Faith

[lembergwatcher]

Quote

Faith. Her name alone invokes awe. Faith. A set of principles or beliefs upon which you're willing to devote your life. The dark slayer. A lethal combination of beauty, power, and death. For years and years, or - to be more accurate - months, Faith fought on the side of good, terrorizing the evil community. But like so many tragic heroes, Faith was seduced by the lure of the dark side. She wrapped evil around her like a large, evil Mexican serape. She became a cold-blooded killer. Nobody was immune to her trail of destruction.

Forgive me for quoting someone like Andrew (and I have much doubt we can really talk about true "principles or beliefs" in that case), but I guess it's time we say some words regarding Faith Lehane, the Slayer # 2 or the dark slayer. My own attitude towards Buffy's sister Slayer has always been (and always will be) quite controversial. I didn't know what to think about her when she first appeared at the beginning of the third season (I still have trouble getting along with such types in real life), then my attitude changed for the worse when Faith's downward spiral became apparent (though it had never been totally her fault, Giles and Wesley, they got a lot to answer for too. Even Buffy and the Scoobs sucked at some point). I totally hated her for what she did in Buffy's fourth (and Angel's first) season, but became more tolerant of her close to the end of Angel's fourth and Buffy's seventh seasons.


Faith the rebel. Teenage girl saddled with the baggage of problems, the one with the unhappy childhood and issues regarding self-control. Quite a cocky type displaying obvious disturbing tendencies the very first ep we see her character (Faith, Hope and Trick). Despite being clearly unstable and having some rather questionable, immature attitude (her twisted "philosophy" was wholly revealed in Bad Girls), Faith was nevertheless chosen by The Powers That Suck to fight the good fight. She made her own choice to go down the dark road eventually (Consequences, Enemies, Choices) and caused much trouble to Buffy and the others. Then there were Buffy's knife in the gut and the eight months long coma, followed by Miss Lehane's attempt of catching up on "good old" times of death and destruction. Then at a certain point Faith somehow found the strength to do the right thing and tried to redeem herself from past sins. Faith's prison term was interrupted due to Wesley's abrupt decision and the raven haired beauty eventually found herself fighting side-by-side with her former friends/enemies at the place where it all started...


So, what is your opinion about that particular character? Was Faithie some sort of anti-Buffy or was she just more honest than the blonde Slayer, when it came to being chosen? Do you agree with the notion that there have to be different sets of rules and standards for the chosen ones and the common folk (since the Slayers, you know, they carry the weight of the world in a way unheard by most people)? Should the Scoobs have to be more open-minded and accept Faith into the gang unconditionally, despite Buffy's jealousy and their own initial mistrust? Did Richard Wilkins succeed in getting Faith on his side solely because Giles/Wesley sucked as a Watchers, Buffy sucked as a sister Slayer and the Scoobies were bad friends, or was it due to him manipulating and pandering to the girl's ambitions and darker urges? In which way did the Scooby Gang suck more: failing to reach out to Faith and accept her into their ranks or sending her a clear message after refusing to persecute the dark haired Slayer for murdering Allan Finch, nearly murdering Xander and resisting Council's authority (Consequences)?



Did Faith have a legitimate reason to be angry at Buffy over her allegedly "having more" than the dark Slayer had (friends, family, love life, recognition, future)? Do you sympathize with Faith's desire for revenge after Buffy almost killed her at the end of season 3 (though Faith herself had made several attempts to kill Buffy's friends and a boyfriend before the final confrontation)?

 

Was Faith a monster in disguise or just a very insecure, sad and scared little girl, who wanted love and acceptance, but didn't know how to get both (hence the bravado)? Could having a terrible home life be viewed as some sort of justification for Faith's further shortcomings? Do you believe in Faith's sincerity when she decided it was time to pay some price? Was she fully redeemed from your POV?

 

Some unconventional thoughts are welcomed.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 19, 2018 by lembergwatcher

[Loandbehold]

1 hour ago, lembergwatcher said:

So, what is your opinion about that particular character? Was Faithie some sort of anti-Buffy or was she just more honest than the blonde Slayer, when it came to being chosen? Do you agree with the notion that there have to be different sets of rules and standards for the chosen ones and the common folk (since the Slayers, you know, they carry the weight of the world in a way unheard by most people)? Should the Scoobs have to be more open-minded and accept Faith into the gang unconditionally, despite Buffy's jealousy and their own initial mistrust? Did Richard Wilkins succeed in getting Faith on his side solely because Giles/Wesley sucked as a Watchers, Buffy sucked as a sister Slayer and the Scoobies were bad friends, or was it due to him manipulating and pandering to the girl's ambitions and darker urges? In which way did the Scooby Gang suck more: failing to reach out to Faith and accept her into their ranks or sending her a clear message after refusing to persecute the dark haired Slayer for murdering Allan Finch, nearly murdering Xander and resisting Council's authority (Consequences)?

First off, I thought Faith brought a lot more to the show than Kendra. Of course she had more episodes, but the Kendra character was just there to show the Slayer as perfect Watcher's pet. Faith I would call the Alt-Buffy rather than anti-Buffy. She was more similar to Wishverse Buffy - the lone wolf - until the spiral down to the dark side and falling in w/ Mayor Wilkins. 

I believe the Scoobies were accepting of Faith at the beginning, even in the face of Buffy's jealousy. I blame Wesley for a lot of the problems. Not a favorite character of mine on this show. It really wasn't until after the Scoobies learned that Faith tried to pin Finch's murder on Buffy that things began to sour. Then, her choking Xander and hitting and threatening Willow didn't do her any favors as far as the gang was concerned. I disagree w/ Willow when she said that Buffy was a great friend to Faith. Certainly we saw that wasn't always the case. Wilkins definitely gave Faith what she longed for - someone who believed in her, looked out for her, yet also recognized and praised how good she was at her job. 

I like to think that there's plenty of blame to go around in why Faith turned to the dark side.

1 hour ago, lembergwatcher said:

Forgive me for quoting someone like Andrew

You're forgiven. Just don't let it happen again. 

[Melancholy]

I love Faith. Such a great character. She's most responsible for her choices. However, she was a poor teenager, cursed with awesome powers and made responsible for the fate of the world. Meanwhile, she was abandoned and manipulated by all of the adults in her life. She's a sympathetic case. I don't blame the Teen Scoobies for her fall. Faith needed financial help, discipline, and better training and psychological help much more than a gang of pals. The Mayor filled that void  

I partly blame a Watcher for Faith going off the rails- but it's much more Giles than Wesley. IMO, Wesley was unduly blamed while Giles got away with his neglect/outright horrible strategies with Faith. 

