S03.E19: Choices

[Joe Hellandback]

The Good; Buffy does a heist movie. Some clever foreshadowing of events to come and some good strategising on the part of the gang, taking the offensive for once. The Faith and Willow showdown and Oz shows his love in a suitably taciturn manner. Love the diagram Willow makes of Oz and Xander, distinguishable by stick-figure Oz having a guitar.

The Bad; The creatures in the box look a bit ropey, Buffy takes 'inspiration' from Aliens not for the first time and not for the last.

Best line; Willow; "Sounds like your mom's in a state of denial" Buffy; "More like a continent"

Character death; Faith kills another human/demon? SDH loses another staff member, this time one of the security guards.

Shot; No but Faith kills the courier with her bow from Bad Girls.

Tied up; Buffy get's tangled in the wires, Willow gets captured but not tied up.

Women good/men bad; Cordy seems unnecessarily snarky about Willows acceptance from the universities but we'll understand more about that later.

Jeez!; Poor old security guard, what a way to go! Was I the only one who took a few seconds to comprehend what Faith meant by her 'cut through bone ' remark?

Calling Captain Subtext; The Faith/Willow showdown has a lot of the elements of two jealous lovers fighting over their shared object of desire. The Buffy and Willow rolling around on the ground at the end telling one another they love them is a slashficcer's dream.

Guantanamo Bay; Buffy beats up and interrogates the Mayor's limo driver before 'introducing him to Mr Pointy'. A tough call with the trade for Willow, if they had not gone through with it, Larry, Snyder, the Professor Faith kills, Harmony etc might never have died.

What the fanficcers thought?

Instead of fighting Buffy seduces The Mayor into giving up evil; 'Buffy the Mayor's Plaything'
 

Spoiler

Where's Dawn? How does she feel about Buffy going away to university? Happy to have more time to herself in the bathroom or will she miss not having her big sis around the place?

Questions and observations; Good ep, carrying the central storyline forwards whilst also accepting that life goes on outside the Hellmouth. The first time that most of the Scooby gang actually meet the Mayor. Cordy working in the shop is a shocker and no mistake. Joyce calls Buffy's Aunt Arlene, is she Joyce's sister or Hanks? Is she the mother of cousin Celia from 'Killed by Death'? The Mayor's comments on Buffy and Angel are true and Joyce will

Spoiler

say pretty much the same in the next episode.

 First appearance of Faith's knife which looks like something the Klingons would use on Star Trek.

Marks out of 10; 6/10

[Halting Hex]

1 hour ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Marks out of 10; 6/10

Say WHAT?  You offer no major criticism, yet give such a low score?  I understand that my 9 is influenced by my enjoyment more than critical analysis, but this is erring in the opposite direction, IMO.

("Although I'm fond, don't get me wrong, of you."  HAPPY SIGH FOREVER AND EVER.)

I will grant you that the Buffy/Angel plot is beyond boring and while it's nice that Buffy has finally met the season villain, episode 19 does seem a little late.  But even so.

("And once again, the gold medal in the 'Being Wrong' event goes to Xander 'I'm as Stupid as I Look' Harris.  Duke, Columbia, Colorado State*, USC.  Read 'em and weep, creep.")

Thou Shalt Not Disrespect Willow's Night for Suave.  Seriously.  Buffy kind of loves her, you know.

*-Colorado State? Not exactly in the same level of prominence as the other schools (or Buffy's acceptance to Northwestern).  I'm thinking there must have been a Golden Ram on the writing/production staff, and this was a shout out.

Ah, fuck it.  Screw the 9, TEN out of TEN.  Who needs logic?

[wendyg]

Re Colorado State, two words: Safety school.

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎17‎/‎07‎/‎2018 at 11:40 AM, Halting Hex said:

Say WHAT?  You offer no major criticism, yet give such a low score?  I understand that my 9 is influenced by my enjoyment more than critical analysis, but this is erring in the opposite direction, IMO.

("Although I'm fond, don't get me wrong, of you."  HAPPY SIGH FOREVER AND EVER.)

I will grant you that the Buffy/Angel plot is beyond boring and while it's nice that Buffy has finally met the season villain, episode 19 does seem a little late.  But even so.

("And once again, the gold medal in the 'Being Wrong' event goes to Xander 'I'm as Stupid as I Look' Harris.  Duke, Columbia, Colorado State*, USC.  Read 'em and weep, creep.")

Thou Shalt Not Disrespect Willow's Night for Suave.  Seriously.  Buffy kind of loves her, you know.

*-Colorado State? Not exactly in the same level of prominence as the other schools (or Buffy's acceptance to Northwestern).  I'm thinking there must have been a Golden Ram on the writing/production staff, and this was a shout out.

Ah, fuck it.  Screw the 9, TEN out of TEN.  Who needs logic?

I don't offer any criticism yet it doesn't have that many good points. No offence to Coloradans (?) but would you really give up California for there? Unless you were a keen skier? 

On ‎17‎/‎07‎/‎2018 at 12:55 PM, wendyg said:

Re Colorado State, two words: Safety school.

In that you mean a fallback uni?

[wendyg]

Yes. College-bound American high school students typically apply to 4-5 colleges/universities, one of which is a school they're pretty sure they can get into. (It might be a state-funded university in the state where they live, one where they know someone, or just a school where you know your test scores and grades are at or above their known admission standards).

[lembergwatcher]

That scene in the City Hall between Willow, Faith and the knife (or any other Willow scene involving suspence or confrontation)... Every time I watch it and hear Willow startin' to breathe heavily, it seems like Alyson Hannigan's sits beside me and breathes right into my ear... 

[Halting Hex]

Continuing my promo fetish:

[Halting Hex]

I've always been opposed to Wesley's "we have to destroy the Box, too bad for Willow" position, and not only because

Spoiler

it's the first surfacing of Wesley's stupid Daddy Issues, which lead him to make dumb choice after dumb choice, always deciding that if something is cold-hearted, it must therefore be "right".  Whether it's sacrificing the troops in Pylea or kidnapping Connor or unleashing Angelus or "killing" his "father" (the root of all this shit to begin with), it's the firmest indication that Wes never shows any true character growth, stubble aside.

