his development was taken over by the Centre around that time. His character, Jim, is able to sort of grow up with her in ways that the real Jim never would have.

[BlackberryJam]

18 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I remember someone saying that everytime they cut to a Paige/Matthew scene they felt like they were suddenly watching a high school play and I admit, I see it.

Hahhaha. Preach. I was born in 1970, so I am of an age with Paige. Her hair needed more frizz and AquaNet. But yeah, neither actor was bringing it.

19 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Although it's hilarious how he unintentionaly makes things uncomfortable by asking obvious questions about Nina. Like how dare he suggest that spies you're playing can play you back!

But but but, NINA LOVED HIM and she was PLAYING BUROV! No way could Nina not have been totally in love with the awesomeness that is Stan Beeman. It’s all Oleg’s fault! Stan lives in such a delusional state. 

Re: The transactional nature of Clark and Martha. 

Every time we see Philip with her, he’s either fucking her, manipulating her or managing her emotions so he can get what he wants from her. He’s not being his true self or even trying to share his thoughts and feelings with her. She’s pleasant enough for him and he doesn’t hate the interaction but he is always working her. 

Martha makes it easier for Philip by being emotionally open and clear about what she wants and needs from him. He never has to guess about what’s going to make her happy. 

19 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Yeah, I think he gets a chance to help a teenager with a lying parent. Also I feel like it makes him think about being a teenager himself in some ways, how he was manipulated. Of course he sees that with Paige too, but with Kimmy he's not her father. I wonder sometimes if on some level he gets that in some ways he's a stunted adolescent since his development was taken over by the Centre around that time. His character, Jim, is able to sort of grow up with her in ways that the real Jim never would have.

Philip is trying to unpack the fuckedupness of his life. When he tells Elizabeth about beating the kid to death with a rock, Elizabeth’s response is “good, they deserved it,” which is not what Philip needs at all. I think of that scene where Philip keeps opening the door during his training and there’s a new person he has to fuck on the other side. 

Elizabeth being raped was horrific, but there were definite consent lines there. What Philip (and Elizabeth) went through with the sex training is a whole different kind of mindfuck. I always felt it implied that the next person after than man that Philip would have to screw would be a child, and either they weren’t showing that to us, or Philip had blocked it out. I mean, 15 year old Kimmy was the next step, right?

 

[BlackberryJam]

So...still rewatching episodes. Philip's sex with Kimmy is some of the least sexy sex that ever sexed. He looks completely miserable. 

The scene in the show where Philip is happiest is the line dancing bit at the beginning of S6. Matthew Rhys moves well. You can see he was just having a great time in that one. And compared to Elizabeth, he just looks so relaxed and healthy. MR and KR are so damn good in those roles. 

I am repeatedly just floored by how well music was used in this show, and I love the fact that the music rights were paid all the way through syndication (I'm looking at YOU, Northern Exposure, but I suppose Joshua Brand learned his lesson.)

The finale episode with Dire Straits, U2 and then Tchaikovsky is just perfect. There is an scene in season 5 when Elizabeth and Philip are fighting over training Paige and she says to him, something like, "I'm going ahead with this, with or without you." And on rewatch, that "With Or Without You" just so stood out, knowing how Paige walked away to that song. 

In fact, I can't hear "Goodbye Yellow Brick Road" without thinking about Elizabeth looking at her shoes.

I also appreciate Igor Burov so much more on rewatch. Boris Krutonog does so much with his face in his final scene, looking at Oleg's wife and the baby.

I have tried to process the evidence of espionage when it comes to Oleg. All they have him doing is picking up a coded message. They have zero proof about what the message says. And if it says, "Hey Oleg, tell your people that some of our people are after Gorbachev," then I don't know how that leads to an espionage conviction. That's not classified information about the US or US national defense. A key element of the crime is specific intent to harm the United States. I think the FBI has a bunch of speculation about Burov but no actual proof that that he did anything.

So in my head, after 8 months or so of the US attorney dicking around and trying to put pressure on him, Oleg is released and deported. 

Of course, what is he going back to? I mean, what did Philip and Elizabeth return to? Arkady, in sending Oleg, was acting outside Directorate S, because he was unsure of who he could trust in his own organization.  How much cover did he have? The plot against Gorbachev obviously failed, but it's not like the old guard and the Claudias just vanished. 

