All Episodes Talk: Saving People, Hunting Things

[catrox14]

I think it's pretty established that as adults they've gotten physical and have hit below the belt verbally as well, my point was that it made sense to me that Carver wrote an episode that IMO contradicts Dean's behavior in every other childhood flashback we've seen. MMV

 

I think the Christmas episode was more from Sam's POV just like most of s3 was.

[AwesomO4000]

I just had to look up who wrote A Very Supernatural Christmas after your comments on Phantom Traveler and Asylum in regards Sam's characterization and color me not at all surprised it was Jeremy Carver. The single childhood flashback wherein Dean doesn't act protective, caring and selfless towards Sam, the episode I had almost completely forgotten about was written by Carver, that explains a lot.

 

I think there was only one other episode with flashbacks before this one unless I'm forgetting something.

 

If it makes you feel any better though, in this same episode, young Dean is also an awesome brother in that he tries to give little Sam a real Christmas. In another flashback, young Dean steals presents and Christmas lights and decorations so that little Sam can have a Christmas since John obviously doesn't care enough to come home to give them one (nor had John prepared ahead of time in any way in case he wasn't going to be home in time). Dean does this even though he is sad himself that John isn't going to show up and there is no one there to do the same for him. Little Sam is a bit whiny about it, so he doesn't come off looking like the best brother either, but he was a kid, and Dean did accidentally steal him a Sparkle Barbie (which hee) - but adult Sam remembers this with new insight as to exactly how hard Dean tried to make his childhood happy, and it is what convinces adult Sam to do the same for Dean now and give Dean a Christmas, even though it's sad for Sam (because it will be their last Christmas together).

 

I really did like this episode myself. It was back when Carver was writing episodes that brought the brothers together rather than ones that forced them apart - like "We Need to Talk About Kevin" where Carver wasn't exactly kind to Sam's character, so I can understand your complaint about his writing sometimes.

[SueB]

I BAWLED at A Very Supernatural Christmas and thought both brothers were 1) realistic and 2) the best little kids & brothers in the whole wide world thankyouverymuch

[BlueMeanie]

A Very Supernatural Christmas is one of my favorite episodes.  I cried too SueB.  I also really enjoy the torture scene because I'm evil and it's funny.

[catrox14]

I BAWLED at A Very Supernatural Christmas and thought both brothers were 1) realistic and 2) the best little kids & brothers in the whole wide world thankyouverymuch

I don't cry until the very end with the closing scene and then it hits me...Oh shit..Dean is on his way to Hell.

[AwesomO4000]

I meant to respond to this earlier and got distracted (that's an annoying new thing with my brain in its present state - hate it.)

 

I probably get more protective of Dean on the intelligence thing because I have spent my entire fucking life being made to feel like I am less than intellectually because I am a blonde woman. The shit people assume about you because of how you look is unrelenting. It sucks.

 

That does suck. I can understand your being protective. I can't say that I entirely understand your situation, but I can say that if it makes you feel any better, it wasn't much fun being seen as the "smart one" either... That came with its own set of annoying assumptions and stereotypes.

[catrox14]

I meant to respond to this earlier and got distracted (that's an annoying new thing with my brain in its present state - hate it.)

 

 

That does suck. I can understand your being protective. I can't say that I entirely understand your situation, but I can say that if it makes you feel any better, it wasn't much fun being seen as the "smart one" either... That came with its own set of annoying assumptions and stereotypes.

Heh. It's funny because my field of work was tech support. And when I would meet clients in person after speaking with them on the phone, they would always say "Oh you weren't like anything I expected. Inevitibaly it would be, I pictured you with dark hair and taller. Sigh. LOL

[catrox14]

13 hours ago, BlueMeanie said:

What if Cas takes over as "God" again, but actually does a good job this time?

 

17 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

The only problem with them ending up reunited with their family and friends in heaven is that they know it's not real.  They've been there enough and they know it's all smoke and mirrors and unless their memories are wiped clean, Dean for one would never be content with that.  It would feel almost like a prison to him, I think.  He just didn't seem impressed when Ash and Pamela were describing it to him.  I think he would hate it after a while.