There's the more basic issue that they really don't know what the Box is or how valuable it is to the Mayor or any practical considerations; it's foolish to sacrifice an irreplaceable asset in Willow for uncertain benefit.  Plus I love Willow and I know Buffy loves Willow, so fuck Wesley.

But I was thinking even further on this, and even from the purely-utilitarian perspective that Wesley wants to impose on her, it makes no sense for Buffy to do this, because it would completely undercut morale amongst everyone else.  How could Xander or Cordelia or Oz or whomever be willing to assist Buffy in the future, if they knew that Buffy had been willing to let Willow die for  "the cause"? The "soldiers down" model just doesn't work

Spoiler

, as Angel will soon find out.

Buffy needs her Willow…and the rest of the gang needs that kind of Buffy.  JMO.

[Melancholy]

I don't think the gang should have given up Willow for the Box. Because I agree that they don't know whether the Box is necessary, Willow is far more valuable than an unknown object, and the Scoobies still had time to foil the Ascension without sacrificing people. I also agree that it's horrible for morale and completely destructive to the power of the Scoobies, on both a moral and practical level. Heroes don't grow on trees. Child prodigy heroes with magic and tech/science skills don't grow on trees. Best friends don't grow on trees. 

However, I do think the gang should have brainstormed for two minutes on how to have their cake and eat it too. For starters, it's ridiculous that the gang didn't try to open or perform magical spells to determine the contents of the Box before trading. Even if they were going to trade for Willow (which I think they should have!), use this opportunity to gather intelligence on the Mayor. (LOL, like Willow did in captivity.) They should have also spent a little time trying to see if they could get Willow back without giving up the Box. Wesley took two positions in this debate. The position that they should destroy the Box (even if it means Willow dying) because it's a ticket to Buffy getting out is horrible. The position that he wants to help Willow too but they should find another way besides just automatically handing it back to the Mayor was reasonable. I appreciate that the gang was panicked about getting Willow back ASAP. However, Willow had the focus to turn her more dire captivity lemons into some information-gathering lemonade. The gang should have done the same.

Wesley's quite infuriating in all of this, though. When he got to Sunnydale, he was ready to sing like a canary to Balthezar to protect his kneecaps. However, he's already to sacrifice the actual life of Willow. And he argues that point in the grossest way possible- IMO dishonestly promising that Buffy can go away to school if Willow is sacrificed. And then, he basically pouts that Willow's pages better be important to pay the freight of her *life*. 

Spoiler

On AtS, though, I think it's far more complex than Wesley always default to the "cold-hearted" choice. He, first, wanted to redeem Faith and then, he gave up everything to not surrender her to Council "justice". He was ready to trade Billy to save Cordelia, even though he recognized that Bill could be apocalyptically dangerous. When Angelus escapes, it's Wesley that insists on capturing Angelus to re-soul him instead of staking Angelus. In the examples you named, I don't think kidnapping Connor aka signing up to raise someone else's child to protect that child from Angel is the cold-hearted choice by any means. Further, the Connor-kidnapping goes badly because Wesley dropped his guard to help a seemingly injured Justine. 

In some cases, the cold utilitarian choice *is* justified. With the Pylean rebels, the rebels were all set to battle frontally which would have resulted in more casualties and their priority wasn't rescuing Cordelia. As far as I see, Wesley merely provided them with a guerrilla plan that ended up *working* and put the AtS gang in the leadership role so the safe rescue of Cordelia was always a top consideration. Yes, Pylean rebels died but they would have died under their own plan to fight the priests directly. Every battle that ANY of these characters have in every episode of the series, they're all risking their lives. I don't think how that's so unreasonable for the Pyleans.

IMO, Wesley's real flaw isn't that he makes the cold-hearted choice. It's that he makes emotional choices, but he lies to himself that it's strategic or he lies to himself about the nature of his emotions. Choices is a good example. Like, I think Wesley genuinely believed his whole "I want to save Willow as much as you" but...it's still complete bullshit. Same when he lurches to kill his father for Fred under cover of "saving life" but it's clear in how he did it and his reaction afterward that he was driven by *rage* more than protectiveness. 

IMO, the Buffyverse writers were always very aware of this flaw of Wesley's and his story was consistently about how he fancied himself a Spock but he was actually driven by a tangle of emotions which he lacked the introspection to turn into "total assets." Maybe it's character bias, but I think S1-2 was about Wesley growing into being able to work on a team and finding self-confidence. S3 through mid-S4 was about how Wesley's fatal flaws were still lurking and could sink him and how they did sink him. Then in late S4, I argue that Wesley was actually grappling with his deeper flaws and trying to work through them. By trying to capture Angelus to re-soul him. In his conversation with Willow. By only taking the stupid W&H tour to rescue Lilah from an eternity of torture. However, all psychological growth was cut off and corrupted by Angel's mindwipe. 

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎24‎/‎09‎/‎2018 at 7:36 PM, Melancholy said:

I don't think the gang should have given up Willow for the Box. Because I agree that they don't know whether the Box is necessary, Willow is far more valuable than an unknown object, and the Scoobies still had time to foil the Ascension without sacrificing people. I also agree that it's horrible for morale and completely destructive to the power of the Scoobies, on both a moral and practical level. Heroes don't grow on trees. Child prodigy heroes with magic and tech/science skills don't grow on trees. Best friends don't grow on trees. 

