S06.E07: Once More With Feeling

[Joe Hellandback]

The Good; All of it, especially Tara's song and 'Going through the motions', Anya's solo is also a belter. Always leaving them wanting more, certainly true of the Spuffers in the final scene. Also love Tara's uncontrollable jazz hands during 'I've got a theory' and the ballet of morning in the Summer's house.

The Bad; ? I think Giles' song is the weakest . No real fan of Spike's either.

Best line; Giles; "Buffy needs backup"

Women good/men bad; Xander's witches theory which he rapidly recants.

Jeez!; Dawn getting the sack isn't nice.

Kinky dinky; Sweet wants to claim Dawn as his child bride but Buffy volunteers to go instead. She's not interested in the handsome hostage she rescues in the graveyard. Parking ticket girl isn't wearing any underwear. Anya mentions that Xander's 'penis got diseases from a Shumash tribe' which might be the best lyric in history. Dawn's superb dancing with Sweet and his minions is extremely suggestive, MT really starting to become noticeably voluptuous as well as tall. Dawn's story about giving birth to a Pterodactyl must have pleased the Got-ficcers. Love Anya's two-piece nightie, Xander loving it in the night when he's 'warm in her tight....tight embrace' which he also describes as 'firm and supple' later. Buffy goes to 'pump Spike for information'. She ends up straddling him in a grave.

Captain Subtext; Tara jokes that she's cured and 'wants the boys' who eye her up (don't blame them, Tara's corset certainly helps her already formidable cleavage). The end of her song where Willow's head disappears downwards as Tara floats is the filthiest bit of Buffy for, oh at least half a season. I'm sure Joss must have been tempted to do "You make me complete. You make me com..." then cut back to the Magic Shop but even the dumbest censor must have been able to spot that. Willow says she's not 'big with the butch'. Tara sings about 'Spreading beneath her Willow tree'. Dawn thinks Willow and Tara together is romantic and that she 'does know about this stuff'. Hmmmm? Of course the Willow/Tara sex scene is arguably rape, Willow's spell has interfered with Tara's mind and without it's influence she probably wouldn't consent to having sex with her. Sweet is 'tempted' to take Xander as his 'Queen' (well you know those Broadway types!) Anya is still a little jealous of Buffy saying Xander flees to her when things get tough.

Guantanamo Bay; Spike wants to make the minion "Sing"

Apocalypses; 6

Scoobies in bondage: Buffy: 8 Giles: 4 Cordy: 5 Will: 3 Jenny: 1 Angel: 4 Oz: 1 Faith: 3 Joyce: 1 Wes: 1 Xander; 1 Dawn; 3

Scoobies knocked out: Dawn comes-to on the pool table at the Bronze (probably not the first to do so) Buffy: 16 Giles: 11 Cordy: 6 Xander: 9 Will: 5 Jenny: 2 Angel: 6 Oz: 3 Faith: 1 Joyce: 3 Wes: 1 Anya;2 Dawn; 2

Kills: one of the trio of vamps Buffy kills in the graveyard has the distinction of being her hundredth vamp (killed on screen at least) plus their demon master Buffy: 101 vamps, 41 demons, 6 monsters, 3 humans, 1 werewolf, 1 spirit warrior & a robot Giles: 8 vamps, 2 demon, 1 human, 1 god. Cordy: 3 vamps, a demon Will: 6 vamps + 1 demon +1 fawn. Angel: 3 vamps, 1 demon, 1 human Oz: 3 vamps, 1 zombie Faith: 16 vamps, 5 demons, 3 humans Xander: 5 vamps, 2 zombies, 1 a demon, Anya: 1 vamp and 1 a demon Riley; 18 vamps + 7 demons Spike; 5 vamps and 2 demon Buffybot; 2 vamps Tara; 1 demon Dawn; 1 vamp

Sunnydale deaths; 3 burnt to death by their dancing 93;

Total number of scoobies: 7 Xander, Willow, Buffy, Giles, Anya, Tara, Spike

Xander demon magnet: 5(6?) Preying Mantis Lady, Inca Mummy Girl, Drusilla, VampWillow, Anya (arguably Buffy & Faith with their demon essences?), Dracula?

Scoobies shot: Giles: 2 Angel: 3 Oz: 4 Riley; 1

Notches on Scooby bedpost: Giles: 2; Joyce & Olivia, possibly Jenny and 3xDraccy babes? Cordy: 1? Buffy: 3 confirmed; Angel, Parker,Riley, 1 possible, Dracula(?) Angel: 1;Buffy Joyce: 1;Giles, 2 possible, Ted and Dracula(?) Oz: 3; Groupie, Willow & Verucca Faith:2 ;Xander, Riley Xander: 2; Faith, Anya Willow: 2;Oz and Tara Riley; 3; Buffy, Sandy and unnamed vampwhore

Spike; good or bad? Spike saves the day and earns his kiss

Dawn in peril; 6 as Buffy says "If Dawn's in trouble it must be Tuesday"

Dawn the bashful virgin; 5 horrified at the thought of being a demon bride.

