S03.E15: Consequences

[Joe Hellandback]

Consequences

The Good; Hugely powerful ep, the dream sequence, Angel reaching out to Faith, the fight at the docks, the shock ending, as powerful as Buffy has ever been.

The Bad; It's truly heartrending to watch Faith's fall from grace. One question though, where does Wes get his thugs from? They'd have been rather useful in the past.

Best line; Buffy; "Cordelia is a friend" Cordy; "Let's not exaggerate"

Character death; Bye-bye Mr Trick, who didn't follow his own advice about getting an Uzi.

Tied up; Angel in chains and Faith chained up twice. Buffy entangled at the dockside

Knocked out; Faith, Angel, Wes and possibly Xander

Women good/men bad; Not this time

Jeez!; Horrible to watch both Buffy and Xander almost strangled

Kinky dinky; Faith and Xander forget the safety word (a BDSM term). Faith tries eroto-asphyxia and refers to Xander as her boy toy (just a minor point but how gorgeous does she look at this point, like she's off to the ball or something?). Buffy in her dream sequence indulges in some wet T-shirt action. First meeting of Wes and Cordy

Spoiler

(historic although neither realise it).

Faith refers to Cordy as jail-bait suggesting she is under 18.

Calling Captain Subtext; Willow sobbing in the toilets (how many of us did that in high school?) that Xander has lost his virginity to Faith rather than her. A scene that will also recur in the Firefly ep 'Heart of Gold'. Buffy states that the guys Faith sleeps with are a 'big joke to her', implying that she's not that into guys? Buffy starts to make the effort to be more friendly to Will, you could say she's choosing her femme girlfriend over her butch?

Guantanamo Bay; The Watcher's council once again show their ruthless side. Although the Mayor controls the police his influence seems to be not total.

Scoobies to the ER; Xander must have some fingermarks on his neck with Buffy and Angel also bearing some bumps as does Wes.

Spoiler

Where's Dawn? Must be used to cops at the Summer's house by now? Joyce seems to wait up for Buffy to come home

Questions and observations; Good ep but hard to watch, it's all so sad. We do however now start the run of the final eps of season 3 which set the standard for TV generally. Faith seems to feel genuine regret for what she's done but can't come to terms with it. She doesn't go evil right away, she saves Buffy, she could have just snapped Xander's neck but she doesn't. She's happy that the Mayor and deputy Mayor were dirty, alleviates her guilt. Apparently Slayers have killed before and the council takes them back for rehabilitation. But really they don't have much alternative, up until now there's only one Slayer. Does the Mayor want rid of the Slayers or not? Who's going to control the supernatural threat for him otherwise? To judge by the way the SDPD go straight to the Slayers and talk about wooden weapons the Slayers are an open secret in SD.

Terrible commentary, directors commentaries always seem to want to talk about camera speeds and lenses. More writers and actors please!

Marks out of 10, 6/10 powerful but not that much fun to watch

[Halting Hex]

42 minutes ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Calling Captain Subtext; Willow sobbing in the toilets (how many of us did that in high school?) that Xander has lost his virginity to Faith rather than her.

Is this actually "subtext"?  Seems pretty main text to me.

43 minutes ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Buffy states that the guys Faith sleeps with are a 'big joke to her'

Gee, I'm glad that made Xander feel a whole lot better.  And after all the love and support he gave her when the person she lost her virginity to made her feel like shit.  (And later, she's all "we have to help Faith!" when Xander literally can't even speak because of the bruises Faith left on his throat.  Jesus, shit, Slayer…)

46 minutes ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Buffy starts to make the effort to be more friendly to Will, you could say she's choosing her femme girlfriend over her butch?

Now this would be "subtext".  A pity that Buffy only wants to "get back with" Willow once she and Faith fall out; it must suck to be the second choice like that.

50 minutes ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Apparently Slayers have killed before and the council takes them back for rehabilitation. But really they don't have much alternative, up until now there's only one Slayer.

Well, there's always that handy "one slayer dies, the next one's called" clause.  Perhaps "rehabilitation" consists of a bullet in the neck.  I grant you, Giles seems to think it's actually no big deal, but perhaps he's naive/thick.  (OTOH, if it was time to purge and move on, why do the Watchers try to take Faith back to Britain rather than simply finish her off here and now?)

Spoiler

Not to mention their letting her live while she was in a coma/in prison and a fresh Slayer would be more of use than Faith was.  But they erred on the caution then, so I suppose they do so here, as well.

 

57 minutes ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Does the Mayor want rid of the Slayers or not? Who's going to control the supernatural threat for him otherwise?

He seems to be doing a pretty good job of getting the vampires to work for him, as it is.  Plus he's invincible now, so what does he care?

1 hour ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Terrible commentary, directors commentaries always seem to want to talk about camera speeds and lenses.