However, I do think the gang should have brainstormed for two minutes on how to have their cake and eat it too. For starters, it's ridiculous that the gang didn't try to open or perform magical spells to determine the contents of the Box before trading. Even if they were going to trade for Willow (which I think they should have!), use this opportunity to gather intelligence on the Mayor. (LOL, like Willow did in captivity.) They should have also spent a little time trying to see if they could get Willow back without giving up the Box. Wesley took two positions in this debate. The position that they should destroy the Box (even if it means Willow dying) because it's a ticket to Buffy getting out is horrible. The position that he wants to help Willow too but they should find another way besides just automatically handing it back to the Mayor was reasonable. I appreciate that the gang was panicked about getting Willow back ASAP. However, Willow had the focus to turn her more dire captivity lemons into some information-gathering lemonade. The gang should have done the same.

Wesley's quite infuriating in all of this, though. When he got to Sunnydale, he was ready to sing like a canary to Balthezar to protect his kneecaps. However, he's already to sacrifice the actual life of Willow. And he argues that point in the grossest way possible- IMO dishonestly promising that Buffy can go away to school if Willow is sacrificed. And then, he basically pouts that Willow's pages better be important to pay the freight of her *life*. 

  Hide contents

On AtS, though, I think it's far more complex than Wesley always default to the "cold-hearted" choice. He, first, wanted to redeem Faith and then, he gave up everything to not surrender her to Council "justice". He was ready to trade Billy to save Cordelia, even though he recognized that Bill could be apocalyptically dangerous. When Angelus escapes, it's Wesley that insists on capturing Angelus to re-soul him instead of staking Angelus. In the examples you named, I don't think kidnapping Connor aka signing up to raise someone else's child to protect that child from Angel is the cold-hearted choice by any means. Further, the Connor-kidnapping goes badly because Wesley dropped his guard to help a seemingly injured Justine. 

In some cases, the cold utilitarian choice *is* justified. With the Pylean rebels, the rebels were all set to battle frontally which would have resulted in more casualties and their priority wasn't rescuing Cordelia. As far as I see, Wesley merely provided them with a guerrilla plan that ended up *working* and put the AtS gang in the leadership role so the safe rescue of Cordelia was always a top consideration. Yes, Pylean rebels died but they would have died under their own plan to fight the priests directly. Every battle that ANY of these characters have in every episode of the series, they're all risking their lives. I don't think how that's so unreasonable for the Pyleans.

IMO, Wesley's real flaw isn't that he makes the cold-hearted choice. It's that he makes emotional choices, but he lies to himself that it's strategic or he lies to himself about the nature of his emotions. Choices is a good example. Like, I think Wesley genuinely believed his whole "I want to save Willow as much as you" but...it's still complete bullshit. Same when he lurches to kill his father for Fred under cover of "saving life" but it's clear in how he did it and his reaction afterward that he was driven by *rage* more than protectiveness. 

IMO, the Buffyverse writers were always very aware of this flaw of Wesley's and his story was consistently about how he fancied himself a Spock but he was actually driven by a tangle of emotions which he lacked the introspection to turn into "total assets." Maybe it's character bias, but I think S1-2 was about Wesley growing into being able to work on a team and finding self-confidence. S3 through mid-S4 was about how Wesley's fatal flaws were still lurking and could sink him and how they did sink him. Then in late S4, I argue that Wesley was actually grappling with his deeper flaws and trying to work through them. By trying to capture Angelus to re-soul him. In his conversation with Willow. By only taking the stupid W&H tour to rescue Lilah from an eternity of torture. However, all psychological growth was cut off and corrupted by Angel's mindwipe. 

In cold hard logic giving up Willow is the right thing to do but we love her so damn much as does Oz, he just solves the argument. It's interesting when we compare it to

Spoiler

Giles arguing about sacrificing Dawn to save the world and killing Ben and Wes' argument with Gunn over the Pylean rebels. 

 The battle between logic and emotion, very Star Trek

On ‎06‎/‎09‎/‎2018 at 11:12 PM, lembergwatcher said:

That scene in the City Hall between Willow, Faith and the knife (or any other Willow scene involving suspence or confrontation)... Every time I watch it and hear Willow startin' to breathe heavily, it seems like Alyson Hannigan's sits beside me and breathes right into my ear... 

Lucky you!

On ‎24‎/‎09‎/‎2018 at 10:33 AM, Halting Hex said:

I've always been opposed to Wesley's "we have to destroy the Box, too bad for Willow" position, and not only because

  Hide contents

it's the first surfacing of Wesley's stupid Daddy Issues, which lead him to make dumb choice after dumb choice, always deciding that if something is cold-hearted, it must therefore be "right".  Whether it's sacrificing the troops in Pylea or kidnapping Connor or unleashing Angelus or "killing" his "father" (the root of all this shit to begin with), it's the firmest indication that Wes never shows any true character growth, stubble aside.

There's the more basic issue that they really don't know what the Box is or how valuable it is to the Mayor or any practical considerations; it's foolish to sacrifice an irreplaceable asset in Willow for uncertain benefit.  Plus I love Willow and I know Buffy loves Willow, so fuck Wesley.

But I was thinking even further on this, and even from the purely-utilitarian perspective that Wesley wants to impose on her, it makes no sense for Buffy to do this, because it would completely undercut morale amongst everyone else.  How could Xander or Cordelia or Oz or whomever be willing to assist Buffy in the future, if they knew that Buffy had been willing to let Willow die for  "the cause"? The "soldiers down" model just doesn't work

  Reveal hidden contents

, as Angel will soon find out.

Buffy needs her Willow…and the rest of the gang needs that kind of Buffy.  JMO.

It made perfect sense, Wes hadn't got to know the Scoobs at this point, perhaps that Giles wasn't prepared to do it is why the council replaced him, he had a father's love for more than just Buffy. 

[Melancholy]

Giving up the Box wasn't even the right thing to do in terms of "cold, hard logic." Even putting aside Willow's enormous importance to morale and the importance of the Scoobies needing to remain a close knit, moral friends group that inspires loyalty and camaraderie, Willow also has irreplaceable value-add to the group with her technological know-how and magic skills. Willow is a proven tremendous asset in terms of her hard skills. Heck, I don't consider S3 Willow any great strokes when it comes to physical strength on a battle field. But given how small the Scoobies are and how difficult it is to recruit people to do such a thankless job, Willow carries tremendous strategic importance just in her number.