Elizabeth killed Tatiana and foiled that assassination attempt and she told Claudia that. Of course, it likely didn't make any official report.

Speaking of post-canon, I've often thought that Paige ended up running to Pastor Tim. She has the passport and money. Why go back to the apartment?

I'm not sure why I have this show on repeat right now, except that it is engaging and satisfying, while also being comforting.

[Domestic Assassin]

12 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

I also appreciate Igor Burov so much more on rewatch. Boris Krutonog does so much with his face in his final scene, looking at Oleg's wife and the baby.

 

That frustrated, devastated gesture Igor makes with his arms as he's walking away from Arkady in the park might just be my favorite moment of the finale.

[sistermagpie]

10 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

The scene in the show where Philip is happiest is the line dancing bit at the beginning of S6. Matthew Rhys moves well. You can see he was just having a great time in that one. And compared to Elizabeth, he just looks so relaxed and healthy. MR and KR are so damn good in those roles. 

Also funny that I remember MR saying how much he hated that scene because he thinks he's a terrible dancer and they had to keep yelling at him to look like he was having fun. I think he doth protest too much.

10 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

In fact, I can't hear "Goodbye Yellow Brick Road" without thinking about Elizabeth looking at her shoes.

That song's become a real Americans connect for me too!

10 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

So in my head, after 8 months or so of the US attorney dicking around and trying to put pressure on him, Oleg is released and deported. 

I tend to think that too. With Gorbachev still in power, seems like he'd be able to put in a good word for him, especially if there's any way to prove he was uncovering a plot that was about Russia--and that was working against the USA's interests as well.

10 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

Of course, what is he going back to? I mean, what did Philip and Elizabeth return to? Arkady, in sending Oleg, was acting outside Directorate S, because he was unsure of who he could trust in his own organization.  How much cover did he have? The plot against Gorbachev obviously failed, but it's not like the old guard and the Claudias just vanished. 

I always figured Claudia was supposed to be telling us something of the truth when she imagined them all doomed if they got caught in their plot. I don't think they'll vanish completely, obviously, but I don't think Arkady, the Burovs or the Jennings are in much danger from them. After all, it's not like they betrayed them or anything. They weren't part of their group to begin with. Except a Elizabeth who got tricked into it.

10 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

Speaking of post-canon, I've often thought that Paige ended up running to Pastor Tim. She has the passport and money. Why go back to the apartment?

I think because her main thing was she can't really live happily as anybody but her exact self. She wants to be Paige in America who gets to tell people about her weird parents, at least.

But it seems really fitting to me how despite the fact that they make a point of showing her having to face the future alone, it's hard not to imagine her next step as seeking out some adult from her life to take care of her--go to Stan, go to Pastor Tim. Some even mistakenly think she's in there expecting Claudia for help. (And yet some this also goes along with the idea she's somehow going to "take care" of Henry--makes no sense to me.)

10 hours ago, Domestic Assassin said:

That frustrated, devastated gesture Igor makes with his arms as he's walking away from Arkady in the park might just be my favorite moment of the finale.

Totally agree--I love that gesture!

[BlackberryJam]

I had drafted a very long response but somehow never posted it and it got lost in the ether. DRAT. So I'm trying to recreate.

On 12/23/2024 at 10:28 PM, sistermagpie said:

Also funny that I remember MR saying how much he hated that scene because he thinks he's a terrible dancer and they had to keep yelling at him to look like he was having fun. I think he doth protest too much.

MR also dances in the pilot, while at the mall, totally humiliating Paige. It so reminded me of my own dad who used to sing and dance in public all the time. Paige was born in '68 and I was born in '70, so I was experiencing the world through the same aged lens. Which is why I find Holly Taylor just...not good. Anyway, I think joy is harder to convey than tragedy, which is why either MR was having a great time dancing or he's a better actor than I thought.

On 12/23/2024 at 10:28 PM, sistermagpie said:

I always figured Claudia was supposed to be telling us something of the truth when she imagined them all doomed if they got caught in their plot. I don't think they'll vanish completely, obviously, but I don't think Arkady, the Burovs or the Jennings are in much danger from them. After all, it's not like they betrayed them or anything. They weren't part of their group to begin with. Except a Elizabeth who got tricked into it.

