S06.E19: Seeing Red

[Joe Hellandback]

The Good; The Orb theft and the wonderful battle between Buffy and the Troika. Tara and Willow getting back together and Dawn's delighted reaction to it. And Anya still looking for the vengeance.

The Bad; Not so much bad as the ending and the bathroom scene are just shocking. Contrary to common belief you can see the jetpack under Warren's jacket as he's fighting Buffy although you wonder how Jonathon didn't notice? Warren doesn't so much abandon Andrew, he flies off and expects Andrew to follow him.

Best line; Jonathon; (arrested and taken to the police station) "Uh oh. The BIG house"

Women good/men bad; Anya's latest victim had her boyfriend cheat on her with her sister. Spike forcing himself on Buffy on the bathroom floor, rape the crime that subjugates women and demeans men. Waren calls Buffy 'superbitch'.

Jeez!; I find the bathroom scene just unwatchable, Buffy's terrified, tearful pleading is just heartrending. So brutally realistic compared to what we saw between Darla and Angel in 'Reprise'. You also feel sorry for poor Buffy hurting her back. Sure she has Slayer healing but it still HURTS! Andrew actually yells "Kill her! Kill her!". Tara and Buffy shot, Willow soaked in Tara's blood.

Kinky dinky; Spike's awful ravishing Buffy on the floor of the bathroom (if we don't count the Master the 6th time Buffy has been sexually assaulted unless someone can correct me?).

Captain Subtext; Buffy seems quite intrigued by the Vampirella action figure in the Geeks lair. Andrew's desire to get his hands on Warren's orbs. You wonder who the Klingon love poems are written by and dedicated to? "He never really loved...hanging out with us". Willow and Tara give us a good idea of exactly what they got up to after the candle went out in New Moon Rising much to Dawn's delight "I love you guys!". When Willow and Tara say they'll stop kissing Dawn tells them 'Oh you'd better not'. Will says to Tara "Yes mam!". Spike and Buffy have discussion about the nature of love, Spike saying that it burns and consumes, Buffy saying that such fiery love doesn't last. Willow had an inkling something was going on between Spike and Buffy. You rather get the idea that Spike hangs around with Clem because he's lonely, Buffy might have sex with him but she doesn't actually like him, she doesn't want to talk with him or watch Knightrider marathons (Spike seems like a fan, mentioning KITT in a season 5 Angel ep). Buffy emasculates Warren by 'smashing his orbs'.

Scoobies to the ER; Xander get's pretty bloody from Warren's punch and Buffy's nasty backache and bruise. Buffy and Tara shot at the end.

Apocalypses; 6

Scoobies in bondage: astonishingly Tara gets through three years as a Scooby without being tied up even once!

Recurring characters killed: byebye Tara who finally made it into the opening titles only to leave us forever. Watched this first at a convention where people cheered when she showed up in the opening credits and wept openly when she died (oddly the previous week I'd watched Xena's last ep at another convention, I seemed to spend most of that year surrounded by crying lesbians).

Spike; good or bad? Now I was quite amazed how when this came out how many people sought to excuse Spike for the Buffyrape, they actually said things like 'Oh she led him on, she gave out mixed signals' etc and referred to the scene in the Bronze in Dead Things as proof. I actually challenged people on The Bronze by asking them was Buffy 'asking for it'? Spike tries to rape Buffy and had she been anyone but the Slayer he would surely have succeeded. As he says 'I would never..' and she correctly replies "Because I stopped you!" and "Now ask me why I can never love you!". Ultimately I think Spike loves Buffy as much as he's able to,'quite well' as Dru says in Crush and has done many heroic things but without a soul he can never be good, he is the serial killer in prison obeying the rules for his own benefit. Xander is 100% right about him. And Buffy can't truly love him not only because of what he's done but because he has no soul, he's not the full package.

Dawn in peril; 9

Dawn the bashful virgin; 9 plays the TV really loud to drown out the Willow/Tara sex

What the fanficcers thought; Needless to say many sought to bring Tara back through various literary devices (and the same with Joyce and Cordy). Personally I have no problem with that as long as there is some form of price to be paid as there's been this season for bringing back Buffy, not just Willow did a spell and there she was.

Questions and observations; Spike still has his motorcycle from Bargaining. Another numbered t-shirt for Willow. I always thought that the blonde girl Anya chats up in the bar played Tru's best friend in Eliza Dushku's series Tru Calling but she isn't. Warren refers to Jonathon as 'The Shemp' which is a term coined by Sam Rami and Bruce Campbell in The Evil Dead (Bruce Campbell is in the X-files with Seth Green so in 2) and Clem seems to think that wrapping a wet towel around Spike's head will disable his chip an idea he seems to have garnered from Total Recall (Arnold Schwarzenegger is in True Lies with ED so in 2).