 

This brings up something that has been really bothering me since Inside Man.  Does Dean even know that Sam elicited Bobby's help or that Bobby wrote Sam a letter asking him to not keep going with trying to get the Mark removed from Dean? Did Cas ever tell Dean?

Do Sam or Cas know Bobby's fate? The last time we saw actual!dead!Bobby was when Hannah and the minions came to deal with him after the jailbreak. 

This is a huge plot point that I think needs addressing. Sam needs to tell Dean because if Dean finds out some other way, man oh man, that won't be good for anyone.

[MysteryGuest]

I'm going to assume that since Bobby's in heaven, his punishment wouldn't be all that bad.  It seems odd that heaven would have a jail, since it's you know...heaven.  We saw Gadreel and Metatron in heaven's jail/prison, but I"m thinking that's reserved for rogue angels and not for your run of the mill resident.  Maybe they just took away his Tori Spelling book.

[SueB]

19 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

 Maybe they just took away his Tori Spelling book.

Oh the humanity!

[catrox14]

23 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I'm going to assume that since Bobby's in heaven, his punishment wouldn't be all that bad.  It seems odd that heaven would have a jail, since it's you know...heaven.  We saw Gadreel and Metatron in heaven's jail/prison, but I"m thinking that's reserved for rogue angels and not for your run of the mill resident.  Maybe they just took away his Tori Spelling book.

You give the angels too much credit IMO. How many of those angels wanted Cas, Dean and Metatron dead at various points even BEFORE the Metatron escape?

This wasn't Bobby just wanting to see his boys.  Bobby actively incited a near rebellion, allowed in Heaven's Most Wanted to breakout Heaven's Despot - Metatron.   I think that is going to have a serious consequence for Bobby. He might not go to the place they kept Gadreel and Metatron but IMO his punishment would be more than taking away a book. They probably took away all of his books, his safe space and his radio so there was no other potential method of communication with humanity, completely solitary confinement. Not only would they punish Bobby IMO they locked down security even further like we saw with the bed check device used the angle that Casifer smited.

Quote

BOBBY: Hell, I'm already dead. What's the worst that could happen?

I think it was probably worse than we think given the foreshadowing of Bobby's words. :(

He might have been cast out of Heaven altogether

Edited May 1, 2016 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

Heaven's always been screwy, IMO. It's not like the angels actually give a crap about the souls, they just need the power they create to power heaven. IMO, they only choose not to torture them or whatnot because God told them not to and angels don't seem to have generally have the capacity to go against God's will...generally, that is.

Anyhoo, I don't have any problem accepting there's a jail up there, but not sure they need one for humans since each person's heaven is already a jail. Plus, I'd think they'd be able to wipe Bobby's memories of his near-rebellion. I wouldn't be surprised that Bobby is unknowingly sitting back in his chair listening to Kenny Rodgers and reading that same Tori Spelling book.

[MysteryGuest]

I can see there being some punishment perhaps, but I don't see it as a "go to hell" offense.  Maybe he did have to spend some time in solitary confinement.  I'm betting we'll see him again next season in some form or another, so maybe we'll get to find out exactly what happened.

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I can see there being some punishment perhaps, but I don't see it as a "go to hell" offense.  Maybe he did have to spend some time in solitary confinement.  I'm betting we'll see him again next season in some form or another, so maybe we'll get to find out exactly what happened.

Hannah was no shrinking violet. He was pissed at Cas and wanted the Winchesters at the beginning of s11 and that does fit with the Hannah that wanted Cas to kill Dean to prove his loyalty to Heaven.  IMO Bobby would need to be made an example. Memory wiping is horrible too :(. YMMV

The bigger part of it for me is that Dean deserves to know what Sam and Cas did. I can cut Cas some slack for not telling Dean right away because Sam seemed to have convinced him that was the way to go. Then as thing spiraled Dean was off the deep end, beating the crap out of Cas and the next time Dean sees Cas is when he finds him suffering from the attack dog spell. Maybe he could have told him during his time in the bunker but the PTSD was pretty strong for Cas and then he becomes Lucifer's vessel.

