White Collar - General Discussion

[Aethera]

This topic replaces the old White Collar forum which has been vaulted at the location below:

http://forums.previously.tv/forum/248-white-collar-v/

[andromeda331]

White Collar is airing on Sundays on IONL aka ION Life or Lifestyle.

Watching Vital Signs I love that Elizabeth isn't upset at all to learn Peter was flirting with a woman for the case. I know in the first talk at night Peter worries she's upset but she just starts laughing. The next morning its her idea to call the woman to get her to invite Peter to the hospital so he can find Neal. She gets surprised about magic hands and later suggests he uses those magic hands to dishes but never gets up set. She even helps him during the call. After watching so many shows have the spouse/girlfriend/boyfriend flipping out or jealous. Its really nice to watch one that doesn't. 

[tessaray]

Elizabeth is a great character.  The Mozzie/El friendship was one of the best things on the show.

My husband and I are up to S4 in our annual rewatch.  The episode last night was Family Business, the whiskey counterfeiting one with Scott Evans.

[andromeda331]

19 hours ago, tessaray said:

Elizabeth is a great character.  The Mozzie/El friendship was one of the best things on the show.

My husband and I are up to S4 in our annual rewatch.  The episode last night was Family Business, the whiskey counterfeiting one with Scott Evans.

She really is. I agree her and Mozzie's friendship was one of the best things about the show.  I like in the episode where his waitress crush is kidnapped and Elizabeth already knew about her. Mozzie told her about Gina awhile back when he hadn't even told Neal. 

I'm glad its back on TV it used to be on Netflix but they took it off and I can't find my White Collar DVDs so I couldn't get my fix. I've really missed the show.

[tessaray]

7 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

I'm glad its back on TV it used to be on Netflix but they took it off and I can't find my White Collar DVDs so I couldn't get my fix. I've really missed the show.

That's happened with several of my other shows in the last few years.  I stream them on Netflix, they disappear and then show up in local syndication.  I bought the dvds shortly after it went off Netflix.    

I forget the episode title from last night but it was one of the rare times I didn't like Elizabeth, when she tells Neal to lie to Peter's face (and do anything he had to, to keep Peter safe) when he doesn't want to. I know they always need something to keep the conflict going but it isn't one of my favorite plot points.  

[andromeda331]

1 hour ago, tessaray said:

That's happened with several of my other shows in the last few years.  I stream them on Netflix, they disappear and then show up in local syndication.  I bought the dvds shortly after it went off Netflix.    

I forget the episode title from last night but it was one of the rare times I didn't like Elizabeth, when she tells Neal to lie to Peter's face (and do anything he had to, to keep Peter safe) when he doesn't want to. I know they always need something to keep the conflict going but it isn't one of my favorite plot points.  

Season four episode Brass Tracks. I didn't like that one either. Neal clearly didn't want too and he really shouldn't have. Elizabeth never should have asked him to lie.

[andromeda331]

Made it through the entire series on IONlife. I think the early seasons are the best. The first three seasons. There are good episodes from four and on. I think the problem is they didn't know where they were going from season four and on. The first three it didn't really matter. They had four years due to the deal. So they could relax and build up the bonds. Neal talked on and off different ideas when it was free. Starting over, going back to school, and consulting with Peter. But they didn't have to commit to anything. Season four came and they didn't know what to do, or what direction to pick or what Neal really wanted or how to continue the show with Neal and Peter still working together. Or they couldn't decide. I don't know. They could have gone with Neal free and not sure what do for a few episodes then returning to consult with the FBI. Or continuing to consult and getting paid while he explored different things now that he was free. Or they could have gone Neal committing a crime and getting four more years to continue the show. They also never seemed able to move Peter and Neal's relationship past the cycle of hiding secrets, crimes and Peter getting mad. The first couple seasons it made sense. But by season four after everything they've been through. They should have been passed that. 

[swanpride]

To this day I am angry that they didn't go with the other ending they had considered. In this one, Neal was free and was throwing a coin to decide if he should go straight or not, and then the show would have ended before the coin had fallen. It would have been perfect.

[tessaray]

I would have liked that ending. The last episode is fine and due to the Panthers revenge threat it makes sense but Mozzie's grief is always hard to watch.  Peter and Elizabeth had each other and the baby but it had to have been a hard, lonely year for Mozz. 

[swanpride]

I didn't like it. I felt that Neal deserved to be truly free after all what happened, and playing dead isn't really freedom. Plus, I didn't really like the last season in general. I mean, it started so great with the kidnapping and then it was solved in one episode. The last heist was great, though.

[andromeda331]

14 hours ago, swanpride said:

I didn't like it. I felt that Neal deserved to be truly free after all what happened, and playing dead isn't really freedom. Plus, I didn't really like the last season in general. I mean, it started so great with the kidnapping and then it was solved in one episode. The last heist was great, though.