Technical details are part of what makes the magic.  Better this than Marti fanning herself about how "hot" JM is.  And RIP Michael Gershman.

1 hour ago, Joe Hellandback said:

6/10 powerful but not that much fun to watch

I like a nice MotW ep as much as the next fan, but sometimes you need an intense, darker ep.  This is probably the worst episode rating you've given all season, which feels silly to me, as I'd argue that it's easily one of the best eps of the season, along with 3.03, 3.05, 3.07, and 3.09  (Boy, talk about inconsistent!  Only top-quality every other ep, at best.)

Don't know if I could manage a 9 (I'm much more stingy with the 10s than you are) but an easy 8, at least.

[Joe Hellandback]

12 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Is this actually "subtext"?  Seems pretty main text to me.

Gee, I'm glad that made Xander feel a whole lot better.  And after all the love and support he gave her when the person she lost her virginity to made her feel like shit.  (And later, she's all "we have to help Faith!" when Xander literally can't even speak because of the bruises Faith left on his throat.  Jesus, shit, Slayer…)

Now this would be "subtext".  A pity that Buffy only wants to "get back with" Willow once she and Faith fall out; it must suck to be the second choice like that.

Well, there's always that handy "one slayer dies, the next one's called" clause.  Perhaps "rehabilitation" consists of a bullet in the neck.  I grant you, Giles seems to think it's actually no big deal, but perhaps he's naive/thick.  (OTOH, if it was time to purge and move on, why do the Watchers try to take Faith back to Britain rather than simply finish her off here and now?)

  Hide contents

Not to mention their letting her live while she was in a coma/in prison and a fresh Slayer would be more of use than Faith was.  But they erred on the caution then, so I suppose they do so here, as well.

 

He seems to be doing a pretty good job of getting the vampires to work for him, as it is.  Plus he's invincible now, so what does he care?

Technical details are part of what makes the magic.  Better this than Marti fanning herself about how "hot" JM is.  And RIP Michael Gershman.

I like a nice MotW ep as much as the next fan, but sometimes you need an intense, darker ep.  This is probably the worst episode rating you've given all season, which feels silly to me, as I'd argue that it's easily one of the best eps of the season, along with 3.03, 3.05, 3.07, and 3.09  (Boy, talk about inconsistent!  Only top-quality every other ep, at best.)

Don't know if I could manage a 9 (I'm much more stingy with the 10s than you are) but an easy 8, at least.

I think most people would give their right arm to be Buffy's second choice! To be fair Buffy warned him and he went ahead anyway so he only has himself to blame? I figure the council want to keep the Slayer alive not just from morality but from experience, the longer they live the more powerful and useful they become. Personally I always think Magic Jane gives the best commentaries. 

11 hours ago, nosleepforme said:

Reading too much into it. Buffy and Faith have talked about sex on their patrols several times, she is merely stating that Faith is a very sexual person and doesn't really do emotional connections when it comes to the guys she has sex with. I don't see how she implies that Faith is not that into guys. Also, it's easy to be hard on Xander, because from time to time he really acts like a dick, but talk about how insensitive Buffy is towards him, she REALLY could have phrased that differently.

 

Sidenote: I wonder how sex would be treated on the show if it were shot today, as I think that now the society is a little bit more open about casual sex than it was back in the day when TheWb was still a thing and really pushing the tender "sex & love" message in all of its shows.

 

I guess it also depends on the attitude of the slayer. Giles said they have a "rehabilitation" for these kind of situations, referring to situations in which civilians are killed by the slayer in the crossfire. When it's an accident as with Faith at this point, there might really be a rehabilitation program, however if a slayer truly turns evil, they do probably just kill her. But then again, they could have just killed her when she was you know what.

 

I really liked this episode, it gets really dark, but I do like the exploration of Faith's trauma and her descent into madness and I love how Buffy and Faith deal with it differently. That relationship between them is one of my favorite ones in the show and I wish they would explored it even further later on in the show's run, but I'll take what I can get.

 

Eliza Dushku is also doing some very fine work in this episode. Her acting does not always convince me, especially in the shows that she was in post-Buffy, but she's just perfect here.

 

I love the music in this episode too, the Faith murder cue that runs through the episode is really haunting.

If Buffy is all about growing up then it is Buffy the adult who asks for help whilst Faith's reaction is to run and hide and deny? 

 I love Eliza's acting, especially Dollhouse which really showed he range. 

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎17‎/‎07‎/‎2018 at 9:21 PM, nosleepforme said:

Off-topic, but: 

She doesn't show that much range in Dollhouse, that was the whole problem of the show ! I mean, I still liked her and sometimes she did good a job, but whenever she had to play something out of her comfort zone, you could always tell that she was "acting-acting" vs. her bad girl/tomboy persona with vulnerability underneath, which just comes naturally to her. I love Eliza, but she does, IMO, best when a character is written to her strengths as an actress rather than having her try to play something different from that.