I think those hardliners never truly went away. I mean, look at Russia now.

I remember "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down that wall," even though I was never a Reagan fan. That was a moment, but it was also full of so much uncertainty. Could the Soviets be trusted? Should they be? Philip and Elizabeth had worked in the shadows to win the Cold War, when in the end, it just sort of fizzled away. Does that make them heroes? Or soldiers having committed atrocities in a war that never had a winner? Would they be celebrated? Shunted away to make way for a new way of looking at things? Arkady didn't even trust his own agents. 

I know thinking post-canon is just an exercise in frustration, but I've always been one to do it.

On 12/23/2024 at 10:28 PM, sistermagpie said:

 

I think because her main thing was she can't really live happily as anybody but her exact self. She wants to be Paige in America who gets to tell people about her weird parents, at least.

But it seems really fitting to me how despite the fact that they make a point of showing her having to face the future alone, it's hard not to imagine her next step as seeking out some adult from her life to take care of her--go to Stan, go to Pastor Tim. Some even mistakenly think she's in there expecting Claudia for help. (And yet some this also goes along with the idea she's somehow going to "take care" of Henry--makes no sense to me.)

I know Paige was supposed to be a college student at the end, but I struggled seeing her older than 17. As a character, she never matured for me. I get what you're saying about living as her authentic self as her ending. I just struggled so hard with the character. She never had an authentic self for me.

Henry. I generally enjoyed Henry, but the final scene of him sitting in the bleachers with Stan involved some serious terrible acting on Keidrich Sellati's part. I didn't buy that Stan had just told him that his parents were Russian spies who fled the country without him. His reaction read more like, "Oh no, one of my five hamsters ran way, how could it do that to me?"

On 12/23/2024 at 12:05 PM, Domestic Assassin said:

That frustrated, devastated gesture Igor makes with his arms as he's walking away from Arkady in the park might just be my favorite moment of the finale.

YES. I could feel the devastation. And his scene with Oleg's wife. Both of them, it's just a gut punch. So much better than Stan's scene with Henry. 

I've been mulling over Hans and the anti-apartheid movement as well as Soviet-Afghan War. So much political legacy that makes this show all the more fascinating. 

[sistermagpie]

On 12/29/2024 at 7:50 PM, BlackberryJam said:

I had drafted a very long response but somehow never posted it and it got lost in the ether. DRAT. So I'm trying to recreate.

Hate that!

On 12/29/2024 at 7:50 PM, BlackberryJam said:

 Paige was born in '68 and I was born in '70, so I was experiencing the world through the same aged lens.

She was born in 67--total nitpick, but I only say it because I was born in 68 and spent most of the show thinking she was also born the same year so we'd have been in the same class. When somebody corrected me I was sure I was right--but then I worked it out and they were right. She'd have been born probably in November 1967, class of 1985--it lines up with everything we've got for her on the show.

On 12/29/2024 at 7:50 PM, BlackberryJam said:

I remember "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down that wall," even though I was never a Reagan fan. That was a moment, but it was also full of so much uncertainty. Could the Soviets be trusted? Should they be? Philip and Elizabeth had worked in the shadows to win the Cold War, when in the end, it just sort of fizzled away. Does that make them heroes? Or soldiers having committed atrocities in a war that never had a winner? Would they be celebrated? Shunted away to make way for a new way of looking at things? Arkady didn't even trust his own agents. 

I recently watched "Say Nothing," another F/X show, this one about the IRA and it definitely made me think of P&E. Lots of people who did terrible things believing it was for the greater good, and winding up thinking it was all for nothing. There are so many people who historically have part of things like that that fizzle out or lose support or get put down. It seems so important in that moment, but in the future people are like, "Oh yeah, that was a thing at that time."

On 12/29/2024 at 7:50 PM, BlackberryJam said:

I know thinking post-canon is just an exercise in frustration, but I've always been one to do it.

I do really like that I can imagine one thing, then imagine something else. There's no ideas about what will happen that I really think are right, just a few general vibes that seem right to me.