So do I. I really wanted and felt Neal deserved to be free after all the work he's done. Playing dead isn't free. Yeah, he's the best but he still has to hope to never be recognized again which is a long shot. Its really about the same as he reason for not getting on plane at the end of season one. That it still wasn't freedom. He was still running.  Or why he didn't leave when Mozzie wanted to in season three because of the life he had in New York City. I hate that we never got to see what decision Neal made.  

[swanpride]

I mean, it would have been fine with the coin toss and leaving it open. But Neal effectively running again, just to have a cheap "Peter thinks he died moment" I didn't buy anyway...yeah, terrible decision.

[andromeda331]

1 hour ago, swanpride said:

I mean, it would have been fine with the coin toss and leaving it open. But Neal effectively running again, just to have a cheap "Peter thinks he died moment" I didn't buy anyway...yeah, terrible decision.

I would have been fine with that too. It would have been a good way to end it leaving us guessing or deciding for ourselves whether he went straight or not. It would fit too given how often he went back and forth. I just can't see him doing that to Mozzie, Peter, Elizabeth and June or that he would ever chose it. He wanted to be free.  

What did you guys think of Sara? I always go back and forth on her. On one hand I like seeing Neal getting involved with someone and I do like her character in general but I can never really decide if she's rebound from Kate or not. He just seemed to move on to an actual relationship pretty fast after Kate's death. 

Edited June 15, 2019 by andromeda331

[swanpride]

Back when the show first aired I positively hated Sara. She felt like she was shoehorned into the plot more often than not. Alex always worked when she turned up, with Sara I was always wondering why she was even there. I have softened a little bit towards the character since then, but frankly, the episodes with her are among my least favourite by far. I liked Neal with literally every single other female character in the show better, and there were quite a few.

[auntiemel]

In my mind, there's something that happens later that allows Neal to come back--along the lines of how Sherlock got back into the US, Patrick got roped back in after Red John, etc. I just want to be able to picture them all still having adventures.

I do think the finale is emotionally powerful. It's just not how I want to picture the characters' futures, so I do a little mental fanfic.

I feel terrible for both Peter and Mozzie after Neal's "death" but the one I find myself thinking about most often is June. 😪

Edited June 20, 2019 by auntiemel
now->not

[andromeda331]

What are your favorite Mozzie quotes and lines?

Three of my favorites are "I like the idea of stars" When he's pretending to be a blind man at the planetarium. 

"Think of it as a Kardashian. What it lacks in refinement, it makes up for in cargo space." 
"Great I brought a corkscrew to a gunfight."
 "The Sparrow dies at midnight" With Neal answering I'd hate to be that sparrow." And after poor Alex is saying the stupid code "I saw a mockingbird in the park." Mozzie comes up telling
her "The bird died." 
"Oh, Sweet Elvis Costello, it's your Chrysler painting"

Edited July 11, 2019 by andromeda331

[swanpride]

Peter Burke: "Where did you come from? " Mozzie: "Forty-five years ago an enigma gave a paradox a very special hug."

[andromeda331]

On 7/11/2019 at 4:40 AM, swanpride said:

Peter Burke: "Where did you come from? " Mozzie: "Forty-five years ago an enigma gave a paradox a very special hug."

That was a good one. Mozzie was a really good character. He was so funny and crazy with all his conspiracy theories. But also a really good friend. I love watching him helping from or like in the early episode hitting the bad guy with his car and telling Peter he wasn't there and left. When the guy ran out with a gun Mozzie doesn't break a sweat just annoyed that he didn't need that today before hitting him.  Or him panicking when he's trying to get information from the woman asking for a donation to help June's granddaughter while watching Neal breaks into her car and sees the police show up. Showing he actually does care about Peter when he shows up to meet Neal and brought an entire bag of hammers not just one and going to sit with Elizabeth even though the suits are there. Showing up on "Date Night" with Elizabeth.  Coming back when Elizabeth's kidnapped and apologizing to Peter and admitting that he did care for Elizabeth and Peter, Being so cool with Gina's kidnappers and then realizing the flaw in the "Perfect Exchange". I love all of his stories. The various cons. And given up everything all his money and his name when Diana goes into labor and he stays and helps. Helping Evan get the girl.  Calling Peter when he realizes Neal is going to kill Fowler. I love that Vulture thought Mozzie was the cute one and the two hook up. 

Edited July 14, 2019 by andromeda331

[swanpride]

It was too bad that Vulture didn't turn up again.

Also loved the "Dentist of Detroit" episode. Though my favourite overall is still the episode in which they take down the politician. It has EVERYTHING!!! Neal manipulating the whole city into building a children's park (and even Mozzie falling for it), some backstory for Diana, Peter and Mozzie "hunting" for the money Neal need in the warehouse...though I guess in hindsight the corruption shown in the episode is kind of cute now.

