Angel: First Cut or Fade Away?

[Pallas]

Discuss.

[lembergwatcher]

From Liam, the 18th century Irish playboy, through the ruthless bloodsucking Angelus, leader of  the Whirlwind, to ensouled vampire Angel, cursed to walk through the world in search of redemption, to mysterious Angel, the associated member of the SG and Buffy's first lover. From Angelus 2.0, through the prisoner in the hell dimension, to once again ensouled Angel brought back to Sunnydale. From the head of a supernatural detective agency "helping the helpless" in L.A. to the fighter in his own right, to the head of Angel Investigation for the second time. From Angelus 3.0 to the manager of  Wolfram & Hart Los Angeles branch...  For over two centuries Angel(us) was many things...

 

I always thought this particular character was a little overrated. Just because his looks appealed to female audience (those constant topless scenes...) and the mysterious brooding type happened to be the subject of Buffy's schoolgirl fantasies and then became her first (their little sexfest ending in disaster), didn't make him any more cool then the other, less supernatural characters of the show. He was never one of my favorite Buffy main protagonists (though I came to like him somehow in Angel's first 2,5 seasons) and to this day I find the whole Bangel hype to be blown out of proportion and kinda cliched/boring (only Willoz seemed to be more predictable and I still don't get it why we haven't seen any double dates between two couples in season 3?).

 

It never ceases to amaze me how despite Angel being a monster with history of extreme violence lasting for over a century (abstaining from killings only due to the old Gypsy curse), despite him staying away during Buffy's first encounters with vamps in Sunnydale and initially choosing to mope alone at his apartment instead of helping the Slayer in Prophecy Girl, despite constant displays of jealousy, possessiveness and control-freakery (while stalking Buffy or leading the AI/W&H), despite the reign of terror following the rise of Angelus 2.0 with the attempts of murder and actual murders (Jenny, Kendra and countless unnamed victims didn't deserve to live according to the show's writing staff, unlike our babyseal-faced Deadboy) and many other questionable actions, he's still considered a "good guy", one of the best Buffyverse characters and such a great choice for Buffy (unlike, say, Riley or Xander). It kinda shocked me that his demise (though not permanent) in Becoming, Part 2 was met by many in the fandom as a bigger loss than the tragic death of Jenny Calendar in Passion, and that people still hate Xander for telling Buffy to kick Captain Forehead's murderous and torturous ass before the final confrontation (although his words played no role in the battle's outcome, Angelus' own stupid actions did).

And in spite of Buffy/Angel story arc screaming pedo from the very start (240-plus something-years old vampire having boners just by looking at the underage girl), that "romance" is still viewed as almost the best in the series (the gorgeous love story, huh?) and continues to attract billions of 'shippers

Yours truly finds it quite, I dunno, disturbing that because Buffy was madly in love with her undead boyfriend #1 (while Willow adored and Giles tolerated him), it meant that the Deadboy was somehow better/superior to the others. To this very day many fans strongly dislike Xander for his verbal insults directed at Slayer's loverboy, but are totally OK with Angel physically attacking his rival and leaving him lying unconscious on the city street at night (!) in Enemies, or eventually destroying other people's lives while fighting his "good fight" (does anyone remember Kate Lockley?).

The fact is that the line between Angel and Angelus has always been very-very thin (as was proven in Angel's season 4, when Angelus - luckily lame version of him - came out to play for the third time). And that moment alone is more than enough not to treat Captain Forehead as totally positive type, placing him above non-bloodsucking characters, the ones without excessive body count in the past. One of the few things I really liked about Angel is that, despite being almost everyone's favorite baby seal, he never stole the spotlight - neither as part of Team Buffy nor post-Sunnydale (of all his rare appearences in the series after Graduation, Part 2  only Pangs worked for me).

Edited September 5, 2018 by lembergwatcher

[Joe Hellandback]

6 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

From Liam, the 18th century Irish playboy, through the ruthless bloodsucking Angelus, leader of  the Whirlwind, to ensouled vampire Angel, cursed to walk through the world in search of redemption, to mysterious Angel, the associated member of the SG and Buffy's first lover. From Angelus 2.0, through the prisoner in the hell dimension, to once again ensouled Angel brought back to Sunnydale. From the head of a supernatural detective agency "helping the helpless" in L.A. to the fighter in his own right, to the head of Angel Investigation for the second time. From Angelus 3.0 to the manager of  Wolfram & Hart Los Angeles branch...  For over two centuries Angel(us) was many things...

