Children Of Earth: WHY!

[Luckylyn]

This felt like a series finale for me.  I just don't get why everything had to be destroyed.  RTD's scorched Earth policy with COE is something I never understood.  Not only losing the hub but killing Ianto in one of the most stupid character death's I've ever seen so soon after killing Tosh and Owen was just too much for me.   I feel like Torchwood ended with COE and everything after is a spinoff.

 

I still liked COE more than MD.  The scenes with the government making their horrific decisions were compelling and the pacing made more sense than in MD.  I felt the stakes in COE even though there are tons of plot holes.

 

The possibility of the 456 having a nasty reaction to Jack's rejection of their request for children was foreseeable. Torchwood are supposed to be the experts and have been dealing with alien threats for decades. Jack himself has tons of experience. Yet, they act like complete amateurs. One thing that drives me nuts about COE is that everyone acts like alien threats are new. The government is willing to blow up the hub and all the tech that could be used to defend earth against a variety of threats. I feel like they are acting like the 456 is the only threat they've ever known. Where was Unit? Where was Sarah Jane? Apparently, Martha and Mickey had their honeymoon under a rock and didn't know all the children of earth were being taken over and made to move and speech against their will. Jack can kill his grandson to save children but can't disturb Martha on her honeymoon to get help.

 

I never bought that all the countries of the world would react unilaterally to the 456 threat.  They would have gone to war with each other trying to force weaker countries to give up their kids before sacrificing their own.

[Captanne]

I bow down in humble awe of the title of this thread.

[Captanne]

The oldsters here have heard this comment from me before but indulge me:  Since watching the original Canadian television show "La Femme Nikita" twenty years ago (?!), I developed an interest in hearing from folks who watched serial shows that had a big hook right in the middle -- the opinions of those who had been watching since Day One (pun intended) and those who had come in at the "hook" show and watched from there.

 

For LFN, I came in at the hook and that's what drew me in*.  (*Google to season three and see the whopping change the show made.  A favourite and well-established character had been leading a double life.)

 

I loved LFN and I loved it for the hook.

 

The people who had come in from Day One (pun again intended) and had fallen in love with the character as he had been given to them, hated the hook and complained about the show bitterly until it died an ugly death.

 

Sound familiar?

 

CoE fascinates me in the way a train wreck or a serial killer fascinates me.  I can't watch it ever, ever again -- and I have tried.  Witnesses here (or at TWoP, more accurately,) will testify.  

 

But I do understand those who came to the show Torchwood with CoE as an introduction.  It was a splashy, big budget, "people really fucking die", "girls can be action heroes" kind of affair.

 

But it physically demolished the series and continued the whole-sale assassination of the characters, both literally and figuratively. 

 

To me it seems, RTD carelessly, ruthlessly and coldly betrayed the entire core and corps of those of us who had been watching since the beginning.  (And some of us started watching the franchise when we were children and go all the way back to the Fourth Doctor - Tom Baker!  Squee!)

Edited May 31, 2014 by Captanne

[Luckylyn]

 

To me it seems, RTD carelessly, ruthlessly and coldly betrayed the entire core and corps of those of us who had been watching since the beginning.

 

I get what you're saying.  I remember at the time wondering if he was trying to discard so much in order to bring Torchwood to America, but it was too much and so unnecessary.   I think killing Ianto and destroying all the alien tech except the contact lenses was just ridiculous.  Killing Ianto so soon after killing Tosh and Owen was just too much.  Plus, there was more story for Ianto if the writers had been interested to tell it.

 

I think getting rid of the alien tech was just insane.   What is Torchwood without the tech?  It's not even Torchwood anymore and is something more generic.

[Captanne]

That's why every rewatch should start with "Tooth and Claw".  To understand the fundamental purpose of Torchwood and why Queen Victoria started it as a knee-jerk reaction to the Doctor's alien influences.

 

Unfortunately, this site takes our Doctor Who episode discussions and moves them to the Doctor Who forum -- which is totally their right and I see why they do it.

 

But, it makes our re-watches have less of the story and that's why I'm not really interested in partaking.  A rewatch that doesn't include the whole story is -- not really worth my time.

 

Re-watches are great for old folks who know the story - but for those who need the Tooth and Claw backstory, frex, for the newbies -- winding all over this huge website to get plotline and discussion is impossible (ETA:  and unfair) to expect.

Edited May 31, 2014 by Captanne

[Swansong]

 

What is Torchwood without the tech?  It's not even Torchwood anymore and is something more generic.

They did keep the lenses. Apparently that's the only tech that matters these days.

 

It did give me a, probably unintentional laugh in s4, when either Gwen or Jack would brag that they were Torchwood. And I would think there is no Torchwood you blew it all up in s3. You have no relevance. I get that as far as RTD was concerned TW was only ever Gwen and her sidekick Jack, but that only works on a meta level. Why destroy everything about it if you want it still have any real relevance in-show? 