[andromeda331]

21 hours ago, swanpride said:

It was too bad that Vulture didn't turn up again.

Also loved the "Dentist of Detroit" episode. Though my favourite overall is still the episode in which they take down the politician. It has EVERYTHING!!! Neal manipulating the whole city into building a children's park (and even Mozzie falling for it), some backstory for Diana, Peter and Mozzie "hunting" for the money Neal need in the warehouse...though I guess in hindsight the corruption shown in the episode is kind of cute now.

I had hoped she would sometime at later in season three after they don't leave town or in season four when Mozzie and Neal come back to New York. I love that politician episode too! Its another great episode. Neal manipulating everything for that park was awesome. Starting as his interview which got him the job. I love how confused everyone was by it from Jennings staff to the FBI. Him immediately making up the lie that Diana was a prostitute. Mozzie falling for the con and even writing a letter and hoping they were helping to bring down the guy running against Jennings. Peter wondering why everyone was wearing armbands and learning it was Save the Park day. Peter and Mozzie during the whole scavenger hunt. Elle calling as Peter was logging onto the escort service website and Peter insisting it wasn't what she thought it was. Diana and Neal in the hotel room and learning Diana's backstory. How calm she is when she goes into the hotel room and sees the guy with the gun. She doesn't freak out or anything and putting a bullet in his shoulder after she warned him and teasing Peter for being worried about her. 

[swanpride]

That is something I really loved about Diana....you never had the feeling that she couldn't handle a dangerous situation. I went into more detail here:

https://swanpride.wordpress.com/2014/10/11/honoring-the-heroine-diana-barrigan/comment-page-1/

But she is easily one of my favourite characters on television. Along with Neal, Mozzie, Peter and El, naturally.

[andromeda331]

1 hour ago, swanpride said:

That is something I really loved about Diana....you never had the feeling that she couldn't handle a dangerous situation. I went into more detail here:

https://swanpride.wordpress.com/2014/10/11/honoring-the-heroine-diana-barrigan/comment-page-1/

But she is easily one of my favourite characters on television. Along with Neal, Mozzie, Peter and El, naturally.

No, you never did. Even when she's in the hotel room with Barro and everyone's racing to the room. Not one worry that she couldn't handle it and that she wouldn't but a bullet in his shoulder if he made a move.

I loved your honoring the heroine Diana. It was spot on. She's one of my favorite characters too. She's awesome in that she can completely handle any situation that comes her way and very smart. I love when Peter takes her as his muscle and weapons expert. Her answer when Neal asks what she was going to do if he hadn't come in pretending to look for a hooker is awesome. I almost wish we got to see her take the guy up to the room and put a gun between his ribs. Or her first remark to Helen after saving her life was announcing her name and FBI and damn right she's overqualified. 

White Collar did such a good job of making good smart and strong women characters in addition to their strong male characters. Diana is awesome and they never once treat her as incompetent or less because she's a woman. The only time Peter worries is after she has her son and that's more of worrying about leaving her son without a mother. Even in that case they handled her pregnancy well. Its one of the few shoes where writing in her pregnancy felt natural. I love Mossie calling her "Badass Barrigan". Peter trusting Diana with the music box and his back up at the meeting sight in the second season. Calling her for help at the end of season one. I loved hearing about her background in Need to Know or how she met Christie in another episode. The idea of Diana in pottery class is kind of awesome.  Or when she accidently opened up to the mark when she was undercover. She's just so awesome. I'm really disappointed we didn't get to see Neal throwing Diana's bachelor party it would have been awesome. 

I really love how they handle her being a lesbian. That's just part of her but not her whole identity. She talks about Christie like any normal spouse/partner and is asked about Christie the same way. Like Peter asking how Christie's adjusting to being back in the city or Neal suggested to Christie and Diana they get together for dinner. Its just so natural.  

Edited July 15, 2019 by andromeda331

[swanpride]

I even forgave the birthing is a sewer scene, even though it was a little bit foolish of her to not be a little bit more careful that late in her pregnancy. But Mozzie doting over her baby was so cute.

[andromeda331]

8 hours ago, swanpride said:

I even forgave the birthing is a sewer scene, even though it was a little bit foolish of her to not be a little bit more careful that late in her pregnancy. But Mozzie doting over her baby was so cute.

So did I. It was a little foolish but didn't really seem out of character. She was worrying that she was being benched by Peter and wanted to prove to him and herself she could still do the job. Mozzie doting was so cute and his "I'm a Dad" comment which Diana quickly corrects says no and he switches to "I'm a midwife" He was just so excited. I do love that she named her son after him. I love Mozzie had to decide whether to bolt which wasn't exactly wrong since he was going to lose all his money and stuff and his actual real identity. But stays to help Diana.  

[andromeda331]

So in season 4 episode In the Wind was everyone speaking for the audience when Mozzie, Peter and Neal's dad asked who called Sara as each one arrived? 