Because everybody's lives are going to change. People often seem to do what to me seems like a Harry Potter future, where they take something the character did during the show and assume their life will be based around that when that's not realistic. But of course, when people try to deal with building a whole new world for people it's completely made up so it's probably not right either. Like if I could never predict season 4 after season 3, how could I know the future post-show? It's going to be really complicated. I feel like P&E are going to have to find their own way, the two of them, rather than slot into any standard types of 90s Russia, for instance.

On 12/29/2024 at 7:50 PM, BlackberryJam said:

I know Paige was supposed to be a college student at the end, but I struggled seeing her older than 17. As a character, she never matured for me. I get what you're saying about living as her authentic self as her ending. I just struggled so hard with the character. She never had an authentic self for me.

On one hand, you could argue that her character's development is stunted by everything that happened so she kind of is 17 still at the end. But that really doesn't seem to be anybody's intention--on the contrary it feels like the show wants her to be mature and outgrowing Elizabeth's control. But I agree, it doesn't seem like it. (To me, that's never more obvious as in that confrontation with Elizabeth over honeytrapping Jackson. I've probably analyzed that scene more than any other on the show and it seems like it's meant to be Paige having a realization about herself and finally being able to face Elizabeth on her level as an adult--but instead it's just a repeat of adolescent Paige confronting Elizabeth in David Copperfield.)

Part of it is to me she seems to still be a child actor even at the end, which makes the character seem childlike. Paige doesn't seem like she exists between scenes--she sleeps in the prop closet, as somebody I knew once used to say. 

It occured to me, for instance, after watching Darkroom how it probably should feel like something happened when she sends Pastor Tim away. The relationship should have some weight just for how long we've been with it. He's been on since S2 and he's been a big part of Paige's life. Their relationship has changed a lot. But I honestly don't feel like they had any relationship at all. I don't feel like he ever meant anything to her, so it barely even seems like a change. Like with Stan and Henry, I feel like those two have the relationship presented on the show--they went through a period of hanging out when they both wanted it and Henry was a little kid, and now they have a residual fondness for each other. With Pastor Tim it's just more like, "Oh, are you still on the show?" even though he's the main person in Paige's life after her parents. It doesn't even feel like he's somebody she used to worship and has grown to dislike.

It's just really hard to feel anything for or with her, even though on paper she's in a juicy complicated situation. Her biggest moments all become about what other people are feeling--like when she gets off the train or when her parents tell her their secret. Their relationship with Pastor Tim seems real!

On 12/29/2024 at 7:50 PM, BlackberryJam said:

Henry. I generally enjoyed Henry, but the final scene of him sitting in the bleachers with Stan involved some serious terrible acting on Keidrich Sellati's part. I didn't buy that Stan had just told him that his parents were Russian spies who fled the country without him. His reaction read more like, "Oh no, one of my five hamsters ran way, how could it do that to me?"

LOL. Yeah, it's kinda...it really might have been better to just have Stan call him over off the hockey rink and have Henry skate over to him looking wary.

On 12/29/2024 at 7:50 PM, BlackberryJam said:

I've been mulling over Hans and the anti-apartheid movement as well as Soviet-Afghan War. So much political legacy that makes this show all the more fascinating. 

That was such a great addition to the show--I think I also wrote some whole thing here about my theory that one of the other purposes Hans fills is to show us what an imperfect but competent newbie looks like. A lot of Paige's spy scenes echo his, but to contrast how much she's failing.

Edited December 31, 2024 by sistermagpie

[Zella]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

Part of it is to me she seems to still be a child actor  even at the end, which makes the character seem childlike. Paige doesn't seem like she exists between scenes--she sleeps in the prop closet, as somebody I knew once used to say. 

Yes I agree with this. Paige is clearly intended to be very complex, but I don't buy that she has an inner life. Contrast that with Arkady, who gets much less screen time, but he really does seem like someone who has an existence outside the show and a full personality beyond his role in the show. 

I really feel like the biggest problem is Holly Taylor is just simply not as good of an actress as the rest of the cast. To clarify, I don't think she is awful, but I do think she's much better in the earlier seasons when she's just the daughter with mysterious parents. I think that she is fine in that.