No, I really liked her in Dollhouse, especially in eps like Haunted where she plays so much against type. I always thought the problem with Dollhouse was it was hard to have the characters develop when they got wiped every week. 

[K42]

Eliza was great in Tru Calling. It still pisses me off that it got cancelled.

 

Also, did Buffy ever accidentally kill another human being? I always thought Giles and the rest were a little too hard on Faith.

Spoiler

When Buffy was ready to lead the potential slayers into a fight, she was seen as heroic and a warrior. I know she got into trouble with the rest but after kicking her out, they got her and back and she eventually went with the plan knowing that some of the slayers would die. 

When Faith accidentally stabbed the man, everyone started saying stuff along the lines of "she's too far gone". I know Buffy "gave her a chance" but it felt forced. It's like nobody considered the fact that maybe that was her way of dealing with trauma. Buffy kept pestering her to come forward. Maybe she needed more time. I know that sometimes it looked like everyone wanted to give her a chance but I also think they weren't patient enough with her. They judged her too quick. Had Buffy done that, she would have been forgiven by her friends or they would have at least been lenient on her. Faith comes from a broken home and has never fit in anywhere. I always felt like Buffy and the rest wanted to be friends with her but at the same time, they made her feel like an outsider. 

I know those two scenarios are different but I feel like there were always double standards. When Buffy messes up, It's because she "had to". When Faith did it, she gets shunned.

[K42]

On 17/7/2018 at 11:21 PM, nosleepforme said:

Off-topic, but: 

She doesn't show that much range in Dollhouse, that was the whole problem of the show ! I mean, I still liked her and sometimes she did good a job, but whenever she had to play something out of her comfort zone, you could always tell that she was "acting-acting" vs. her bad girl/tomboy persona with vulnerability underneath, which just comes naturally to her. I love Eliza, but she does, IMO, best when a character is written to her strengths as an actress rather than having her try to play something different from that.

I feel the same way about SMG. As for Eliza Dusky, you should give Tru Calling a chance. 

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎30‎/‎07‎/‎2018 at 11:59 AM, The Raw Category said:

Eliza was great in Tru Calling. It still pisses me off that it got cancelled.

 

Also, did Buffy ever accidentally kill another human being? I always thought Giles and the rest were a little too hard on Faith.

  Hide contents

When Buffy was ready to lead the potential slayers into a fight, she was seen as heroic and a warrior. I know she got into trouble with the rest but after kicking her out, they got her and back and she eventually went with the plan knowing that some of the slayers would die. 

When Faith accidentally stabbed the man, everyone started saying stuff along the lines of "she's too far gone". I know Buffy "gave her a chance" but it felt forced. It's like nobody considered the fact that maybe that was her way of dealing with trauma. Buffy kept pestering her to come forward. Maybe she needed more time. I know that sometimes it looked like everyone wanted to give her a chance but I also think they weren't patient enough with her. They judged her too quick. Had Buffy done that, she would have been forgiven by her friends or they would have at least been lenient on her. Faith comes from a broken home and has never fit in anywhere. I always felt like Buffy and the rest wanted to be friends with her but at the same time, they made her feel like an outsider. 

I know those two scenarios are different but I feel like there were always double standards. When Buffy messes up, It's because she "had to". When Faith did it, she gets shunned.

Loved Tru Calling, when you read on IMDB/Wikipedia what they had in store for the second season it is such a shame!

Spoiler

 Big difference between Buffy and Faith, Buffy leads the Potentials to war knowing some will die but then Faith did the same and no one thought ill of her. It's more Faith's reaction to what happened than anything else. Look at Buffy's reaction when she thinks she's killed Katrina.

 The council DOES forgive and rehabilitate Faith but she is too far gone.  

On ‎30‎/‎07‎/‎2018 at 12:04 PM, The Raw Category said:

I feel the same way about SMG. As for Eliza Dusky, you should give Tru Calling a chance. 

No, I don't see that, they both have great range, I just think we love them as their Buffy characters so much we like to see it in every performance. 

Edited July 31, 2018 by Joe Hellandback

[K42]

19 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Loved Tru Calling, when you read on IMDB/Wikipedia what they had in store for the second season it is such a shame!

  Reveal hidden contents

 Big difference between Buffy and Faith, Buffy leads the Potentials to war knowing some will die but then Faith did the same and no one thought ill of her. It's more Faith's reaction to what happened than anything else. Look at Buffy's reaction when she thinks she's killed Katrina.

 The council DOES forgive and rehabilitate Faith but she is too far gone.  

No, I don't see that, they both have great range, I just think we love them as their Buffy characters so much we like to see it in every performance. 