Buffy and Dawn more than sisters? Again note that Buffy sings that 'Through the smoke she calls to me' as she makes her way to the Bronze, once again some sort of stronger link between Dawn and Buffy is suggested

Questions and observations; Longest ever ep of Buffy. Contary to popular belief not the first musical ep for a fantasy series, Xena did it first (the terrific 'The Bitter Suite') and arguably Ally McBeal too. But altogether splendid. Note that the newspaper has the city council denying that monsters are involved, SD's open secret apparent. Ironically in an ep where Tara takes Willow to task for magic abuse it's Xander who screws up everything. He is never brought to book for this, just as he's never called to account for his actions in Becoming Pt 2. In fairness it's hard to pick a Scooby who hasn't abused the supernatural and caused the deaths of innocent people? Note the look Tara gives Willow when she starts crying at Buffy's revelation, their rift forgotten.

One question, what is Buffy drawing in her notepad when Giles summons her for training in the teaser?

Marks out of 10; 10/10, legendary!

[Halting Hex]

Overrated.

(And character-destructive and ill-paced and exists only to pimp a Spuffy 'ship that is both repulsive and signals the series's reduction to blatant pandering and stealing from itself and Giles is an idiot who gets Buffy's basic problem wrong and Tara can't be bothered to even give Willow a chance to speak for herself and Xander was almost certainly covering for Dawn, but we've discussed all this before and probably will again.  So, let's keep it simple for now:  overrated.)

Marks?  What should "ambitious, but essentially a failure" qualify as?  Are we grading on the idea…or the result?  Well, given that I gave up trying to rewatch this about a decade ago (I wanted to enjoy the spectacle, but I came down with a spectacular case of the hackles in so trying), I think 5/10 has to be too high up the pole.  

But let's still give it an "E-for-Effort", ie, 4/10.

And at least this time Joss's "wah-wah, gimme an Emmy™, dammit!" pleading isn't claiming to be some Grand Statement on Grief, the way The Body was.  All this wants to do is entertain.  How Whedon thinks fading out on Humanity's Champion spitting on her calling by frenching an unrepentant mass-murderer qualifies as "entertainment" is perhaps left to a discussion between Joss and his psychiatrist, but I digress…

Edited October 11, 2018 by Halting Hex

[Jack Shaftoe]

The singing is nice. The plot and characterization, however,  are the same infuriating BS we see in most of S6, so a big thumb down. When people say "Noxon ruined season six, Joss was busy, you see!" I say "Look at OMWF, the roots of almost every problem plaguing the season are pretty obvious here, so please don't tell me Joss's vision was different and Marti somehow managed to undermine it as if the genius Whedon was on Mars or something". We have Spuffy which once again requires the Scoobs to do nothing to help Buffy, so Spike can take center stage. We have more and more anvils about Willow being up to no good. Xander and Anya are in some sitcom spin off of their own which isn't actually funny. Joss once again goes for a "Gotcha!" moment that makes no sense - "Xander did it!". And, of course, it also makes Xander incredibly callous for keeping this secret for no reason, it's not like the Scoobs would have done more than raise an eyebrow if he had spilled the beans earlier. But nah, people burn to death and he doesn't care.

We also have the Scoobs (stupidly) deciding to let Buffy fight the demon on her own, then changing their minds minutes later, only to let Spike do the actual helping in the end. Talk about contrived stupidity.

Also, as a Willow/Tara shipper, seeing Tara's romantic song, while knowing Willow was messing with her mind (you can even describe the situation as literal rape) makes me want to punch Joss in the face. Of course, Joss, being the mature adult that he is, follows the Hollywood cliche that happy couples are boring to a T.

But the singing is nice. Well, expect Spike's.

[lembergwatcher]

The singing is pretty mediocre IMO. Well, maybe Amber being the sweet exception. The absence of Willow's song continues to be one of the biggest logical gaps in the entire show. She either had no "dirty little secret" of her own or knew how to resist the spell, but chose not to tell her friends for some unknown reason. Say what you will, but without a song the whole Willow's presence in the ep is kinda problematic to say the least. Joss, you're a director, you work with people. Either make Aly sing that friggin' song or change the concept.

And that Xander/Anya shitty song made me say some foul words aloud the first time I heard (and saw) it. Very sad. Very-very sad. And we were told those two had a "miraculous love" in the previous season. It had always irritated me when they deliberately portrayed Willow/Tara (one of the most overrated couples in the Buffyverse) as having truly inspired, romantic and spiritual love (even despite a few kinky hints), while Xander/Anya always looked like a comic duo. I sincerely despise Xanya, but there had to be some, you know, balance. Otherwise making Buffy describe that affair as "miraculous love" was a pure hypocrisy on writers part.

Totally and unapologetically overrated ep.

Spoiler

The straw that broke the camel's back, thus turning Buffy into Spuffy show once and for all. 

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎11‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 10:09 PM, Halting Hex said:

Overrated.