Sam is a different story. He's had time to tell Dean this season. Sure they've been distracted but this is something that Sam would rake Dean over the coals for keeping from him, as we saw in s2 when Sam thought Dean not telling him about John's mission to Save Sam or Kill Sam was wrong. Sam said it was not Dean's secret to keep and that Dean owed it to Sam to tell him. This is basically the same thing.

I don't want this plot point to be dropped and I feel like it really needs to be addressed this season since the theme is "You Can't Outrun Your Past" . I'm gonna feel cheated if they make it all off screen.

[MysteryGuest]

I guess it doesn't bother me all that much.  Personally, I think Dean would have done the same thing, if the situation had been reversed.  And maybe I need to watch the episode again, because I didn't get the feeling that Bobby was in that much danger of being expelled from heaven, or made an example of.  I hear what you're saying, and certainly angels have not been portrayed in the best light on this show, so I suppose something could have happened.  I just think the show would have shown us that and made a bigger deal of it, if Bobby's safety was truly at risk.

[DittyDotDot]

19 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

The bigger part of it for me is that Dean deserves to know what Sam and Cas did. I can cut Cas some slack for not telling Dean right away because Sam seemed to have convinced him that was the way to go.

[...]

 

I don't want this plot point to be dropped and I feel like it really needs to be addressed this season since the theme is "You Can't Outrun Your Past" . I'm gonna feel cheated if they make it all off screen.

This is probably just me but I got the impression Sam did tell Dean what happened off-camera. I mean, Dean knew Cass was rolling around the countryside with Marvatron afterward. So, I would think Sam would've had to tell Dean how that happened. I wouldn't be surprised he didn't tell Dean about Bobby's letter, though--because, secrets and lies, ya know--but maybe he did? Just like with Billy the reaper's threats, it doesn't seem like Dean isn't in the know even though we didn't see Sam tell him.

Little side note: I'm sorry, it still amuses me up that Bobby, who is just energy at this point, could write a physical letter. Like Heaven keeps a stockpile of pens and paper just for this occasion. ;)

Edited May 2, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

In season 9, Dean kept the secret about Ezekiel and it nearly destroyed their relationship. That's even more like what Sam did here. Sn.  Even though I'm not a huge Bobby fan, Dean saw him as a 2nd father so to me this is a big deal for Dean.

Sam doesn't really have a compelling reason that I know of to not tell Dean other than not wanting to risk Dean's wrath.

Edited May 2, 2016 by catrox14

[catrox14]

11 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

This is probably just me but I got the impression Sam did tell Dean what happened off-camera. I mean, Dean knew Cass was rolling around the countryside with Marvatron afterward. So, I would think Sam would've had to tell Dean how that happened. I wouldn't be surprised he didn't tell Dean about Bobby's letter, though--because, secrets and lies, ya know--but maybe he did? Just like with Billy the reaper's threats, it doesn't seem like Dean isn't in the know even though we didn't see Sam tell him.

Little side note: I'm sorry, it still amuses me up that Bobby, who is just energy at this point, could write a physical letter. Like Heaven keeps a stockpile of pens and paper just for this occasion. ;)

 

And to me that is just lazy fucking writing in both cases. Given Bobby's importance to Dean there is not one good reason to keep that kind of dramatic scene off screen. None. Sorry but if that is how it plays out, I'll be pissed off.

[DittyDotDot]

I don't know, it was a private bit of advice from Bobby to Sam saying Sam should stop sneaking around behind his brother's back.It was secrets-and-lies last season, but the cat's out of the bag now, so I'm not sure why Dean would need to know about that letter now. Dean already knows Sam was sneaking around behind his back and I would imagine he could guess what Bobby's stance on that would be.

 

31 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

And to me that is just lazy fucking writing in both cases. Given Bobby's importance to Dean there is not one good reason to keep that kind of dramatic scene off screen. None. Sorry but if that is how it plays out, I'll be pissed off.

Well, I didn't say it was good, just that's my impression based on what came after.