 

I liked COE more than MD, but that's because at least COE was coherent. MD just felt like a waste of a great story line and lasted longer so its annoying parts were more prolonged. The acting was really strong. I wasn't that impressed with Frobisher as a character, but Peter Capaldi made him work.

 

I think I would have found it ten times more enjoyable if they'd focused on the family/social drama because RTD is adept at that and less on the politicians because there he was just so heavy handed.But I wish they hadn't made the characters so very, very stupid just to move the plot along. I get that RTD's setting for all politicians is evil, but couldn't they have been reasonably smart evil. When Frobisher suggests they blow up Torchwood for no really compelling reason in the middle of an alien crisis they were still trying to sort out I just headdesked. And when he gives that blank piece of paper to Bridget and then she spells out the entire kill plot in her e-mail. Like shouldn't she just be able to write 'blank page' and then the names of the potential victims and the would-be assassins understand? I get that it was a lazy way to get Lois to understand what's going on, but it made Bridget look so incompetent and stupid. Especially since she insisted on leaving her password just lying around for anyone to see. I won't even touch on Jack and Ianto's walk of stupid to Ianto's pointless death.

 

But I didn't enjoy the way they handled Ianto or his relationship with Jack. Both those things just felt so half-assed like something they had to check off their list before they moved on to more important stuff. In fact for a show called Torchwood the Torchwood stuff seemed mostly unnecessary like it was only there because RTD couldn't make the show he wanted to make without them. The only thing they seemed to make any real effort with was Gwen's development. And  the seemingly endless physical torture of Jack was just so gratuitous and got kind of annoying after a while. I've never been Jack's biggest fan, but I can't say I've particularly enjoyed how they've handed him these past two seasons. His story lines lately have just felt like an excuse for some torture porn. I hated that they pretty much ignored TW dealing with the fallout of Tosh and Owen's death. i know the excuse was that they only had five episodes, but considering how they handled the fallout from COE in MD with double the amount of episodes I don't think the amount of episodes was the issue. And I get that dark is in in drama, but it was hard to care about any of the deaths because most of the characters were so under-developed and the death toll seemingly endless that I just stopped caring after a while. I think in that particular case less definitely would have been more.

 

 

Edited June 5, 2014 by Swansong

[indeed]

I think getting rid of the alien tech was just insane. What is Torchwood without the tech? It's not even Torchwood anymore and is something more generic.

Exactly. What's the point? Oh, because the tech was too much of a crutch and RTD thought it would be more interesting to take EVERYTHING away from Torchwood. Except for the super special pair of contact lenses that get even more special when the plot needs it to do cartwheels. Oh, and except for the Torchwood servers. Oh, and except for Jack's vortex manipulator--because he just can't be Jack without that or his coat.

[April Bloodgate]

I just watched this for the first time, and I mostly enjoyed it. (enough that I watched it straight through in one sitting) Of course, I hated Ianto's death, Jack killing his grandson, and the overall way it ended, but I generally thought it was entertaining. (I guess I thought everything was pretty good up until Ianto's death.) Seems like that's a pretty unpopular opinion around here though. 

[itsmeyousee]

Hi Denay

 

I quite liked COE and while yes i hated Ianto dying cause he is my fav character. I hated more the way he died, walking into a room with an alien in bullet proof casing that could poison him with a gun, is just such a really dumb plan and dumb plans aren't Ianto's style. He is way too smart and should have talked Jack into a different plan. But while horrific Jack sacrificing his grandson for the world seemed like a Jack thing to do, so i was ok with that. And i really liked the end, i thought it made sense for Jack to go. He was stuck on earth waiting for the Doctor and then came back for his Team and Torchwood and that's all gone. Time for Jack to go back to the stars , where he came from.

 

But i think COE is much like MD really, you either liked it or you didn't unlike Season 1 or 2 where the story changed.

[Luckylyn]

Despite hating Ianto's horribly written death I still think COE is much better than MD.  I think Forbisher's character and the scenes of the government making the decision to sacrifice the kids were incredibly compelling.

[Captanne]

I didn't think CoE was Torchwood -- that's my big problem with it.  Who were those people who pretended to be the main ensemble cast?

 

So my first reaction on viewing was horror, shock and utter confusion.

 

Like a kid expecting a sweet and getting treacle.

 

If I were able to erase that (and I can't seem to), I guess it was entertaining if utterly nonsensical and two dimensional.  The monster had plot holes in it a mile wide and the characterization of Big Bad Gummint was insulting.  The idea that the rest of the world would just "go along with it" was absurd.  As a friend of mine said, "Putting children in transport and taking them to certain torture and death by the thousands?  I don't want to be the one calling Israel with this suggestion."  