 

I always thought this particular character was a little overrated. Just because his looks appealed to female audience (those constant topless scenes...) and the mysterious brooding type happened to be the subject of Buffy's schoolgirl fantasies and then became her first (their little sexfest ending in disaster), didn't make him any more cool then the other, less supernatural characters of the show. He was never one of my favorite Buffy main protagonists (though I came to like him somehow in Angel's first 2,5 seasons) and to this day I find the whole Bangel hype to be blown out of proportion and kinda cliched/boring (only Willoz seemed to be more predictable and I still don't get it why we haven't seen any double dates between two couples in season 3?).

 

It never ceases to amaze me how despite Angel being a monster with history of extreme violence lasting for over a century (abstaining from killings only due to the old Gypsy curse), despite him staying away during Buffy's first encounters with vamps in Sunnydale and initially choosing to mope alone at his apartment instead of helping the Slayer in Prophecy Girl, despite constant displays of jealousy, possessiveness and control-freakery (while stalking Buffy or leading the AI/W&H), despite the reign of terror following the rise of Angelus 2.0 with the attempts of murder and actual murders (Jenny, Kendra and countless unnamed victims didn't deserve to live according to the show's writing staff, unlike our babyseal-faced Deadboy) and many other questionable actions, he's still considered a "good guy", one of the best Buffyverse characters and such a great choice for Buffy (unlike, say, Riley or Xander). It kinda shocked me that his demise (though not permanent) in Becoming, Part 2 wasl met by many in the fandom as a bigger loss than the tragic death of Jenny Calendar in Passion, and that people still hate Xander for telling Buffy to kick Captain Forehead's murderous and torturous ass before the final confrontation (although his words played no role in the battle's outcome, Angelus' own stupid actions did).

And in spite of Buffy/Angel story arc screaming pedo from the very start (240-plus something-years old vampire having boners just by looking at the underage girl), that "romance" is still viewed as almost the best in the series (the gorgeous love story, huh?) and continues to attract billions of 'shippers

Yours truly finds it quite, I dunno, disturbing that because Buffy was madly in love with her undead boyfriend #1 (while Willow adored and Giles tolerated him), it meant that the Deadboy was somehow better/superior to the others. To this very day many fans strongly dislike Xander for his verbal insults directed at Slayer's loverboy, but are totally OK with Angel physically attacking his rival and leaving him lying unconscious on the city street at night (!) in Enemies, or eventually destroying other people's lives while fighting his "good fight" (does anyone remember Kate Lockley?).

The fact is that the line between Angel and Angelus has always been very-very thin (as was proven in Angel's season 4, when Angelus - luckily lame version of him - came out to play for the third time). And that moment alone is more than enough not to treat Captain Forehead as totally positive type, placing him above non-bloodsucking characters, the ones without excessive body count in the past. One of the few things I really liked about Angel is that, despite being almost everyone's favorite baby seal, he never stole the spotlight - neither as part of Team Buffy nor post-Sunnydale (of all his rare appearences in the series after Graduation, Part 2  only Pangs worked for me).

Not a 'paedo', possibly an ephebophile but who isn't? Besides Buffy certainly has a type (as does SMG), taller and older and he fits the bill. I liked Angel and his relationship with Buffy was genuinely romantic (unlike a certain vampire series which took the idea and rewrote it for soppy 13 year old girls). He was melodramatic but also deadpan funny and occasionally a goof. Where Angel as a character really takes off of course is on his own show, he's no longer just an adjunct to Buffy and becomes much more interesting.  

[Halting Hex]

If by "interesting", you mean a total selfish waste who completely gives up on "helping the hopeless" and gets every human who tried to help him killed, well then, okay.  (I hate the Angel of the last two seasons of his own show so fucking much. I mean, when you make Spike look good by comparison…)

Here's a podcaster ripping Brood Boy a nice new one, in his introduction to Pangs/I Will Remember You:

Quote

I don't even want to write about these. Angel is just the worst. He is everything I hate about immature men with savior complexes. Buffy is dealing with shit and he shows up, and not only does he "protect" (she's fucking fine) but he tries to do it without her finding out, and he ropes all her friends into it. And that gets at the heart of what Angel wants. It's not that he wants to brood and suffer, he wants the world to see him brood and suffer and feel like he's such an amazing dude that doesn't deserve this! Fuck him. And then it gets worse. God I can't even. Not finishing this description. Just listen.