To the point, Willow is so strategically important, beyond her sentimental importance, that a few eps ago, the Mayor was trying to have Willow *killed*.   

Meanwhile as @Halting Hex said, no one ever proved that the Box was important and irreplaceable while Willow has proven time and time again that she's important and irreplaceable. All Buffy had was some vampire flunkie saying that the Mayor needed to chow on the contents of the Box "come May Day." The Scoobies had no idea whether:

1) The flunkie was telling the truth or knew what he was talking about when he said the Mayor "needed" to chow on the contents. His credibility is unsure. In fact, I would almost guess that stupid delivery-boy flunkie cannot say for certain what parts of an Ascension spell are necessary. 

2) Whether the Mayor can get another Box or has another Box as back-up. There was still two weeks till graduation. That's plenty of time to order stuff- unless that stuff was irreplaceable or incredibly rare. The Scoobies had no information to suggest the contents of the Box couldn't be replaced. 

3) They could find another way to stop the Ascension. Two weeks is some time. It would be a disaster if they could find another way to stop it but they sacrificed Willow anyway. 

4) The Scoobies don't know this- and neither do we. The Mayor loses his invincibility come Ascension. I don't know if the Mayor could hold onto his invincible status if he wasn't Ascending. Either way, even if the Mayor was invincible-but-foiled-from-his-end-goal for two weeks or forever invincible but foiled, he's a nightmare villain for the Scoobies. Stopping the Mayor from Ascending doesn't resolve him as a problem. 

I actually do think there's some times when the cold, sacrificial choice is the appropriate one. Angel in Becoming is a classic example. The apocalypse was already occurring by the time Acathala was opening the mouth and Buffy had no other solutions.  

Spoiler

With Dawn, The Gift was another example when the apocalypse was so imminent that it justified the sacrifice of one person to avoid the death of billions of people. I agreed with the Scoobies making every effort to save Dawn up till The Gift. However, unlike Choices:

1) Multiple facts and sources supported the theory was Dawn was critical to starting the apocalypse. This was far more proven than only the vampire flunkie saying the Mayor needed to chow down the Box's contents. Moreover, Dawn was the only Key- based on the information before Buffy's convenience epiphany at the end of the ep. 

 2) The apocalypse was imminent once Glory had Dawn because Glory would try to get home immediately. (Glory does embark on her mission home once she has Dawn. She's conveniently slowed down with bullshit ritual.) Unlike Choices, their information suggested the Mayor wasn't going to start the Ascension for another two weeks. In S3, the Scoobies had time. By The Gift, they did not have time.

3) Ultimately in The Gift, a person DID have to be sacrificed to save the world. Buffy was just able to sacrifice herself. However based on humanistic terms, Buffy's life as the same value as Dawn's life. In practical terms, Buffy's life is FAR more important than Dawn's. 

4) By the end of The Gift, Dawn consented to sacrifice herself. That makes the gang's sacrifice of Dawn more moral than the sacrifice of Willow,. who never had a chance to consent to her sacrifice and we don't know that Willow would have consented.

With regard to Wesley and Pylea, I don't consider that a sacrifice like Choices or The Gift. Wesley and Pylea is like the Scoobies and the Sunndyale Class of 1998 in Graduation Day. These are armies fighting for a cause- where every soldier takes the risk that they may not survive battle. Every solider has the agency in battle to try to protect themselves and come out alive. The Scoobies and the Fang Gang take such a risk in every single episode. That's not the same as handing a person over to be definitely slaughtered so that the rest of the gang can avoid some fate. 

Wesley doesn't "sacrifice" anyone because he's the only person who isn't so naive and stupid that he can't understand that when Pylean rebels try to mount a coup against the palace priests and their armies, the priests and their armies will fight back against the rebels and some rebels may die. In other words, every violent political rebellion ever. In fact, I'm not so sure that the Pylean rebels were that naive and stupid. Gunn and Angel aren't naive or stupid but they constantly are so high on their own bullshit that they refuse to see the obvious darkness and/or danger in what they do. I've written above that Wesley's problem is that he's not in touch with how his emotions cloud his actions but he calls stuff a lot more honestly and with a lot more humility than his compatriots in the Fang Gang. So, Wesley could state the obvious that people die in war and get tagged with the responsibility of “sacrifice” in AtS’s troll logic 

Edited September 26, 2018 by Melancholy

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎26‎/‎09‎/‎2018 at 6:21 PM, Melancholy said:

Giving up the Box wasn't even the right thing to do in terms of "cold, hard logic." Even putting aside Willow's enormous importance to morale and the importance of the Scoobies needing to remain a close knit, moral friends group that inspires loyalty and camaraderie, Willow also has irreplaceable value-add to the group with her technological know-how and magic skills. Willow is a proven tremendous asset in terms of her hard skills. Heck, I don't consider S3 Willow any great strokes when it comes to physical strength on a battle field. But given how small the Scoobies are and how difficult it is to recruit people to do such a thankless job, Willow carries tremendous strategic importance just in her number.

To the point, Willow is so strategically important, beyond her sentimental importance, that a few eps ago, the Mayor was trying to have Willow *killed*.   

Meanwhile as @Halting Hex said, no one ever proved that the Box was important and irreplaceable while Willow has proven time and time again that she's important and irreplaceable. All Buffy had was some vampire flunkie saying that the Mayor needed to chow on the contents of the Box "come May Day." The Scoobies had no idea whether:

1) The flunkie was telling the truth or knew what he was talking about when he said the Mayor "needed" to chow on the contents. His credibility is unsure. In fact, I would almost guess that stupid delivery-boy flunkie cannot say for certain what parts of an Ascension spell are necessary. 