(And character-destructive and ill-paced and exists only to pimp a Spuffy 'ship that is both repulsive and signals the series's reduction to blatant pandering and stealing from itself and Giles is an idiot who gets Buffy's basic problem wrong and Tara can't be bothered to even give Willow a chance to speak for herself and Xander was almost certainly covering for Dawn, but we've discussed all this before and probably will again.  So, let's keep it simple for now:  overrated.)

Marks?  What should "ambitious, but essentially a failure" qualify as?  Are we grading on the idea…or the result?  Well, given that I gave up trying to rewatch this about a decade ago (I wanted to enjoy the spectacle, but I came down with a spectacular case of the hackles in so trying), I think 5/10 has to be too high up the pole.  

But let's still give it an "E-for-Effort", ie, 4/10.

And at least this time Joss's "wah-wah, gimme an Emmy™, dammit!" pleading isn't claiming to be some Grand Statement on Grief, the way The Body was.  All this wants to do is entertain.  How Whedon thinks fading out on Humanity's Champion spitting on her calling by frenching an unrepentant mass-murderer qualifies as "entertainment" is perhaps left to a discussion between Joss and his psychiatrist, but I digress…

I never bought the idea that Xander covered for Dawn and Tara gives Willow some huge space given what she did to her. 

As for the ending it's complicated but that's real life.

On ‎11‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 10:47 PM, Jack Shaftoe said:

The singing is nice. The plot and characterization, however,  are the same infuriating BS we see in most of S6, so a big thumb down. When people say "Noxon ruined season six, Joss was busy, you see!" I say "Look at OMWF, the roots of almost every problem plaguing the season are pretty obvious here, so please don't tell me Joss's vision was different and Marti somehow managed to undermine it as if the genius Whedon was on Mars or something". We have Spuffy which once again requires the Scoobs to do nothing to help Buffy, so Spike can take center stage. We have more and more anvils about Willow being up to no good. Xander and Anya are in some sitcom spin off of their own which isn't actually funny. Joss once again goes for a "Gotcha!" moment that makes no sense - "Xander did it!". And, of course, it also makes Xander incredibly callous for keeping this secret for no reason, it's not like the Scoobs would have done more than raise an eyebrow if he had spilled the beans earlier. But nah, people burn to death and he doesn't care.

We also have the Scoobs (stupidly) deciding to let Buffy fight the demon on her own, then changing their minds minutes later, only to let Spike do the actual helping in the end. Talk about contrived stupidity.

Also, as a Willow/Tara shipper, seeing Tara's romantic song, while knowing Willow was messing with her mind (you can even describe the situation as literal rape) makes me want to punch Joss in the face. Of course, Joss, being the mature adult that he is, follows the Hollywood cliche that happy couples are boring to a T.

But the singing is nice. Well, expect Spike's.

I don't think Xander was that callous, he probably didn't really understand. Plus Giles was trying to get Buffy to stand on her own feet, without the final revelation he could just never anticipate how badly she was hurting. 

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎13‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 12:06 AM, lembergwatcher said:

The singing is pretty mediocre IMO. Well, maybe Amber being the sweet exception. The absence of Willow's song continues to be one of the biggest logical gaps in the entire show. She either had no "dirty little secret" of her own or knew how to resist the spell, but chose not to tell her friends for some unknown reason. Say what you will, but without a song the whole Willow's presence in the ep is kinda problematic to say the least. Joss, you're a director, you work with people. Either make Aly sing that friggin' song or change the concept.

And that Xander/Anya shitty song made me say some foul words aloud the first time I heard (and saw) it. Very sad. Very-very sad. And we were told those two had a "miraculous love" in the previous season. It had always irritated me when they deliberately portrayed Willow/Tara (one of the most overrated couples in the Buffyverse) as having truly inspired, romantic and spiritual love (even despite a few kinky hints), while Xander/Anya always looked like a comic duo. I sincerely despise Xanya, but there had to be some, you know, balance. Otherwise making Buffy describe that affair as "miraculous love" was a pure hypocrisy on writers part.

Totally and unapologetically overrated ep.

  Hide contents

The straw that broke the camel's back, thus turning Buffy into Spuffy show once and for all. 

It wouldn't be fair to make AH sing if she's not competent (they dubbed ROC in Xena), they also let MT just express herself through dance. I like Xanya's routine, it is a musical and it's perhaps the most broadway of all the numbers. 

[Halting Hex]

3 minutes ago, Joe Hellandback said:

they also let MT just express herself through dance

Well, they played to Michelle's strengths by including the dance, but Dawn also does a significant amount of singing in that song. (Although having her first singing attempt get cut off by her getting a bag over her head might be a bit of an in-joke, I'll allow.)

It's no "I think this line's mostly filler", I'm just saying.

[Joe Hellandback]

9 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Well, they played to Michelle's strengths by including the dance, but Dawn also does a significant amount of singing in that song. (Although having her first singing attempt get cut off by her getting a bag over her head might be a bit of an in-joke, I'll allow.)

It's no "I think this line's mostly filler", I'm just saying.