 

Don't remind me of Tru Calling. I'm still furious that it got cancelled. The writer had a blog a few years ago where she posted everything that would have happened in detail. I'm still pissed about that.

 

Here are some of her Journals

https://tightropegirl.livejournal.com/8630.html

https://tightropegirl.livejournal.com/8190.html

https://tightropegirl.livejournal.com/8396.html

 

I think there were two more also. I hate when a series ends on a cliffhanger. It really turns me off from watching other series. They should bring Tru Calling back. 

Edited August 1, 2018 by The Raw Category

[Delphi]

The way the gang ends up rallying against faith is possibly what tarnished my opinions of them for the rest of the series.   Giles is the only one who was like "duh, accidents happen. "  While everyone else was like "murderer!"  Faith didn't murder anyone in this scenario, Willow was jealous of Faith, Buffy was self righteous as fuck.   Xander... well was himself. 

Buffy never tried to help Faith as much as she claimed to. 

And in light of their later interactions with people and who the associate with it's honestly startling. 

Sure an argument could be made that they grew up and no longer see the world in black and white,  but that was never stated.   It just seems like they felt like Faith was in the way so they held her to a different standard as a reason to exclude and judge her. 

[Joe Hellandback]

5 hours ago, Delphi said:

The way the gang ends up rallying against faith is possibly what tarnished my opinions of them for the rest of the series.   Giles is the only one who was like "duh, accidents happen. "  While everyone else was like "murderer!"  Faith didn't murder anyone in this scenario, Willow was jealous of Faith, Buffy was self righteous as fuck.   Xander... well was himself. 

Buffy never tried to help Faith as much as she claimed to. 

And in light of their later interactions with people and who the associate with it's honestly startling. 

Sure an argument could be made that they grew up and no longer see the world in black and white,  but that was never stated.   It just seems like they felt like Faith was in the way so they held her to a different standard as a reason to exclude and judge her. 

Well remember Faith tries to frame Buffy and strangle Xander, it wasn't what Faith did but how she handled it, contrast this to Buffy when she thinks 

Spoiler

she has killed Katrina?

[lembergwatcher]

7 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Let's have some empathy, you're a teenage boy, you're currently unattached and you're offered (in fact virtually forced?) to have sex with stunningly beautiful Slayer Faith?  No one in the world would turn her down, Kurt Hummel would go for it. Plus Willow is with Oz so it's not like he's cheating on her? And she's already offered herself to Oz sexually and asked him to make out with her as revenge on Xander? 

Yeah, but Willow for some unknown reason reacts as if Xander was cheating on her, though it's totally meaningles since the whole "no-touching rule" and reconciliation with Oz in previous eps. If she really expected Xander to be her first, then it's she who appears in a slightly bad light here. Because this is just another proof that she never really loved Oz with all her heart and the guy was nothing more than a substitute for Xander. Then we have another case of pure possessiveness: if Willow can't sleep with Xander, then no one else can.

And why in the world did Xander have to take something like 'I love you, Xander' coming from Willow's mouth seriously if it was the same Willow who continued to date Wolfboy the very next morning as if nothing happened? She was the last person to be mad at Xander for the whole Faith affair.  In fact it was Xander who had every right to be mad for his so-called friends treating him the way they did. If Buffy and the others didn't take an "no super powers = stay away" approach, then there most likely would be no cause for Willow to cry in the toilet...

[Halting Hex]

Well, it's not as if Willow has to be completely rational about this. I mean, by the time she finds out about these events,  Xander has just spent several days lying to her ("My eye totally isn't twitching when you say Faith's name!")

Spoiler

while Oz has snuck out of town on a "band trip" without bothering to tell her.

It's not surprising that she's feeling a little bereft.  And then Xander almost brags about the encounter, how his "connection" can help them get through to Faith.  (If by "get through", you mean get choked and nearly murdered, um, sure, Xan.)

I don't blame her for feeling empty, for having years' worth of hopes and dreams come crashing down on her.  How often had she imagined her and Xander's wedding, and their wedding night?  A quick roll in the hay at the local hot-sheet motel with a disreputable girl whom they barely know is not how she imagined Xander's first time, I wouldn't think.  (Not to mention the part where she'd just said "I love you" and he's letting Faith "steer him around the curves" before she even gets back to the Library. Or the part where Oz turned her down in Amends because it wasn't The Right Time.)

Is she being snobbish and proprietary and a bit irrational?  Yes, yes, and yes.  But I can see where she's coming from. 

Better than Buffy "We have to save Faith" Summers can, apparently. 