2) Whether the Mayor can get another Box or has another Box as back-up. There was still two weeks till graduation. That's plenty of time to order stuff- unless that stuff was irreplaceable or incredibly rare. The Scoobies had no information to suggest the contents of the Box couldn't be replaced. 

3) They could find another way to stop the Ascension. Two weeks is some time. It would be a disaster if they could find another way to stop it but they sacrificed Willow anyway. 

4) The Scoobies don't know this- and neither do we. The Mayor loses his invincibility come Ascension. I don't know if the Mayor could hold onto his invincible status if he wasn't Ascending. Either way, even if the Mayor was invincible-but-foiled-from-his-end-goal for two weeks or forever invincible but foiled, he's a nightmare villain for the Scoobies. Stopping the Mayor from Ascending doesn't resolve him as a problem. 

I actually do think there's some times when the cold, sacrificial choice is the appropriate one. Angel in Becoming is a classic example. The apocalypse was already occurring by the time Acathala was opening the mouth and Buffy had no other solutions.  

  Reveal hidden contents

With Dawn, The Gift was another example when the apocalypse was so imminent that it justified the sacrifice of one person to avoid the death of billions of people. I agreed with the Scoobies making every effort to save Dawn up till The Gift. However, unlike Choices:

1) Multiple facts and sources supported the theory was Dawn was critical to starting the apocalypse. This was far more proven than only the vampire flunkie saying the Mayor needed to chow down the Box's contents. Moreover, Dawn was the only Key- based on the information before Buffy's convenience epiphany at the end of the ep. 

 2) The apocalypse was imminent once Glory had Dawn because Glory would try to get home immediately. (Glory does embark on her mission home once she has Dawn. She's conveniently slowed down with bullshit ritual.) Unlike Choices, their information suggested the Mayor wasn't going to start the Ascension for another two weeks. In S3, the Scoobies had time. By The Gift, they did not have time.

3) Ultimately in The Gift, a person DID have to be sacrificed to save the world. Buffy was just able to sacrifice herself. However based on humanistic terms, Buffy's life as the same value as Dawn's life. In practical terms, Buffy's life is FAR more important than Dawn's. 

4) By the end of The Gift, Dawn consented to sacrifice herself. That makes the gang's sacrifice of Dawn more moral than the sacrifice of Willow,. who never had a chance to consent to her sacrifice and we don't know that Willow would have consented.

With regard to Wesley and Pylea, I don't consider that a sacrifice like Choices or The Gift. Wesley and Pylea is like the Scoobies and the Sunndyale Class of 1998 in Graduation Day. These are armies fighting for a cause- where every soldier takes the risk that they may not survive battle. Every solider has the agency in battle to try to protect themselves and come out alive. The Scoobies and the Fang Gang take such a risk in every single episode. That's not the same as handing a person over to be definitely slaughtered so that the rest of the gang can avoid some fate. 

Wesley doesn't "sacrifice" anyone because he's the only person who isn't so naive and stupid that he can't understand that when Pylean rebels try to mount a coup against the palace priests and their armies, the priests and their armies will fight back against the rebels and some rebels may die. In other words, every violent political rebellion ever. In fact, I'm not so sure that the Pylean rebels were that naive and stupid. Gunn and Angel aren't naive or stupid but they constantly are so high on their own bullshit that they refuse to see the obvious darkness and/or danger in what they do. I've written above that Wesley's problem is that he's not in touch with how his emotions cloud his actions but he calls stuff a lot more honestly and with a lot more humility than his compatriots in the Fang Gang. So, Wesley could state the obvious that people die in war and get tagged with the responsibility of “sacrifice” in AtS’s troll logic 

Judgement call, you could see it either way. 

[Halting Hex]

On another subject, as much as I love Northwestern* (go, Wildcats!) and as cool as it is to think of Buffy getting accepted there, how realistic is it, really?  I mean, the girl has been expelled from two separate high schools, not to mention that pesky "fled town when wanted for questioning in a murder" incident.  (And the other two times she was questioned in homicide investigations…)  Honestly, even UC-Hellmouth seems a bit of a stretch. Did Snyder somehow sanitize her transcript, and if so, why?

*—Despite their high academic standards (no athletic scholarships), Northwestern has been competitive in football since the mid-1990s.  However, before that, when they were getting regularly beat up by their jock rivals, the students used to console themselves by serenading the opposition with this cheer:

That's all right!

That's okay!

You will work for us someday!

Heh.

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎23‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 3:58 AM, Halting Hex said:

On another subject, as much as I love Northwestern* (go, Wildcats!) and as cool as it is to think of Buffy getting accepted there, how realistic is it, really?  I mean, the girl has been expelled from two separate high schools, not to mention that pesky "fled town when wanted for questioning in a murder" incident.  (And the other two times she was questioned in homicide investigations…)  Honestly, even UC-Hellmouth seems a bit of a stretch. Did Snyder somehow sanitize her transcript, and if so, why?

*—Despite their high academic standards (no athletic scholarships), Northwestern has been competitive in football since the mid-1990s.  However, before that, when they were getting regularly beat up by their jock rivals, the students used to console themselves by serenading the opposition with this cheer:

That's all right!

That's okay!

You will work for us someday!

Heh.

Did you forget how pretty Buffy is?

[Halting Hex]

I don't know, Buffy doesn't seem to do so well in interview settings. And we know she hasn't actually been to Evanston IL (the Chicago suburb where Northwestern is located), so they're relying simply on the transcript and the admittedly-surprising-impressive SAT scores.  And they're not supposed to be looking for "hotties", although I suppose one never knows.

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎24‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 4:38 PM, Halting Hex said:

I don't know, Buffy doesn't seem to do so well in interview settings. And we know she hasn't actually been to Evanston IL (the Chicago suburb where Northwestern is located), so they're relying simply on the transcript and the admittedly-surprising-impressive SAT scores.  And they're not supposed to be looking for "hotties", although I suppose one never knows.

EVERYONE is always looking for Hotties!