They do both join in with the chorus, they just can't carry a solo. Reportedly SMG was also nervous but I think she does fine. AH does sing again in HIMYM

[lembergwatcher]

Quote

SPIKE:
   Life's not a song
   Life isn't bliss
   Life is just this
   It's living
   You'll get along
   The pain that you feel
   You only can heal
   By living
   You have to go one living
   So one of us is living.

The undead guy, a walking corpse to be precise, singing about the joys of living is like Marilyn Manson recording a Christian rock album.

Poor Joss, he wanted so desperately to knock 'em dead, he didn't even bother to notice the supposed "best Buffy episode" made no sense whatsoever. But that's exactly what you get when you sacrifice the overall storyline and consistent characterization in favor of cheap sensation ("gee, it's the musical (!) episode and everyone starts to sing!!!") or pandering to the certain group of 'shippers...  

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎22‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 1:13 PM, lembergwatcher said:

The undead guy, a walking corpse to be precise, singing about the joys of living is like Marilyn Manson recording a Christian rock album.

Poor Joss, he wanted so desperately to knock 'em dead, he didn't even bother to notice the supposed "best Buffy episode" made no sense whatsoever. But that's exactly what you get when you sacrifice the overall storyline and consistent characterization in favor of cheap sensation ("gee, it's the musical (!) episode and everyone starts to sing!!!") or pandering to the certain group of 'shippers...  

Perhaps he appreciates it more because he doesn't have it?

[lembergwatcher]

4 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Perhaps he appreciates it more because he doesn't have it?

Like most of us Spike does appreciate something he cannot have. Only it's not "living". He was quite explicit about the whole thing 34 eps earlier, in Where The Wild Things Are:

Quote

SPIKE: (wistfully) You know ... you take the killing for granted. And then it's gone, and you're like, "I wish I'd appreciated it more." Stopped and smelled the corpses, you know?

Killing, not living.

When the demon, the creature of darkness which worships death and murder, starts "embracing" life, this is too much even by the Buffyversal standards.

Edited December 28, 2018 by lembergwatcher

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎28‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 6:11 PM, lembergwatcher said:

Like most of us Spike does appreciate something he cannot have. Only it's not "living". He was quite explicit about the whole thing 34 eps earlier, in Where The Wild Things Are:

Killing, not living.

When the demon, the creature of darkness which worships death and murder, starts "embracing" life, this is too much even by the Buffyversal standards.

But he still appreciates life and even human society. 

[lembergwatcher]

1 hour ago, Joe Hellandback said:

But he still appreciates life and even human society.

I wouldn't say he "appreciates life" primarily because he's been dead since long ago.  And how on earth do the bloodlust or an appetite for "happy meals on legs" relate to "appreciation" of human society? 

Edited December 30, 2018 by lembergwatcher

[lembergwatcher]

After Buffy storms into The Bronze (who's the place's owner/manager anyway? Seems like a favorite spot for demons to hang out) and starts singing "Something to Sing About", is it a pure coincidence Giles asks Anya and Tara to do the dance and backing vocals? Is it simply because Emma and Amber can sing or is there some deeper meaning to Buffy's old gang (G, W, X) standing aside and hardly participating in the episode's climax? 

Btw, seeing all those Dawn's dancing moves during "What You Feel" I can understand the reason why James Marsters had to write songs about the danger of going down that path. Poor Jimmy. I wonder if there are any fanfics where Dawn actually marries Sweet?..

Edited July 20, 2019 by lembergwatcher

[Joe Hellandback]

19 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

After Buffy storms into The Bronze (who's the place's owner/manager anyway? Seems like a favorite spot for demons to hang out) and starts singing "Something to Sing About", is it a pure coincidence Giles asks Anya and Tara to do the dance and backing vocals? Is it simply because Emma and Amber can sing or is there some deeper meaning to Buffy's old gang (G, W, X) standing aside and hardly participating in the episode's climax? 

Btw, seeing all those Dawn's dancing moves during "What You Feel" I can understand the reason why James Marsters had to write songs about the danger of going down that path. Poor Jimmy. I wonder if there are any fanfics where Dawn actually marries Sweet?..

Never read one maybe they could give long distance a go?

[lembergwatcher]

Okay, I think I got it. Seems like Joss the Boss has a huge thing for metaphors.

• Witchcraft is a (very) clumsy metaphor for gay lifestile (Family);
• Vampire hos bloodsucking for cash is probably a metaphor for living prostitutes giving fellatio (Shadow to Into the Woods);
• And, here can we interpret singing/dancing parts as a synonym for sex? Because, you know, most of those singing & dancing (except for B/G, G/T and B/A/T) are either lovers or soon-to-be lovers.

Heard a rumour that in the Indian movies (the younger Scoobs were watching one in Reptile Boy) singing and dancing are some sort of substitutes for hot sweaty sex since censorship restrictions do not allow more intimate expressions of affection... So... who knows what we've got here?.. But... Dawn/Sweet interaction? Is it just a dance or something more?.. Oh no, Joss, you old pervert, you... OTOH if Willow can virtually rape enchanted Tara why can't some adult demon have fun with a 15-years-old?.. Welcome to the Whedonverse, fellas!