Edited August 18, 2018 by Halting Hex

[lembergwatcher]

After watching this ep I was kinda shocked to learn they let Faith continue slaying despite the assault and attempted murder of Xander and one of the Watcher Council's team members. I bet Buffy, Giles or Wesley never even asked the Slayer #2 to sort-of apologize to her near-victim. Logically that should have sent Xander a clear message that in the eyes of Scooby Gang leadership his life mattered less than the ones of Buffy's boyfriend or sister slayer. 

Spoiler

With Angel's fist-fighting skills in Enemies it was "just an act", what could be possible excuse for Faith?

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎18‎/‎08‎/‎2018 at 3:19 PM, lembergwatcher said:

Yeah, but Willow for some unknown reason reacts as if Xander was cheating on her, though it's totally meaningles since the whole "no-touching rule" and reconciliation with Oz in previous eps. If she really expected Xander to be her first, then it's she who appears in a slightly bad light here. Because this is just another proof that she never really loved Oz with all her heart and the guy was nothing more than a substitute for Xander. Then we have another case of pure possessiveness: if Willow can't sleep with Xander, then no one else can.

And why in the world did Xander have to take something like 'I love you, Xander' coming from Willow's mouth seriously if it was the same Willow who continued to date Wolfboy the very next morning as if nothing happened? She was the last person to be mad at Xander for the whole Faith affair.  In fact it was Xander who had every right to be mad for his so-called friends treating him the way they did. If Buffy and the others didn't take an "no super powers = stay away" approach, then there most likely would be no cause for Willow to cry in the toilet...

It was illogical but an oh so human reaction on her part. 

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎18‎/‎08‎/‎2018 at 8:38 PM, lembergwatcher said:

After watching this ep I was kinda shocked to learn they let Faith continue slaying despite the assault and attempted murder of Xander and one of the Watcher Council's team members. I bet Buffy, Giles or Wesley never even asked the Slayer #2 to sort-of apologize to her near-victim. Logically that should have sent Xander a clear message that in the eyes of Scooby Gang leadership his life mattered less than the ones of Buffy's boyfriend or sister slayer. 

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With Angel's fist-fighting skills in Enemies it was "just an act", what could be possible excuse for Faith?

Not true, Buffy and all the Scoobs love Xander but they love Faith too, Xander understands, not least because of his actions in Becoming, a painful deception to benefit the whole group. 

[Halting Hex]

On 8/7/2018 at 9:36 AM, Delphi said:

Faith didn't murder anyone in this scenario

Faith gets sloppy and emotional and out of control when she's fighting "vampires", as seen as far back as Faith, Hope, and Trick.  Woe betide any civilians who get in her way, as Allan unfortunately found out.  Perhaps not deliberate murder, but arguably murder-two ("reckless disregard for human life") and at least manslaughter.

In contrast,

Spoiler

next episode we see Buffy wanting to outdo Faith on the tests, Wesley saying that Faith is "still a little sloppy", and Buffy ultimately being able to hear Willow shouting "Buffy, no!" just as Buffy was about to slay Vamp Willow and being able to stop herself, leading to this exchange:

Quote

WILLOW: Nice reflexes.

BUFFY:  Well, I work out.

The implication is plain; if Faith had worked to have better control, Allan would still be alive.  So, yeah, it's on Faith. JMO.

Edited September 1, 2018 by Halting Hex

[Joe Hellandback]

12 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Faith gets sloppy and emotional and out of control when she's fighting "vampires", as seen as far back as Faith, Hope, and Trick.  Woe betide any civilians who get in her way, as Allan unfortunately found out.  Perhaps not deliberate murder, but arguably murder-two ("reckless disregard for human life") and at least manslaughter.

In contrast,

  Hide contents

 

next episode we see Buffy wanting to outdo Faith on the tests, Wesley saying that Faith is "still a little sloppy", and Buffy ultimately being able to hear Willow shouting "Buffy, no!" just as Buffy was about to slay Vamp Willow and being able to stop herself, leading to this exchange:

The implication is plain; if Faith had worked to have better control, Allan would still be alive.  So, yeah, it's on Faith. JMO.

 

Not fair, this is war, people are human and make mistakes, probably not a heroic figure in history who didn't experience 'friendly fire' or 'collateral damage'. 

[lembergwatcher]

The case with Mr. Trick is yet another example of the inconsistency of vampire rules

Spoiler

throughout the show

which is one of the things wrong with Buffy.

Quote

By the Slayer Handbook, the centuries old ways of vampires should never change, making it all the more confusing that the vampires never seem to follow their own logic.

[...]

In other moments, vampires' strengths have also varied with some easily able to bust through an iron door, while others find it hard to match up with the likes of Xander in a one-on-one fight. - http://www.tvandmovienews.com/2018/07/20-things-wrong-with-buffy-the-vampire-slayer-we-all-choose-to-ignore/

Only here we have the same vampire who nearly got Buffy killed in one ep but couldn't do anything about some cops who grabbed him and brought to the Mayor several episodes earlier.

