S05.E10: Into the Woods

[Joe Hellandback]

The Good; Buffy killing the 7 vamps is awesome, Xander's speech to Anya at the end is wonderful. Love Buffy's run to the chopper but do we really want her to make it?

The Bad; Who's right and wrong in the Riley/Buffy argument? Riley cheats on Buffy but through no fault of her own she's been driving him away for a long time. In the end Riley's departure has a sense of relief about it.

Best line; Anya (in a perfect impression of Willow) "I dislike that Anya. She's newly human and strangely literal"

Women good/men bad; Who wins the gender war here?

Kinky dinky; Dawn refers to Buffy and Riley 'boinking'. Apparently Giles used to frequent vamp brothels in his Ripper days (hence the Draccy babes?). Xander and Anya have apparently used the vaulting horse in Buffy's training room for sexual adventures. Buffy suggests giving Joyce a wig that would make her look like a French Maid? Sure Xander would like that! Spike asks Buffy if she's naked under the sheet. Anya bathes Xander in a 'Penthousey' sort of way.

Captain Subtext; Psychologists say that new mothers tend to lose interest in sex partly because of the exhaustion and trauma of giving birth but also because they get much of the physical and emotional affection they crave from their babies. When you look at Buffy at the hospital with Dawn in her lap and Riley sitting to one side you wonder if something similar was an aggravating factor in their breakup, that Buffy didn't need Riley so much anymore because she had Dawn? The army captain says to Riley that his organisation 'always need bodies'. Riley catches on to Spike's obsession a long time before anyone else. Xander and Giles seem reluctant to hug at the hospital. Even now Spike realises that he doesn't have a shot with Buffy, foreshadowing

Spoiler

Angel season 5.

Apocalypses; 5,

Scoobies in bondage: Buffy: 8 Giles: 4 Cordy: 5 Will: 3 Jenny: 1 Angel: 4 Oz: 1 Faith: 3 Joyce: 1 Wes: 1 Xander; 1 Dawn; 1

Scoobies knocked out: Buffy: 15 Giles: 10 Cordy: 6 Xander: 8 Will: 5 Jenny: 2 Angel: 6 Oz: 3 Faith: 1 Joyce: 3 Wes: 1 Anya;1

Kills: Buffy effortlessly kills 7 vamps, you realise how far she's come as a Slayer. Buffy: 93 vamps, 32 demons, 6 monsters, 3 humans, 1 werewolf, 1 spirit warrior & a robot Giles: 5 vamps, 1 demon Cordy: 3 vamps, a demon Will: 6 vamps Angel: 3 vamps, 1 demon, 1 human Oz: 3 vamps, 1 zombie Faith: 16 vamps, 5 demons, 3 humans Xander: 5 vamps, 2 zombies, a demon, a demon Anya: a demon Riley; 18 vamps + 7 demons

Scoobies go evil: Giles: 1 Cordy: 1 Will: 2 Jenny: 1 Angel: 1 Oz: 1 Joyce: 1 Xander: 3

Alternate scoobies: Buffy: 6 Giles: 3 Cordy: 1 Will: 2 Jenny: 2 Angel: 3 Oz: 2 Joyce: 2 Xander: 3

Recurring characters killed: 9 Jesse, Flutie, Jenny, Kendra, Larry, Snyder, Professor Walsh, Forrest, McNamara

Sunnydale deaths; 89;

Total number of scoobies: 7 Giles, Xander, Willow, Buffy, Anya, Tara, Riley

Xander demon magnet: 5(6?) Preying Mantis Lady, Inca Mummy Girl, Drusilla, VampWillow, Anya (arguably Buffy & Faith with their demon essences?), Dracula?

Scoobies shot: Giles: 2 Angel: 3 Oz: 4 Riley; 1

Notches on Scooby bedpost: Giles: 2; Joyce & Olivia, possibly Jenny and 3xDraccy babes? Cordy: 1? Buffy: 3 confirmed; Angel, Parker,Riley, 1 possible, Dracula(?) Angel: 1;Buffy Joyce: 1;Giles, 2 possible, Ted and Dracula(?) Oz: 3; Groupie, Willow & Verucca Faith:2 ;Xander, Riley Xander: 2; Faith, Anya Willow: 2;Oz and Tara Riley; 3; Buffy, Sandy and unknown vampwhore

Questions and observations; If we're to believe Dawn's chopstick story then she always knew about Buffy being the Slayer which is confirmed in the comics. Spuffers must have been choking on their cornflakes at the fake staking Spike scene.

So Buffy and Riley? Could it ever have worked? Well, maybe post-Chosen but not then I think, Riley makes the right decision.

Marks out of 10; 8/10

[lembergwatcher]

You mean, INTO THE WOODS? Listening to Fear is 9th, not 10th episode.