Wesley basically just landed in the United States in Bad Girls- the episode where Faith starts stealing stuff and accidentally kills Finch. Now, I don't think Faith's crimes in Bad Girls were particularly horrible crimes of malice. Bad Girls and Finch's death were warning signs that Faith was going off the rails- but she could have been righted in Consequences. However, Faith's bad actions in Bad Girls did logically stem from how Giles had neglected her for the entire season. Giles never took any responsibility for Faith at all. He didn't train her as he did Buffy- which IMO, could have accounted for why Faith's fighting was more chaotic and Faith couldn't respond to Buffy's order to "Stop." Faith's not used to fighting while also keeping her ears open to the orders to whomever is Watching her. This is displayed in Doppelgangland when Buffy stops herself from staking Vamp Willow because Willow said to stop. 

Willow: Nice reflexes.

Buffy: Well, I work out. 

Buffy works out in that manner because Giles makes her and directs her. Giles did not do that with Faith. Heck, Faith rejects Wesley immediately on site but we only see Wesley make any effort to train Faith one-on-one n Doppelgangland. 

In addition, it's a disgrace that Faith, a slayer, was living in a hole of an apartment complex and had to sell her body to make rent. That kind of poverty was a motive for Faith to steal in Bad Girls and then, it was a motive for Faith to work for the Mayor. Faith was living in that hole for months while Giles wasn't lifting a finger to help her- all before Wesley came to California. 

Wesley did one stupid thing that antagonized Faith- brought the Watcher's Council to arrest her in Consequences. He deserves responsibility for antagonizing Faith that way. (Angel's big fancy "intervention" about how he, a 250+ vampire who killed thousands and thousands, and Faith, a teenage slayer who accidentally killed someone in her line of duty and yes, recently was assaulting Xander, had ZERO redemptive or intellectual value to me. Wesley wasn't interrupting anything helpful there. In fact, we are all dumber for having listening Angel's speech and may God have mercy on his soul.) However, Giles also made incredibly stupid choices that antagonized Faith:

1) I have no idea why Giles made a huge show of yelling at Buffy for Finch's murder and indicated Buffy would be punished in front of Faith when Giles could somehow tell that Faith killed Finch. Giles actually started this whole mess of indicating to Faith that she'd be punished terribly for an accident and that stopped Faith from admitting that she killed Finch. But at least Wesley had a GOAL when he indicated Faith would suffer big consequences for killing Finch- arresting Faith from the general population, taking her case to the broader Council of Watchers. Giles didn't even have a goal in intimidating Faith from coming clean. 

2) The Scoobies and particularly Giles wanted it both ways with Wesley. They wanted to deem Faith only Wesley's responsibility. However, they didn't inform him of basic facts surrounding his responsibility. They should have told Wesley in Consequences about Finch's death and tried to work with him to deal with it. Especially since Wesley started off the episode by directing a mission to investigate the causes of Finch's death. 

3) By Enemies, Faith did sign up to work for the Mayor. But the Scoobies didn't have any proof that Faith personally committed crimes of malice. If the Scoobies suspected that Faith recently signed up with the Mayor, they should have tried to make some effort to convince her that this was a bad decision before she actually put her super-powered hand to evil deeds. Giles, Angel, and Buffy don't even try a safer, kinder way to figure out if Faith is working for the Mayor. Instead, they set up this whole entrapment plot with "Angelus" to manipulate Faith into crossing new horrible immoral lines and then, they publicly humiliated her in such a way that Faith didn't see a way back to the gang and goodness. You certainly can't blame Wesley because again, while Giles was sloughing off all responsibility for Wesley, he was concocting secretive schemes to manage Faith and leaving Wesley out of them. 

[Halting Hex]

3 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

Faith the rebel. Teenage girl saddled with the baggage of problems

That "wind chimes hanging in the boob window" top being only the first of many…

3 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

Do you sympathize with Faith's desire for revenge after Buffy almost killed her at the end of season 3 (though Faith herself had made several attempts to kill Buffy's friends and a boyfriend before the final confrontation)?

Empathize, sure;  a big-ass knife in the gut has to hurt.  (Especially as Buffy mostly did it for that stupid vampire's sake).  Sympathize, not so much: Faith had already killed Allan Finch, tried to frame Buffy, tried to rape Xander, tried to kill Xander, spied on the Scoobs, signed off on a plot to kill Willow, tried to desoul Angel (twice), killed the courier, killed Lester Worth, conspired to plot an apocalypse, and tried to poison Angel.  She made her hospital bed, now she can go lie in it.

1 hour ago, Loandbehold said:

I blame Wesley for a lot of the problems.

I disagree.

35 minutes ago, Melancholy said:

I partly blame a Watcher for Faith going off the rails- but it's much more Giles than Wesley. IMO, Wesley was unduly blamed while Giles got away with his neglect/outright horrible strategies with Faith. 

Wesley basically just landed in the United States in Bad Girls- the episode where Faith starts stealing stuff and accidentally kills Finch.

Exactly.  Wesley has had maybe 30 seconds of interaction with Faith ("Ah. This is perhaps Faith." "New Watcher?" "New Watcher." "Screw that.") before Faith goes off the rails and starts committing major felonies.  Giles had months.  But even Faith (accurately called an "idiot" by Mrs. Post) can tell who's the "Watcher's Pet" around here and who…isn't.

35 minutes ago, Melancholy said:

Wesley did one stupid thing that antagonized Faith- brought the Watcher's Council to arrest her in Consequences.

And that's only Wes following standard Watchers' Council protocol; perhaps if Giles/Buffy/Angel hadn't been enabling/assaulting/lecturing Faith before that, she'd have been in a more receptive frame of mind.  

(Although I grant you that Angel finally seems to be moving on from making no progress ["I know what it's like to take a life"] to seeming to reach her when he does his Ode to Willow and Xander ["but they get up, keep trying"] later on.  But still, thin gruel.  And given how hopeful Faith was for half a second when she thought Wes was unchaining her, perhaps it's premature to celebrate Captain Forehead making headway, even then.)

Edited September 19, 2018 by Halting Hex

[lembergwatcher]

19 minutes ago, Melancholy said:

In addition, it's a disgrace that Faith, a slayer, was living in a hole of an apartment complex and had to sell her body to make rent. That kind of poverty was a motive for Faith to steal in Bad Girls and then, it was a motive for Faith to work for the Mayor. Faith was living in that hole for months while Giles wasn't lifting a finger to help her- all before Wesley came to California.