Marks out of 10; 8/10 fun, powerful but ultimately tragic

[Halting Hex]

4 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Best line; Jonathon; (arrested and taken to the police station) "Uh oh. The BIG house"

Oh, surely not.  Not a patch on Buffy crushing Warren's balls and doing her R-Rated Gracie Allen impression:  "Goodnight, bitch."

Or there's always Xander's reaction to Buffy's redefining Warren as "the evil Uno":  "the sinister-yet-addictive card game?"

Fairly well-constructed, except for stretching out the rape scene for cheap shock by taking a commercial break in the middle of it.  (In contrast, in The Pack, Hyena!Xander's attack on Buffy is resolved during the break; we don't come back to "rejoin the action already in progress".  And of course that's not even the main issue; our key confrontation there is the Pack vs. Flutie, and that's finished off as we go to break, too.) And only truly repulsive in Buffy giving Spike unearned free pass #4,368 in a series (collect them all! Or rather, don't.) by hiding her injuries from Willow and getting Xander to cover for her.  Just think, one quick fireball and the Bleached Turd could have been flushed for good.

Well, okay, we also have to listen to Whiny Willie Wannabite rambling on and justifying himself to fucking Clem (was there ever a more useless character?  He's got no interior life or motivation; he's only there so Spike has someone to vent to) before he gets on his motorcycle and leaves town, never to return.

Spoiler

Shhh!  Don't ruin it for the unspoiled, let them dream…

The shameless idiotic emotional manipulation re W/T (omg, she dies just when they're back together!  It's like Giles and Jenny, except far more obvious and shitty! Plus there's no way in hell that bullet could have hit Tara at the angle Warren was firing) certainly has the potential to ruin future episodes, but it doesn't impact this one that much.  Mostly it just gave us an opportunity for some incredibly poor-taste "Your shirt…" riffs in the "Lines You'll Never Hear on Buffy" topic on TWoP, which, let's face it, is pretty much the sort of thing that thread lived for:

Quote

TARA: Your shirt…

WILLOW (defensive): Oh, yeah? Well, have you seen what you're wearing?

Quote

TARA: Your shirt…

WILLOW:  Oh, I can get this one!  Things that are red? Things that are sticky? (TARA falls to the ground, stone dead) No, no, no, baby, baby!  Come back! One more hint and I'd have had it!!

I'm proud-yet-sad to say that neither of those were mine.  I just contributed tasteful scenes, like the one where Buffy and Giles had sex on Joyce's coffin in Forever.  (Don't ask, it's a long story…)

Okay, we're rather off-topic, I suppose.  So, functional, not terribly repulsive, albeit a touch dreary. 5/10?  Although I could be convinced to tick it up a point for those cool Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade saw blades early on.  Even if they did ruin Buffy's lovely oxblood leather coat…

But nah.  Too much fluffing of the 'ships at the expense of the characters I like.  A quick glance at the script reminds me of how gross it is that they write Willow as an idiot in the teaser so Tara can "gently clue her in" about Spuffy, and then we get this pearl in the Buffy/Xander scene:

Quote

BUFFY: What I do with my life is none of your business

Yeah, you might to rethink that in about ten minutes' screentime.  I'm just saying.

Quote

BUFFY: It just happened, okay.

XANDER: Oh, like, "Say, you're evil. Get on me."?

Yeah, pretty much.  My respect for Buffy's life choices is rather extinct by now, in case you hadn't noticed.

So I guess "5" is really the limit of my generosity.  Subject to further deductions if Spike ever comes back…

Edited November 1, 2018 by Halting Hex

[Joe Hellandback]

18 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

I'm proud-yet-sad to say that neither of those were mine.  I just contributed tasteful scenes, like the one where Buffy and Giles had sex on Joyce's coffin in Forever.  (Don't ask, it's a long story…)

 

An image too disturbing for words! Although I heard a theory Dawn and Buffy make love at the end of Forever, finding solace in one another. I remember in 'Thanks for taking care of my body Faith' Faith feels guilty about having sex with Spike in Buffy's body on what turns out to be Jenny Calendar's grave in the preceding story but consoles Buffy that maybe the dead like to watch after Buffy realises she had sex with Adam on Principle Flutie's grave.

You know, the true joy of fanfic is really, anything goes.    

[MagnusHex]

Holy shit, that ending. Most impressive. Didn't see that coming. I had thought that Willow would kill Tara accidentally through her magic addiction or something, but as I approached the end of the ep, and Tara and Willow still seemed fine together, I started to realize that it's gonna be an external threat... Damn. Whammer. That Willow scream in next episode's promo... oh, this is gonna be good!