 

ETA: It wouldn't be the first conversation to happen off-camera I felt should've been on. It seems like more interesting or important things happen off-camera than on lately.

Edited May 2, 2016 by DittyDotDot
Adding more drivel, as is my want. ;)

[MysteryGuest]

I don't put this into the same category as Dean tricking Sam into allowing Gadreel to possess him.  Allowing someone to basically commandeer your mind and body is a violation.  Demon possession is regarded as horrific by everyone, and unwilling angel possession isn't much better.  I totally get why Dean did it though, and didn't really have a problem with it at the time.  There isn't much Dean wouldn't do to save Sam.

Using Bobby to break Cas into heaven might have disrupted his fireside reading, but he helped them out willingly, and I have to think he probably even enjoyed it a bit.  He's been champing at the bit to get back in the action since he died.  Dean might be pissed for a minute or two, but it's not like they lied to Bobby or tricked him into anything.  He's a hunter, even as an angel.  That hasn't changed.

I suppose if we knew for certain that Bobby lost his place in heaven, I would feel differently, but I don't think that's the case.  At least I didn't think that was the case at the end of that episode.  They could certainly do a follow up storyline to show that he was punished more severely, and then we'd have a story.  Right now, I don't feel that we do.

Edited May 2, 2016 by MysteryGuest

[AwesomO4000]

6 hours ago, catrox14 said:

The bigger part of it for me is that Dean deserves to know what Sam and Cas did.
[snip]

Sam is a different story. He's had time to tell Dean this season. Sure they've been distracted but this is something that Sam would rake Dean over the coals for keeping from him, as we saw in s2 when Sam thought Dean not telling him about John's mission to Save Sam or Kill Sam was wrong. Sam said it was not Dean's secret to keep and that Dean owed it to Sam to tell him. This is basically the same thing.

I don't want this plot point to be dropped and I feel like it really needs to be addressed this season since the theme is "You Can't Outrun Your Past" . I'm gonna feel cheated if they make it all off screen.

For me, I don't think that these are really the same thing. Dean not telling Sam about what John said directly could potentially affect both Sam and Dean in that this was information that Sam might need to know about his situation. With Sam asking for Bobby's help, there is nothing left there that could affect their situation currently. It's done already. And as DittyDotDot said, Dean pretty much knows the situation, so Sam likely told him something, since Dean would ask.

I also agree with MysteryGuest that Dean would've done the same thing. He has done the same thing - or it's been discussed offscreen. One of the biggies for me is Mary's deal. As far as we know, Dean never told Sam the truth, and Sam still doesn't know why Mary's ghost told him that she was sorry. Even worse, despite keeping that from Sam, in the same conversation Dean got furious at Sam for not telling him about Sam's demon blood.

As far as I know, Dean also didn't tell Sam about Azazel insinuating to Dean that Sam came back wrong or any of the plans he had for Sam that Dean learned from the demon Casey. And one of the worst and with the least reason to keep from Sam, in my opinion, was what Dean learned in "The End." As far as we know, Dean didn't tell Sam anything about that even though not only was it potentially important information strategically, but it informed Dean's entire mindset, so Sam was working with Dean from a false starting point.

And if all or any of the above conversations happened offscreen, that wouldn't make me very happy as I think that these would've been important emotional buttons for Sam, especially the Mary one and the "The End" one. And I would I actually think that they were worse about having potentially important discussions offscreen in the early seasons than perhaps they are now.

Currently, I also would hate it if there was a story about Bobby getting thrown out of heaven, because that's all that Sam's character needs, is yet another screw up and something to blame on him. I think it's about time they give that a rest if you ask me. In my opinion, Sam has been the plot scapegoat enough as of late.

[MysteryGuest]

Unfortunately, I think that all of these things that we consider to be unresolved issues between the brothers are really just a matter of bad writing and lack of follow through by the writers and/or show runners.  I doubt that any of the issues you mentioned above, AwesomO4000, have been given even a moment's thought by the writers.  We look at them as huge secrets and betrayals against our favorite characters, but I don't think that was ever the intention.  I think we're supposed to assume the brothers talk all this shit out off camera.  It's a big assumption on their part, and it isn't very satisfying from the viewer's perspective, but I honestly do not see them addressing any of it at this point.