That moment always bugged me, too. Faith was the new kid in town. She was under-age and she had neither job, nor family in SunnyD (and the Council didn't pay the Slayers for slaying AFAIK). Did it ever occur to Giles the Watcher, Faith had to pay the rent and have something to satisfy her basic needs? He could at least approach her and ask: "Faith, do you need something?" But apparently Giles saw only Buffy as his almost daughter (and Willow as his disciple to some extent). Therefore sometimes I think old Quentin Travers wasn't as bad as the writers want us to believe, and his decision to fire Giles after Cruciamentum has also made sense... 

[Halting Hex]

My fanon has always been that there is a Slayer stipend (enough to cover Faith's $552/mo [$18/day] rent expenses and some food), but since Buffy still lives at home, the Council see no need to pay it to her. But I'll grant you that there's no more textual support than there is for the "Faith has to make the rent by hooking" theory.

(Yes, she tried to flirt [unsuccessfully] with the motel manager in Faith, Hope & Trick.  But since she [presumably] pays the rent both before and after that, that can't be the only solution she finds, cash-wise.)

[Melancholy]

41 minutes ago, lembergwatcher said:

That moment always bugged me, too. Faith was the new kid in town. She was under-age and she had neither job, nor family in SunnyD (and the Council didn't pay the Slayers for slaying AFAIK). Did it ever occur to Giles the Watcher, Faith had to pay the rent and have something to satisfy her basic needs? He could at least approach her and ask: "Faith, do you need something?" But apparently Giles saw only Buffy as his almost daughter (and Willow as his disciple to some extent). Therefore sometimes I think old Quentin Travers wasn't as bad as the writers want us to believe, and his decision to fire Giles after Cruciamentum has also made sense... 

I'm pretty sure your last sentence about QT being right to fire Giles is a joke, right? The original injustice comes from the Watcher's Council paying Watchers but not Slayers. But lol, I'm confused because Giles has a lot of flaws as a Watcher. Things were a billion times harder for Wesley because his slayers rejected him and then, he "Watched" Angel instead of Buffy in LA. Angel is generally far stupider, meaner, less ethical, less restrained, less honest, less interested in hearing advice or the counsel of friends than Buffy. However, through BtVS/AtS, Wesley displayed more professionalism, organization, work ethic, intellect, and grit than Giles. And Wesley was imperfect in his own way. It just goes to show that Giles had very serious weaknesses as a Watcher.

But yeah, I can't reconcile how a Watcher can "Watch" a Slayer- meaning providing the adult expertise and resources so a teenage girl can fight demons and monsters- when the Watcher isn't guaranteeing that the Slayer has the basic necessities of life. In fact while the Council fucks up by not paying their slayers, I do get the impression that Watchers like Nikki Wood's Watcher or Kendra's Watcher internalized that they have to help their young charges who don't have a family of their own to house and feed them. (Although Kendra is pretty much from Spart in her lifestyle.) Not sure if they came to that conclusion on their own or whether Watcher's Council training did speak to Watchers financially helping their slayers even if the Council wasn't making payments directly to the slayers. Either way, Giles failed as a Watcher by not giving S3 Faith any financial help and giving S6 Buffy very meager financial help. 

I don't think there's a Slayer stipend. I think Watchers like Kendra's Watcher or Nikki Wood's Watcher just step up on their own. I fanwank that Faith's old Watcher left her some money. They seemed close. I think it's also plausible that Faith was prostituting herself and stealing basic necessities. 

Edited September 19, 2018 by Melancholy

[lembergwatcher]

56 minutes ago, Melancholy said:

The original injustice comes from the Watcher's Council paying Watchers but not Slayers

Well, yes. But that doesn't mean they can't do the right thing once in a while. Then again lots of things remained unchanged in the Council for centuries, and QT's age and upbringing, and the whole Council's philosophy together with countless rules and regulations made him view the world and act in the particular (old-fashioned) way. But Giles as a field Watcher, who had the opportunity to observe things very closely, could at least address the question or find a way to deal with the problem, if he knew the WC leadership was that narrow-minded.

As for firing Giles... Well, behind every joke there's some truth, you know. Though we can see Giles having the fatherly feelings towards his Slayer as a huge compliment, it had some unhappy side effects (his tendency to follow Buffy's lead on far too many occasions, for example). QT probably was a dick for most of his stint as the head of the Council, but I don't think everything he did was outright wrong. And I also don't think Buffy needed someone who would pander to her more than necessary, that much. 

[Jack Shaftoe]

Quote

The original injustice comes from the Watcher's Council paying Watchers but not Slayers.

Almost nothing about the Watcher's Council makes sense, to be honest. It's basically a clumsy plot device that shows that the writers weren't really that good at worldbuilding. I mean, it's only introduced in season 3, it has lots of resources but in cases of impending apocalypse Buffy and Giles rely for help only on a bunch of teenagers? It has many Watchers but few seem keen at all on working with, you know, the actual Slayer. And then there is the needlessly cruel and incredibly stupid Cruciamentum, their inexplicable behaviour in Checkpoint, their sending of assassins for Angel but leaving Faith in coma for months, instead of killing her off, etc.

As for Faith, I am not a fan. Too cliche, her bond with the Mayor happened too quickly and I just can't believe she would go to him of all people for help after being betrayed by a string of authority figures in her and knowing practically nothing about the guy. And then she became all angry at Buffy and her friends for not being thrilled with her helping a guy intending to destroy their entire hometown. The only time I truly enjoyed Faith was when she kicked Connor's ass in Orpheus.

[Melancholy]

1 hour ago, lembergwatcher said:

Well, yes. But that doesn't mean they can't do the right thing once in a while. Then again lots of things remained unchanged in the Council for centuries, and QT's age and upbringing, and the whole Council's philosophy together with countless rules and regulations made him view the world and act in the particular (old-fashioned) way. But Giles as a field Watcher, who had the opportunity to observe things very closely, could at least address the question or find a way to deal with the problem, if he knew the WC leadership was that narrow-minded.

As for firing Giles... Well, behind every joke there's some truth, you know. Though we can see Giles having the fatherly feelings towards his Slayer as a huge compliment, it had some unhappy side effects (his tendency to follow Buffy's lead on far too many occasions, for example). QT probably was a dick for most of his stint as the head of the Council, but I don't think everything he did was outright wrong. And I also don't think Buffy needed someone who would pander to her more than necessary, that much. 

I agreed with Quentin Travers/The Council in Checkpoint that Giles was selling unreasonably dangerous items in the Magic Box to the general public. They didn't even know that Giles sold magic ingredients to the Big Bad so that she could conjure a giant snake to tear through Sunnydale. I think they had a point about not wanting to cure Angel  in Graduation Day- although, I see the other argument that they should have just worked on a cure so Buffy wouldn't be distracted from stopping the Ascension. The rest of the time, I took Buffy or Giles's side against them. Particularly, the Cruciamentum which was horribly evil. Although, like, I think Buffy should have been nicer to Wesley for a number of reasons. But one reason was that, unlike Giles, Wesley actually didn't poison Buffy recently....