Not really as offended by Spike as I expected. Perhaps I just have that low of an expectation for him, demon and all. I'm more surprised it didn't happen earlier.

[Jediknight]

Told you that you'd turn around on the Trio being a threat, especially Warren.

The most disturbing episode of Buffy, ever.  The attempted rape, and Warren's full blown out of control misogyny.  Warren's shit is a lot worse today, thanks to the rise of Incels.  In a world with vampires, a Mayor selling his soul to become a demon, and a hell god, the scariest stuff is the shit that can and has happened in real life.

There were some great moments in the episode.  Dawn's reaction to Willow and Tara being together was nice, it's surprising that on rewatch, I actually like Dawn.  Buffy kicking Warren's ass, including Jonathan telling her how to defeat him.  And Xander's comeback to Warren.

Warren tells Xander that he hits like a girl, thinking it's an insult.  The thing about that is that the most powerful people in Xander's life are women.  He's not gonna see that as an insult or be threatened by it, like Warren is.  Shit, Buffy even tells Warren that he's got issues with strong women, which we all know that's true.  When it comes to Xander, every woman that he's been attracted to or with are Buffy, Willow, Cordelia, Anya, and he had sex with Faith.  Xander loves strong confident women.  So the line of "You hit like a girl" isn't gonna piss off Xander, however Xander's retort of "At least I know how to get one", completely destroys Warren.  Just one of the big contrasts between Warren and Xander.  Granted Xander can be hot headed and a jerk at times, but he's always able to see the line and go running the other way instead of crossing it.

[MagnusHex]

10 hours ago, Jediknight said:

Told you that you'd turn around on the Trio being a threat, especially Warren.

The most disturbing episode of Buffy, ever.  The attempted rape, and Warren's full blown out of control misogyny.  Warren's shit is a lot worse today, thanks to the rise of Incels.  In a world with vampires, a Mayor selling his soul to become a demon, and a hell god, the scariest stuff is the shit that can and has happened in real life.

There were some great moments in the episode.  Dawn's reaction to Willow and Tara being together was nice, it's surprising that on rewatch, I actually like Dawn.  Buffy kicking Warren's ass, including Jonathan telling her how to defeat him.  And Xander's comeback to Warren.

Warren tells Xander that he hits like a girl, thinking it's an insult.  The thing about that is that the most powerful people in Xander's life are women.  He's not gonna see that as an insult or be threatened by it, like Warren is.  Shit, Buffy even tells Warren that he's got issues with strong women, which we all know that's true.  When it comes to Xander, every woman that he's been attracted to or with are Buffy, Willow, Cordelia, Anya, and he had sex with Faith.  Xander loves strong confident women.  So the line of "You hit like a girl" isn't gonna piss off Xander, however Xander's retort of "At least I know how to get one", completely destroys Warren.  Just one of the big contrasts between Warren and Xander.  Granted Xander can be hot headed and a jerk at times, but he's always able to see the line and go running the other way instead of crossing it.

Yeah, I have my issues with Xander (especially early seasons Xander), but at least he's more of a lovable dolt than consciously misogynistic. I can see now why folks would take the trio threat seriously, even if I still think they've been pretty lame prior to this ep.

  I especially love the line that Buffy threw back at Warren, "Goodnight, bitch." Ooh, someone get that man some burn heal.

[Jediknight]

14 hours ago, MagnusHex said:

I can see now why folks would take the trio threat seriously, even if I still think they've been pretty lame prior to this ep.

They were pretty lame and not threatening till Dead Things.  It's amazing how much they predicted the rise of Incels.  A group of friends  who are nerds and haven't had the best of luck with the opposite sex, hanging out, playing games and reading comics seems innocent enough.  And 99% of the time it is innocent, and it's just a tight knit group of friends.  But then you get that Warren in the group, who is able to take control and lead them astray, to where they blame everybody for their issues and become something incredibly dangerous.

And in the world of demons, hell gods, and vampires, who does the most damage to the Scoobies?  Warren, and he does it with a freaking gun.

Remember when the Master killed Buffy, he didn't run her down, he praised her courage for facing him despite the prophecy.  Warren, has none of that respect, he just shoots her, kills Tara, and if he was a better shot would have probably killed Xander.  He could have killed 3 Scoobies right there.

Warren is the most vile character Joss created for the entire Buffyverse.

[lembergwatcher]

On 3/24/2021 at 3:28 PM, Jediknight said:

Warren is the most vile character Joss created for the entire Buffyverse.

Warren is quite a repulsive type, yes, but he's just a small fry compared to Anya, Spike or Angel. At least when it comes to body counts...