[Joe Hellandback]

19 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

The case with Mr. Trick is yet another example of the inconsistency of vampire rules

  Hide contents

throughout the show

which is one of the things wrong with Buffy.

Only here we have the same vampire who nearly got Buffy killed in one ep but couldn't do anything about some cops who grabbed him and brought to the Mayor several episodes earlier.

Maybe the Mayor used some for of weakening magic?

[Halting Hex]

Does Trick even really come close to killing Buffy here?  It seems as though it's more a well-thought-out ambush than his overwhelming her.

As for the cops in Homecoming, perhaps he just decided to play along and see how that would go.  Trick probably thought he could break free if he needed to.  But it turned out that he hadn't that need.

[lembergwatcher]

Here's another question: does Xander really have to be that explicit about the whole "I have the special connection with Faith" concept? What's the deal? Either he's too dumb (although I refuse to believe in "Xander the idiot" theory) or he just wants some people in the cafeteria to know everything.

Or the writers were too adamant in making him look like a callous jerk - just to emphasize the supposed "coolness" of Oz and Angel.

[Halting Hex]

Oh, I'd hardly say that.  Buffy and Giles seem quite dubious and virtually drag it out of him:

Quote

GILES: Faith is too defensive for a confrontation like that. She'll respond better to a one-on-one approach.

XANDER: Well, I can be the one... on her one. (gets confused looks) Let's rephrase. I think she might listen to me. We kind of have, um, a connection.

BUFFY: A connection? Why would you think that...

XANDER: (interrupts) I'm just saying it's worth a shot. That's all.

(Buffy and Willow exchange a look.)

GILES: No, I don't, I don't see it, Xander. I mean, of, of all of us, you're the one person arguably that Faith has had the least contact with.

How does Giles think he knows this, exactly?  Has he been monitoring Xander and Willow's time away from school to find out which of them hangs out with Faith more often?  Willow has a boyfriend; Xander is single and might be interested in an attractive young Slayer.  It's not rocket science, Tweed Boy.

Anyway…

Quote

XANDER: Yeah, but we hung out a little... recently, and she seemed to be, um... responsive.

(Willow picks up on that, and figures it out. She looks sadly off into space.)

BUFFY: When did you guys hang out?

FFS, Buffy, what are you, jealous?  Why do you care when Faith hung out with Xander?  Why can't you just take your friend's word?

Quote

XANDER: Oh, she was fighting one of those, uh, apocalypse demon things, and I helped her. Gave her a ride home.

BUFFY: And you guys talked?

XANDER: (shakes his head) Not extensively. No.

BUFFY: Then why would you... (figures it out also, widens her eyes with surprise) Oh.

Gee, now Buffy finally figures out why Faith was asking if Buffy had ever "done it" with Xander.  Way to go, dummy…

Quote

GILES: (gets it, surprised) Oh!

Giles, OTOH, is learning.  Buffy had to practically crawl all over Jenny in the classroom (in Innocence) before Giles figured out that whole "Buffy and Angel boinked" thing.  (Despite the fact that he and Jenny were discussing how close Buffy and Angel were getting in a cut scene in Surprise.)  Yes, Ripper, sometimes the kids have the sex.  And they don't even need demons and/or gay orgies to do so.

Quote

(He and Buffy both look at Willow, concerned. She notices and looks up.) 

WILLOW: I don't need to say 'oh'. I got it before. They slept together.

Awwwww. :'(

But anyway, it takes no fewer than six questions from Buffy and Giles before Xander discloses enough that even these thickos can get the picture.  If they'd just let Xander's talk of a nebulous "connection" stand, Willow wouldn't have ended up weeping in that bathroom.  And Buffy and Giles had lots of opportunities to let Xander try his hand, no matter his reason.

But no, they needed to know all the details.  Well, now they have them.  But it sure wasn't Xander's idea, IMO.

On 12/12/2018 at 8:02 PM, lembergwatcher said:

Or the writers were too adamant in making him look like a callous jerk - just to emphasize the supposed "coolness" of Oz and Angel

Could be a long-term issue, and Xander does need Angel to save his ass at the motel, it's true.

But this episode is hardly useful for claiming that Xander is being sacrificed on the altar of Oz…given that Wolf-Boy is completely missing from this one.

Edited December 17, 2018 by Halting Hex

[lembergwatcher]

He was explicit enough for Willow to get everything right quite fast. He could have omitted the whole "we have a connection" nonsense. He could have said something like "Buffy, Giles, just trust me. I know what I'm saying. I wanna be useful part of the team again!" which was completely logical considering recent events. He could have pretended he was in a hurry, brushing aside further questions and thus not letting Giles and Buffy turn the conversation into interrogation. Or he could have asked the question you just asked: "Giles, have you been monitoring my time away from school?" and so on.