1 hour ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Almost nothing about the Watcher's Council makes sense, to be honest. It's basically a clumsy plot device that shows that the writers weren't really that good at worldbuilding. I mean, it's only introduced in season 3, it has lots of resources but in cases of impending apocalypse Buffy and Giles rely for help only on a bunch of teenagers? It has many Watchers but few seem keen at all on working with, you know, the actual Slayer. And then there is the needlessly cruel and incredibly stupid Cruciamentum, their inexplicable behaviour in Checkpoint, their sending of assassins for Angel but leaving Faith in coma for months, instead of killing her off, etc.

As for Faith, I am not a fan. Too cliche, her bond with the Mayor happened too quickly and I just can't believe she would go to him of all people for help after being betrayed by a string of authority figures in her and knowing practically nothing about the guy. And then she became all angry at Buffy and her friends for not being thrilled with her helping a guy intending to destroy their entire hometown. The only time I truly enjoyed Faith was when she kicked Connor's ass in Orpheus.

I think some organization of Watchers was implied in S1-2, even though they didn't get a focus. You'd think some organizational structure accounts for how Watchers live in wildly different areas to train Slayers, how baby Kendra was delivered to a Watcher, how there's a Slayer Handbook. All of that wouldn't make much sense without some organizational structure for Watchers.

I liken the Watcher's Council to a corrupt charity. Corrupt charities have plenty of resources. Their mission statement recognizes the importance of the cause they're championing. However, they spend the money on retreats (to the Cotswolds) and bullshit. The Council felt real to me. 

 As for Faith, I never got the impression that she was looking for the gang's approval of her working with the Mayor. She had a time as a double agent but when she was exposed, she never asked for the gang's approval of her choices.

I do agree that it was OOC that Faith would go to the Mayor looking for a job as a hitwoman. For me, that turn would have made SO MUCH MORE SENSE if the Mayor sought Faith out and recruited her with a salary and the pad with the Playstation. I have no idea why it was written with (a) Faith going to the Mayor and (b) we don't see the whole conversation where the Mayor hires Faith. The scene where Faith became the Mayor's hench-woman is one of the most important scenes of the season- and we didn't see it. Bizarre. 

Edited September 19, 2018 by Melancholy

[lembergwatcher]

1 hour ago, Melancholy said:

The rest of the time, I took Buffy or Giles's side against them. Particularly, the Cruciamentum which was horribly evil.

The Cruciamentum sucked, that's true. But despite the blatant evilness of the whole thing, it partially achieved the initial goal, i.e. showed that even without her powers Buffy was a tough nut to crack, and she had the strength and determination to survive (and win eventually) against all odds. Brutal archaic savagery? No doubt about it. But something tells me post-Cruciamentum Buffy was a little more self-confident and aware of her true power. The Council's approach was outdated and immoral, while Giles' way of handling things wasn't particularly effective (and Faith happened to be a living breathing evidence of that fact).

Sometimes we have to accept the obvious: both Buffy and Faith were teens, who lacked knowledge, skills and experience, and therefore couldn't be in charge. 'Cause most of those characteristics that made the two of them invincible at the battlefield were exactly the same things that prevented both from being in charge and making right, reasonable decisions. Someone had to tip off the ol' Ripper, that he couldn't deal with his Slayers' issues by either giving one of them a free hand on most issues or turning a blind eye on the problems/antics of the other. 

[Joe Hellandback]

16 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

Forgive me for quoting someone like Andrew (and I have much doubt we can really talk about true "principles or beliefs" in that case), but I guess it's time we say some words regarding Faith Lehane, the Slayer # 2 or the dark slayer. My own attitude towards Buffy's sister Slayer has always been (and always will be) quite controversial. I didn't know what to think about her when she first appeared at the beginning of the third season (I still have trouble getting along with such types in real life), then my attitude changed for the worse when Faith's downward spiral became apparent (though it had never been totally her fault, Giles and Wesley, they got a lot to answer for too. Even Buffy and the Scoobs sucked at some point). I totally hated her for what she did in Buffy's fourth (and Angel's first) season, but became more tolerant of her close to the end of Angel's fourth and Buffy's seventh seasons.


Faith the rebel. Teenage girl saddled with the baggage of problems, the one with the unhappy childhood and issues regarding self-control. Quite a cocky type displaying obvious disturbing tendencies the very first ep we see her character (Faith, Hope and Trick). Despite being clearly unstable and having some rather questionable, immature attitude (her twisted "philosophy" was wholly revealed in Bad Girls), Faith was nevertheless chosen by The Powers That Suck to fight the good fight. She made her own choice to go down the dark road eventually (Consequences, Enemies, Choices) and caused much trouble to Buffy and the others. Then there were Buffy's knife in the gut and the eight months long coma, followed by Miss Lehane's attempt of catching up on "good old" times of death and destruction. Then at a certain point Faith somehow found the strength to do the right thing and tried to redeem herself from past sins. Faith's prison term was interrupted due to Wesley's abrupt decision and the raven haired beauty eventually found herself fighting side-by-side with her former friends/enemies at the place where it all started...


So, what is your opinion about that particular character? Was Faithie some sort of anti-Buffy or was she just more honest than the blonde Slayer, when it came to being chosen? Do you agree with the notion that there have to be different sets of rules and standards for the chosen ones and the common folk (since the Slayers, you know, they carry the weight of the world in a way unheard by most people)? Should the Scoobs have to be more open-minded and accept Faith into the gang unconditionally, despite Buffy's jealousy and their own initial mistrust? Did Richard Wilkins succeed in getting Faith on his side solely because Giles/Wesley sucked as a Watchers, Buffy sucked as a sister Slayer and the Scoobies were bad friends, or was it due to him manipulating and pandering to the girl's ambitions and darker urges? In which way did the Scooby Gang suck more: failing to reach out to Faith and accept her into their ranks or sending her a clear message after refusing to persecute the dark haired Slayer for murdering Allan Finch, nearly murdering Xander and resisting Council's authority (Consequences)?



Did Faith have a legitimate reason to be angry at Buffy over her allegedly "having more" than the dark Slayer had (friends, family, love life, recognition, future)? Do you sympathize with Faith's desire for revenge after Buffy almost killed her at the end of season 3 (though Faith herself had made several attempts to kill Buffy's friends and a boyfriend before the final confrontation)?