[lembergwatcher]

Considering Buffy's not so impressive academic performance ("I bet that means your grades will be picking up soon"), somewhat reckless attitude (she skipped chem test after Faith drew a heart on the window pane six eps earlier) and overall reputation (her favorite teacher didn't seem to remember her at her classes), it has always seemed a little strange to me that Buffy was suddenly accepted to Northwestern University or whatever.  Being given an opportunity out of the blue 

Spoiler

(just like Xander got his job in season 5)

- I guess I'll never get used to it.

[lembergwatcher]

Watching Choices for the first time back in the day I expected Faith to have some twisted fantasy. I thought she would've asked Daddy Wilkins to let her play with her new "girltoy" for a while before the exchange. The way Dru played with Angel in What's My Line, Part 2 or Vamp!Willow had fun with the same guy in The Wish. For some reason Faithie restricted herself with a knife to Willow's throat and just one punch in the face.

Speaking of punches. Isn't a person punched in the face so hard she's knocked off her feet supposed to have some blood and bruises on her face? Or a dislocated jaw? We see neither of these here.

Xander had a "good bruise" on his face after encountering Angel in Enemies (even Willow noticed, after all), but with Willow everything seems to be completely different. I begin to suspected Buffy had shared some of her slayer healing mojo in a ways B/W 'shippers would defenitely like during those endless bondage  bonding sessions with the redhead throughout seasons 2 & 3.

[Halting Hex]

On 3/16/2019 at 3:04 PM, lembergwatcher said:

Isn't a person punched in the face so hard she's knocked off her feet supposed to have some blood and bruises on her face? Or a dislocated jaw? We see neither of these here.

The only fanwank I've been able to come up with is that Slayers subconsciously pull their punches against humans, even if their emotions are running hot and/or they're not in their right minds.  See Buffy not even knocking Enspelled!Amy out in BB&B, which is why the blonde witch is able to give Buffy that "sudden need for cheese" right after that.  

Spoiler

Or Buffy barely bruising the "demon" in the teaser to Fear, Itself, even though that turns out to be just a kid in a mask.

That's not to say that Faith can't be so out of control as to be fatal to Finch, but that the reflex that holds her and Buffy back to "love-tap" strength in most situations is still in evidence here.

Or it could just be bad writing, I suppose.  But as this is Choices, I refuse to consider that. 🤫

Besides, how is Willow supposed to say "And here I thought you just didn't have a comeback" with a broken jaw?  I mean, honestly!

[lembergwatcher]

Here we go again! Xander cynically violates "no touching" rule right in front of Willow's wereboyfriend! 😱That's so despicable, I can't even find a proper mean word to describe Xander's actions!

OTOH that probably was among the things that gave Oz much needed anger to show his backbone in Act Three... So in the end Xander did some good job, I guess. 😎

Edited February 2, 2021 by lembergwatcher

[Halting Hex]

Look, I love this episode like Buffy loves Willow ("stronger than reason", to quote the Mayor), but…

Quote

MAYOR (about to discuss Buffy and Angel's relationship):  …and not just because I plan to kill the both of you.

Errr…yeah, Dick.  If you're going to kill them, then relationship advice doesn't make much sense, I'm thinking.

And again, what are BAngel doing taking advice from this guy, exactly?  I mean, taking advice from Spike was bad enough, but at least he'd been in a relationship recently.  If Dick married Edna Mae in 1903, how long could she have lived? 1960 maybe?  A lot has happened since the Kennedy/Nixon debate, honestly.

Seriously, first Spike and now the Mayor.  Who's next, Snyder?
 

Spoiler

Okay, Joyce.  But "Be careful about my daughter" is hardly groundbreaking.  Nor should it have taken Angel by surprise.

I guess what's really going on is they don't want to "damage" key characters by having them oppose The Twu Wuv of the Ages, but come on, already.  Let Buffy at least listen to someone she respects, for a change.

Not to mention that everyone else in the room must have been just thrilled to have to stand around listening to this…
 

Quote

Faith draws her hand back across Willow's neck, slitting her throat with the knife.
Willow gurgles and falls to the ground, very much dead.

XANDER/OZ:  Noooo!!!

They leap at Faith.  Faith knocks them back.
Buffy rushes over.  She and Faith square off.

MAYOR (disapproving):  Faith, that was very rash.  I told you to wait for my signal, didn't I?

FAITH:  Sorry, Boss.   My hand was cramping.

 

Edited September 2, 2021 by Halting Hex

[lembergwatcher]

On 9/3/2021 at 1:05 AM, Halting Hex said:

And again, what are BAngel doing taking advice from this guy, exactly?  I mean, taking advice from Spike was bad enough, but at least he'd been in a relationship recently.  If Dick married Edna Mae in 1903, how long could she have lived? 1960 maybe?

Two things.

1. How do we know Edna Mae was his one and only? What if Dick was seeing someone prior to all Ascension-related events? Private life, you know. Not just job and evil.

2. Judging from Angel's facial expression at the very end of that episode, Mayor's speech had hit some nerve, so...

On 9/3/2021 at 1:05 AM, Halting Hex said:

Willow gurgles and falls to the ground, very much dead.

Please, don't joke like this ever again... 

Besides, Faith could've beaten Willow to death before Dick intervened a few hours ago. Which means our girl can show some restraint sometimes.

Edited September 5, 2021 by lembergwatcher

[Halting Hex]

Lol, how little you know me.  I'll kill anyone for a joke.
 

Spoiler

(I did one where the S3 Scoobs meet the S7 Scoobs, and finding out Willow likes girls makes S3 Buffy so happy and they look at each other with love…but S7 Buffy is infuriated to learn Willow had feelings for her and starts screaming "what, were you perving on me when we were roommates?" and such, freaking out S7 Willow so much she accidentally lets loose a fireball, flash-frying everyone there, both sets, and everyone in the house except for Unnamed Potential #32, who had FINALLY gotten her turn to use the bathroom.  Surprised to find she's now the Slayer, Unnamed #32 grabs several stylish-but-affordable leather coats that Buffy will never need, and wisely skips town.  The End.)