Heh.  And well-said.

[Joe Hellandback]

28 minutes ago, Halting Hex said:

If by "interesting", you mean a total selfish waste who completely gives up on "helping the hopeless" and gets every human who tried to help him killed, well then, okay.  (I hate the Angel of the last two seasons of his own show so fucking much. I mean, when you make Spike look good by comparison…)

Here's a podcaster ripping Brood Boy a nice new one, in his introduction to Pangs/I Will Remember You:

Heh.  And well-said.

He doesn't get everyone killed, 3 out of 4 are very much alive. And he is busy stopping the apocalypse. 

[Halting Hex]

Cordelia dead; Angel never visited her in the hospital (he and Wesley don't know where her room is when they arrive at the start of You're Welcome).

Fred dead, her soul completely destroyed, due to Angel's massive incompetence.  How does he bring FUCKING SPIKE to the "hole in the world" rather than say, Fred, who needs the Illyria sucked out of her, or the sarcophagus that's the source of Illyria?  I always just imagine the conversation going like this:

Quote

DROGYN:  No problem, just toss the sarcophagus in there and we're good to go.

ASSHOLE:  D'Oh!

Wesley dead, essentially a suicide.  Angel fomented Wes's fractured mental state (via the mind-wipe) and facilitated his death in battle by sending him alone to face Vail.  (He and Illyria could easily have beaten Vail and whomever Illyria was fighting sequentially; there was no reason to split them up.)

Gunn dying, so severely wounded that he'll be dead within 10 minutes, per Not Fade Away.  Becomes a vampire per the comics, I'm told.

Lindsay dead.  Angel orders his assassination.  Because Angelus and FUCKING SPIKE can be redeemed, but never Lindsay.  Oh, fuck me.

-------------------

Meanwhile, Lorne gets excused from the final battle after carrying out his hit, Harmony gets a letter of recommendation (despite betraying the gang), and Spike and Illyria get to walk into moonrise with Our Hero, who fights to make sure his little demon-spawn, Conner-Wonner, is safe as houses.  Save five demons, kill five humans, that's Angel's impact on the people around him.  Yay?

[Loandbehold]

Halting Hex

Quote

 

Let us not forget that the whole "Final Battle" is an exercise in futility. Angel knows the best they can hope for is a pyric victory. So, he basically brings an army from hell down to LA, a city of several million people, who will serve as chum once Angel and company can no longer fight. Also, Angel got werewolf woman out of town, which was very nice, but if he didn't personally know you, lotsa luck suckers! As much as people hated Chosen, I thought Not Fade Away was worse for this reason.

 

Angel, Angel, Angel. Putting aside the 240 year old stalking and perving on a 16 year old, there was, as others have said, his jealousy of Xander. At least twice he deliberately put Xander in positions where he could have easily been killed.

[Joe Hellandback]

18 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Cordelia dead; Angel never visited her in the hospital (he and Wesley don't know where her room is when they arrive at the start of You're Welcome).

Fred dead, her soul completely destroyed, due to Angel's massive incompetence.  How does he bring FUCKING SPIKE to the "hole in the world" rather than say, Fred, who needs the Illyria sucked out of her, or the sarcophagus that's the source of Illyria?  I always just imagine the conversation going like this:

Wesley dead, essentially a suicide.  Angel fomented Wes's fractured mental state (via the mind-wipe) and facilitated his death in battle by sending him alone to face Vail.  (He and Illyria could easily have beaten Vail and whomever Illyria was fighting sequentially; there was no reason to split them up.)

Gunn dying, so severely wounded that he'll be dead within 10 minutes, per Not Fade Away.  Becomes a vampire per the comics, I'm told.

Lindsay dead.  Angel orders his assassination.  Because Angelus and FUCKING SPIKE can be redeemed, but never Lindsay.  Oh, fuck me.

-------------------

Meanwhile, Lorne gets excused from the final battle after carrying out his hit, Harmony gets a letter of recommendation (despite betraying the gang), and Spike and Illyria get to walk into moonrise with Our Hero, who fights to make sure his little demon-spawn, Conner-Wonner, is safe as houses.  Save five demons, kill five humans, that's Angel's impact on the people around him.  Yay?