But as she's asked to do more complicated scenes as she's brought into the family's secrets, I just don't think she has the chops to keep up. Most of the other actors say so much with their eyes and their expressions and their body language without ever saying a word. She seemed to have exactly two facial expressions--normal and raising her eyebrows, which just always makes her look vaguely worried and confused. LOLOL

After I noticed that, I got super fixated on watching her use her eyebrows, and it is so distracting because that seems like all she knows how to do when she's called upon to emote. 

I also feel like she always just plays the text of the scene, whereas the other actors play the text and the subtext. So, when Paige is mad, she's mad (and moving them damn eyebrows) and when she's sad, she's sad (and moving them damn eyebrows) and when she's worried, she's worried (and moving them damn eyebrows).

The other actors, though, will be mad but you can also tell that they are simultaneously sad or worried or intrigued or confused or even relieved or any combination of those seemingly contradictory things all at once, so you definitely get the impression that there is more going on under the surface. 

Edited December 31, 2024 by Zella

[BlackberryJam]

@sistermagpieHeh! I got the year from The Americans wiki. I acknowledge my wrongness and bow to your superior information!! :)

RE: Holly Taylor. It is absolutely a testament to the writing and the acting of KR and MR that this show is so awesome despite how bad HT is. @sistermagpieis right, Paige spends her off screen time in a prop closet. There is nothing going on behind the words she’s saying.

@Zella We see so little of Arkady yet Lev Gorn makes him a real character. I know Arkady is busy off screen. He has a full life. 

I think Kelly AuCoin did a good job being Pastor Tim, but …the character always felt too close to a creeper. Initially, I thought Tim might be grooming Paige. I think there is a line Elizabeth says at one point to Paige about how Paster Tim and Alice love her, and I remember thinking, “Why? Why would two adults love a random teenage girl? And why charmless, annoying Paige?” It felt weird. Paige wasn’t doing anything to endear herself to those adults. At least HT wasn’t conveying that she did.

Paige got involved with the Reed Street Church based on the girl she met on the bus to Aunt Helen’s. I initially thought that girl (Kelly) was someone from the Centre, keeping an eye on Paige, and starting the recruitment process. But we never see Kelly again. 

So…the church, the protests, etc. I don’t know if there are any liberal churches anymore. At least locally, I don’t know of any. The church led protests I see are Westboro Baptist and the less said about that “church” the better. 

I do remember my middle school and high school years, things like Hands Across America, listing to the song “Sun City” even though it was hard to find, and…the song “Russians” by Sting. I know that song is sappy and a bit too on point, but I really, really wanted the show to have used it somewhere, at least the music if not the lyrics. 

As I type this, I’m recognizing that part of my love of this show is nostalgia, and my naïveté about changing the world. Ah…to be that young, innocent and hopeful again.

Hans. Imperfect but dedicated newbie, yes. I think about Paige walking down the street and doing the surveillance in S6 and was like, Hans was so much better. The US was definitely on the wrong side regarding South Africa. The show used so many great Peter Gabriel songs, but I wanted the beat of “Biko”. (Again, nostalgia.) 

[Zella]

41 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

I think Kelly AuCoin did a good job being Pastor Tim, but …the character always felt too close to a creeper.

Yes I assumed that was the route they were going. I can accept now on rewatches that he's apparently a well-intentioned but awkward person, but I felt like him taking Paige's money as a minor was really unprofessional and sketchy. I can hand-wave away most of what he does once I realize his role in the story but not that.

One of my favorite moments in the show, though, is when they're looking at the negatives of his diary and he's talking about what a horrible psychological wound they've perpetuated on their daughter. He's actually not wrong, and you can tell that makes them so mad because I think deep down they recognize he's right but they also would never admit that. 

43 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

The show used so many great Peter Gabriel songs,

I was born in 1989, and though I have always liked a lot of 70s and 80s music because I listened to it with my dad, this show introduced me to Peter Gabriel and I have become such a big fan! A few weeks ago, Magnum PI was on, and I heard a song I'd never heard before, but my head immediately snapped up and I was like "That's Peter Gabriel and I must know the song NOW!" LOLOL 

[sistermagpie]

20 hours ago, Zella said:

I really feel like the biggest problem is Holly Taylor is just simply not as good of an actress as the rest of the cast. To clarify, I don't think she is awful, but I do think she's much better in the earlier seasons when she's just the daughter with mysterious parents. I think that she is fine in that.