 

Edited September 5, 2021 by Halting Hex

[Halting Hex]

On 9/2/2021 at 6:05 PM, Halting Hex said:

Dick.  If you're going to kill them, then relationship advice doesn't make much sense, I'm thinking.

And again, what are BAngel doing taking advice from this guy, exactly?

Well, to argue the other side of it, perhaps Wilkins (unlike Love Guru Spike in 3.08, for example) isn't giving the "happy" couple the benefit of his experience because he wants what's best for them or because he wants to impress them with his "wisdom"?  Maybe he's just taunting them, like almost every evil person does?

I mean, I've excused the Master for not draining every last drop of Buffy's blood by pointing out that he's been stuck in that cave for sixty years, and he's got places to go, demons to summon, a world to conquer, yada-yada-yada.  Which makes sense, IMO.

But for somebody in a hurry, ol' Fruit-Punch Mouth sure doesn't mind taking the time to bring Buffy up to date:

Quote

THE MASTER:  You came.  It was noble of you.  You heard the prophecy that I was about to break free, and you came to stop it.  But prophecies are tricky things;   they don't tell you everything.

He leans closer, whispering 

MASTER:  You're the one who sets me free!

A single tear rolls down Buffy's cheek

MASTER:  If you hadn't come, I couldn't go.  Think about that!  

And he bites her

From memory, of course.  (I do love showing off.)

But still, if I was about to get out of a very crappy prison cell after sixty years underground, I might find better things to do than yapping at a girl who's going to be dead less that a minute from now.  But H.J. Nest just can't resist adding on to Buffy's torment.

And Season 2 is nothing more than an extended taunt-fest, with Spike talking about how much he loves Buffy being scared and helpless to Angel saying that Willow being "cute and helpless" is a turn-on, to the final "take all that away and what's left?" (Where again, Angel wasn't really waiting for Buffy to answer;  he thrusts the sword almost immediately after asking the question.)

So perhaps this is only an exercise in sadism on the Mayor's part.  Which means that Buffy and Angel have even less reason to take his "insight" with anything short of a nuclear missile's full of S.A.L.T.

Not that you can tell it by that broody final scene, though.  I realize that neither of them are exactly geniuses (Buffy's "I guessed the correct bubble a heck of a lot of times" surprisingly-high SAT scores aside), but…c'mon, you two.

Edited April 5, 2022 by Halting Hex

[lembergwatcher]

On 4/6/2022 at 2:26 AM, Halting Hex said:

Not that you can tell it by that broody final scene, though.  I realize that neither of them are exactly geniuses (Buffy's "I guessed the correct bubble a heck of a lot of times" surprisingly-high SAT scores aside), but…c'mon, you two.

Seems like both Buffy and Angel have a thing for taking relationship advices from all the wrong "people". Or maybe Angel grew sick and tired of their "romance" (seeing how annoying Buffy started to become after coming back home from LA) and just needed an excuse to say "I'm leaving"?

Besides, as absurd as it may sound, Dick Wilkins turned out to be right about Bangel's possible future together (or the lack of one for that matter) and just pointed out the things that were obvious for everyone except Buffy, Angel and Willow. 

[Halting Hex]

On 9/2/2021 at 6:05 PM, Halting Hex said:

Faith draws her hand back across Willow's neck, slitting her throat with the knife.
Willow gurgles and falls to the ground, very much dead.

As much as Faith might fantasize about doing this, and as much as Faith might not be capable of thinking through the possible consequences, if she did consider what might happen, she might want to be sure Willow makes it out alive.

• Faith might think she can out-tough Buffy, but Buffy is older and more experienced and apparently a better fighter.  (She stays focused while Faith is "sloppy".)  And it's not as if Buffy doesn't know how to hurt a foe, as seen with her torturing Tara.  (The vampire who impersonated Cordelia in When She Was Bad. )

• Speaking of torture, Angel probably wrote the book on it.  He might be trying to restrain himself (and he might not care quite enough to go into full vengeance mode), but Buffy does have a lot of influence with him…

• And if Angel did write a book on torture, Giles has probably read it.  He might not be as strong as Fang, but he could certainly get creative, once Buffy or Angel has subdued Faith for him.

• All Xander knows is brute force, but he does know how to get his hands on some very useful weapons.  How would you like a rocket launcher down your throat, Ms. Tough Chick?

• Oz might not be able to do much right now, but come the full moon…. (Yes, Faith took him down in BatB, but I don't see her carrying around a tranq-gun these days.)

So, not that Faith is capable of this sort of analysis, but she is facing a bunch of people who would make her pay for anything she did to Willow.  Good thing Wilkins is there to restrain her, I guess.

Really, the only one here that Faith has no reason to fear is Wesley. 

Spoiler

And that won't last for long, as Justine would be able to tell her, four seasons (and one bucket) later on.

 

[lembergwatcher]

What if having Daddy Wilkins by her side might make Faith even more reckless? I know nothing can beat the recklessness of sleeping with a 200+ y. o. vamp but still...

18 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

And if Angel did write a book on torture, Giles has probably read it.  He might not be as strong as Fang, but he could certainly get creative

As much as I respect your opinion... Giles?? Are we talking about the same Giles who swallowed his pride and let his lover's killer and his own tormentor continue walking the earth? The same Giles who didn't even try to avenge Jenny's death after learning Fang was back in town? The same Giles who did absolutely nothing after Buffy spat on Jenny's grave and continued dating Angel like nothing's happened, putting everyone around in danger since it was only a matter of time until Buffy's hormones got the best of her and she gave Forehead another moment of perfect happiness? I don't see why should Faith take Tweed Boy seriously?