[lembergwatcher]

Well, what can I say? I sincerely loathe that episode with every fiber of my being. I couldn't stand those crappy excuses for a plot developments back then and I sure as hell can't stand them now (even if you call me biased). The writers did everything in their power to perform character assassination on Riley Finn and create the desperately needed prerequisites for him to move out of Sunnydale and thereby walk away from Buffy's life. Good job, dear writers. Step aside, soldier boy. It's time for a real gentleman (with bleached blonde hair, bloodlust and stalking behavior) to take the place (not immediately, of course, 

Spoiler

there'll be some resistance on Buffy's part, but who the hell can avoid the inevitable?? The clock started ticking anyway and the anal sex on the upper lounge was just a matter of time.

Spoiler

Because the Spikettes or Spuffy fans were the only ones that mattered from then on, you know (Buffy and Spike, they were destined to be together after all, screw everything else!)... Did Buffy really need the freakin' "monster in her man", as some obsessed blonde guy tried to convince all of us? You tell me.

Turning Riley into unstable suicidal fool in Out of My Mind apparently wasn't enough for the series' writers, so they decided to present him all of a sudden as the new King of Cretins and a pathetic junkie (or kinky sex addict). Because goin' to those ugly vamp hos for another bloodsucking session (a metaphor for blow job, I guess? Those Buffy writers, they had a thing for metaphors...) after spending the night with the gorgeous woman you love so much is soooo believable and not OOC, not in the slightest. Or having sex while listening to some sob pop ballad was too much for our military man, who knows.

And of course, that Spikey kid. Right place at right time, just like always... Meet the series' worst Machiavellian type... Richard Wilkins III must be rolling in his "grave"... OTOH what if that kind of life anywhere but Sunnydale (the demon hunter fighting the monstrous population in the jungle of Central America) was eventually Riley's true calling, his destiny and what he really needed to feel complete (instead of being Buffy's lapdog or something)? The possibilities are endless after all (but Spike sucks anyway).

Everything got even "better" when Riley entered creep's crypt (creep's crypt? Sounds good to me) carrying... what?.. plastic stake? Plastic stake??? Really? Another opportunity to save everyone the Spike's sorry existence turning into ...civil conversation with occasional drinking... How could Riley survive doing his job for all this years, having such petty intellectual abilities? Once again, you tell me.

I really do understand Buffy's feelings on the matter and appreciate her allowing W, X and G to participate in the raid on that seedy vampiric brothel. Then there was that "blackmailing Buffy" attempt scene (B/R soap opera-styled exchange) in the Magic Box training room (I have neither time nor desire to get into that stuff or sort out who was right and who was wrong/who was a bigger asshole, so forgive me). Eventually it ended up with "Good riddance, Mr. Finn, and thank you for your service"... Do I sympathize with Buffy the moments before and after the helicopter carrying her Corn-fed Iowa Boy took off and flew over night Sunnydale? Yes, of course. But only a little.

Although I have always been quite positive both about Riley and his relationship with Buffy, Xander in the role of a self-proclaimed B/R relationship councelor looked rather irritating and OOC to some extent IMO (since when was Xander even allowed to speak when it came to all the loves of Buffy's life?). Mind your own business, Xander. It's Willow's job (and where was that redhead anyway?) to be Buffy's cheerleader, support-o-gal and advisor on all things relationship-related. Groping sessions in the SHS janitor closet and boinking ex-demon do not make someone an expert on love and relationships, you know... 

Spoiler

Though I must say Buffy's "They have a miraculous love!" regarding Xanya disgrace in the following Triangle ep was even more pathetic.

What I really do like about Xander in this particular ep is him putting (albeit softly) his annoying "girfriend" in her place after she started bashing Willow for whatever reason.

The less is said about Xanya the better. 'Cause Into the Woods is one of those eps I always cite as a reason for hating this horrible couple (and for hating Joss and the rest for what they did to Xander throughout the series in general). Whether it was something unlikable about Emma's appearance or simply because her character was that unrepentant sadistic killer and a hellbitch, but whenever the topic of X/A sex life was raised I wanted literally to throw up. Throughout the duration of X/A "romance" I just dreamed and dreamed and dreamed about some rogue demon hunter entering ol' SunnyD to spare Xander, the Scoobs and the rest of us that Anya-shaped horror. And the ep's final moment (after Riley's departure) when the Deadest Man in Deadonia tried to profess his love for the former demon? Man, I couldn't decide whether to laugh and cry hysterically or start breaking things... The short and simple "I love you" said in Becoming, Part 2 had 10,000 times more sincerity, emotion and actual feeling than the whole damn monologue addressed to a mass murderer. I literally wanted to give Xander a slap and scream into his ear: "Do you even fucking hear yourself??? Are you fucking insane??? She's the monster!!! Which part of "she's a monster" don't you understand??? Bad, Xander, very, very, very bad"... 

Spoiler

The whole freaking wedding proposal misadventure was slowly creeping around...

Overall

Spoiler

the clear foreshadowing of a horror that was yet to come...

Sigh...

3/10 will probably be my verdict.

[Jack Shaftoe]

Can I just say how dumb the entire concept of "vamp hos" is? Of the not so many people who even know about the existence of vampires there are enough morons whose kink is to get their blood sucked? And enough vampires with the self control to not kill their customers? Sure, sure. Giles tries to explain that killing people is considered too dangerous by some vampires, but come on, even Harmony managed to survive and they are supposed to enjoy it very much.