Exactly! I remember first time round I assume the problem was that it's probably hard to imagine what it would feel like to get this kind of a blow to your identity, so that's why she's fine in the role pre-reveal.

But on rewatch I realized that the problem starts, imo, even before that, at the start of S3. That's the moment when Paige stops being written as a child and more like a teenager. Before that, playing the surface of the scene is fine, because the text is the point.

But, for instance, in retrospect I started realizing how she ought to be making her search for the secret the subtext of practically every scene. We should feel how this can't go on forever. But instead the only time she seems to be thinking about it is when that's in the text. 

 

20 hours ago, Zella said:

But as she's asked to do more complicated scenes as she's brought into the family's secrets, I just don't think she has the chops to keep up. Most of the other actors say so much with their eyes and their expressions and their body language without ever saying a word. She seemed to have exactly two facial expressions--normal and raising her eyebrows, which just always makes her look vaguely worried and confused. LOLOL

Yes--there were a lot of times where it seemed unlikely that the other person in the scene with her wouldn't say, "OMG, what's wrong?" because she had that stricken look on her face. And yes, there are times where it's supposed to be noticeable to others, but not guilty Golden Retriever noticeable.

Like there's that whole sequence where everybody's watching The Day After and I haven't rewatched that ep yet, but I remember feeling at the time like Paige really stood out. Everybody else seemed to be doing a good job portraying their character watching this TV movie about a nuclear attack--it was interesting watching them, wondering what was going on in their head exactly. Everybody's reactions seemed to fit, including Young Hee, who's weepy because she's already established she's a crier who cries at everything in movies.

Paige, however, looked like she was trying to Act, with dramatic expressions like "This is upsetting to me" and "This movie is making me think about this happening to people in the world" and "The idea of a nuclear war is a lot scarier for me than anyone else."

20 hours ago, Zella said:

After I noticed that, I got super fixated on watching her use her eyebrows, and it is so distracting because that seems like all she knows how to do when she's called upon to emote. 

I also feel like she always just plays the text of the scene, whereas the other actors play the text and the subtext. So, when Paige is mad, she's mad (and moving them damn eyebrows) and when she's sad, she's sad (and moving them damn eyebrows) and when she's worried, she's worried (and moving them damn eyebrows).

The other actors, though, will be mad but you can also tell that they are simultaneously sad or worried or intrigued or confused or even relieved or any combination of those seemingly contradictory things all at once, so you definitely get the impression that there is more going on under the surface. 

Yes, an emotionally most of the actors create an emotion inside themselves and it comes through on their faces, and the character will try to control the emotion as the character would--like people do in real life. With Paige, if she's supposed to be sad, she tries to make herself cry by imitating crying. If she's mad she'll start speaking loud and fast. And eventually it seems like she also lands on the idea that she should indicate that there's a lot going on inside her by looking confused, doing the eyebrows and taking deep breaths, as if she's still not sure what emotion she's feeling yet and she's trying so damn hard to figure it out! 

Or a good example of the subtext missing from all of S6 is in the fight with Philip in S6. Her arrogance in that scene would play so differently if you could see it was covering up how disturbed she is at what Philip's doing/asking. 

[sistermagpie]

10 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

I think Kelly AuCoin did a good job being Pastor Tim, but …the character always felt too close to a creeper. Initially, I thought Tim might be grooming Paige. I think there is a line Elizabeth says at one point to Paige about how Paster Tim and Alice love her, and I remember thinking, “Why? Why would two adults love a random teenage girl? And why charmless, annoying Paige?” It felt weird. Paige wasn’t doing anything to endear herself to those adults. At least HT wasn’t conveying that she did.

 

 

10 hours ago, Zella said:

Yes I assumed that was the route they were going. I can accept now on rewatches that he's apparently a well-intentioned but awkward person, but I felt like him taking Paige's money as a minor was really unprofessional and sketchy. I can hand-wave away most of what he does once I realize his role in the story but not that.