 

Was Faith a monster in disguise or just a very insecure, sad and scared little girl, who wanted love and acceptance, but didn't know how to get both (hence the bravado)? Could having a terrible home life be viewed as some sort of justification for Faith's further shortcomings? Do you believe in Faith's sincerity when she decided it was time to pay some price? Was she fully redeemed from your POV?

 

Some unconventional thoughts are welcomed.

 

 

 

 

Faith may be my favourite character on the show, I remember reading a fanfic where the author essentially took the nuclear option and declared that no matter what other people did in there fanfic Faith, Buffy and Dawn would end up triumphant, happy together living in a Rome apartment and I thought 'That's okay with me'. So why do I love Faith?

1. ED redefined gorgeousness for her generation (and look at her competition!).

2.  Fuffy!

3. The only character who kicked ass better than Buffy. 

4.  Despite all her fire and fury she was still vulnerable. 

5.  Her relationship with the Mayor was oddly touching. 

6. Her fall to the darkside was eminently believable

7. As was her redemption

8. Jaith!

9. That they originally intended to kill her off but she was too popular with fans/actors/writers. 

10. I find it interesting to speculate on her relationship with Dawn in everyone's memory?

11. She would inspire fanfic writers to new heights of kinkiness 

12.  She was a popular enough character to be offered her own spinoff

13 hours ago, Melancholy said:

I love Faith. Such a great character. She's most responsible for her choices. However, she was a poor teenager, cursed with awesome powers and made responsible for the fate of the world. Meanwhile, she was abandoned and manipulated by all of the adults in her life. She's a sympathetic case. I don't blame the Teen Scoobies for her fall. Faith needed financial help, discipline, and better training and psychological help much more than a gang of pals. The Mayor filled that void  

I partly blame a Watcher for Faith going off the rails- but it's much more Giles than Wesley. IMO, Wesley was unduly blamed while Giles got away with his neglect/outright horrible strategies with Faith. 

Wesley basically just landed in the United States in Bad Girls- the episode where Faith starts stealing stuff and accidentally kills Finch. Now, I don't think Faith's crimes in Bad Girls were particularly horrible crimes of malice. Bad Girls and Finch's death were warning signs that Faith was going off the rails- but she could have been righted in Consequences. However, Faith's bad actions in Bad Girls did logically stem from how Giles had neglected her for the entire season. Giles never took any responsibility for Faith at all. He didn't train her as he did Buffy- which IMO, could have accounted for why Faith's fighting was more chaotic and Faith couldn't respond to Buffy's order to "Stop." Faith's not used to fighting while also keeping her ears open to the orders to whomever is Watching her. This is displayed in Doppelgangland when Buffy stops herself from staking Vamp Willow because Willow said to stop. 

Willow: Nice reflexes.

Buffy: Well, I work out. 

Buffy works out in that manner because Giles makes her and directs her. Giles did not do that with Faith. Heck, Faith rejects Wesley immediately on site but we only see Wesley make any effort to train Faith one-on-one n Doppelgangland. 

In addition, it's a disgrace that Faith, a slayer, was living in a hole of an apartment complex and had to sell her body to make rent. That kind of poverty was a motive for Faith to steal in Bad Girls and then, it was a motive for Faith to work for the Mayor. Faith was living in that hole for months while Giles wasn't lifting a finger to help her- all before Wesley came to California. 

Wesley did one stupid thing that antagonized Faith- brought the Watcher's Council to arrest her in Consequences. He deserves responsibility for antagonizing Faith that way. (Angel's big fancy "intervention" about how he, a 250+ vampire who killed thousands and thousands, and Faith, a teenage slayer who accidentally killed someone in her line of duty and yes, recently was assaulting Xander, had ZERO redemptive or intellectual value to me. Wesley wasn't interrupting anything helpful there. In fact, we are all dumber for having listening Angel's speech and may God have mercy on his soul.) However, Giles also made incredibly stupid choices that antagonized Faith:

1) I have no idea why Giles made a huge show of yelling at Buffy for Finch's murder and indicated Buffy would be punished in front of Faith when Giles could somehow tell that Faith killed Finch. Giles actually started this whole mess of indicating to Faith that she'd be punished terribly for an accident and that stopped Faith from admitting that she killed Finch. But at least Wesley had a GOAL when he indicated Faith would suffer big consequences for killing Finch- arresting Faith from the general population, taking her case to the broader Council of Watchers. Giles didn't even have a goal in intimidating Faith from coming clean. 

2) The Scoobies and particularly Giles wanted it both ways with Wesley. They wanted to deem Faith only Wesley's responsibility. However, they didn't inform him of basic facts surrounding his responsibility. They should have told Wesley in Consequences about Finch's death and tried to work with him to deal with it. Especially since Wesley started off the episode by directing a mission to investigate the causes of Finch's death. 

3) By Enemies, Faith did sign up to work for the Mayor. But the Scoobies didn't have any proof that Faith personally committed crimes of malice. If the Scoobies suspected that Faith recently signed up with the Mayor, they should have tried to make some effort to convince her that this was a bad decision before she actually put her super-powered hand to evil deeds. Giles, Angel, and Buffy don't even try a safer, kinder way to figure out if Faith is working for the Mayor. Instead, they set up this whole entrapment plot with "Angelus" to manipulate Faith into crossing new horrible immoral lines and then, they publicly humiliated her in such a way that Faith didn't see a way back to the gang and goodness. You certainly can't blame Wesley because again, while Giles was sloughing off all responsibility for Wesley, he was concocting secretive schemes to manage Faith and leaving Wesley out of them. 

Were Faith's powers a curse? Where would she have been without them? A biker's moll or a stripper?

[Joe Hellandback]

12 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

That moment always bugged me, too. Faith was the new kid in town. She was under-age and she had neither job, nor family in SunnyD (and the Council didn't pay the Slayers for slaying AFAIK). Did it ever occur to Giles the Watcher, Faith had to pay the rent and have something to satisfy her basic needs? He could at least approach her and ask: "Faith, do you need something?" But apparently Giles saw only Buffy as his almost daughter (and Willow as his disciple to some extent). Therefore sometimes I think old Quentin Travers wasn't as bad as the writers want us to believe, and his decision to fire Giles after Cruciamentum has also made sense... 

Whilst that's a standard of fanfic (as is converting Revello Drive into "Madam Joyce's") did we ever actually have that hinted at in the show? And as Gwendoline Post put it the Watchers believed their Slayers should be spartan, hence why Kendra flies cargo hold. 

 Giles saw all the Scooby girls as his daughters, even Anya. I actually love the scenes in s7 where he backs Faith in her leadership, at last she has daddy's approval (as well as little sis'). 