[TheLovelyAnomaly]

Howdy everyone! 

I just finished watching White Collar on Hulu (I'm way tardy to the party, I know, haha) and loved it! I didn't think it would be my cup of tea since I'm not a police procedural fan and white collar crime doesn't particularly interest me, but this show is so much more than your run-of-the-mill crime drama. The characters and their relationships were the focus, and they were brilliant. (Matt and Tim have excellent chemistry and are both great actors. They so need to do something else together!) The story arcs were engaging and, unlike a lot of other cop-centered shows, it never "jumped the shark" or got tiresome. It was intelligent, fun, humorous, and even moving. I'm so glad I checked it out! 🙂

Edited August 19, 2019 by TheLovelyAnomaly

[swanpride]

It's still one of my favourite shows...and so rewatchable!

[andromeda331]

Its still one of my favorite shows too. I was glad when IonLife channel started airing it. I love all of the main characters Neal, Peter, Elizabeth, Diana, Mozzie and Jones so much. And of course June. Even Hughes and Bancroft (who was only in one episode in Prisoner's Dilemma). 

What do you think about Neal's dad? Did you like that storyline or were disappointed in the storyline or wish he was played by another actor? Before we learned anything about Neal's parents did you have any ideas on what either one would be like? We learned his dad was a cop in season two but nothing until season four. 

[CheshireCat]

2 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

Its still one of my favorite shows too. I was glad when IonLife channel started airing it. I love all of the main characters Neal, Peter, Elizabeth, Diana, Mozzie and Jones so much. And of course June. Even Hughes and Bancroft (who was only in one episode in Prisoner's Dilemma).

Same. It was such a great cast and I loved the entire concept of the show! I wasn't wild about S6 or the Rebecca story in S5 (although, it was interesting that they made her a redhead and not a brunette) but other than that, it was an excellent show. The only thing that I wish they would have done is send Neal to London instead of Paris because Sara had moved to London and that proposal was as it could be. I really liked them together and the influence they had on each other and I think he would have deserved to be with her again.

[swanpride]

Rebecca's story was what turned the show around for me again. The last season ruined it.

I mostly disliked the Sara episodes. And I didn't want Neal to move anywhere. I want him to be free damnit.

I tend to pretend that the show ended with Neal getting kidnapped.

[tessaray]

I liked Sara and how she fit into the stories (mostly) but I never 100% bought into her feelings for Neal - at least not that they were deep enough to reconcile her honesty with his past. If they had gotten together, I can't see her ever trusting him completely or that they could be happy without that trust. (I do think she wished she could.)

I think Alex had the most potential. I would have liked to see her change like Neal did. 

[swanpride]

Honestly, I liked every single one of Neals girlfriends - Alex, the girl on the island, the widow, Rebecca before she turned into Rachel - except Sara. Partly because most of the time she turned up it happened so that they could do the kind of cliche story beats I hate, like the love triangle.

[TheLovelyAnomaly]

On 8/20/2019 at 10:43 PM, andromeda331 said:

What do you think about Neal's dad? Did you like that storyline or were disappointed in the storyline or wish he was played by another actor? Before we learned anything about Neal's parents did you have any ideas on what either one would be like? We learned his dad was a cop in season two but nothing until season four. 

The storyline of Neal's dad threw me for a loop, honestly. I thought he was innocent of the cop-killing charge, not because I trusted him but because I trusted Ellen. I remember her saying something like, "Your father was many things, Neal, but he wasn't a killer." I took him as a deeply flawed person with a lot of regrets (he was a dirty cop, after all) who, underneath it all, wanted to do the right thing. How wrong I was, haha!  

I didn't have any specific thoughts about what happened with Neal's parents, but I did kind of wonder if his dad was some sort of authority figure (like a judge or a town mayor) who either physically or emotionally neglected Neal. I felt it'd make sense given Neal's attachment issues and resentment towards people in charge. :)     

[andromeda331]

On 8/25/2019 at 11:07 PM, TheLovelyAnomaly said:

The storyline of Neal's dad threw me for a loop, honestly. I thought he was innocent of the cop-killing charge, not because I trusted him but because I trusted Ellen. I remember her saying something like, "Your father was many things, Neal, but he wasn't a killer." I took him as a deeply flawed person with a lot of regrets (he was a dirty cop, after all) who, underneath it all, wanted to do the right thing. How wrong I was, haha!  

I didn't have any specific thoughts about what happened with Neal's parents, but I did kind of wonder if his dad was some sort of authority figure (like a judge or a town mayor) who either physically or emotionally neglected Neal. I felt it'd make sense given Neal's attachment issues and resentment towards people in charge. 🙂     

That threw me too. They built it up so much that James was in framed. That he didn't kill anyone and went to jail for a crime he didn't commit. With Ellen of all people insisting he wasn't a killer only for it to turn out he was. I guess Neal was more right then he even though when he told Peter back in season two about his mom telling him his dad was hero that she was just telling him what any kid wanted to hear. I guess its hard to tell a kid his father really is a murderer.  