[catrox14]

This isn't Sam summoning Crowley or asking a witch for help.  Dean was livid when he learned that Charlie and Cas were involved and that was before he knew Charlie was dead. Sam made a choice to involve their second father who was at peace in Heaven. That is a big deal.

I don't believe for one minute Dean would have been okay with disrupting Bobby's Heaven to save him from the Mark. That would upset Dean more than anything else I can think of other than if Sam had tried to get John or Mary's help in Heaven. And I truly am not so sure that Dean would have done it either even to save Sam. Dean killing himself to save Sam, yeah, he'll do that in a heartbeat.

I don't think there is enough evidence to think it happened offscreen when we had onscreen situations when the show had a few opportunities to address that information textually and they didn't.

 

*** I conflated The Bad Seed and Our Little World (I do that a lot with these two episodes. I don't know why. LOL)

 Dean learns about Metatron in The Bad Seed.  Sam talks about Metatron being off the grid. The angels seem to think Metatron tricked Cas to escape but nothing is said about Sam and Cas having broken Metatron out of Heaven ( which is really weird) and the casualness of the conversation is doubly strange. And it's even MORE strange because this is the episode in which they capture Rowena and she tells Dean that she and Sam along with Cas made a deal that if she removes the Mark, Sam would kill Crowley AND that's when he learned that Rowena put the attack dog spell on Cas. Dean was pissed. No mention of Bobby's involvement.  Hhmmm another tick in my something is rotten in Denmark head!canon).

Then in Our Little World, Dean is pissed off that Cas let Metatron which is followed immediately by Cas and Sam questioning why Dean couldn't kill Amara. Again no discussion about Sam and Cas' nor Bobby's involvement is mentioned. IMO Cas' defensiveness and Sam side-eying Dean about Amara could be read as them deflecting the Metatron conversation to keep Dean from asking more questions like why and HOW Metatron is out of Heaven jail in the first place.

--Safe House: A full episode where Bobby is referenced throughout and it doesn't come up. 

To me that's either lazy writing or they just don't care about showing Dean's reaction OR for plot. character reasons yet to be revealed..I'm hoping for the latter and it happens this season but I'll settle for s12.

The worst part is that the whole point of Bobby helping to get Metatron out was to help Dean. But Metatron literally had nothing to do with removing the Mark in the end. It didn't help Dean at all. 

And yes I'm going to be a dog with a bone on this one.

Edited May 4, 2016 by catrox14

[MysteryGuest]

I wish I could share your concern over this one, Catrox, but I'm just not feeling it.  I'm sure Dean would have been pissed, since he was pissed about Sam involving Cas and Charlie, but I don't think it would have been relationship altering.  Sam and Dean do things to piss the other off all the time, so this would just be one more example.  I'm sure Dean would have expressed his anger at Sam for disturbing Bobby, and Sam would have shot right back with what he said about everyone involved in that debacle...they all love you and want to help.  I just don't see it going any further than that.

[AwesomO4000]

Brought over from the "Don't Call Me Shurley" episode thread:

Quote

It sounds like you think Sam was actually afraid of Dean.

I don't think Sam was afraid of Dean himself, but in my opinion, Sam was worried about damaging the relationship more than it already was. And I think he was afraid of disappointing Dean again. For me, Sam in season 5 was often deliberate with his communication. He told Dean things that in the past he might've tried to hide or lie about or waited until it got really bad - like in "My Bloody Valentine" when Sam told Dean about his addiction feelings fairly early on or when he got his idea to say "yes," he made sure to run it by Dean - and everyone else - when in the past, he might've just gone ahead and said that he was doing it.

This isn't the same as sharing his feelings though. I think Sam was more careful about that in season 5, because he knew how much he had already hurt Dean and he didn't want to do it again. "Point of No Return" was an example. I think in the past that might've turned into more of a fight - I actually think "Dark Side..." in the past would've turned into more of a fight also - but Sam was I think being a little more careful in season 5. Obviously that's just my interpretation and is in no way the only way to look at it.