[Joe Hellandback]

10 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Almost nothing about the Watcher's Council makes sense, to be honest. It's basically a clumsy plot device that shows that the writers weren't really that good at worldbuilding. I mean, it's only introduced in season 3, it has lots of resources but in cases of impending apocalypse Buffy and Giles rely for help only on a bunch of teenagers? It has many Watchers but few seem keen at all on working with, you know, the actual Slayer. And then there is the needlessly cruel and incredibly stupid Cruciamentum, their inexplicable behaviour in Checkpoint, their sending of assassins for Angel but leaving Faith in coma for months, instead of killing her off, etc.

As for Faith, I am not a fan. Too cliche, her bond with the Mayor happened too quickly and I just can't believe she would go to him of all people for help after being betrayed by a string of authority figures in her and knowing practically nothing about the guy. And then she became all angry at Buffy and her friends for not being thrilled with her helping a guy intending to destroy their entire hometown. The only time I truly enjoyed Faith was when she kicked Connor's ass in Orpheus.

No, the Watchers were essential, it would be unrealistic if every one of the good guys was automatically on Buffy's side? The wider organisation gives depth to the storyline. I sometimes wonder if Giles deliberately cut the Watcher's out of the fight because he knew that they tended to blunder? Or were they like Pentagon in the Vietnam War, cut off from the reality of the conflict? 

 The Cruciamentum made sense in terms of establishing their power over the Slayer and ensuring she hasn't fallen to the dark side. Their behaviour in Checkpoint is very understandable, they're trying to reassert themselves. And they're good people, they don't want to just kill Faith off if they can help it. 

 Faith's fall is perfectly reasonable, she's cut off from the good guys so she turns to the alternative. Their relationship grows up over time, in the first ep she actually offers herself to him, they haven't established that bond yet. And yes, human bad guys never see themselves as such, they always have a rationalisation (look at Faith's dreams of the picnic). 

But I agree, Orpheus is the best Angel ep of all. 

9 hours ago, Melancholy said:

I agreed with Quentin Travers/The Council in Checkpoint that Giles was selling unreasonably dangerous items in the Magic Box to the general public. They didn't even know that Giles sold magic ingredients to the Big Bad so that she could conjure a giant snake to tear through Sunnydale. I think they had a point about not wanting to cure Angel  in Graduation Day- although, I see the other argument that they should have just worked on a cure so Buffy wouldn't be distracted from stopping the Ascension. The rest of the time, I took Buffy or Giles's side against them. Particularly, the Cruciamentum which was horribly evil. Although, like, I think Buffy should have been nicer to Wesley for a number of reasons. But one reason was that, unlike Giles, Wesley actually didn't poison Buffy recently....

I think some organization of Watchers was implied in S1-2, even though they didn't get a focus. You'd think some organizational structure accounts for how Watchers live in wildly different areas to train Slayers, how baby Kendra was delivered to a Watcher, how there's a Slayer Handbook. All of that wouldn't make much sense without some organizational structure for Watchers.

I liken the Watcher's Council to a corrupt charity. Corrupt charities have plenty of resources. Their mission statement recognizes the importance of the cause they're championing. However, they spend the money on retreats (to the Cotswolds) and bullshit. The Council felt real to me. 

 As for Faith, I never got the impression that she was looking for the gang's approval of her working with the Mayor. She had a time as a double agent but when she was exposed, she never asked for the gang's approval of her choices.

I do agree that it was OOC that Faith would go to the Mayor looking for a job as a hitwoman. For me, that turn would have made SO MUCH MORE SENSE if the Mayor sought Faith out and recruited her with a salary and the pad with the Playstation. I have no idea why it was written with (a) Faith going to the Mayor and (b) we don't see the whole conversation where the Mayor hires Faith. The scene where Faith became the Mayor's hench-woman is one of the most important scenes of the season- and we didn't see it. Bizarre. 

To me it was more like a high command in the military, police or an intelligence agency, doing what they thought was right but caught up in pedantic dogma and cut off the frontline reality. I actually think it's better that the Faith/Mayor conversation is left to the imagination, it allows it to build up slowly through the subtle hints we see.  

[Jack Shaftoe]

11 hours ago, Melancholy said:

I liken the Watcher's Council to a corrupt charity. Corrupt charities have plenty of resources. Their mission statement recognizes the importance of the cause they're championing. However, they spend the money on retreats (to the Cotswolds) and bullshit. The Council felt real to me. 

Sure, being corrupt makes sense. Their utter indifference to what their most precious asset, the Slayer, was doing, does not, IMO. Especially when a part of her mission was to save the world and that includes the skins of Travers and his minions. They should have helped Buffy more not out of any altruism but out of pure self-interest. Plus, in any big charitable organization, even if one which is corrupt in general, there are at least some people who genuinely believe in its mission and want to help. Here, we have Giles and Wesley, and that's about it. And on the flip side, you would think they would be plenty of Watchers wanting to have a Slayer to boss around, yet Giles was left in charge of Faith for months. They didn't do anything to stop Buffy from dating Angel or to urge her to kill him sooner in S2 (because they didn't exist yet but that's a meta reason), this really isn't consistent with the notion of the tyrannical Council which wants to be in control all the time that was presented whenever they actually showed up.

Quote

 As for Faith, I never got the impression that she was looking for the gang's approval of her working with the Mayor. She had a time as a double agent but when she was exposed, she never asked for the gang's approval of her choices.

That's not what I meant, sorry for being unclear. I meant her protestations like "You gutted me, blondie!" and her dislike of Willow and Xander, as if they had turned against her for no reason at all.

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎20‎/‎09‎/‎2018 at 12:23 PM, Jack Shaftoe said:

Sure, being corrupt makes sense. Their utter indifference to what their most precious asset, the Slayer, was doing, does not, IMO. Especially when a part of her mission was to save the world and that includes the skins of Travers and his minions. They should have helped Buffy more not out of any altruism but out of pure self-interest. Plus, in any big charitable organization, even if one which is corrupt in general, there are at least some people who genuinely believe in its mission and want to help. Here, we have Giles and Wesley, and that's about it. And on the flip side, you would think they would be plenty of Watchers wanting to have a Slayer to boss around, yet Giles was left in charge of Faith for months. They didn't do anything to stop Buffy from dating Angel or to urge her to kill him sooner in S2 (because they didn't exist yet but that's a meta reason), this really isn't consistent with the notion of the tyrannical Council which wants to be in control all the time that was presented whenever they actually showed up.

That's not what I meant, sorry for being unclear. I meant her protestations like "You gutted me, blondie!" and her dislike of Willow and Xander, as if they had turned against her for no reason at all.