You don't know that. maybe they moved her? You can't blame Angel for Fred's death, plus they couldn't move her, what if she was infectious? Better to leave her at the WR&H lab where they might be able to help her. Wes sacrificed himself in battle as Angel and all the rest did

 And SCREW Lindsay! Spike and Angel's problem was when they didn't have their souls. Lindsay's problem was that he did have a soul and was still evil, hence why Lorne of all people kills him AFTER hearing him sing, not leaving any doubt.

 Read a couple of interesting fics where Harmony reads out Angel's reference letter, one of which makes her burst into flames, another of which restores her soul.  

15 hours ago, Loandbehold said:

Halting Hex

Angel, Angel, Angel. Putting aside the 240 year old stalking and perving on a 16 year old, there was, as others have said, his jealousy of Xander. At least twice he deliberately put Xander in positions where he could have easily been killed.

Like I said, this series is an ephebophile's dream and I figure they have an exemption . The tension between Xander and Angel was mutual. 

[Loandbehold]

8 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

The tension between Xander and Angel was mutual. 

I never said it wasn't. However, one was a teenager and they other had lived for a couple of centuries. I think the elder should be held accountable and not have his actions excused especially when the teenager is often excoriated for his behavior.

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎07‎/‎09‎/‎2018 at 6:59 PM, Loandbehold said:

I never said it wasn't. However, one was a teenager and they other had lived for a couple of centuries. I think the elder should be held accountable and not have his actions excused especially when the teenager is often excoriated for his behavior.

To be fair Liam was a teenager when he was sired, then Angelus and then he didn't know what he was for a long time. 

[Loandbehold]

8 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

To be fair Liam was a teenager when he was sired, then Angelus and then he didn't know what he was for a long time. 

For 100 years Angel no longer had Angelus driving the car. At some point during those 100 years he should have learned maturity. If he didn't that's on him and I will not excuse him for it.

[illdoc]

11 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

To be fair Liam was a teenager when he was sired,

I believe he was around 26 when he was sired, and, given the time he lived in, could hardly be considered a "teenager" (men his age would have been out of "high school" about 10+ years).

[Melancholy]

On 9/6/2018 at 9:55 AM, Halting Hex said:

Cordelia dead; Angel never visited her in the hospital (he and Wesley don't know where her room is when they arrive at the start of You're Welcome).

Fred dead, her soul completely destroyed, due to Angel's massive incompetence.  How does he bring FUCKING SPIKE to the "hole in the world" rather than say, Fred, who needs the Illyria sucked out of her, or the sarcophagus that's the source of Illyria?  I always just imagine the conversation going like this:

Wesley dead, essentially a suicide.  Angel fomented Wes's fractured mental state (via the mind-wipe) and facilitated his death in battle by sending him alone to face Vail.  (He and Illyria could easily have beaten Vail and whomever Illyria was fighting sequentially; there was no reason to split them up.)

Gunn dying, so severely wounded that he'll be dead within 10 minutes, per Not Fade Away.  Becomes a vampire per the comics, I'm told.

Lindsay dead.  Angel orders his assassination.  Because Angelus and FUCKING SPIKE can be redeemed, but never Lindsay.  Oh, fuck me.

-------------------

Meanwhile, Lorne gets excused from the final battle after carrying out his hit, Harmony gets a letter of recommendation (despite betraying the gang), and Spike and Illyria get to walk into moonrise with Our Hero, who fights to make sure his little demon-spawn, Conner-Wonner, is safe as houses.  Save five demons, kill five humans, that's Angel's impact on the people around him.  Yay?

Agreed! Angel is a selfish, disloyal, cruel sack of garbage past S1 on his show. To add:

Cordelia- When Amnesia!Cordelia started acting strangely in S4, Angel never questioned if she was all right or traumatized from her life as a Higher Power. He just slowly started resenting her because she wasn't properly performing as his yes-woman/love interest. When she slept with Connor, he kicked them both out in the middle of an apocalypse without a hearing from Cordelia or even seeing Connor. Angel is SUCH a devoted father that he would smother Wesley in the hospital- but apparently, not devoted enough that he would give his son a home in the middle of a rain of fire if his son was fucking Cordelia. And he didn't love Cordelia enough to give her a roof over her head in the middle of the rain of fire. Then even when Cordelia talked her way back onto the team in Long Day's Journey, Angel, again, doesn't try to talk to Cordelia to figure out why she'd sleep with a boy whose diapers she changed. Instead, Angel's solution is to dangle Gwen as a romantic rival because his ego requires a Love Triangle. 