18 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

And it's not as if Buffy doesn't know how to hurt a foe

You certainly have a point here. Buffy values Willow's life more than she values Xander's so Faith is really skating on thin ice here. But that's what we know. From Faith's point of view? She knows she got away with nearly killing Xander. Faith almost took the life of one of Buffy's (supposedly) best buds and Miss Summers didn't even chastice her. I don't remember Buffy telling Faith: "If you lay a finger on my friend Xander ever again I will fucking end you, you fucking slut!" But no, Buffy was in "we must save Faith" mood. Faith wasn't told to apologize to Xander, she was welcomed back into the gang and allowed to continue patrolling so... 

[Halting Hex]

On 5/5/2022 at 5:34 PM, lembergwatcher said:

As much as I respect your opinion... Giles?? Are we talking about the same Giles who [hasn't harmed a gelled hair on Forehead's head to date]?

It's true, Giles has let Jenny go notably unavenged and has even (IMO sadly) accepted Fang back into the group. 

But presumably, a lot of that is less due to Giles feeling for Angel's suffering and more about his wish to keep Buffy happy, both because of his personal affection for her and because he needs an effective Slayer to do his, er, Wesley's job.  This decision may suck on a number of levels (IMO) but I can understand it.

Whereas that same Buffy Summers has spent most of this episode very determined to save Her Willow and would presumably not let Willow's death go unavenged.  So Faith shouldn't expect the same sort of free pass that Angel has received…the hopes of Fuffy 'shippers aside.

(To put it in dramatic terms, Jenny, much though we loved her, might be classed as a tertiary character…she was Giles's love interest.  Buffy is the primary, Giles [her Watcher] is a secondary, his girlfriend is tertiary.  Whereas Willow, as one of Buffy's best friends, is a secondary.  Perhaps that one fewer degree of separation makes a difference?)

[lembergwatcher]

18 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

But presumably, a lot of that is less due to Giles feeling for Angel's suffering and more about his wish to keep Buffy happy, both because of his personal affection for her and because he needs an effective Slayer to do his, er, Wesley's job.

If the only way to keep Buffy in "an effective Slayer" mode is to tolerate her "sucking face with her demon lover" (as Cordelia put it), a lover who is not only a walking corpse, but a sadistic mass murderer who nearly ended the world (twice!), than... we're in a really big trouble... That speaks volumes about Buffy, yes, but it also tells a lot about Giles and his competence as a Watcher (the total lack of one, I'd say).

There are more important things than Buffy's happiness, after all. There are some things that can keep me happy, but it doesn't mean they're good things. Jenny is a tertiary character but she doesn't deserve to be completely forgotten and her tragic demise to be swept under the rug so Miss Buffy can feel good about her "relationship" with Forehead.

Giles goes a little bit too far in his desire to keep his favorite Slayer happy. He reminds me of some ultraliberal dad who spoils his kid rotten which doesn't do the said kid any good at the end of the day. Not to mention that not being able to suck face with Angel may become Buffy's lesser problem in case the Council decides they've had enough and they need a new Slayer who slays vampires, not cuddles them... 

[Halting Hex]

55 minutes ago, lembergwatcher said:

f the only way to keep Buffy in "an effective Slayer" mode is to tolerate her "sucking face with her demon lover" (as Cordelia put it), a lover who is not only a walking corpse, but a sadistic mass murderer who nearly ended the world (twice!), than... we're in a really big trouble... That speaks volumes about Buffy, yes, but it also tells a lot about Giles and his competence as a Watcher (the total lack of one, I'd say).

Yes, but…

Spoiler

as it turns out, Giles doesn't need to "tolerate" Buffy's Angel-fixation for much longer; the relationship fractures and Fang skedaddles, leaving Buffy able to perform other acts of heroism, including world-saveage.  (And, eventually, fuck Spike, but that's a different issue.)

So, it's less of a complete free pass and more letting her wean herself from the addiction at her own pace.  Annoying?  Yes.  But eventually, to quote Mr. Springsteen, we "get to that place where we really want to, and we'll walk in the sun…", so it "all worked out okay", to cite Willow's exceedingly-cheerful assessment from Selfless.

Quote

There are more important things than Buffy's happiness, after all. There are some things that can keep me happy, but it doesn't mean they're good things. Jenny is a tertiary character but she doesn't deserve to be completely forgotten and her tragic demise to be swept under the rug so Miss Buffy can feel good about her "relationship" with Forehead.

Absolutely, Jenny shouldn't be forgotten.  Hell, Uncle Enyos shouldn't be forgotten and he's only a…what comes after tertiary? Quadranary?  (That's probably not a word)…character.  

(He's Buffy's [1] Watcher's [2] girlfriend's [3] uncle [4].  Nobody in the Scoobs even ever actually saw him, barring Buffy and Giles discovering his corpse.)

None of Angel's victims should be forgotten, from the woman in the alley to the Xander-shaped sacrifice, 20 or so weeks later.  It's not a question of "forgetting", though.

To quote "Angelus" himself from just two episodes ago, "But then again, we have reality."  There's how we would like things to be, and there's what's both tolerable and feasible.  Giles allows Angel to endure out of nothing but practical politics.  That's…logical.

Even if I personally might have risked dusting the prick and then "consoling" Buffy when she finds out Angel's "left town".  But that's second-guessing, I'll admit.

[Halting Hex]

So I've just discovered that Yarn (getyarn[dot]io) not only has the entire series reduced to one-phrase at a time video clips, but that said clips are also .gif-able.  Which means I'm probably about to become obnoxious posting things such as this:

Apologies if you can't stand it.  But if you're cool with it, well, then…

Don't say I didn't warn you…

[lembergwatcher]

"I kind of love you"? Good thing Angel isn't around. Foreheads can be jealous. It won't be nice if he tries to feed Willow to some old acquaintance of his... 

[Halting Hex]

Nah, don't worry.  Buffy knows to keep an eye out for Fang:  

Sure, she's cut him some slack in the past…but there are limits.  After all…

In the words of Xander (in Bad Eggs), "Nuff said!"