[catrox14]

15 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Brought over from the "Don't Call Me Shurley" episode thread:

I don't think Sam was afraid of Dean himself, but in my opinion, Sam was worried about damaging the relationship more than it already was. And I think he was afraid of disappointing Dean again. For me, Sam in season 5 was often deliberate with his communication. He told Dean things that in the past he might've tried to hide or lie about or waited until it got really bad - like in "My Bloody Valentine" when Sam told Dean about his addiction feelings fairly early on or when he got his idea to say "yes," he made sure to run it by Dean - and everyone else - when in the past, he might've just gone ahead and said that he was doing it.

This isn't the same as sharing his feelings though. I think Sam was more careful about that in season 5, because he knew how much he had already hurt Dean and he didn't want to do it again. "Point of No Return" was an example. I think in the past that might've turned into more of a fight - I actually think "Dark Side..." in the past would've turned into more of a fight also - but Sam was I think being a little more careful in season 5. Obviously that's just my interpretation and is in no way the only way to look at it.

I gotcha.

Even after s5, I feel like Sam had plenty of chances to either tell Dean he kept it just as a healing thing or to even use it at some moment to show Dean that he did care about him and he believed in Dean. Heck he could have even thrown it in Dean's face as bone of contention.  I would have even bought him trotting it out in Brother's Keeper along with the pictures to talk Dean down. 

Heck I can see Soulless Sam throwing it in Dean's face just make Dean mad. And Samifer? He had a chance to rake Dean over the coals about the amulet then too. I mean if he had wanted to really hurt Dean about there lousy relationships.

I'm probably just not sentimental about it LOL.

[AwesomO4000]

Hee. I think early Dean would disagree with you, though. His face in "God God, Y'All" when Cas wanted to borrow it. You'd think Castiel was suggesting killing a puppy in front of children.

That's why I was so surprised when Dean threw it away like he did and attributed the meaning to that action that I did.

[Binns]

I'm not actually sure where to post this but Carver's new series was picked up so looks like there will be a new showrunner. 

[catrox14]

I haven't seen official confirmation of this yet. Do you have a link, @Binns

[Demented Daisy]

Not Binns, but:

http://tvline.com/2016/05/12/the-cw-series-orders-2016-riverdale-frequency-no-tomorrow/

[Binns]

That's the link the tweet I saw went to (holy terrible grammar). 

Wait! I lied. THIS is the one I saw. http://variety.com/2016/tv/news/cw-series-orders-riverdale-frequency-no-tomorrow-2016-17-season-1201773137/

[catrox14]

Thanks! Welp that's a big deal unless Carver is going to do both shows which I suspect he could I mean look at Greg Berlanti being the EP for Arrow, The Flash, Legends of Tomorrow, Supergirl and some other shows I can't think of.

[catrox14]

Holy crap. I have never seen these BTS photos of Dean in Hell. They are pretty disturbing. so Fair Warning:

JFC look at his wrists. I never realized Dean was strung up THROUGH his ankles and wrists like cruxificion style shit.  Also,Dean is wearing the Amulet here and I thought whoops but it's actually in the episode...sooo. how exactly did Sam get the amulet back and why did Dean have it on him in Hell?

Edited May 27, 2016 by catrox14
For some reason I can't get that last pic to post. Weird

[AwesomO4000]

48 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

JFC look at his wrists. I never realized Dean was strung up THROUGH his ankles and wrists like cruxificion style shit.  Also,Dean is wearing the Amulet here and I thought whoops but it's actually in the episode...sooo. how exactly did Sam get the amulet back and why did Dean have it on him in Hell?

Hell body: which in this case looks like how his body looked when he died. Remember that Dean's real body - which Sam took the amulet off of - was buried in Pontiac, Illinois.

Aside: hmmm. If hell and heaven bodies look like you looked when you die in this verse... this would tend to favor not dying too old. You'd have to look at yourself as old and wrinkly for all eternity.