Bad folks always find their own justification, it takes a lot for Faith to confront her own hypocrisy. 

[lembergwatcher]

Sometimes I can't help but think: what if? What if Giles as a Watcher (and Buffy as a sister slayer) tried a little bit harder to help Faith? What if Faith's turn to the dark side wasn't that inevitable and she could've been an equally powerful force of the good? Well, I'm not saying what happened to the raven-haired Slayer was entirely B/G fault, but still...

Since the very beginning both Buffy and Giles knew the other girl had serious issues... And Buffy herself did aknowledge this in Faith, Hope & Trick...

Quote

Giles: What you must realize, Buffy, is that you and Faith have very different temperaments. (sips his coffee)

Buffy: Yeah, and mine's the sane one. (Giles chuckles) The girl's not playing with a full deck, Giles. She has almost no deck. She has a three.

Giles: You said yourself that she-she killed one. Sh-she-she's just a plucky fighter who got a little carried away. Which is natural. She's focused on the slaying. She doesn't have a whole other life here, as you do.

Buffy: She doesn't need a life. She has mine.

Giles: I think you're being a little...

Buffy: No, I'm being a lot. (Giles sips again) I know that. But she nearly got us both killed. The girl needs help.

Giles: All right. I'll see if I can reach her Watcher at the retreat. They're (checks his watch) eight hours ahead now. I guess they're probably sitting down to a nightcap.

Yes, Buffy's small sister in arms needed help. Did she get any? Of course, not. What if Giles actually did his fucking job instead of sighing over not being invited to Watchers orgies in Cotswolds and Buffy really tried to give Faith a helping hand, i.e. do something more than just a lame "Faith, don't die!" talk?

To add insult to injury, both Buffy and Giles have learned Faith was deeply traumatized after witnessing her Watcher's gruesome death. Faith was an underage girl at the moment and therefore the said event took especially heavy toll on her and her mental health... And yet... after Kakistos turned to dust the "useful" part of the Scooby Gang was clearly more interested in... "Angel was cured. Wah" thing.

Quote

Giles: The council has approved our request. Faith is to stay here indefinitely. (walks around the table) I'm to look after you both until a new Watcher is assigned. (picks up some papers)

Buffy: Good. She really came through in the end. (slides off of the table) She had a lot to deal with, but she did it. She got it behind her.

Giles: I'm glad to hear it. (looks over the papers)

Well, looking after someone requires actual looking, Rupert, and you don't seem to do that at all in the following episodes (yeah, I know, it's Buffy's show, but... what about giving some proof Giles is true to his words??). And what makes you think Faith "got it behind her", Buff? Because otherwise it's not that easy to just shrug off the other Slayer and her problems, and go back into "Aaaaaaaangeel" mood? 

Five eps later, in Lovers Walk we learn what our Tweed Boy really meant by "looking" after both Buffy and Faith.

Quote

Giles: With scores like these, Buffy, you could have a first-rate education. I'm, I'm not suggesting that you... ignore your calling, but, um... you need to look to your future. (goes back to the table) And with Faith here, i-i-it may be that you can (draws a breath) move on. For a-a time, at least. (packs the book)

True. Buffy is a Watcher's pet and therefore she can have a future and move on (for a time, at least). Faith? Lack of good scores makes her a mere cannon fodder in the "little game" and nothing more. Unlike Buffy she must follow her calling, no matter what. Because traumatized and unstable Slayer is the perfect candidate to be the One Girl in all the world, you know. The worst part is that Tweed Boy doesn't even try to pretend he equally cares about both of his Slayers... Does he even know where and how his other Slayer lives? How about paying her a visit?

Well, G-Man, you can be all "I'm almost certain you're not, but to be fair, I wasn't listening" with someone like Xander and have zero consequenes whatsoever. Xander doesn't have either super powers or killer instincts, he won't go after you/someone you care about or try to destroy the world. OTOH neglecting someone like Faith (and what we got here is a clear case of neglect) can lead to serious complications. 

Of course, it's easier to blame Wesley or Faith's overall personality for the whole fiasco but the thing is the seeds were sown well before the other Watcher appeared and Alan Finch lost his life. And even though Faith herself was no angel (no pun intended), part of the blame for what have happened lies on Giles' shoulders.

The saddest part is that neither Tweed Boy nor Buffy apparently have ever aknowledged their partial responsibility for the whole mess. Right until Chosen both were confident they did nothing wrong. Which makes me regret Faith didn't do more damage to those two during her rogue times...

[Joe Hellandback]

21 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

Sometimes I can't help but think: what if? What if Giles as a Watcher (and Buffy as a sister slayer) tried a little bit harder to help Faith? What if Faith's turn to the dark side wasn't that inevitable and she could've been an equally powerful force of the good? Well, I'm not saying what happened to the raven-haired Slayer was entirely B/G fault, but still...

Since the very beginning both Buffy and Giles knew the other girl had serious issues... And Buffy herself did aknowledge this in Faith, Hope & Trick...

Yes, Buffy's small sister in arms needed help. Did she get any? Of course, not. What if Giles actually did his fucking job instead of sighing over not being invited to Watchers orgies in Cotswolds and Buffy really tried to give Faith a helping hand, i.e. do something more than just a lame "Faith, don't die!" talk?

To add insult to injury, both Buffy and Giles have learned Faith was deeply traumatized after witnessing her Watcher's gruesome death. Faith was an underage girl at the moment and therefore the said event took especially heavy toll on her and her mental health... And yet... after Kakistos turned to dust the "useful" part of the Scooby Gang was clearly more interested in... "Angel was cured. Wah" thing.

Well, looking after someone requires actual looking, Rupert, and you don't seem to do that at all in the following episodes (yeah, I know, it's Buffy's show, but... what about giving some proof Giles is true to his words??). And what makes you think Faith "got it behind her", Buff? Because otherwise it's not that easy to just shrug off the other Slayer and her problems, and go back into "Aaaaaaaangeel" mood? 

Five eps later, in Lovers Walk we learn what our Tweed Boy really meant by "looking" after both Buffy and Faith.

True. Buffy is a Watcher's pet and therefore she can have a future and move on (for a time, at least). Faith? Lack of good scores makes her a mere cannon fodder in the "little game" and nothing more. Unlike Buffy she must follow her calling, no matter what. Because traumatized and unstable Slayer is the perfect candidate to be the One Girl in all the world, you know. The worst part is that Tweed Boy doesn't even try to pretend he equally cares about both of his Slayers... Does he even know where and how his other Slayer lives? How about paying her a visit?