 

I remember the show runners being all astonished that people thought there was something shady about Pastor Tim and I thought...dudes, you wrote the guy as taking 600.00 from a 14-year old and acting like it was an honest mistake to assume her parents knew. And then have the kid over for a sleepover with the same excuse. How can you possibly say he's not shady? That, plus all the possessiveness and pushiness--Philip can't be the only dad who's nearly punched this guy.

I didn't think they were going for sex predator, but it also seemed like he could easily wind up in bed with Paige down the line when she grew up if things went on. Just because she was such a fangirl of him and the guy's clearly got an ego. 

The one thing about it that does work is Paige being sort of parallel to Elizabeth in not realizing the difference between people who actually love you and people whose job it is to care for you. Like, institutions don't love you. When Tim and Alice say they love you, they mean you're one of many nice kids in the youth group.

That's also why I always think it's funny when people think Paige at the end is going to go to Argentina to find Pastor Tim. Not that I think she ever would, but I just imagine Alice's face at Paige showing up with a suitcase. You know she ripped Tim a new one when he came back from Africa and told him the tape story was going to stay.

[Zella]

5 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I remember the show runners being all astonished that people thought there was something shady about Pastor Tim and I thought...

LOLOL In general, I really am a fan of what the showrunners did with the show, and I do think they're very talented. I love this show for a reason. But this is just hilariously perplexing. They had a similarly bizarre take on Paige being the most soulful and Russian character. I know they meant that metaphorically, but like, more quintessentially Russian than characters played by Costa Ronin and Lev Gorn, who were both in fact born in the USSR?! 

I can believe Paige was intended that way, but I don't think she ever came across that way to anyone but them. 

Edited January 1 by Zella

[sistermagpie]

23 minutes ago, Zella said:

LOLOL In general, I really am a fan of what the showrunners did with the show, and I do think they're very talented. I love this show for a reason. But this is just hilariously perplexing. They had a similarly bizarre take on Paige being the most soulful and Russian character. I know they meant that metaphorically, but like, more quintessentially Russian than characters played by Costa Ronin and Lev Gorn, who were both in fact born in the USSR?! 

I can believe Paige was intended that way, but I don't think she ever came across that way to anyone but them. 

LOL! I remember them trying to push the whole "Russian soul" thing and I kept thinking...I don't think that expression means whatever you think it means here. She's an American girl, surrounded by Russian characters and actual Russian actors. But yeah, it's totally Paige who just noticed there's no black people in the suburb she's lived in her whole life but is going to change that through non-violent resistance and has no interest in Russia whatsoever beyond whether it might lead her to true love who's the soul of Russia. She makes every scene feel like a Chekhov play. Her voice is a balalaika.

Edited January 1 by sistermagpie

[BlackberryJam]

Paige is soulful? What? A Russian soul? Seriously. WTF? Talk about a bad take. Paige's behavior is clearly shown to be very American entitled teen. In S1, she wants more leg warmers even though she has 37 pair. She's constantly all up in her feelings when we see young Elizabeth and young Philip just trying to survive, taking care of their sick mother (Elizabeth), suffering beatings and bullying (Philip) and both with serious food insecurity. And Paige thinks her life is the worst ever. 

I mean, I absolutely agree that Elizabeth and Philip are psychologically damaging their children. The lies, the fakeness of their marriage, the parentification of Paige, and the fact that they are never there. So much bad parenting. But, we hear from Reuben in Divestment about how he beats his children. There are different standards and expectations for parenting around the world and it's always evolving. Paige's expectations of parenting from Philip and Elizabeth are completely and utterly American. 

I am glad I wasn't participating in fandom back then and hearing that nonsense.

 

On 1/1/2025 at 12:30 AM, sistermagpie said:

 

I remember the show runners being all astonished that people thought there was something shady about Pastor Tim and I thought...dudes, you wrote the guy as taking 600.00 from a 14-year old and acting like it was an honest mistake to assume her parents knew. And then have the kid over for a sleepover with the same excuse. How can you possibly say he's not shady? That, plus all the possessiveness and pushiness--Philip can't be the only dad who's nearly punched this guy.

I didn't think they were going for sex predator, but it also seemed like he could easily wind up in bed with Paige down the line when she grew up if things went on. Just because she was such a fangirl of him and the guy's clearly got an ego. 