 

So the very fundamentals of the series were rotten to the core.

 

Mileage varies.

 

The production values were great.

Edited July 29, 2014 by Captanne

[Swansong]

I thought it was ok. Not terrible, but not particularly great either. I think it relies too often on characters behaving in unnecessarily moronic ways just to move the plot from a to b that it makes it hard for me to take much of it seriously. The aliens don't really make a lick of sense  which I could probably overlook if I liked the other stuff better. And as shocking as it seems I watched Torchwood for Torchwood and yet despite being alien experts, despite this being an alien invasion it felt like the script has trouble figuring out how to incorporate them into their own show. The stuff with Jack and Ianto just felt very paint by numbers and going through the motions. Mostly it just felt like it was there because the show is called Torchwood and they had to pay lip service to that. I would have preferred more of the family stuff and less of the political stuff which l agree was mostly two dimensional. They seemed to be going for a banality of evil theme, but the characters seemed to be evil just to be evil because they're politicians and that's supposedly enough of a reason as far as the writing is concerned.I think the issues that plague the first two seasons are pretty much in full force in this season and yet it always oddly seems to get a pass.

Edited July 29, 2014 by Swansong

[indeed]

.I think the issues that plague the first two seasons are pretty much in full force in this season and yet it always oddly seems to get a pass.

It's the pretty packaging and strong performance by Capaldi. At least the other two seasons didn't bathe in melodrama the majority of the time.

[Captanne]

I have been a Capaldi fan since I can't even remember.  Probably since he did "The Crow Road" (1996) because I love the author of that novel, Iain Banks (RIP) and, well:  CORVIDS.

 

Seriously, though, the first thing I must've seen Capaldi in was "Local Hero" (1983) which is on my list as the funniest, most sublime comedy ever made.  (Drama, scifi, is Bladerunner NON-director's cut (1982).  Drama, non-scifi, is The Year of Living Dangerously (1982).  So, apparently the early 80s were good years for my taste.)

 

ETA:  My cast finally comes off today (in about an hour -- and, yes, everyone has warned me my arm will look like a worm and smell like a kitty butt, thanks, I know) so my typing can only improve from here on out!!!  :-)

Edited July 29, 2014 by Captanne

[Dizzy76]

Swansong, everything you wrote was beautifully stated and I'm just going to nod to you and throw out a, "Everything she said!"  I really couldn't have summed up my feelings better.

 

Hiya, Denay! Welcome to the conversation.  I hope to see more of you and your take on some of the other episodes.

 

Captanne, congrats on the cast coming off!  Looking forward to seeing the fruits of those typing hands being set free and getting stronger.  :)

[Captanne]

I'm back in the saddle, folks!  Hand is free and clear -- of course it is a bit weak and looks a bit frightening but beggars can't be choosers.  (And, no, no kitty butt smell or worm-like tendencies.)

 

Here:  John Barrowman at ComicCon (also in the more appropriate thread):  http://mustang-sal.tumblr.com/post/88936409959/so-this-might-be-the-most-adorable-thing-ive-ever

 

Also, CoE sucked like a Hoover.

[Dizzy76]

Moved my comment to the more appropriate thread,

Edited July 29, 2014 by Dizzy76

[April Bloodgate]

Hiya, Denay! Welcome to the conversation.  I hope to see more of you and your take on some of the other episodes.

Aww, thanks, @Dizzy76!

[Chip]

For discussion of Children of Earth, this is the thread.

 

For discussion of Children of Earth compared to Miracle Day, go here: http://forums.previously.tv/topic/11985-children-of-earth-vs-miracle-day-compare-contrast-discuss/

 

Spoiler policy and all that. I moved some of the discussion there already.

[theredhead77]

Here:  John Barrowman at ComicCon (also in the more appropriate thread):  http://mustang-sal.tumblr.com/post/88936409959/so-this-might-be-the-most-adorable-thing-ive-ever

I'm having a really bad day (so, you know, a CoE discussion should cheer me right up). That is the most adorable thing ever. JB is frelling fantastic.

[Captanne]

"Frell" is the word, all right!  :-)

 

Isn't he adorable?  

[Captanne]

I told Mousey over in the Something Borrowed thread that I'd either find or link to my Amazon review of CoE so here it is:  Dated March 19, 2010.