[lembergwatcher]

Short clip from 2005. Seems like Michelle's singing improved a little bit over 3,5 years...

[Halting Hex]

Samuel L. Jackson clearly has no idea who MT is.  I don't know whether to be embarrassed on his behalf, or on hers.

[lembergwatcher]

5 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Samuel L. Jackson clearly has no idea who MT is.  I don't know whether to be embarrassed on his behalf, or on hers.

There's nothing to be embarrassed about, I'd say. It is forgivable for someone like Samuel L. Jackson not to know about MT. And it's no big for Michelle either. JMO, of course.

[Joe Hellandback]

On 8/5/2019 at 10:35 AM, lembergwatcher said:

Okay, I think I got it. Seems like Joss the Boss has a huge thing for metaphors.

• Witchcraft is a (very) clumsy metaphor for gay lifestile (Family);
• Vampire hos bloodsucking for cash is probably a metaphor for living prostitutes giving fellatio (Shadow to Into the Woods);
• And, here can we interpret singing/dancing parts as a synonym for sex? Because, you know, most of those singing & dancing (except for B/G, G/T and B/A/T) are either lovers or soon-to-be lovers.

Heard a rumour that in the Indian movies (the younger Scoobs were watching one in Reptile Boy) singing and dancing are some sort of substitutes for hot sweaty sex since censorship restrictions do not allow more intimate expressions of affection... So... who knows what we've got here?.. But... Dawn/Sweet interaction? Is it just a dance or something more?.. Oh no, Joss, you old pervert, you... OTOH if Willow can virtually rape enchanted Tara why can't some adult demon have fun with a 15-years-old?.. Welcome to the Whedonverse, fellas!

To be fair all the Scoobs lose it underage. 

On 1/6/2020 at 12:03 PM, lembergwatcher said:

There's nothing to be embarrassed about, I'd say. It is forgivable for someone like Samuel L. Jackson not to know about MT. And it's no big for Michelle either. JMO, of course.

Who doesn't know the Gossip Girl?

[Halting Hex]

On 1/11/2020 at 1:26 PM, Joe Hellandback said:

To be fair all the Scoobs lose it underage. 

Untrue.

In Innocence, we learn that Xander is older than Buffy, as he is already 17 years old ("I'm 17.  Looking at linoleum makes me think about sex.") whereas she just had her birthday two nights previously.  Apparently, he's had a birthday sometime since Reptile Boy (which was in October), when he spoke of being "16-and-a-half years" old.

But in S3, Buffy's 18th birthday (Helpless) precedes Xander being steered around the curves by Faith (The Zeppo).  So, he's legal.  Which you'd assume, because Faith has such a strict regard for legalities, of course.

We don't know when Willow's birthday is, but if her fake-sleep-talking "all Geminis to the raspberry hats" in Wild at Heart indicates that she's a Gemini (since you're more likely to cite your own Zodaical sign than any other), then it's about 50-50 she's 18 by Panicking Day, Part 1. Gemini runs from late May to late June; Prophecy Girl indicates that the school year runs into June, albeit we don't know exactly when.

Many people think that Cordelia didn't make it out of SHS "intact", but canonically Expecting indicates that she did.  If we believe The Prodigal where Cordy claims May 15th as her birthday, then she's coming up on her 19th birthday when she surrenders her flower.  If we choose to be guided by the mid-January airdate for Birthday (although nothing in that episode indicates that it couldn't be May in the episode…), then CC was already 19 before she had her ticket punched.

Oz has dabbled with groupies pre-Surprise, but remember, he's a year older than the rest.  It's not impossible for him to have turned 18 around the time of Inca Mummy Girl and only then dipped into the groupie pool.  Perhaps Devon is telling Oz not to be "too picky" in IMG because he knows Oz is legal and yet untried at that point.

Tara

Spoiler

(b. October 16, 1980, per her tombstone in Help)

is already 19 when we meet her.  (Early December, 1999.)  So not only has she had opportunities to legally float roses before Hush, but she might be from a state with a more-lenient age-limit.  While most of the West (Oregon, Idaho, Utah, Arizona) follows California's age-18 rule, only 7 other states do.  (North Dakota, Wisconsin, Delaware, Virginia, Kentucky, Tennessee, Florida.)  All the others have either 16 or 17 as the age of consent.

Riley (per the script note for The Initiative) is a junior when we meet him, so he's a year older than Tara.  Plenty of room for purely-legal fun, not that we ever hear about his romantic history.  (Parker's a senior [and a bigger creep for it], so he has even more space for legal pre-Buffy adventures.)

So, for all we know, Buffy is the only naughty pervert in the group.  Huh.

Edited January 12, 2020 by Halting Hex

[Joe Hellandback]

8 minutes ago, Halting Hex said:

Untrue.