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Hell body: which in this case looks like how his body looked when he died. Remember that Dean's real body - which Sam took the amulet off of - was buried in Pontiac, Illinois.

Aside: hmmm. If hell and heaven bodies look like you looked when you die in this verse... this would tend to favor not dying too old. You'd have to look at yourself as old and wrinkly for all eternity.

Yes I know Dean was buried and he dug himself out of his grave.  I didn't forget that like at all. Not one tiny little bit. To me, this was more like why would Dean have clothes or his amulet on his soul which is what gets tortured in Hell. But I was being facetious with my question.  Sorry if that didn't come across.

But has there ever really been any actual confirmation that a Hell body is a thing in this show?  I know that's a head!canon to explain how Sam was tortured in his own meatsuit by Lucifer, but I didn't think it really applied to all the other regular level tortured souls. 

[AwesomO4000]

Oops, sorry about that. I know that not everyone has thought about this particular thing as much as I have, so I wasn't sure about the facetious part.

As for your question - it's not been said specifically, but everyone we saw in heaven had a body, too, including as early in the show as when Sam and Dean went in season 5. And so did all of the people Sam saw in hell (in season 8), including Bobby. And Dean described his torture, and it sounded like it was a "body" being tortured and put back together again each day. A glowy soul wouldn't have the same effect as Dean described.

And maybe the hell body is recreated how your soul sees it? So if Dean saw himself with his amulet - because why wouldn't he? - well then his hell body would have an amulet. Even purgatory monster souls get a purgatory body as we saw with Benny (who became a glowy - something - after the spell to get carried by Dean out of purgatory), so I tend to think that the after death "bodies" are a common occurrence for all the realms for everybody.

And even the angels generally keep their meatsuits in heaven, I fanwank that the angels do that because it's easier than trying to convince their meatsuits to let them use them again - because after the first time most people would likely say "Forget that. I'm not doing that again." And as we saw in season 9, finding a meatsuit isn't always an easy thing for an angel to do. So logically that's actually not too difficult a fanwank there.

[DittyDotDot]

I don't think they have actual bodies in Heaven or Hell or wherever, the "bodies" are just projections made by their own minds of who they were on the earthly plane. Like how Lucifer appeared as Nick when he was in Hell, but to manifest on the earthly plane he'd need a body. So when Dean says they tore him apart everyday and put him back together whole, I think that was an illusion of how Dean experienced Hell--and it felt real to Dean--but that wasn't necessarily what was physically happening to his soul. 

In many ways, Heaven is what you make of it and Hell is what others force you make of it...if that makes any sense at all. 

[FlickChick]

13 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Holy crap. I have never seen these BTS photos of Dean in Hell. They are pretty disturbing. so Fair Warning:

JFC look at his wrists. I never realized Dean was strung up THROUGH his ankles and wrists like cruxificion style shit.  Also,Dean is wearing the Amulet here and I thought whoops but it's actually in the episode...sooo. how exactly did Sam get the amulet back and why did Dean have it on him in Hell?

I had seen this before on Supernatural.tv in the BTS thread. But it never ceases to amaze me what these guys will do for a great shot. I thought that this final shot (the CGI one, LOL) was one of best of the series. Kudos to Kim Manners and Kripke. When Dean was yelling "Sam" and then they went to the black screen and he yelled it again. Genius!

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

I had seen this before on Supernatural.tv in the BTS thread. But it never ceases to amaze me what these guys will do for a great shot. I thought that this final shot (the CGI one, LOL) was one of best of the series. Kudos to Kim Manners and Kripke. When Dean was yelling "Sam" and then they went to the black screen and he yelled it again. Genius!

Apparently, this was actually really painful for Jensen. Like physically painful. I remember reading that he had been trussed up like that for like 12 hours. Man.  That's remarkable.

[SueB]

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Apparently, this was actually really painful for Jensen. Like physically painful. I remember reading that he had been trussed up like that for like 12 hours. Man.  That's remarkable.

That's all I can see as well... that Jensen is actually in pain.  It WAS an awesome shot, however.