There is also the plastic stake scene, one of the most ridiculous things I have ever seen on TV.

[Joe Hellandback]

17 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Can I just say how dumb the entire concept of "vamp hos" is? Of the not so many people who even know about the existence of vampires there are enough morons whose kink is to get their blood sucked? And enough vampires with the self control to not kill their customers? Sure, sure. Giles tries to explain that killing people is considered too dangerous by some vampires, but come on, even Harmony managed to survive and they are supposed to enjoy it very much.

There is also the plastic stake scene, one of the most ridiculous things I have ever seen on TV.

I totally buy it, think of all the crazy fetishes people have in the world. Makes perfect sense for the vamps, they get blood and money and don't have the Slayer or the Watcher's council coming after them. And as we see from Sandy the degree of evil varies in vamps, those who aren't necessarily great predators might prefer seduction. 

[Joe Hellandback]

19 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

Well, what can I say? I sincerely loathe that episode with every fiber of my being. I couldn't stand those crappy excuses for a plot developments back then and I sure as hell can't stand them now (even if you call me biased). The writers did everything in their power to perform character assassination on Riley Finn and create the desperately needed prerequisites for him to move out of Sunnydale and thereby walk away from Buffy's life. Good job, dear writers. Step aside, soldier boy. It's time for a real gentleman (with bleached blonde hair, bloodlust and stalking behavior) to take the place (not immediately, of course, 

  Hide contents

there'll be some resistance on Buffy's part, but who the hell can avoid the inevitable?? The clock started ticking anyway and the anal sex on the upper lounge was just a matter of time.

  Hide contents

Because the Spikettes or Spuffy fans were the only ones that mattered from then on, you know (Buffy and Spike, they were destined to be together after all, screw everything else!)... Did Buffy really need the freakin' "monster in her man", as some obsessed blonde guy tried to convince all of us? You tell me.

Turning Riley into unstable suicidal fool in Out of My Mind apparently wasn't enough for the series' writers, so they decided to present him all of a sudden as the new King of Cretins and a pathetic junkie (or kinky sex addict). Because goin' to those ugly vamp hos for another bloodsucking session (a metaphor for blow job, I guess? Those Buffy writers, they had a thing for metaphors...) after spending the night with the gorgeous woman you love so much is soooo believable and not OOC, not in the slightest. Or having sex while listening to some sob pop ballad was too much for our military man, who knows.

And of course, that Spikey kid. Right place at right time, just like always... Meet the series' worst Machiavellian type... Richard Wilkins III must be rolling in his "grave"... OTOH what if that kind of life anywhere but Sunnydale (the demon hunter fighting the monstrous population in the jungle of Central America) was eventually Riley's true calling, his destiny and what he really needed to feel complete (instead of being Buffy's lapdog or something)? The possibilities are endless after all (but Spike sucks anyway).

Everything got even "better" when Riley entered creep's crypt (creep's crypt? Sounds good to me) carrying... what?.. plastic stake? Plastic stake??? Really? Another opportunity to save everyone the Spike's sorry existence turning into ...civil conversation with occasional drinking... How could Riley survive doing his job for all this years, having such petty intellectual abilities? Once again, you tell me.

I really do understand Buffy's feelings on the matter and appreciate her allowing W, X and G to participate in the raid on that seedy vampiric brothel. Then there was that "blackmailing Buffy" attempt scene (B/R soap opera-styled exchange) in the Magic Box training room (I have neither time nor desire to get into that stuff or sort out who was right and who was wrong/who was a bigger asshole, so forgive me). Eventually it ended up with "Good riddance, Mr. Finn, and thank you for your service"... Do I sympathize with Buffy the moments before and after the helicopter carrying her Corn-fed Iowa Boy took off and flew over night Sunnydale? Yes, of course. But only a little.

Although I have always been quite positive both about Riley and his relationship with Buffy, Xander in the role of a self-proclaimed B/R relationship councelor looked rather irritating and OOC to some extent IMO (since when was Xander even allowed to speak when it came to all the loves of Buffy's life?). Mind your own business, Xander. It's Willow's job (and where was that redhead anyway?) to be Buffy's cheerleader, support-o-gal and advisor on all things relationship-related. Groping sessions in the SHS janitor closet and boinking ex-demon do not make someone an expert on love and relationships, you know... 

  Reveal hidden contents

Though I must say Buffy's "They have a miraculous love!" regarding Xanya disgrace in the following Triangle ep was even more pathetic.

What I really do like about Xander in this particular ep is him putting (albeit softly) his annoying "girfriend" in her place after she started bashing Willow for whatever reason.