The one thing about it that does work is Paige being sort of parallel to Elizabeth in not realizing the difference between people who actually love you and people whose job it is to care for you. Like, institutions don't love you. When Tim and Alice say they love you, they mean you're one of many nice kids in the youth group.

That's also why I always think it's funny when people think Paige at the end is going to go to Argentina to find Pastor Tim. Not that I think she ever would, but I just imagine Alice's face at Paige showing up with a suitcase. You know she ripped Tim a new one when he came back from Africa and told him the tape story was going to stay.

How could the showrunners NOT think people would get a creeper vibe from the relationship of an adult male and a teen girl? I mean, come on. They have Philip scrambling and doing everything he can to not have sex with Kimmy because the relationship between an adult male and a teen girl is weird and skeevy. [I'm thinking about Millie Bobby Brown and Drake right now.]

There is a scene in the Ethiopia episode where Paige goes to the church and meets with Alice. She and Alice hug as Paige is clearly upset. Alice ends up breaking down and crying Paige's arms and the look on Paige's face is like, "WTF, WHY IS SHE EXPECTING ME TO COMFORT HER, I'M JUST A CONFUSED TEEN AND IT SHOULD ALL BE ABOUT ME!"

I'm not sure Alice, at the time they left, saw Paige as any sort of rival for Tim's affections, but college-age sexually-active Paige would certainly be different. 

@ZellaNow all I can see in Paige's face is her eyebrows!!! 

I have watched some Keri Russell and Matthew Rhys interviews from back in the day. I love his accent and I love the way they interact. So much amazing on-screen chemistry that did not fall off when they became a real life couple. 

[Zella]

10 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

Now all I can see in Paige's face is her eyebrows!!! 

I'm sorry! It is all I can see now too. I actually think she's very pretty. But, girl, calm down those brows. 

[sistermagpie]

On 1/3/2025 at 10:32 AM, BlackberryJam said:

I mean, I absolutely agree that Elizabeth and Philip are psychologically damaging their children. The lies, the fakeness of their marriage, the parentification of Paige, and the fact that they are never there. So much bad parenting. But, we hear from Reuben in Divestment about how he beats his children. There are different standards and expectations for parenting around the world and it's always evolving. Paige's expectations of parenting from Philip and Elizabeth are completely and utterly American. 

I actually don't even think she's parentified at all. (The rest--definitely, they are damaging her.) Not any more than any older sister teenager in the 80s. She's got no adult responsibilities when we meet her. When she gets old enough to babysit and her parents aren't home she's in charge so might make dinner, but that wasn't unusual. 

It's just that to me she seems to be trying to parentify herself through the series to have someone to pull rank on, but Henry never relates to her as a caretaker or someone he relies on at all.

Of course, she does get a massive adult responsiblity dumped on her when she's still a kid when her parents tell her their secret--but she's completely unprepared for it. (Not that anyone could be totally prepared for that.) Henry's actually more adult-ready than Paige was at the same age, imo.

I remember there's a scene where Gabriel tells Elizabeth she's done a good job with Paige because she doesn't think life owes her happiness or something like that and I thought....have you met Paige? Not that she always expects happiness, but she absolutely thinks it's unjust that she has this stuff to deal with. If she could speak to a manager about it, she would. This seems even underlined when she asks Philip if he liked his hometown and he smiles, amused, and says they didn't think like that. Paige the middle class American naturally spends time thinking about how she'd rather things were. 

 

On 1/3/2025 at 10:32 AM, BlackberryJam said:

I'm not sure Alice, at the time they left, saw Paige as any sort of rival for Tim's affections, but college-age sexually-active Paige would certainly be different. 

Yeah, and the way Tim's characterized he would totally be able to justify getting with Paige when she was older. He's not a predator, but there's a lot in his characterization, imo, that suggests his morals haven't been tested.

 

On 1/3/2025 at 8:55 PM, Zella said:

I'm sorry! It is all I can see now too. I actually think she's very pretty. But, girl, calm down those brows. 

I remember someone once getting defensive over them, as if people were saying she was funny looking. But it's not about looks at all, it's an acting issue.

Edited January 5 by sistermagpie