Then when the gang learned a demon parasite took over Cordelia, Angel's first and last instinct is to kill Cordelia instead of trying to treat her. Just like several eps prior, Willow offered her mystical help to the AI gang if they needed it but Angel never called Willow to assist with trying to take out the parasite/Jasmine without killing Cordelia or with Cordelia's later mystical coma. Instead, he just dumped her in W&H's hospital and forgot about her until she woke up to stroke his ego. (But when Fred was dying and all of the guys were competing on who can Most Dramatically Save Fred, Angel threw a snit that Willow wasn't waiting by her phone to receive his call for help. "Can you get her astral down here?") Cordelia spent her years in LA fighting W&H. HELL NO, she did not consent to being dumped in a W&H hospital even if they were handing out manicures. 

Fred/Wesley/Gunn- Fred died because she was working at W&H. I don't believe that Fred and Wesley certainly and Gunn and Lorne probably truly consented to work at W&H. Angel pushed his gang to consent by (a) wiping and inevitably altering the memories of a sea-change year and (b) bulldozing his choice as a "executive decision" directly over Fred's objections to working there and Wesley's lack of commitment to working there. I'd think the gang didn't properly consent just because of the mindwipe even if the mindwipe just eliminated Connor memories. Certainly with Wesley, just eliminating Connor dramatically changes Wesley's personality and feelings about following Angel's lead. However, it's particularly stunning that Angel didn't re-set the gang's make-up to pre-Connor. Because if Angel did that, Wesley would be the Boss and would have the final say on working at W&H. Instead, Angel and Vail somehow eliminated Connor but also displaced Wesley from his position as Boss. 

Wesley/Gunn- There was no reason to provoke the Senior Partners into an apocalyptic fight. @Halting Hex correctly describes how the tactics were stupid and seemingly designed to kill the non-powered humans. However, Angel never articulated why the world would be better off by the gang fighting the Senior Partners at this moment. It was designed and even sold as just as futile, stupid, suicidal gesture. The gang wasn't rescuing anything of value. They didn't have a clear strategy to eliminate a threat that had any chance of winning. The humans were just the canon fodder so that Angel could feel like a BIG GUY making his LAST STAND. And Angel felt the need to do this BECAUSE he already had sold out his team's principles by signing onto W&H. That's how he got Fred killed and assigned Cordelia's medical/mystical care to the series' villains- so killing the team's women. Then, Angel decided to get his own back and feel good about himself by getting the men on his team killed. 

Edited September 9, 2018 by Melancholy

[Joe Hellandback]

19 hours ago, Loandbehold said:

For 100 years Angel no longer had Angelus driving the car. At some point during those 100 years he should have learned maturity. If he didn't that's on him and I will not excuse him for it.

You learn maturity through interacting with others, Angel deliberately avoided them. 

15 hours ago, illdoc said:

I believe he was around 26 when he was sired, and, given the time he lived in, could hardly be considered a "teenager" (men his age would have been out of "high school" about 10+ years).

Don't think they had 'High School' as we know it today in Georgian times. Plus as we see Liam is very immature. 

12 hours ago, Melancholy said:

Agreed! Angel is a selfish, disloyal, cruel sack of garbage past S1 on his show. To add:

Cordelia- When Amnesia!Cordelia started acting strangely in S4, Angel never questioned if she was all right or traumatized from her life as a Higher Power. He just slowly started resenting her because she wasn't properly performing as his yes-woman/love interest. When she slept with Connor, he kicked them both out in the middle of an apocalypse without a hearing from Cordelia or even seeing Connor. Angel is SUCH a devoted father that he would smother Wesley in the hospital- but apparently, not devoted enough that he would give his son a home in the middle of a rain of fire if his son was fucking Cordelia. And he didn't love Cordelia enough to give her a roof over her head in the middle of the rain of fire. Then even when Cordelia talked her way back onto the team in Long Day's Journey, Angel, again, doesn't try to talk to Cordelia to figure out why she'd sleep with a boy whose diapers she changed. Instead, Angel's solution is to dangle Gwen as a romantic rival because his ego requires a Love Triangle. 