Well, G-Man, you can be all "I'm almost certain you're not, but to be fair, I wasn't listening" with someone like Xander and have zero consequenes whatsoever. Xander doesn't have either super powers or killer instincts, he won't go after you/someone you care about or try to destroy the world. OTOH neglecting someone like Faith (and what we got here is a clear case of neglect) can lead to serious complications. 

Of course, it's easier to blame Wesley or Faith's overall personality for the whole fiasco but the thing is the seeds were sown well before the other Watcher appeared and Alan Finch lost his life. And even though Faith herself was no angel (no pun intended), part of the blame for what have happened lies on Giles' shoulders.

The saddest part is that neither Tweed Boy nor Buffy apparently have ever aknowledged their partial responsibility for the whole mess. Right until Chosen both were confident they did nothing wrong. Which makes me regret Faith didn't do more damage to those two during her rogue times...

Because essentially they had their own problems? Remember Faith considered being the Slayer fun and rejected all attempts to help her. 

[lembergwatcher]

16 minutes ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Because essentially they had their own problems?

Right. Giles is the Watcher. Buffy and Faith are his slayers, his responsibility. Giles' job is to watch Buffy AND Faith. What can be more important than that, what problems?

As for Buffy... Somehow I think her sister slayer should be more important than, say, homecoming queen title or (un)dead boyfriend.

2 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Remember Faith considered being the Slayer fun and rejected all attempts to help her.

There are lots of ways of persuading someone to change her/his mind. In her current state Faith poses a potential threat to everyone and to herself. Both Buffy and Giles have a duty to protect others (sometimes even against their own will).

[Halting Hex]

On 7/14/2019 at 7:10 AM, lembergwatcher said:

And what makes you think Faith "got it behind her", Buff?

Because Faith went from cowering and whimpering at Kakistos's very presence to being able to slay him, the whole "need a bigger stake" issue aside.

Yes, Buffy still had Master-related iss-yews even after she tossed Fruit-Punch Mouth onto that conveniently-broken piece of table, but still.  Dusting the bad guys is therapeutic, I'd agree.

Quote

WILLOW: If you care about somebody you care about them. You can't change that by...

BUFFY: ...killing them? Maybe not. But I think it's a start.  —Angel

14 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

Giles is the Watcher. Buffy and Faith are his slayers, his responsibility.

Well, technically, by the time Faith "falls to the dark side", Giles is out of the whole Watcher game.  Not that I blame Wesley (whom I defended upthread) and not that Giles didn't IMO greatly neglect Faith during the first half of the season, but the Council can hardly criticize Giles for not doing a better job of a job from which they've already sacked him.

As I once wrote on TWoP, "Faith's murders are mostly her responsibility.  I do agree that Giles bears the most responsibility of anyone else, though."

[lembergwatcher]

7 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Buffy still had Master-related iss-yews even after she tossed Fruit-Punch Mouth onto that conveniently-broken piece of table, but still.  Dusting the bad guys is therapeutic, I'd agree.

If it was OK for Buffy to have those iss-yews a few months later, how can we expect Faith to get over everything in one fell swoop, simply by slaying some baddie? And let us not exaggerate the therapeutic power of vampire-dusting.

7 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

  Quote

WILLOW: If you care about somebody you care about them. You can't change that by...

BUFFY: ...killing them? Maybe not. But I think it's a start.  —Angel

Killing don't always lead to solution. Buffy of all people should've been mature enough to know that.

7 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Well, technically, by the time Faith "falls to the dark side", Giles is out of the whole Watcher game.  Not that I blame Wesley

Yes, but like I said: the seeds of darkness were sown long before Wesley entered the library in Bad Girls. And even though Giles is "out of the whole Watcher game", he's still there putting a spoke in Wesley's wheel all the time.

7 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

the Council can hardly criticize Giles for not doing a better job

The Council surely can't but I can. And Faith had a legitimate right to play some tough games with bound and gagged Tweed Boy, I'd say.

7 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Faith's murders are mostly her responsibility. 

Who can argue with that? Shifting responsibility to Giles is the last thing I wanna do. But one of the reasons Faith went rogue was her not getting the proper help when she needed it the most (at the beginning of her stint in SunnyD). Unlike Buffy, Faith didn't have a safe haven in the guise of family and friends, therefore it was much harder for her to deal with all the shit that accompanied slaying. Having two teenage girls on his hands required not only the Watcher's skills but also being an adult, a father figure or a role model to some extent, i.e. teaching basic things about rights and wrongs of this world. I don't think Giles needed any special permission from Council in this regard.

Edited July 16, 2019 by lembergwatcher

[Joe Hellandback]

On 7/16/2019 at 9:25 AM, lembergwatcher said:

If it was OK for Buffy to have those iss-yews a few months later, how can we expect Faith to get over everything in one fell swoop, simply by slaying some baddie? And let us not exaggerate the therapeutic power of vampire-dusting.

Killing don't always lead to solution. Buffy of all people should've been mature enough to know that.

Yes, but like I said: the seeds of darkness were sown long before Wesley entered the library in Bad Girls. And even though Giles is "out of the whole Watcher game", he's still there putting a spoke in Wesley's wheel all the time.

The Council surely can't but I can. And Faith had a legitimate right to play some tough games with bound and gagged Tweed Boy, I'd say.

Who can argue with that? Shifting responsibility to Giles is the last thing I wanna do. But one of the reasons Faith went rogue was her not getting the proper help when she needed it the most (at the beginning of her stint in SunnyD). Unlike Buffy, Faith didn't have a safe haven in the guise of family and friends, therefore it was much harder for her to deal with all the shit that accompanied slaying. Having two teenage girls on his hands required not only the Watcher's skills but also being an adult, a father figure or a role model to some extent, i.e. teaching basic things about rights and wrongs of this world. I don't think Giles needed any special permission from Council in this regard.

Eliza dropped her first sprog;

https://www.eonline.com/au/news/1061698/eliza-dushku-gives-birth-to-baby-boy-philip-bourne

Congrats, now lets see him at a playdate with SMG and AH's kids. 

[lembergwatcher]

20 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Eliza dropped her first sprog;

https://www.eonline.com/au/news/1061698/eliza-dushku-gives-birth-to-baby-boy-philip-bourne

Congrats, now lets see him at a playdate with SMG and AH's kids.

Happy for her.

[lembergwatcher]

On 8/4/2019 at 2:08 PM, Joe Hellandback said:

Congrats, now lets see him at a playdate with SMG and AH's kids.

I think those will be Clare Kramer's kids since ED & CK are friends in real life AFAIK.

[Joe Hellandback]

11 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

I think those will be Clare Kramer's kids since ED & CK are friends in real life AFAIK.

A Buffy nursery would be an interesting photoshoot