As for "hell bodies" I'm going to go with a Star Trek Holodeck theory for the afterlife.  Like the people who are dead are energy (souls) who take form in whatever form they (in Heaven) or possibly Hell wants them too. Matter is solid or not depending on the circumstances.  So in Hell, Dean is ripped apart and feels it but then "wham" is back whole again.  When an actual human, angel in a vessel, or demon in a meatsuit enters the realm of Heaven or Hell... THEY are solid and perceive everything else to be solid. But the denizen's physical state is an abstract of their energy based on circumstances. 

[MysteryGuest]

I'm watching season six's Family Matters, and I'm confused about something.  After Cas determines that Sam has no soul, he asks Dean to untie him from the chair.  Dean says no, and Sam says "I didn't want it to come to this", and just unties himself and stands up.  He then goes on to say "you're not going to hold me, not here, not in the panic room, etc."  How does Sam's not having a soul somehow give him superpowers to just untie himself or unlock himself from the panic room?  I never understood that scene and I still don't.  

Edited June 1, 2016 by MysteryGuest
Edit to add that I really did not like Sam's hair in season 6!!

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I'm watching season six's Family Matters, and I'm confused about something.  After Cas determines that Sam has no soul, he asks Dean to untie him from the chair.  Dean says no, and Sam says "I didn't want it to come to this", and just unties himself and stands up.  He then goes on to say "you're not going to hold me, not here, not in the panic room, etc."  How does Sam's not having a soul somehow give him superpowers to just until himself or unlock himself from the panic room?  I never understood that scene and I still don't.  

LOLOL. I have always had that same question. My head!canon is that Sam somehow had no pain threshold because of being soulless and he broke his own fingers or wrists or dislocated them to untie himself. But yes I have never understood this either.

[MysteryGuest]

But he admitted to feeling pain from his broken nose, so I think he still can feel, he just can't feel...  I don't know, it bothers me every time I watch this episode.  

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

But he admitted to feeling pain from his broken nose, so I think he still can feel, he just can't feel...  I don't know, it bothers me every time I watch this episode.  

Okay maybe he just has a higher pain tolerance when he's highly motivated. He was pretty much RoboSam at that point. And since he wasn't supposed to have anymore telekinetic powers, that's the only thing I can think of .

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Maybe because he was soulless, he had no compunction about tapping into his latent demonic powers?  Ya got me!

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

And since he wasn't supposed to have anymore telekinetic powers

Oops, just saw this - why wasn't he supposed to have any more telekinetic powers at this point?

[MysteryGuest]

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Okay maybe he just has a higher pain tolerance when he's highly motivated. He was pretty much RoboSam at that point. And since he wasn't supposed to have anymore telekinetic powers, that's the only thing I can think of .

It's as good a theory as any.  I'll have to watch more from that season to see if his powers continue.  I can't remember at this point.

[catrox14]

20 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Maybe because he was soulless, he had no compunction about tapping into his latent demonic powers?  Ya got me!

Oops, just saw this - why wasn't he supposed to have any more telekinetic powers at this point?

I think because he was supposedly cured of all that stuff when Cas raised him. At least I think that was the idea.

[SueB]

I just presume Sam was such a BadAss as a hunter that the first thing he did was untie himself and played possum until they got done with the testing. He also untied himself pretty quickly in #Thinman so I presume it's just a hunter skill they've developed. And he would do whatever it took to get out of the panic room.  Since Dean had already done it himself, he probably figured Sam would find a way.

[catrox14]

23 minutes ago, SueB said:

I just presume Sam was such a BadAss as a hunter that the first thing he did was untie himself and played possum until they got done with the testing. He also untied himself pretty quickly in #Thinman so I presume it's just a hunter skill they've developed. And he would do whatever it took to get out of the panic room.  Since Dean had already done it himself, he probably figured Sam would find a way.

So what about all the other times Sam doesn't untie himself?

[SueB]

16 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

So what about all the other times Sam doesn't untie himself?

It's like the transporters on Star Trek.... these things work when the plot needs them to and fails when the plot needs them to.