 

I really don't understand why should Trio waste their time on robbing some armored truck in an amusement park when they can make lots of money by simply selling numerous Spuffy sex tapes? There were Trio's cameras placed literally everywhere, right? I guess all those cameras worked perfectly well while Buffy and Spike were having fun in the crypt...

Why take the unnecessary risk?

[Halting Hex]

10 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

I really don't understand why should Trio waste their time on robbing some armored truck in an amusement park when they can make lots of money by simply selling numerous Spuffy sex tapes?

To sell a pornographic film, you need to have releases on hand from the "performers".  (In order to verify that they're of legal age and consented to the filming.) I'm not saying that they couldn't have gotten ex post facto blessings from Spike and Anya, but I'm really dubious about Miss Buffy okaying this one.

I'd say "incredibly realistic sex-bots" is still Warren's best marketing opportunity, but I can see the allure of cold hard cash, too.  What's the point of having Invinci-Balls if you don't have the sack to try them out, right?

[lembergwatcher]

Or the Trio can blackmail Miss Buffy into giving them money or having sex with Warren and/or Jonathan. Simply by threatening to post Spuffy sex videos all over the web.

[Halting Hex]

Yeah, but that runs into that pesky "Buffy kicks your ass until it's a whole new shape" problem.  Might not be her wisest course of action…but are you willing to risk your body on waiting for Buffy to use logic?  Nice knowing you then, I suppose.

[Halting Hex]

Quote

BUFFY: Ask me again why I could never love you!

Er, Buffy, once your ex tries to rape you, the time for discussing your relationship is pretty much over.  To quote Giles (in NKAB), "It's staking time, surely?"

Lexie had her edited version up and while I haven't been looking at her S6 vids (why would I do that to myself?) her putting "I'M DONE" on the thumbnail made me intrigued about whether she'd been moved to quit the series.  (No, and it turns out she was just upset about Tara dying, which I honestly forgot about, because idgaf about Tara.  I just associate this episode with the rape and Spike needing to die, more than ever.)

So, out of pique, I decided to look at the rape scene (where Lexie was agog: "Why would you do that? You've ruined Spike!"  Yeah, because he was such a lovable character before, is that it?  FFS) and she did point out one thing I'd missed;  Buffy flinches when Xander enters, because she was worried it was Spike coming back.

Well, I'm pretty worried about Spike coming back, too…but one hopes we've seen the last of him.

Quote

"And you're what, shocked and appalled? I'm evil!"  —Spike, A New Man

Don't say he didn't warn you, Buffster.  Sigh.

Edited April 27, 2023 by Halting Hex

[MapleCourt]

Seeing Red was the first episode of Buffy the Vampire Slayer I ever saw. I was studying for finals in college and some girls turned on the TV and started watching Buffy. I was captivated almost immediately by the scene of the Trio fighting demons in the underground lair. And I was shocked (very pleasantly) that a same-sex couple was not only normalized but front and center and crucial to the show. I didn't know enough to be sad that Tara was shot but I was very intrigued by Willow's eyes turning red at the end.

It made me really want to watch the show but I would have been embarrassed to be seen watching it regularly so I had to wait for Netflix to come out 10 years later.

And I remember thinking how old Spike looked, I thought he was an old man with white hair. Now I think how young he looks!

Edited November 7, 2023 by MapleCourt

[Halting Hex]

Wow, that beats the story of the person on TWoP  (Television Without Pity, a previous message board) whose first episode was Doublemeat Palace.  I guess you never know what will hook someone.

(I, of course, first experienced the television magic that was Inca Mummy Girl, but we can't all be so fortunate.)

[Halting Hex]

On 11/1/2018 at 12:42 AM, Halting Hex said:

Fairly well-constructed, except for stretching out the rape scene for cheap shock by taking a commercial break in the middle of it.  (In contrast, in The Pack, Hyena!Xander's attack on Buffy is resolved during the break; we don't come back to "rejoin the action already in progress".

Further along these lines, in The Initiative, we go to commercial with Spike attempting to rape (and murder and vampirize) Willow, but when we return, the attack is over.  A neat way to avoid the most brutal moments.

(Of course, the ensuing "comedy" scene is more vile than perhaps anything else in the show, what with Willow, the Avatar of Innocence, pouting because she didn't get raped and cheering up her rapist and seeking sexual validation from him.  It's as if there were a scene in Passion where Angel can't do the neck-snap because his arthritis is flaring up…and Jenny is disappointed and wonders if this means she's no longer attractive, and rubs his wrists and tells him to try again. 

Even typing "jokes" like this makes me angry…)

Edited March 10 by Halting Hex