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎13‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 9:26 AM, lembergwatcher said:

He was explicit enough for Willow to get everything right quite fast. He could have omitted the whole "we have a connection" nonsense. He could have said something like "Buffy, Giles, just trust me. I know what I'm saying. I wanna be useful part of the team again!" which was completely logical considering recent events. He could have pretended he was in a hurry, brushing aside further questions and thus not letting Giles and Buffy turn the conversation into interrogation. Or he could have asked the question you just asked: "Giles, have you been monitoring my time away from school?" and so on.

Xander is pretty subtle for a teenage boy, he's trying NOT to hurt Willow. 

[lembergwatcher]

He should try a little bit harder.

[Halting Hex]

On 12/13/2018 at 4:26 AM, lembergwatcher said:

"I wanna be a useful part of the team again!"

I think Giles would have smacked down the idea that the group's outreach to Faith would be subordinate to Xander's emotional needs right quickly.  And well he should have.

"I can help because Faith and I have a connection" has a chance of being productive.  "Wah-wah-wah, what about ME?? I wanna play too!" seems notably less so, IMO.

[lembergwatcher]

The group was subordinate to Buffy's emotional needs, moods and tantrums on more ocassions. Even when the stakes were much higher (i.e. Restoration spell). But (almost) everyone followed like a puppy back then. Why wouldn't Giles give Xander a free hand once in a while? 

Edited December 18, 2018 by lembergwatcher

[Halting Hex]

Okay, so the sight of Willow sobbing in the bathroom didn't quite have Liam in a quivering ball, after all. (Although he did quaver a "Don't be sad! You have Oz!" command at her.  Sorry, pal…your "cinnamon roll" knows her heart. 😉 )  That's okay…I don't really need to pull the wings off of the Willoz 'shippers that cruelly, I suppose.  And it's a shallow revenge to ignore the fact that the Xillow in that scene is about Willow getting her heart broken, which of course I hardly approve of.

(Liam did mutter some imprecations at Xander for "causing" Willow's reaction, but quite properly quickly took them back.  As it's hardly logical for someone opposed to Xillow to be upset that Xander is moving on, after all. )

The other notable moment in his reaction came when Angel was giving his "to kill is to feel like a god" speech to Faith, and Liam thought this was Angel remembering Jenny, which I don't know if I can quite get behind.  After all, Broody Boy has killed a lot of humans, from his parents up through Rage!Pete, most recently.  To specify that he's thinking about Jenny here seems a bit of a leap, IMO…although that is the primary face the First took to torment him, it's true. Interesting idea, I'll allow.

Myself, I noticed this time that when Buffy goes to confess to Giles and Giles "disbelieves" her, he say "I don't want to hear any more lies!" and Buffy takes this to think Giles thinks she's lying to him, of course.  But, in fact, Giles has just heard a plateload of lies…it's just that they were coming from Faith ("not one of her talents", to paraphrase what he says).  I don't actually think that Giles is cleverly calling out Faith here (it seems more like Marti's authorial hand at work), but it is still clever that what seems to be misdirection turns to be literally true.

And before that, as much as it pains me as a Buffy/Willow 'shipper to admit it, I saw the "fester-free" scene (which is honestly Marti being a bit clunky with the Willow-speak; the second half of that scene, after Buffy's breakdown, flows more organically) and I thought Aly kind of forced the hug…I mean, it makes sense that Willow would want to hug Buffy when Buffy breaks down and starts crying, but it wasn't quite as natural as I would have liked it to play.  I don't know, I'll have to look at it again.  I mean, I want to adore the scene (and overall, I do), but it just felt a little "off", just then.  JMO.

[lembergwatcher]

11 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

"Don't be sad! You have Oz!"

Of course, she has. Only Mr. WolfAss seems to be nowhere in sight.

Spoiler

Probably because he's shagging with his band's groupies in Monterey or Joss knows where at the moment. Man, I just love Wild at Heart (well, except for that pathetic final scene).

Ok, I don't wanna start another long and useless rant here.

[lembergwatcher]

The episode that's supposed to be about Faith's descend into darkness, is in fact about Buffy's slow character assassination. At least from my perspective. Take one exchange, for example:

Quote

Faith: (exhilarated) That's right, better. People need us to survive. In the balance, nobody's gonna cry over some random bystander who got caught in the crossfire.

Buffy: (sadly) I am.

Of course you are, Buffy. You care so much about all those innocent people your current boyfriend killed in cold blood not so long ago, you almost never raise that subject while snuggling in the mansion. Not to mention your eagerness to give Angel another chance like nothing happened. I like the way Buffy "cares" about one man accidently killed by Faith, while choosing to turn a blind eye on the piles of bodies left by her broody object of desire.