In Innocence, we learn that Xander is older than Buffy, as he is already 17 years old ("I'm 17.  Looking at linoleum makes me think about sex.") whereas she just had her birthday two nights previously.  Apparently, he's had a birthday sometime since Reptile Boy (which was in October), when he spoke of being "16-and-a-half years" old.

But in S3, Buffy's 18th birthday (Helpless) precedes Xander being steered around the curves by Faith (The Zeppo).  So, he's legal.  Which you'd assume, because Faith has such a strict regard for legalities, of course.

We don't know when Willow's birthday is, but if her fake-sleep-talking "all Geminis to the raspberry hats" in Wild at Heart indicates that she's a Gemini (since you're more likely to cite your own Zodaical sign than any other), then it's about 50-50 she's 18 by Panicking Day, Part 1. Gemini runs from late May to late June; Prophecy Girl indicates that the school year runs into June, albeit we don't know exactly when.

Many people think that Cordelia didn't make it out of SHS "intact", but canonically Expecting indicates that she did.  If we believe The Prodigal where Cordy claims May 15th as her birthday, then she's coming up on her 19th birthday when she surrenders her flower.  If we choose to be guided by the mid-January airdate for Birthday (although nothing in that episode indicates that it couldn't be May in the episode…), then CC was already 19 before she had her ticket punched.

Oz has dabbled with groupies pre-Surprise, but remember, he's a year older than the rest.  It's not impossible for him to have turned 18 around the time of Inca Mummy Girl and only then dipped into the groupie pool.  Perhaps Devon is telling Oz not to be "too picky" in IMG because he knows Oz is legal and yet untried at that point.

Tara

  Hide contents

(b. October 16, 1980, per her tombstone in Help)

is already 19 when we meet her.  (Early December, 1999.)  So not only has she had opportunities to legally float roses before Hush, but she might be from a state with a more-lenient age-limit.  While most of the West (Oregon, Idaho, Utah, Arizona) follows California's age-18 rule, only 7 other states do.  (North Dakota, Wisconsin, Delaware, Virginia, Kentucky, Tennessee, Florida.)  All the others have either 16 or 17 as the age of consent.

Riley (per the script note for The Initiative) is a junior when we meet him, so he's a year older than Tara.  Plenty of room for purely-legal fun, not that we ever hear about his romantic history.  (Parker's a senior [and a bigger creep for it], so he has even more space for legal pre-Buffy adventures.)

So, for all we know, Buffy is the only naughty pervert in the group.  Huh.

Ah but doesn't CC in one ep talk about a certain girl having sex in her car, heavily implying that it's her?

[Halting Hex]

Often assumed to be her, but not really "implying", given that Cordelia specifically refers to the girl in the Miata as "not me". 

You may choose not to believe her, but the Official Story is that Cordy is the "good girl" her dad thinks she is, at least to a degree.

[MagnusHex]

Well, I watched it, and it didn't completely suck. lol

Honestly though, I went into it with a lot of cringe by the time Tara sang her love song with Willow. Not a big fan of musicals, certainly not a fan of peppy musicals. Ironically, however, I've seen enough musicals to know the structure and appreciate the storytelling the musical numbers add to the plot ("The Prince of Egypt" being my favorite animated musical that adds to the story with its music beautifully).

Can't say I really grew attached to any of the songs though. I mean, Whedon is not only not a real feminist, but he's also not a good songwriter. Certainly no Andrew Lloyd Webber that's for sure. Though of course, Spike's songs stood out because they' contain more of the rock music element than the other numbers.

Having said that, while I didn't particularly dig the music itself, the episode did win me over by the second-half. The storytelling was pretty solid by that point, with Tara finally learning the horrible mind-rape Willow did on her (let's face it: she violated her memory, spin it however you like). And ho boy, that next episode, Tabula Rasa is going to be juicy.

Spoiler

Willow finally shows her true selfish nature by going full mind-control.

I mean, I could understand why she's acting like that - magic being her addiction, and I personally have faced addiction before to know it's a tough habit to kick - but man, it's so hard to sympathize with her in spite of my own experience. It's one thing to inject yourself with drugs, but it's another thing to literally mess with someone's memories for your own convenience. As the next episode promo narrator has said, The next episode's gonna be the one that changes everything, specifically my impression of how much I would hate or love to hate Willow for the rest of the season, possibly series depending on how it all ends. Willow's always been self-entitled, to be honest, but this takes to a whole new level.

And Buffy, poor ol' Buffy finally revealing the truth that Willow's a selfish bitch who stole her from heaven, leaving her feeling existentially empty as she sees life as a empty, hollow husk that would end eventually. Boy, did this turn out good. Let's amp up the existential crisis! I love stories that deal with existential crisis and existential nihilism. Can't wait for Buffy to tell Willow how she really feels. Obviously, she's growing more detached from normal life with every episode, going to Spike as a getaway drug to make herself numb. She's depressed by living itself, which is such a bleak and yet delicious storyline. I can see now why people hated this season for all the bleakness and gloom... but not me. I think I'm starting to adjust to all the darkness.