Then when the gang learned a demon parasite took over Cordelia, Angel's first and last instinct is to kill Cordelia instead of trying to treat her. Just like several eps prior, Willow offered her mystical help to the AI gang if they needed it but Angel never called Willow to assist with trying to take out the parasite/Jasmine without killing Cordelia or with Cordelia's later mystical coma. Instead, he just dumped her in W&H's hospital and forgot about her until she woke up to stroke his ego. (But when Fred was dying and all of the guys were competing on who can Most Dramatically Save Fred, Angel threw a snit that Willow wasn't waiting by her phone to receive his call for help. "Can you get her astral down here?") Cordelia spent her years in LA fighting W&H. HELL NO, she did not consent to being dumped in a W&H hospital even if they were handing out manicures. 

Fred/Wesley/Gunn- Fred died because she was working at W&H. I don't believe that Fred and Wesley certainly and Gunn and Lorne probably truly consented to work at W&H. Angel pushed his gang to consent by (a) wiping and inevitably altering the memories of a sea-change year and (b) bulldozing his choice as a "executive decision" directly over Fred's objections to working there and Wesley's lack of commitment to working there. I'd think the gang didn't properly consent just because of the mindwipe even if the mindwipe just eliminated Connor memories. Certainly with Wesley, just eliminating Connor dramatically changes Wesley's personality and feelings about following Angel's lead. However, it's particularly stunning that Angel didn't re-set the gang's make-up to pre-Connor. Because if Angel did that, Wesley would be the Boss and would have the final say on working at W&H. Instead, Angel and Vail somehow eliminated Connor but also displaced Wesley from his position as Boss. 

Wesley/Gunn- There was no reason to provoke the Senior Partners into an apocalyptic fight. @Halting Hex correctly describes how the tactics were stupid and seemingly designed to kill the non-powered humans. However, Angel never articulated why the world would be better off by the gang fighting the Senior Partners at this moment. It was designed and even sold as just as futile, stupid, suicidal gesture. The gang wasn't rescuing anything of value. They didn't have a clear strategy to eliminate a threat that had any chance of winning. The humans were just the canon fodder so that Angel could feel like a BIG GUY making his LAST STAND. And Angel felt the need to do this BECAUSE he already had sold out his team's principles by signing onto W&H. That's how he got Fred killed and assigned Cordelia's medical/mystical care to the series' villains- so killing the team's women. Then, Angel decided to get his own back and feel good about himself by getting the men on his team killed. 

Ok, a little bit overwhelmed by that rant, you make some good points but give Captain Forehead a break. It was CC who decided to move out of the hotel and Jasmine was pretty darn ingenious at fooling everyone, even Lorne. 

[Loandbehold]

5 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

You learn maturity through interacting with others, Angel deliberately avoided them. 

And that was totally his decision. He doesn't get a pass for that. If he does, should he get a pass for everything? If Xander's held accountable for his actions re Angel, then Angel must be held accountable for his towards Xander. Too often he is not and his behavior is rationalized away. 

[Joe Hellandback]

19 hours ago, Loandbehold said:

And that was totally his decision. He doesn't get a pass for that. If he does, should he get a pass for everything? If Xander's held accountable for his actions re Angel, then Angel must be held accountable for his towards Xander. Too often he is not and his behavior is rationalized away. 

You have to think of the things Angelus did and how tortured Angel is by it, becoming a recluse seems an eminently sensible way of coping. 

[Melancholy]

On 9/10/2018 at 5:21 AM, Joe Hellandback said:

You learn maturity through interacting with others, Angel deliberately avoided them. 

Don't think they had 'High School' as we know it today in Georgian times. Plus as we see Liam is very immature. 

Ok, a little bit overwhelmed by that rant, you make some good points but give Captain Forehead a break. It was CC who decided to move out of the hotel and Jasmine was pretty darn ingenious at fooling everyone, even Lorne. 

That is true that Cordelia decided to move out the Hyperion. I still think Angel had a duty to leave his hotel open to Cordelia and Connor as a refuge in the middle of an apocalypse. I stand by what I wrote earlier than Angel should have seen that Cordelia was clearly affected by her mysterious life as a Higher Power and tried to help her. 