When Neal told Peter his father was a cop I really thought he was lying. Until he talked to Mozzie. Having his father being some kind of authority made sense. That Neal rebelled against or maybe he was too hard on Neal or distant and not really in his life or that Neal was broke away from him but he didn't put up much of a fight from what he said to the dad in the Burma episode to Chris's dad after the dad explained why he was estranged from his son that thirteen year old doesn't know what he needs that he should have tried harder. I'm not sure it really matches up with what we later find out James was in jail and they were all in Witness Protection and Neal hadn't seen his father since he was three. 

[andromeda331]

On 8/20/2019 at 8:54 PM, CheshireCat said:

Same. It was such a great cast and I loved the entire concept of the show! I wasn't wild about S6 or the Rebecca story in S5 (although, it was interesting that they made her a redhead and not a brunette) but other than that, it was an excellent show. The only thing that I wish they would have done is send Neal to London instead of Paris because Sara had moved to London and that proposal was as it could be. I really liked them together and the influence they had on each other and I think he would have deserved to be with her again.

On 8/20/2019 at 11:46 PM, swanpride said:

Rebecca's story was what turned the show around for me again. The last season ruined it.

I mostly disliked the Sara episodes. And I didn't want Neal to move anywhere. I want him to be free damnit.

I tend to pretend that the show ended with Neal getting kidnapped.

On 8/21/2019 at 12:07 AM, tessaray said:

I liked Sara and how she fit into the stories (mostly) but I never 100% bought into her feelings for Neal - at least not that they were deep enough to reconcile her honesty with his past. If they had gotten together, I can't see her ever trusting him completely or that they could be happy without that trust. (I do think she wished she could.)

I think Alex had the most potential. I would have liked to see her change like Neal did. 

On 8/21/2019 at 12:50 AM, swanpride said:

Honestly, I liked every single one of Neals girlfriends - Alex, the girl on the island, the widow, Rebecca before she turned into Rachel - except Sara. Partly because most of the time she turned up it happened so that they could do the kind of cliche story beats I hate, like the love triangle.

I liked Sara in the beginning, but she always seemed like rebound and nothing serious even when they kept trying to push them together. She didn't seem like someone who would want to be with someone like Neal for very long with her retrieving stolen stuff and I got bored with them after a couple episodes. I liked the widow and it would have be nice to see that last for awhile, I liked Rebecca before she became Rachel afterwards it was too crazy to believe she really loved Neal despite all of her crimes, setting him up, poisoning Mozzie etc. Alex was the one I really liked the most. The two really seemed to understand each other and know each other really well. We never really saw that with any other woman. If I had to pick the worse it would have to be Kate. Because that story never made any sense. The time they were together never made any sense or fit. We were told this romantic story, and time together like the two conning their way into an expensive hotel and ordering the 1000 burgers. Both Peter and Mozzie doubted Kate's love for Neal which they never answered whether or not she was conning him. Also they showed everyone else sneaking in and out his place but Kate somehow never was able to? The flashback showing out they met and got together made zero sense, they had zero chemistry and went against all the stories we heard before then. 

[swanpride]

I didn't mind Kate exactly because everyone kept doubting that what Neal saw was actual all that real. Him romanticising the relationship was very Neal. With Sara, pretty much everyone was a shipper on deck, even June gave her the stamp of approval. And I never got why, considering that Neal was really playing with fire there.

[auntiemel]

I could envision a future where Neal was the Michael Westen of the group, Sara was the Fiona, Mozzie was the Sam, and they went around solving people's unsolvable problems while semi in hiding. Maybe Peter would be the Michael's Mom in that scenario, getting reluctantly sucked in intermittently and also reluctantly keeping their secrets. 😂

[TheLovelyAnomaly]

On 8/27/2019 at 4:47 AM, andromeda331 said:

That threw me too. They built it up so much that James was in framed. That he didn't kill anyone and went to jail for a crime he didn't commit. With Ellen of all people insisting he wasn't a killer only for it to turn out he was. I guess Neal was more right then he even though when he told Peter back in season two about his mom telling him his dad was hero that she was just telling him what any kid wanted to hear. I guess its hard to tell a kid his father really is a murderer.  

When Neal told Peter his father was a cop I really thought he was lying. Until he talked to Mozzie. Having his father being some kind of authority made sense. That Neal rebelled against or maybe he was too hard on Neal or distant and not really in his life or that Neal was broke away from him but he didn't put up much of a fight from what he said to the dad in the Burma episode to Chris's dad after the dad explained why he was estranged from his son that thirteen year old doesn't know what he needs that he should have tried harder. I'm not sure it really matches up with what we later find out James was in jail and they were all in Witness Protection and Neal hadn't seen his father since he was three. 