The less is said about Xanya the better. 'Cause Into the Woods is one of those eps I always cite as a reason for hating this horrible couple (and for hating Joss and the rest for what they did to Xander throughout the series in general). Whether it was something unlikable about Emma's appearance or simply because her character was that unrepentant sadistic killer and a hellbitch, but whenever the topic of X/A sex life was raised I wanted literally to throw up. Throughout the duration of X/A "romance" I just dreamed and dreamed and dreamed about some rogue demon hunter entering ol' SunnyD to spare Xander, the Scoobs and the rest of us that Anya-shaped horror. And the ep's final moment (after Riley's departure) when the Deadest Man in Deadonia tried to profess his love for the former demon? Man, I couldn't decide whether to laugh and cry hysterically or start breaking things... The short and simple "I love you" said in Becoming, Part 2 had 10,000 times more sincerity, emotion and actual feeling than the whole damn monologue addressed to a mass murderer. I literally wanted to give Xander a slap and scream into his ear: "Do you even fucking hear yourself??? Are you fucking insane??? She's the monster!!! Which part of "she's a monster" don't you understand??? Bad, Xander, very, very, very bad"... 

  Reveal hidden contents

The whole freaking wedding proposal misadventure was slowly creeping around...

Overall

  Reveal hidden contents

the clear foreshadowing of a horror that was yet to come...

Sigh...

3/10 will probably be my verdict.

No, I think Riley was right to leave, partly because he never really fitted in to the Buffyverse and his personal reasons were valid, as he said, Buffy doesn't really love him so he can't just hang around living in hope, But they do take far too long to say goodbye. They learn their lesson with

Spoiler

Groo on Angel

 You look at all the guys who are caught out in such situations (Hugh Grant?) and it's perfectly plausible. The plastic stake worked for me, my eyes literally bulged out of my head. Xander is the one who sees, remember? Anyanka was the monster, Anya is struggling to find her place in the world. 

[lembergwatcher]

1 hour ago, Joe Hellandback said:

No, I think Riley was right to leave, partly because he never really fitted in to the Buffyverse and his personal reasons were valid, as he said, Buffy doesn't really love him so he can't just hang around living in hope

Maybe, but it's a matter of opinion. I, for my part, think Spike was the one who totally didn't belong in the Scooby Gang. And the fact that Buffy didn't love Riley wasn't enough to get Riley off the show IMO, since he still could help the Scoobs fight the good fight, Buffy or no Buffy.

 

1 hour ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Xander is the one who sees, remember?

Xander could be the one to see, sure. What gave him reason to believe Buffy would care about his opinion (the Angel/Angelus affair proved she didn't)?

[Joe Hellandback]

23 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

Maybe, but it's a matter of opinion. I, for my part, think Spike was the one who totally didn't belong in the Scooby Gang. And the fact that Buffy didn't love Riley wasn't enough to get Riley off the show IMO, since he still could help the Scoobs fight the good fight, Buffy or no Buffy.

 

Xander could be the one to see, sure. What gave him reason to believe Buffy would care about his opinion (the Angel/Angelus affair proved she didn't)?

Actually Spike did fit in, they were a bunch of dispirit characters and Spike was one more oddity in a group of oddities. What would Riley have done on the show if he didn't have Buffy?

Because Xander is Riley's friend and Buffy's best male friend. 

[lembergwatcher]

2 hours ago, nosleepforme said:

As for Riley, he was bland, boring and played out, and he had to go and he had a legit reason to leave.

I wouldn't mind Riley leaving for good either, if Spike was turned to dust in the process. As for "he had to go" claim, I dare to ask why did he have to leave? 

Spoiler

Because he was the only obstacle to Spuffy madness that was soon to follow?

  Then again Spike had 1,000 times more legitimate reasons not only to leave Sunnydale but to be wiped out from the face of the earth IMO. Unfortunately it was Riley turning out to be the one who didn't deserve a second chance, 'cause in the Buffyverse only cold blooded murderers like Spike could have one.

 

2 hours ago, nosleepforme said:

There was no value in keeping him and his military bullshit

And Spike together with his much more annoying bullshit was such a valuable replacement? Sometimes it seems like almost everyone from Joss and fans to Buffy herself treated Spikey the way Gollum treated his "precious". Of course Riley couldn't compete. Hell, even the Scoobs couldn't.

Edited September 26, 2018 by lembergwatcher

[lembergwatcher]

3 hours ago, nosleepforme said:

And whether you like Spike or not, you have to admit that  Spike is just a more entertaining and more interesting character, played by a more charismatic actor

I would only agree with "more charismatic actor". Entertaining? Well, Spike getting his ass kicked time after time was quite an entertaining thing to watch.

Spoiler

Although being entertaining sometimes alone wasn't enough to give him that amount of screen time, eventually sidelining all other major characters.

Interesting? I myself do not find anything even remotely interesting about his constant stalking, posing, shit talking and annoying everyone else. I thought it was Anya's purpose to act like a bad copy of Cordelia. Apparently one extremely irritating character wasn't enough,

Spoiler

therefore they decided to bring in another one and leave him for the remainder of the series.

I share the opinion that Riley was way less charismatic than Spoik. But he wasn't rotten sick murderous SOB with perverted intentions either.

Spoiler

It would be highly unlikely for Riley to become the main factor of Buffy's degradation trip in the forthcoming seasons. And I doubt his character staying at the show would make Buffy go down the drain the way Spike's constantly being around did.

[Jack Shaftoe]

4 hours ago, nosleepforme said:

He had to leave, because he never really fit into the group and didn't bring anything of value to the group dynamic or to the storylines.