One last thing. I love Dawn's throwback line to the season 5 finale (still my favorite Buffy finale so far): "The hardest thing in this world is to live in it." All the feels. So great. Buffy's now in the position of Dawn, cursed with life.

Edited March 12, 2021 by MagnusHex

[Halting Hex]

On 3/12/2021 at 7:25 AM, MagnusHex said:

Willow's always been self-entitled, to be honest

Really? How?

On 3/12/2021 at 7:25 AM, MagnusHex said:

Willow's a selfish bitch who stole her from heaven

Or, you know, risked her life and her soul to save Buffy (who jumped into a portal of HELL-dimensions) from eternal torment, centuries for every year on our plane (as Willow knows from what happened to Angel) and is now getting shit on in the narrative so the show can fluff unrepentant mass-murderers such as Spike and Anya, instead.

BTW, I guess Joyce didn't qualify for "Heeeeeeeeeeeaven"?  Sucks to be you, Mom, I suppose.

[MagnusHex]

8 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Really? How?

She's been an insecure and needy little girl throughout the entire series. It's sympathetic, but still nonetheless self-entitled. It didn't become irritating until some time around season 5, when Willow believed her magic made her superior over others.

 

8 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Or, you know, risked her life and her soul to save Buffy (who jumped into a portal of HELL-dimensions) from eternal torment, centuries for every year on our plane (as Willow knows from what happened to Angel) and is now getting shit on in the narrative so the show can fluff unrepentant mass-murderers such as Spike and Anya, instead.

Ignorance is no excuse. Messing with supernatural forces of afterlife comes with obvious consequences one should consider, but Willow didn't even consider the possibility that there would be any consequences that might affect Buffy's mental or physical well-being, or whether if Buffy isn't meant to be resurrected. She just chose the quickest and most convenient option. It's irresponsible at best and selfish at worst.

[lembergwatcher]

4 hours ago, MagnusHex said:

She's been an insecure and needy little girl throughout the entire series. It's sympathetic, but still nonetheless self-entitled. It didn't become irritating until some time around season 5, when Willow believed her magic made her superior over others.

She's also been smart, caring, optimistic & kind-hearted 🙂 And tried to do her best to make her friends happy. As for season 5 I don't remember any particular cases of Willow's alleged "superiority complex" stemming from her magic. I hope you don't mean, say, Willow quickly forgiving Tara her lies and betrayal considering the supposed demonhood?

5 hours ago, MagnusHex said:

Ignorance is no excuse. Messing with supernatural forces of afterlife comes with obvious consequences one should consider, but Willow didn't even consider the possibility that there would be any consequences that might affect Buffy's mental or physical well-being, or whether if Buffy isn't meant to be resurrected. She just chose the quickest and most convenient option. It's irresponsible at best and selfish at worst.

Ignorance is no excuse - true. And, yes, Willow should have weighed all pros and cons before making her final decision to ressurect Buffy. I just don't understand all those accusations of "selfishness". What was in it (Buffy's ressurection) for Willow? What were the benefits? She didn't need Buffy to do the "dirty job" since the gang was quite capable of taking care of the Hellmouth during Buffy's time in other dimensions. And Willow was much stronger and more powerful than Buffy. 

In fact, Willow was one of the most selfless characters in the entire Buffyverse. Too selfless sometimes, I'd say... 

[Halting Hex]

12 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

As for season 5 I don't remember any particular cases of Willow's alleged "superiority complex" stemming from her magic.

Now, now, let's not whitewash.  We can't forget Willow's unfair insults of people who employ flashlights when Will has this cool "Fiat Luxe!" spell.  Egomania run rampant, obviously.

(Of course, any S5-based personality changes may also stem from the Monks of Mindfuck wishing to reorient Buffy's attachment and protective nature away from Willow, for whom she chose to give up her popularity and her "no slaying!" vow and eventually her life, in favor the Key-come-lately pile of green energy the Monks put in Willow's place, so I don't think we should judge them as indicative of the whole, anyhow.  But still.  The United Flashlight Manufacturers were very hurt by Willow's callous dismissal, no doubt.)

18 hours ago, MagnusHex said:

She just chose the quickest and most convenient option.

"Quickest" took the entire summer and required a planet-wide search for the ingredients;  "most-convenient" involved Willow having her body be made an instrument of the gods, puking up snakes, and nearly being torn apart.  Interesting definitions, IMO.

And anyway, Willow is ultimately being judged here for not knowing things she couldn't have known.  How much longer (with Buffy possibly in constant hellish suffering, remember) was she supposed to spend noodling about unknowable hypotheticals, exactly?

[Halting Hex]

So, I haven't much been catching random episodes on FUSE now that I've built my collection in my DVR (that Doomed episode is getting a surprising amount of plays), but I just checked the schedule and this one is starting right exactly now.

Not really sure I have the stomach to even try to get through it, tbh.  And not just because it's the edited version, either.  That Judas Priest concert on the next channel (AXS) is looking pretty good.

(And hey, two hours from now, when the concert is over, Smashed  is on. 