Exactly, they built it up only to tear it down at the last second. The reveal that James was a killer felt very spontaneous to me--as though the writers themselves were not sure whether to make him guilty or innocent, and finally just decided on a whim to make him guilty. I didn't necessarily have a problem with him being guilty, I just would have preferred it if they'd made his guilt/innocence more ambiguous rather than alluding so strongly to his innocence only to be like "gotcha!" later. 

The Burma episode really cemented my suspicion that Neal was neglected in some way as a child--those cutting remarks he made obviously came from a personal place--which led to my confusion when the details of Neal's early life were presented. My guess is that, after having idolized his father, once Neal learned the truth about what kind of man his father really was, he was devastated and ashamed. He wasn't the son of a hero after all but the son of a murderer, and how dare his idealization be shattered! He didn't lose his father by an act of heroism, he lost his father because his father had, by choice, committed a horrible crime--a crime that had turned his life upside down. I can picture little Neal thinking something along the lines of, "How could he do something that would take him away from me? I needed him! Didn't he even think of me when he did that?" It was revealed in the show that Neal blames who he is on his father; he tells Peter at one point, "If I'm not my father's son, who am I?" I take that to mean he feels that had his father been a better person--had his father "tried harder," been stronger, smarter, etc.--he may have chosen another path in life. That's what makes the most sense to me anyway. 🙂            

Edited August 31, 2019 by TheLovelyAnomaly

[andromeda331]

46 minutes ago, TheLovelyAnomaly said:

Exactly, they built it up only to tear it down at the last second. The reveal that James was a killer felt very spontaneous to me--as though the writers themselves were not sure whether to make him guilty or innocent, and finally just decided on a whim to make him guilty. I didn't necessarily have a problem with him being guilty, I just would have preferred it if they'd made his guilt/innocence more ambiguous rather than alluding so strongly to his innocence only to be like "gotcha!" later. 

The Burma episode really cemented my suspicion that Neal was neglected in some way as a child--those cutting remarks he made obviously came from a personal place--which led to my confusion when the details of Neal's early life were presented. My guess is that, after having idolized his father, once Neal learned the truth about what kind of man his father really was, he was devastated and ashamed. He wasn't the son of a hero after all but the son of a murderer, and how dare his idealization be shattered! He didn't lose his father by an act of heroism, he lost his father because his father had, by choice, committed a horrible crime--a crime that had turned his life upside down. I can picture little Neal thinking something along the lines of, "How could he do something that would take him away from me? I needed him! Didn't he even think of me when he did that?" It was revealed in the show that Neal blames who he is on his father; he tells Peter at one point, "If I'm not my father's son, who am I?" I take that to mean he feels that had his father been a better person--had his father "tried harder," been stronger, smarter, etc.--he may have chosen another path in life. That's what makes the most sense to me anyway. 🙂            

I can see Neal thinking that. Neglect made a lot of sense after the Burma episode. He definitely sounded angry at his father as if he didn't pay him attention or was too busy for him or something while Neal did stuff to try and get his attention eventually turning to stealing. So many of his crimes especially the big and flashy ones seemed like a way to get the attention of someone. He pulled many of his big stuff to get Kate's attention. Its possible before then it was to get his dad's attention. But it didn't really work. Had they not said that Neal didn't know anything about his father I would have also guessed maybe that started after he learned his father was a criminal or if he had been older then three when his father was arrested. Like a kid or pre-teen who until that moment was a good kid and wanted to be just like his cop father until the arrested and learned his father was a dirty cop. Have that break or devastate him and he goes criminal or doesn't know what do but goes criminal because his dad did. Maybe Sam wrote Neal from prison but Neal kept sending them back and he gave up. Which would make the remark Neal to Chris's dad about 'you keep trying, you don't give up. He's thirteen he doesn't know what he needs' complete sense. It sounded like either his dad didn't try or maybe tried but gave up.

[swanpride]

I always thought that it was his mother who neglected him above all. Though his father most likely did too before he got arrested.

Anyway, I didn't really mind the revelation that he really was a killer after all, because that meant he conned Ellen, which in turn must have really thrown Neal off. I just wish that the revelation had happened one or two episodes earlier, so that the show could deal with the fall-out more.

[andromeda331]

On 8/31/2019 at 12:00 AM, swanpride said:

I always thought that it was his mother who neglected him above all. Though his father most likely did too before he got arrested.

Anyway, I didn't really mind the revelation that he really was a killer after all, because that meant he conned Ellen, which in turn must have really thrown Neal off. I just wish that the revelation had happened one or two episodes earlier, so that the show could deal with the fall-out more.

I wish they had dealt with the fall out even more too. It was a really good twist. For Neal to learn his father really was a murderer and he would leave Peter to take the fall for a murder James committed.   