He fit far better than Spike (or Anya for that matter) did. Spike's very survival, let alone integration into the group, depended on the Scoobs being grossly OOC. Even if Spike were the most interesting character in the history of fiction this wouldn't have made up for the character assassination of everyone else, IMO. 

Spoiler

And Spike was just another bad boy with a half-baked redemption story anyway. A story which made a mess out of the vampire mythos to boot.

I don't care how good an actor is, if their character has no place in the story, then they shouldn't be in the story. And let's face it, Marsters can chew scenery with the best (worst) of them. A great actor he is not.

Spoiler

Nor did Spike's supposed great popularity among fans made the show significantly better ratings-wise, so in the end all that pandering was for naught.

Quote

They had to work really hard to incorporate him into the show

They had to... but they never bothered to even try. This episode being one of the best examples - there is no reason whatsoever for Riley to not stake Spike. But no, they just had to draw our attention to this elephant in the room with the plastic stake nonsense. It's like they were deliberately taunting us - "Yes, the guy has plot armor, deal with it, suckers!"

Edited September 27, 2018 by Jack Shaftoe

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎27‎/‎09‎/‎2018 at 7:50 AM, nosleepforme said:

He had to leave, because he never really fit into the group and didn't bring anything of value to the group dynamic or to the storylines. IMO he just wasn't working as a character beyond being the love interest and even that was working modestly at best, since he and Sarah had zero chemistry.

 

His friendship with Xander was sweet and his military background may have been handy, but overall the character was not designed to sustain over a longer period. He had already served his purpose by the end of season four and there wasn't anything in season four or the first half of season 5 that would suggest that there was more to be mined from the character. 

 

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I couldn't care less about Spuffy, I am not a big fan of that relationship, though I do like Spike's incredible monologue to her in Touched, but that's a discussion for later.

 

And whether you like Spike or not, you have to admit that  Spike is just a more entertaining and more interesting character, played by a more charismatic actor (James Marsters I'd argue is definitely in the Top 5 of Buffyverse actors, along with Sarah, Anthony, Alexis and Amy) and by season 5 he had earned his place on the show and found his function on it. In season 4, he did not work at all, but I think by season 5 the writers figured out how to use him. Of course you can argue that Spike had served his purpose in S2 and that it was unnecessary to bring him back, which it kind of was. They had to work really hard to incorporate him into the show and they weren't entirely successful at first, something that James Marsters himself has acknowledged many times, but if you have a character/actor that pops like Spike did, it's reasonable to try to get more out of that character.

 

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Then by season 6, they started depending on him far too much and season 7 was sadly the Spike show, but even as I was annoyed by the overexposure of Spike later on, from beginning to end, he was infinitely more interesting to watch than Riley Finn.

Yeah, Graham called it right and said what we were all thinking. Spike is more interesting and entertaining, you don't have to like him to appreciate him. 

On ‎27‎/‎09‎/‎2018 at 12:09 PM, Jack Shaftoe said:

He fit far better than Spike (or Anya for that matter) did. Spike's very survival, let alone integration into the group, depended on the Scoobs being grossly OOC. Even if Spike were the most interesting character in the history of fiction this wouldn't have made up for the character assassination of everyone else, IMO. 

  Hide contents

And Spike was just another bad boy with a half-baked redemption story anyway. A story which made a mess out of the vampire mythos to boot.

I don't care how good an actor is, if their character has no place in the story, then they shouldn't be in the story. And let's face it, Marsters can chew scenery with the best (worst) of them. A great actor he is not.

  Hide contents

Nor did Spike's supposed great popularity among fans made the show significantly better ratings-wise, so in the end all that pandering was for naught.

They had to... but they never bothered to even try. This episode being one of the best examples - there is no reason whatsoever for Riley to not stake Spike. But no, they just had to draw our attention to this elephant in the room with the plastic stake nonsense. It's like they were deliberately taunting us - "Yes, the guy has plot armor, deal with it, suckers!"

Spike was hugely popular and maybe kept the ratings up, he's also one of the reasons that 

Spoiler

Angel could slash its' budget yet increase its' ratings for s5. 

[Halting Hex]

Such an epically stupid episode.

Most of what I have to say has been covered already, but I do want to point out that the "plastic wood-grain" stake is not only just there to give the Spikettes a cheap scare, it's also there because there had been false reports of James leaving the series circulating, and the show was enjoying fucking with the fans more than trying to make a credible story.  

Spoiler

(As we will later see with the "numbered-shirt" bullshit, the gratuitous insult to the audience that was the Trio, and the assinine "Is Giles the First?" non-plot.)

So in order to get their desired effect outside the story, Marti crafted an episode where either

a) Riley has been carrying around a plastic stake for god-knows-how-long, for no apparent reason, or…

b) Riley's so full of anger and vengeance that…he stops off en route to Spike's at the local novelty shop to buy the plastic stake, just so he can prank Spike, rather than, say, beating the shit out of him.  Yeah, surrrre.

And it's so unnecessary.  We've already had numerous examples (Passion, Graduation Day Part 1, Somnambulist) of people staking or shooting arrows into vampires without the intent of killing them, immediately.  Just have Riley stake Spike in the stomach or the shoulder.  No wood-grain needed.