Jasmine kept people confused on the identity of the villain until late in the season.  Lorne couldn't detect Jasmine when Cordy sang. However, Jasmine didn't have the power to brainwash the gang into doing anything until Shiny Happy People/The Magic Bullet. Aside from that, these are independent minded characters who made choices based on their feelings. Angel made a choice to only see Cordelia as a slut who did him wrong who should be thrown out in an apocalypse instead of who she was, a woman infected by her life as a Higher Power who needed help. Then when Angel realized Jasmine infected Cordelia, Angel made stupid, self-centered choices to try killing Cordelia instead of trying to cure her. Then after Jasmine, Angel made a choice to throw Coma!Cordelia in a W&H hospital because Coma!Cordelia can't serve Angel's needs. 

[Loandbehold]

5 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

You have to think of the things Angelus did and how tortured Angel is by it, becoming a recluse seems an eminently sensible way of coping. 

After 20 or 30 years of brooding, he could have gone to see psychiatrists, psychologists, and / or therapists for the next 70 years to work out his ish-yews.. They all hold evening appointments. Not doing was his choice. So, no, I don't have to rationalize his behavior at all.

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎11‎/‎09‎/‎2018 at 4:28 PM, Melancholy said:

That is true that Cordelia decided to move out the Hyperion. I still think Angel had a duty to leave his hotel open to Cordelia and Connor as a refuge in the middle of an apocalypse. I stand by what I wrote earlier than Angel should have seen that Cordelia was clearly affected by her mysterious life as a Higher Power and tried to help her. 

Jasmine kept people confused on the identity of the villain until late in the season.  Lorne couldn't detect Jasmine when Cordy sang. However, Jasmine didn't have the power to brainwash the gang into doing anything until Shiny Happy People/The Magic Bullet. Aside from that, these are independent minded characters who made choices based on their feelings. Angel made a choice to only see Cordelia as a slut who did him wrong who should be thrown out in an apocalypse instead of who she was, a woman infected by her life as a Higher Power who needed help. Then when Angel realized Jasmine infected Cordelia, Angel made stupid, self-centered choices to try killing Cordelia instead of trying to cure her. Then after Jasmine, Angel made a choice to throw Coma!Cordelia in a W&H hospital because Coma!Cordelia can't serve Angel's needs. 

Not just Angel remember, everyone else as well! I don't think Angel was that harsh on CC, they were almost together and then she takes up with his teenage son?

On ‎11‎/‎09‎/‎2018 at 4:42 PM, Loandbehold said:

After 20 or 30 years of brooding, he could have gone to see psychiatrists, psychologists, and / or therapists for the next 70 years to work out his ish-yews.. They all hold evening appointments. Not doing was his choice. So, no, I don't have to rationalize his behavior at all.

And tell them what? "Yeah I'm a mass murdering 200 year old vampire"?

[Loandbehold]

3 minutes ago, Joe Hellandback said:

And tell them what? "Yeah I'm a mass murdering 200 year old vampire"?

If he has to. I just want him to so SOMETHING to grow the fuck up. Say those are his dreams. Instead, he broods. In the end I won't excuse him for his behavior. When he does bad, I call him on it.

[Joe Hellandback]

23 hours ago, Loandbehold said:

If he has to. I just want him to so SOMETHING to grow the fuck up. Say those are his dreams. Instead, he broods. In the end I won't excuse him for his behavior. When he does bad, I call him on it.

Arguably the whole of the series IS about Angel's growth as a 'person'?

[Melancholy]

6 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Arguably the whole of the series IS about Angel's growth as a 'person'?

Well, I say Angel became worse and worse over his series. He was far more likable in S1 when there was hope that getting his own mission and friends would make a positive impact. However, he grew arrogant from the mission and abused his friends. However, I go round and round with myself on whether that was intended and Angel is actually an anti hero. 

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎14‎/‎09‎/‎2018 at 12:25 AM, Melancholy said:

Well, I say Angel became worse and worse over his series. He was far more likable in S1 when there was hope that getting his own mission and friends would make a positive impact. However, he grew arrogant from the mission and abused his friends. However, I go round and round with myself on whether that was intended and Angel is actually an anti hero. 

He does grow but his past catches up with him and he can't shake it. He becomes more ruthless over time but he still cares, he's cynical.