[TheLovelyAnomaly]

On 8/27/2019 at 4:57 AM, andromeda331 said:

I liked Sara in the beginning, but she always seemed like rebound and nothing serious even when they kept trying to push them together. She didn't seem like someone who would want to be with someone like Neal for very long with her retrieving stolen stuff and I got bored with them after a couple episodes. I liked the widow and it would have be nice to see that last for awhile, I liked Rebecca before she became Rachel afterwards it was too crazy to believe she really loved Neal despite all of her crimes, setting him up, poisoning Mozzie etc. Alex was the one I really liked the most. The two really seemed to understand each other and know each other really well. We never really saw that with any other woman. If I had to pick the worse it would have to be Kate. Because that story never made any sense. The time they were together never made any sense or fit. We were told this romantic story, and time together like the two conning their way into an expensive hotel and ordering the 1000 burgers. Both Peter and Mozzie doubted Kate's love for Neal which they never answered whether or not she was conning him. Also they showed everyone else sneaking in and out his place but Kate somehow never was able to? The flashback showing out they met and got together made zero sense, they had zero chemistry and went against all the stories we heard before then. 

I couldn't agree with you more. Never once did I buy the relationship between Neal and Kate--not on Kate's end, anyway. Maybe it was the way the actress played the character, but her behavior towards him always lacked a sense of sincerity. We were never told, for sure, whether she really loved him or was just conning him, but even so I was never able to believe in her affections for him--not fully. There were moments when I thought "eh, she probably cares about him somewhat," but those moments were fleeting, lol. And in any case, I'd definitely say his love for her far surpassed any she might have had for him. 

As for Neal's relationship with Sarah, personally I didn't put much stock in it either. I didn't dislike Sarah but I don't think she would have made Neal happy for very long, or vice versa. They were just too different, and I don't believe either would have changed for the other. Their relationship wasn't deep enough for that. It was the old "opposites attract" trope--fun and exciting, but not very logical.  

Alex's relationship with Neal felt the most natural, and seemed to be the only one grounded in understanding. They also had great chemistry, which is a plus. :)   

[andromeda331]

4 hours ago, TheLovelyAnomaly said:

I couldn't agree with you more. Never once did I buy the relationship between Neal and Kate--not on Kate's end, anyway. Maybe it was the way the actress played the character, but her behavior towards him always lacked a sense of sincerity. We were never told, for sure, whether she really loved him or was just conning him, but even so I was never able to believe in her affections for him--not fully. There were moments when I thought "eh, she probably cares about him somewhat," but those moments were fleeting, lol. And in any case, I'd definitely say his love for her far surpassed any she might have had for him. 

 I didn't either. At least on Kate's end. She never really seemed in love with Neal. Maybe she loved him but I'm not sure. It might have been the actress but also what we saw. We never did get the confirmation that she was conning him or not. Peter was suspicious of her which was typical of Peter but that Mozzie was also suspicious and he knew Kate and Neal and had been around them longer. In the first or second episode we find out Kate went to where she thought Neal hid everything Mozzie points out Neal told Mozzie and Kate two false locations to see who he could trust. Kate proved she couldn't be trusted. From the phone call and the flash back to the flash back when Kate and Peter talk she never really does seem sincere or care about Neal. 

Quote

As for Neal's relationship with Sarah, personally I didn't put much stock in it either. I didn't dislike Sarah but I don't think she would have made Neal happy for very long, or vice versa. They were just too different, and I don't believe either would have changed for the other. Their relationship wasn't deep enough for that. It was the old "opposites attract" trope--fun and exciting, but not very logical.  

Alex's relationship with Neal felt the most natural, and seemed to be the only one grounded in understanding. They also had great chemistry, which is a plus. 🙂  

Alex's really was the best. Yes, they were so natural together. We never really saw that with anyone else Neal dated. They had great chemistry. Alex knew all or most of his tricks and vica versa. When ever they talked about their shared history it came of so much more natural then anything with Kate. Alex usually could tell right of the bat when he was trying to con her. 

[swanpride]

Yeah, she was my favourite too.

[CheshireCat]

On 8/21/2019 at 2:07 AM, tessaray said:

I liked Sara and how she fit into the stories (mostly) but I never 100% bought into her feelings for Neal - at least not that they were deep enough to reconcile her honesty with his past. If they had gotten together, I can't see her ever trusting him completely or that they could be happy without that trust. (I do think she wished she could.)

I think Alex had the most potential. I would have liked to see her change like Neal did. 

I actually feel about Alex the way you feel about Sara. I don't think she could have ever trusted Neal completely and vice-versa. When they saw each other, one of them always had an angle and/or wanted something from the other. They never met just to be with each other. The show is currently keeping me company while I make decorations for a cake and like Mozzie said, Neal and Alex were convenient.