I mean, even Shan, who'd been practically doing a victory dance at the thought of Riley possibly leaving town, let out a (predictable) shriek at the "staking" and then after the reveal on the "plastic" stake, she paused the episode, took a long pause, and gave a very good impression of somebody having a migraine from all the stupidity.  When even your target audience thinks the plot is too dumb for words…

And then there's the whole "vamp-ho nest" concept.  So, apparently Giles has been letting this flourish, right under his nose, for Joss knows how long?  And Buffy never happened to be close enough to the nest for her vamp-dar to kick in?  Bull and shit, to be quite honest. Such hack writing.

And in the other corner of town, we have the plot "development" that nobody saw coming, for obvious reasons.  As Oceana parodied in her famous "Season 5 in 1000 words or Less" (or whatever it was called), we get this bit of unearned advancement:

Quote

XANDER: And I am sincerely in love with Anya!

AUDIENCE:  Really??? Er, that's nice, we guess.

Because honestly, come on.

Edited November 27, 2018 by Halting Hex

[Halting Hex]

And I see I skipped the triple-contrivance that is the "climax":

1) Riley gets the chance to go wipe out demon-infested Belize at the exact same moment when he and Buffy are having troubles, leading to his being accused of giving her an ultimatum.  (Which I guess, technically, but still.)  No sulking around his apartment until she's ready to talk, nope, can't have a natural plot development here.

2)  Buffy jussssssst misses Riley at the helipad.  If Xander had said "run" 30 seconds earlier, if he'd loaned her his car keys, if she hadn't taken their convo on the tangent about him and Anya, if 1000 different things, she'd have made it there in time.  But noooooo.  So dramatic, so heartbreaking…such bullshit.

3) Riley, who was watching to see if Buffy was coming as the helicopter was starting up (because Marti wants to fake us out at that point, with the romantic music swelling and all), doesn't look out of the helicopter even once when Buffy is actually there and calling his name. (Even Shan, who didn't exactly mind his going, was calling bullshit there.)  Either Riley is looking for Buffy, or he isn't.  Make up your damn mind, Marti.

Sigh.

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎26‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 9:48 PM, Halting Hex said:

Such an epically stupid episode.

Most of what I have to say has been covered already, but I do want to point out that the "plastic wood-grain" stake is not only just there to give the Spikettes a cheap scare, it's also there because there had been false reports of James leaving the series circulating, and the show was enjoying fucking with the fans more than trying to make a credible story.  

  Hide contents

(As we will later see with the "numbered-shirt" bullshit, the gratuitous insult to the audience that was the Trio, and the assinine "Is Giles the First?" non-plot.)

So in order to get their desired effect outside the story, Marti crafted an episode where either

a) Riley has been carrying around a plastic stake for god-knows-how-long, for no apparent reason, or…

b) Riley's so full of anger and vengeance that…he stops off en route to Spike's at the local novelty shop to buy the plastic stake, just so he can prank Spike, rather than, say, beating the shit out of him.  Yeah, surrrre.

And it's so unnecessary.  We've already had numerous examples (Passion, Graduation Day Part 1, Somnambulist) of people staking or shooting arrows into vampires without the intent of killing them, immediately.  Just have Riley stake Spike in the stomach or the shoulder.  No wood-grain needed.

I mean, even Shan, who'd been practically doing a victory dance at the thought of Riley possibly leaving town, let out a (predictable) shriek at the "staking" and then after the reveal on the "plastic" stake, she paused the episode, took a long pause, and gave a very good impression of somebody having a migraine from all the stupidity.  When even your target audience thinks the plot is too dumb for words…

And then there's the whole "vamp-ho nest" concept.  So, apparently Giles has been letting this flourish, right under his nose, for Joss knows how long?  And Buffy never happened to be close enough to the nest for her vamp-dar to kick in?  Bull and shit, to be quite honest. Such hack writing.

And in the other corner of town, we have the plot "development" that nobody saw coming, for obvious reasons.  As Oceana parodied in her famous "Season 5 in 1000 words or Less" (or whatever it was called), we get this bit of unearned advancement:

Because honestly, come on.

I think you're looking too deeply into this, Riley wants to know the truth from Spike and this is his opening bid. As for the vamp Brothel there's so much going on in Sunnydale it's hardly any wonder it doesn't register, no victims, no one is complaining, other more important things going on. Who knows, maybe the vamp nest Faith found in Bad Girls was a gay vamp bordello? 

[Halting Hex]

Again, why did Riley have the plastic stake to begin with, or why would he stop to buy one?  If he merely wanted to scare Spike, he had legitimate stakes (or Spike's own torches) to threaten him with.  And really, nothing says "interrogation" like a fist in the face, anyhow.

I mean, Buffy's been doing it so often that Spike's starting to think she's flirting with him, FFS.

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎04‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 2:42 PM, Halting Hex said:

Again, why did Riley have the plastic stake to begin with, or why would he stop to buy one?  If he merely wanted to scare Spike, he had legitimate stakes (or Spike's own torches) to threaten him with.  And really, nothing says "interrogation" like a fist in the face, anyhow.