Spoiler

I wouldn't save that one, but it might be worth seeing a few favorite scenes, like pretty much all of Amy's.  Everything else can get FFed, though.  As much as I enjoy "You know when I kissed you, I was thinking about Giles, right?"  I don't need to actually see Scrawny McBitchboy.  And the damn kiss is probably all over the "Previously…", too.

Actually, I could just go to bed.

.  Hmm.)

ETA:  Shouldn't the gang really already be researching before Buffy shows up?  I mean "on the 'we live on a Hellmouth' side of things" * , you'd think that one of the witches would be able to recognize that something magical was afoot.  Or even that Xander might really recognize that "It could be Watcher-time" * . And I really don't believe that Giles would just note "the synchronized dancing by the room-service chaps and the huge backing orchestra I couldn't see" and not believe there was something that merits investigating.  These people are supposed to be skilled professionals, not victims of Sunnydale Denial Syndrome who need Ms. Buffy to tell them that "something's up, I can just tell. My Spider-Sense is tingling"*  before they catch a clue.

I'd ascribe it to "benefits of a lead character" but this really seems more of a concerted (pun?) effort to make the Scoobs look like dolts so that Buffy has no choice but to turn to Only Spike.  Which, vomit.

(The Judas Priest concert hit another advert, so I flipped back here.  Spike was singing. And bam! Back I went, just hit "pause" until the ads are over with.  It's called self-defense, I say.)

*-it's really remarkable how these relatively minor lines of dialogue (from Monster-of-the-Week eps [Killed by Death, Where the Wild Things Are, I Robot You Jane, respectively] that aren't particularly esteemed) all flow so perfectly, fitting the characters and the show in general.

Wish I could say that about this shit.  Where did my show go, seriously?  Sigh.

Edited May 24, 2023 by Halting Hex

[Halting Hex]

On 10/11/2018 at 5:47 PM, Jack Shaftoe said:

But nah, people burn to death and [Xander] doesn't care.

Really, NB should have quit the show right there. 

(I could be half-convinced that was actually Joss's Evil Plan.)

[lembergwatcher]

Now I imagine Spike trying to sing Judas Priest's songs while sitting in his crypt. Can't blame... him, 'cos Spikey has probably got sick of steady Sex Pistols/Ramones diet.

6 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Where did my show go, seriously?

The movies' or TV series' characters are only as smart as the people writing them. Maybe that wasn't the case with post-season 2 Team Whedon. Maybe Whedon's and his "comrades'" egos grew out of all proportion so they started believing they were infallible. Or maybe they just didn't care?..

5 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Really, NB should have quit the show right there.

Unfortunately he stayed and promoted this shit with a straight face. All of them did.

As for "Joss's Evil Plan"... isn't it kinda easier to just fire the actor you do not like rather than screwing his character beyond repair and the entire show for that matter? Joss couldn't have been that petty to flush his own series down the toilet because he had some beef with some actor...

Spoiler

Oh, wait a minute... Charisma Carpenter surely has a lot to say about Joss' attitude...

 

[Halting Hex]

Quote

(We see Willow whispering in Tara's ear.)

TARA: (loudly) Tha-That's right! The, the volume. The text.

GILES: What text?

WILLOW: The volume-y text. You know? The, the (mumbles) report.

XANDER: The what now?

You know, as much as "Willow blows off research for a nooner" always frosts my cupcakes (see upthread), I think I'm even more offended that they can't have her think up a good lie.  You can't tell me that Ms. Rosenberg doesn't know exactly which mystical volumes she has at home and how to create a credible pretext for an exit.

Something like:

Quote

(Willow gets a devious look in her eyes.)

WILLOW (faux-realization):  Ooh!  Ooh!

BUFFY (confused):  Ooh?

XANDER: Eh?

WILLOW:  I think I've got it!

ANYA:  Meh.

GILES: Oh?

WILLOW:  Giles, remember how Baron von Argle-Bargle postulated that the rhythm of an incantation was as important as the words?  Well, what it the singing is a demon trying to compel certain tones in order to unleash a major spell?

GILES (dubious):  That hardly seems likely—

WILLOW (standing up, bulldozing):  I've got Plotpoint's Omnibus Gibberish at home; I think there's something relevant in there. I'm gonna go check.

GILES (still skeptical):  If you think so, but—

(Willow grabs Tara's hand, tugs on it)

WILLOW:  Come on, you can help me.  And we'll get something to eat before we head back.

TARA: I-I, m-maybe I sh-should stay h-here?

(Willow grabs harder, tugs more firmly.  She looks pointedly at Tara.)

WILLOW:  No, you need to eat.  Now.

(Tara gets it, stands up)

TARA:  Oh, y-yes.  I-I'm h-hungry.  B-b-bye!
(They leave hastily, still holding hands.)

DAWN (confused):  Isn't Tara on a diet?  Weird.

But apparently "musical comedy" requires the characters to act like idiots.  Huh.

Spoiler

Now if they could just explain the idiocy in non-musical episodes.  Amy's stealing the sage is only three episodes away, remember.

 

Edited May 25, 2023 by Halting Hex