As far as Sara is concerned, I think, the time would have come when she would have had to choose between her head and her heart. She seemed to have genuine feelings for him, she just also knew who he was and she needed to deal with. If the relationship had gone on, she probably would have had to decide if she's willing to accept and live with that or not.

I think she was intrigued/attracted by who he was. Could it have worked out? I don't know. But I liked them, so I like to believe it could have.

18 hours ago, TheLovelyAnomaly said:

I couldn't agree with you more. Never once did I buy the relationship between Neal and Kate--not on Kate's end, anyway. Maybe it was the way the actress played the character, but her behavior towards him always lacked a sense of sincerity.

I bought it. Or, I guess, I'm willing to believe it was real. But we never got to see a lot of their relationship in general, so it's very hard to say. Although, if Kate conning Neal would have been the route they wanted to go, they probably would have hinted at it.

18 hours ago, TheLovelyAnomaly said:

As for Neal's relationship with Sarah, personally I didn't put much stock in it either. I didn't dislike Sarah but I don't think she would have made Neal happy for very long, or vice versa. They were just too different,

I think they were more alike than they seemed to be at first glance. Sara didn't mind coloring outside the lines, she said herself that she often operates in grey areas and stretches the law. I don't think she ever would have become a criminal or if she would have been able to accept that the Neal she got was the Neal she got and I don't think Neal would have completely changed either. But the life he had built in New York and/including Sara were the reasons Neal had so many doubts about leaving New York when they had the Nazi treasure.

I think what was most important to Sara was that Neal was honest with her; she wanted him to trust her and let her in.

[CheshireCat]

I just rewatched episode 7 from S4, the one where Sara and Peter have to take intimate photos. I had completely forgotten about that scene until now but it's such a gem. They're all so hilarious. I laughed out loud.

I really love how awkward Peter is with all the romance in general and that Elizabeth is always cheering him on and encouraging him.

[andromeda331]

7 hours ago, CheshireCat said:

I just rewatched episode 7 from S4, the one where Sara and Peter have to take intimate photos. I had completely forgotten about that scene until now but it's such a gem. They're all so hilarious. I laughed out loud.

I really love how awkward Peter is with all the romance in general and that Elizabeth is always cheering him on and encouraging him.

Yeah Peter and Sara are so awkward and Elizabeth's giving them suggestions. Same with her helping him practice for the black widow or helping him get into the clinic in season one. When she finds the woman's business card and instead of getting jealous like so many other shows would have she asks about it when she learns he was flirting with a woman she looks like she's about to get upset or cry and instead just starts laughing. She knows how much he hates flirting. I swear every cop, detective, etc. spouse should be just like her. She's so great and helpful.

[swanpride]

The funniest moment of their relationship is in the episode when Peter gets kidnapped and they are both completely upset beforehand because he didn't say "hon" to her. Especially the reaction of Neal and Mozzie to what counts for them as a serious tiff in their marriage.

[andromeda331]

11 minutes ago, swanpride said:

The funniest moment of their relationship is in the episode when Peter gets kidnapped and they are both completely upset beforehand because he didn't say "hon" to her. Especially the reaction of Neal and Mozzie to what counts for them as a serious tiff in their marriage.

Yeah! I love both their reactions when they find out it was about the dry cleaning. 

[TheLovelyAnomaly]

On 9/18/2019 at 9:14 PM, CheshireCat said:

I just rewatched episode 7 from S4, the one where Sara and Peter have to take intimate photos. I had completely forgotten about that scene until now but it's such a gem. They're all so hilarious. I laughed out loud.

I really love how awkward Peter is with all the romance in general and that Elizabeth is always cheering him on and encouraging him.

Agreed! I laughed so hard watching that scene. I especially liked the bit where Sarah gets aggravated, pulls down Peter's shirt and says, "Is this better?" And Peter's just like, "Whoa." I also loved Peter's awkwardness when it came to romance. I found it endearing--and oftentimes more attractive than Neal's effortless charm (I'm super awkward in real life and about as romantic as a sneeze right before a kiss, so I tend to gravitate towards awkward and unromantic characters; I feel for them, haha). Plus, I adore Tim Dekay. I think he's a wonderful actor, and a cutie.

As a side note, it was actually because of Tim that I decided to watch White Collar. I had found Carnivale on Amazon Prime, and had fallen in love with him in that, so I wanted to see what else he'd done. Come to find out I'd seen him in other things beforehand--The 4400, Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D., and Get Smart to name a few--but didn't remember since it'd been so long since I'd watched them. When I saw that he was in White Collar--as a regular, no less--I was like, "Guess I'm hunting down White Collar. I don't think it'll be my thing, but I'm willing to give it a try." Well, I ended up loving the show, and the characters (they mean so much to me), but if it weren't for Tim, I would not be the White Collar fan I am today!         

Edited September 29, 2019 by TheLovelyAnomaly