I mean, Buffy's been doing it so often that Spike's starting to think she's flirting with him, FFS.

A cynic would say it was to scare the Spuffers?

[lembergwatcher]

I think I got it.

I mean, why they chose Xander of all people to deliver the "you should do whatever it takes to fix things with Riley" message. Because since when did he become Buffy's relationship counselor? And what exactly gave the Zeppo boy reasons to believe Buffy would spend a microsecond listening to him, let alone follow his advise? After DMP and Revelations Xander and Buffy had very few one-on-one conversations throughout seasons 3 & 4. Being Buffy's best friend and giving the Slayer occasional advice regarding her love life was Willow's prerogative.

Spoiler

The writers probably remembered Xander was Buffy's friend too and thus gave us some Buffy/Xander moments throughout the fifth season. While season 3 was the pinnacle for Buffy/Willow friendship, season 5 turned out to be the swan song for Buffy/Xander.

OTOH given that almost everyone viewed Corn-fed Iowa Boy as the "Worst Boyfriend Ever" and wanted him to leave

Spoiler

(just to pave the way for someone who could give Buffy what everybody thought she needed - "some monster in her man"),

it was no coincidence the task of trying to animate the corpse of Buffy/Riley relationship (which started to slowly die probably after the Enjoining spell) fell upon the Deadest Man in Deadonia. Who better than a Whipping Boy Raised by Mongrels and Set on a Sacrificial Stone can waste his (and the audience's) time for something that was initially intended to be an exercise in futility? That couldn't be Willow, of course, because her role was to root for "cool" types like Angel, not some puny humans like Captain Cardboard. Which is quite odd I must say, since Willow was Riley's friend just as Xander. But, like I said, Marti chose the Least Favorite Character to do a thankless job of being the Least Favorite Boyfriend's advocate (i.e. trying to preserve the only normal relationship Buffy ever had). Therefore they spared Willow a fruitless attempt to save something that couldn't be saved 

Spoiler

(Willow was still Buffy fanboys' and Whedonites darling and her "magic junkie" phase was yet to come).

I guess Marti and the rest did have the desired effect: those who disliked Xander had extra reason to dislike him even more while those who did like the White Knight, like myself, were left somewhat confused. 

And, finally, how about some little consistency, dear writers? Either Xander is "the one who sees" or he isn't. You can't portray him as clueless moron 99% of the time post-season 3 and then all of a sudden let him be the one who noticed something the others didn't. Xander's extreme cluelessness was a recurring theme throughout previous episodes. I mean, they liked to emphasize him being ignorant on far too many occasions, be it Willow-Oz-Veruca "love triangle" (Wild at Heart), Angel (Pangs), the depth of Willow's despair (Something Blue), Anya's extreme bitchiness (Hush, The I in Team, Where the Wild Things Are), Jonathan (Superstar), Tara (New Moon Rising, The Yoko Factor, Family), Spike (The Yoko Factor), danger Buffy was facing (No Place Like Home) or Glory's whereabouts (Shadow). There were some very few exceptions (Primeval), but those were the exceptions that prove the rule, right?

Xander turned out to be insightful enough to figure out Buffy and Riley were "imploding" (because Riey himself hinted seven eps earlier). Pity there was no one to imply Willow needed more support and some quality time with her bestest bud earlier in the year. Why was Xander so sure Riley was exactly what Buffy needed at the moment? What did he know about their relationship, anyway? And let us not forget that he appeared to be totally clueless, unable to see 10 feet in that rain, when it came to his hellbitch. Somehow Xander "knew" Riley was the right person for Buffy but totally failed to notice fucking Anya was the wrong person for him (as his stupid pre-coital speech at the end of the ep clearly indicates). 

Then again, maybe that was the initial intention. Some clueless ignorant townie tries to lecture Buffy on love and relationships? What the hell does he know, i.e. how can he possibly be right? Riley sucks! Bad-bad-bad Soldier Boy. Go cry somewhere in the jungle, you loser. Slayer definitely needs some (dusterclad) monster in her man 

Spoiler

(therefore all hail Spuffy!)

Sheesh.

Edited February 6, 2019 by lembergwatcher

[Halting Hex]

7 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

almost everyone viewed Corn-fed Iowa Boy as the "Worst Boyfriend Ever" and wanted him to leave

A bit of an overstatement, IMO; there were still a good chunk of "as Buffy goes, so goes my nation" canon-'shippers, who would support their Slayer, for better or worse.  (Possibly a double-edged sword, arguably, but that would be for the future.)

Yes, the B/R 'shippers were perhaps outnumbered by the still-devoted BAngel faction, but B/R had fanlists and fanfic and archives of their own.  And they may have heard the growing Buffy/Spike fandom at their heels, but at this point Buffy/Giles had been around longer and possibly still even outnumbered the B/S crowd, too.  Claims of universality are IMO a bit of a retcon.