 

 

 

Please beware of unintentional Spoilers:

1. Remove the word "Torchwood" from the title of CoE and what you have is a small band of people who work in the same "office building" in Cardiff, Wales. Their mission is to save the Earth from any alien threat. In the beginning of the series, one lone, sad, sick alien invades. (Incredibly, no other alien can be found.) The "office building" and everything in it is utterly destroyed. Now homeless, the group struggles to find unity (and equipment) to fight the Enemy and Save the Earth. (Amusingly, one of the heroes has had his office building blown out from under him before. I'm starting to think he just has really bad karma when it comes to structural integrity.) SO, this Big Bad Sick-to-Its-Stomach Alien never once proves it can destroy more than a few hapless souls in yet another unlucky piece of architecture. However, everyone is convinced (for some reason) that this shadowy, farty villain is actually a threat and the World Gummints agree to meet its demands. Not very surprisingly, the Gummints are run by cruel, self-serving, vote-mongering, witless hypocrites.

So, what's new?

Before the end of the show, we witness child abuse, mass child enslavement, infanticide, discriminatory epithets as humour, adult dismemberment, Neo-Nazi Stormtrooper Look-a-likes rounding up frightened children and tearing them away from their equally frightened parents, a father's methodical murder of his wife and daughters and his subsequent suicide....And that's just Humanity! Not to be outdone, the Alien brings us drug addiction, mass murder and asphyxiation. Gosh, I'm sure I forgot something.

The final disposition of the Alien is so ghastly that I can't begin to describe it without spoiling the end. Let's just say it involves the brutal and gory murder of a child while his mother screams in the background.

2. Now add "Torchwood" back into the title. I'm not sure why you would do this, though, because the show has nothing to do with Torchwood except very superficially. The ensemble cast is the same. The location is the same (well, okay, until most of it is destroyed in the very beginning and they relocate to London, UK.) Um. Did I mention the ensemble cast is the same? Yeah. So, there's that. Um. Oh, yeah, the costumes are the same.

Mostly what you have is that nothing but the faces are the same. The Superhero who was clever, diabolically handsome, timeless, sexy and funny--is a morose, moody and distant cypher who made a terrible, terrible mistake in the past and simply repeats it with even more soul-crushing results. The Loyal Sidekick spends his time trying to figure out where he stands regarding his boss (a valid pursuit) and blundering into places he's far too smart to blunder--with even more soul-crushing results. The Faithful Second-in-Command finds herself transformed into a Pregnant Ninja (no, really) and, finally, is the only one left standing.

So, before plonking down the sizable sum to buy this DVD consider that it's really not "Torchwood" at all and what it ~is~ is pretty damned depressing.

What saves my rating from the negative numbers (aside from the fact that I don't have that option here at Amazon) is the fact that the acting is fantastic. The ensemble cast is so very good that I'm going to keep my eye out for other endeavours as their careers advance. The veteran, Peter Capaldi, is divine and always, always worth the price of admission.

Edited September 14, 2014 by Captanne

[itsmeyousee]

Thank you for that Captanne but it is basically what i thought you thought, if that makes sense LOL. Most of your hatred is about the kids, what Jack did/will do, muppet druggy aliens and TW team are pod people. Good review though

 

I'll go over to the COE vs MD to explain what i meant. Jumping all over the place to make sure we don't spoil LOL

[ElleMo]

We just started watching Dr. Who and Torchwood this year.  On the Matt Smith era in Dr. Who and just finished watching COE on Torchwood.  

 

In the beginning I liked it, but then started to get very annoyed.  As others have mentioned, this is not the first time that have been contacted by aliens.  No one thought they might return? 

The gov't has known about alien threats for a long time and no one expect one lone guy did anything to learn about the aliens? Never asked Unit for help?  Even worse, Jack never assumed that the aliens would come back?  With all those alien gadgets he never tried to devise a way to defeat them?  Never asked the doctor about this alien race?  It makes no sense. 

Why did the aliens need the governments anyway? They had control over the kids, why not just make them march to a pick up point and get them from there?

So you want Jack and the team dead.  Any reason you need to blow up Torchwood instead of trying to access their tech that may have helped combat the aliens?

Also hated: Jack's stupid nonplan for the aliens & Ianto's death.  Ending with grandson

[Captanne]

Children of Earth sucked like a Hoover.  No one was in character and the Muppet in a Box was beyond ridiculous.  

Not everyone agrees with me.  LOL  But, when I saw Children of Earth I wept both for Ianto and the show I loved.

[indeed]

I got sucked into rewatching it recently and UGH.  Still pisses me off.  LOL

It's presented in a pretty package and has a tight/intense format, but it's not Torchwood IMO.

Oh well, they're sticking with it...and Miracle Day.  No timey-wimey reset.  I haven't even bothered to see what they're doing with "season 5" and the consequences that started with the new direction at the end of COE Day 1.

 

The government had to blow up the base or Torchwood would have solved it by the next episode (if not by the end of the very first episode).  ;)  And apparently they knew already that Torchwood didn't have anything of any worth (even though they were trying to infiltrate it).  *eyeroll*

 

Don't get me started!  LOL

[Captanne]

Is RTD involved?

[indeed]

Yes.