As for why Xander gets to speak the B/R "truth" to Buffy here instead of Willow, two reasons spring to mind.  First, Xander has historically been written as the character most likely to confront Buffy when he thinks the Slayer is wrongheaded.  Not that Willow won't (When She Was Bad, various Big Scooby Fight episodes) but Support-o-Gal takes a little longer to get there, and Riley isn't going to be on that helipad forever, after all.

And secondly, TPTB were still being protective of Willow/Tara at this point.  A newly-non-heterosexual Willow might have caught some flak from some parts of the viewership if she were to start giving Buffy directives about "boy troubles", I'm afraid. But JMO.

(And I guess the third reason is that using Xander in the role gives Buffy a chance to attack/distract by pointing out the problems in Xanya, giving the show a chance to "fix" public perception of that "romance" via Xander's "I'm in love with you" [REALLY?  Sheesh] speech.  Yay?)

Edited February 6, 2019 by Halting Hex

[lembergwatcher]

Funny how Dawn goes from merely suggesting her big sis and Riley not only kiss and hold hands in Real Me ("I bet they have sex!") to mentioning B/R sex as an established fact in this ep ("'Alone time' always translates into 'get Dawn out of the house so we can have loud obnoxious sex.'"). Is it just a writer's flaw (once again) or did Buffy and Riley ask to get Dawnie out of Casa Summers so often between 5.02 and 5.10?

[Halting Hex]

It's been three months.  Even Dawn is capable of catching a clue if you give her 90 days' worth of time.

(Also, Buffy's lying skills have clearly taken a hit.  "I don't want to have Dawn hanging out with Melinda-across-the-street because Melinda's too short."  Umm, yeah.  Whatever, Buff.)

[lembergwatcher]

Here's a thought how a particular moment in this episode should have ended. Btw, is it just me or someone else is also bothered that Spike, who attempted to have his chip removed and kill Buffy not so long ago, still has a free access to Slayer's bedroom??? WTF???

Anyway:

Quote

Cut to: Buffy in bed, asleep, alone. We hear the door open. Buffy wakes up halfway.

BUFFY: (sleepy) Riley?

We see Spike standing by the door.

SPIKE: It's me.

Buffy wakes up fully, sits up holding the sheet to her chest.

BUFFY: Every time you show up like this, you risk all of your parts, you know that?

SPIKE: I wouldn't be here if I didn't have a good reason. As usual, I'm here to help you, and I - are you naked under there?

BUFFY: (rolls her eyes) Get out.

SPIKE: No, I'm serious. I mean, not about the naked part, I mean... (cranes his neck trying to see under the blankets)

BUFFY: Get out or I will drop you out head-first.

Spike lowers his voice, speaks intensely.

SPIKE: I wanna show you something.

BUFFY: (realizing he is serious) What?

SPIKE: You need to see this.

Buffy sighs. Spike drops his pants down...

Spuffy fans would've been euphoric, I guess...

Edited October 21, 2020 by lembergwatcher

[Halting Hex]

Not that this would have been out of character, but if Spike were going to venture something that crude, he'd missed his opportunity earlier on:

Quote

BUFFY: Get out or I will drop you out head-first.

(Spike leans back against the wall, smirking.)

SPIKE:  Oh, really? (cocks head) Come and get me then, luv.

I mean, she is actually naked, right?  Not the best place to make threats, I'd say.

So, dubious motivations aside, I suppose he's actually sincere here.  Huh.

BTW, points to Riley for sending Buffy off to the sleep of the well-satisfied, when he still felt the need for a stroll to the local Ho-use of Vamps himself.   That's dedication to duty, soldier!

Edited October 22, 2020 by Halting Hex

[Halting Hex]

Quote

XANDER (to Anya):  I get excited every time I'm about to see you.

ME:  Stop talking about your penis, Xander!  (Beat). Actually, wait.  It's Anya.  That's probably the only thing she understands.  Never mind.

Also, not only is this a classic case of "telling, not showing", but it's not as though this was a neutral subject where you could put in a surprise revelation.  (Example:  Xander claims not to have a romantic interest in Willow, but he's always had a connection to her and now she's hurt.  Or how we were pretty sure Willow liked boys, what with Oz and Xander, but there was that discussion about VampWillow…). No, this very episode has shown us multiple instances where Anya does nothing except make Xander cringe.  He doesn't even hug her when they get the good news about Joyce, and his attempt to downplay Dawn's "boink" talk don't involve his giving specific reminisces about how he enjoys quiet moments with his demon, or anything such as that.

I more readily believe that Spike thinks he's in love with Buffy than that Xander is "painfully" in love with Anya.  (For one thing, of the two, we've basically established that Spike is the one knows less about relationships, what with a century dating a crazy woman who liked pretty much everyone else [Angel, Giles, various demons] better, and then choosing Harmony as a rebound girl. For another, Fuffy flirted more strongly with Spike than Anya ever did with Xander.) The only "pain" I feel on account of Xanya is the audience's having to sit through this.

(BTW, in the final shot, am I nuts or does it look as if the helicopter is still gaining altitude?  Bro, Buffy already walked all the way home.  If you haven't reached cruising altitude by now, you might want to have your bird checked out.  Just saying.)

Edited June 2, 2022 by Halting Hex