The whole Finch crisis... Is it such a big deal to Buffy because she really cares for all the people out there and has some moral high ground or she just views the accident as yet another opportunity to strengthen her superiority complex and prove (to both others and herself) that she's so much better than her raven-haired slaying sis and she can never do something like this (despite her encounter with Ted twenty six eps earlier)?

We may think whatever we want about Faith but I find it hard to disagree with her here:

Quote

You can pretend that Angel's still dead when you need to protect him

It's one thing to act like some Little Miss holier than thou when it comes to Faith and her crimes. It's another thing when some supposed morally superior heroine doesn't mind cheating & lying (like Buffy did from Beauty and the Beasts to Revelations) 

Spoiler

or trying to take a human life (Graduation Day, Part 1)

when it suits her. One cannot be righteous one moment and then adopt the moral ambiguity when it suits his or her agenda. JMO though.

[Halting Hex]

10 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

One cannot be righteous one moment and then adopt the moral ambiguity when it suits his or her agenda.

Sure one can.  Being a hypocrite doesn't mean you still can't be right.  The fact that Buffy has a blind spot the size of Angel's forehead sometimes doesn't mean that she can't see when Faith is clearly wrong.  Might piss Faith off that she gets held to a higher standard, but that doesn't mean she doesn't deserve to be.  If she wouldn't be sticking stakes into passing Deputy Mayors just because she was "getting off" on the violence she was doing, she wouldn't be in this mess.  Buffy's greater tolerance for (Temporarily Non-) Broody Boy's failings aside.

Otherwise, you could argue that Buffy's giving Angel a chance to be "a righteous man" means that she should have run off with Spike and be guarding the doors to make sure he and Drusilla aren't being interrupted while they pig out at their local all-you-can-eat moron bar.  There's no reason Buffy can't sometimes do better than her worst.  But JMO, myself.

[Halting Hex]

Well, well, well, boys and boys, girls and girls, look what we have here…

Something bright and shiny near Xander's throat.

A ring, in fact.

A ring on Faith's thumb.

A ring on Faith's right thumb.

Ring (pardon the pun) any bells?  I mean, it's not as if this is too obscure; Flashforward explicitly had someone call the Janis Hawk character out on this and she was, in fact, "outed" a couple of episodes later.

So, theories?

A)  it's a clever bit of signaling that there's a reason why Faith isn't particularly interested in the guys she "has a connection" with.  This may be Marti's episode rather than Doug Petrie's (he wrote the first part, though), but Marti has two moms

Spoiler

(which is why her handling of W/T in Season Sux annoyed the lesbian community so, but I digress),

so she's probably not ignorant on that front, either.

B)  it's Eliza's own ring and all those rumors about how brother Nate isn't the only non-straight Dushku are more than just rumors, after all.  And now we know why she and Sarah were spending all that time in the trailer "running lines".  (Okay, we don't have any actual reports of this, the way we have "blind items" about Smidge kissing girls in restaurants and reports of her hooking up with a lady after a concert in Denver in 2004, but it wouldn't surprise me, personally.)

C) it's just a ring, Eliza's perfectly "normal", this is all coincidence!  Nobody had any idea about this, honestly!  (In Hollywood? Really?) You people are…well, the conservative part of fandom is upset and it can't think of a bad word right now, but that's what you are!

Thoughts?

[lembergwatcher]

I choose B).

25 minutes ago, Halting Hex said:

"blind items" about Smidge kissing girls in restaurants and reports of her hooking up with a lady after a concert in Denver in 2004

Poor Freddie Prinze...

Edited March 14, 2019 by lembergwatcher

[Halting Hex]

[OT] Allegedly, Freddie went in with eyes open about SMG's bisexuality.  Even more allegedly, FPJ has an unusual sexual fetish (I'm not going to talk about it, but Google is your friend) and so it's an "I'm cool with this if you're cool with that" sort of relationship.

Not that it's a perfect match (they were separated for nearly all of 2006), but they seem to have worked it all out, and are much closer since they decided to have kids.  And, for all I know, Eliza may have moved past her f/f days and be perfectly content with her new hubby.  (It's not as if she's still "dating" Seth McFarlane, after all.)

But hey, they'll always have Paris.  Or somewhere… [/OT]

[lembergwatcher]

On 3/13/2019 at 1:13 AM, Halting Hex said:

Being a hypocrite doesn't mean you still can't be right.  The fact that Buffy has a blind spot the size of Angel's forehead sometimes doesn't mean that she can't see when Faith is clearly wrong.  Might piss Faith off that she gets held to a higher standard, but that doesn't mean she doesn't deserve to be.

Buffy clearly does have a point here and Faith shouldn't be allowed to slaughter Deputy Mayors on a weekly basis. OTOH I'd appreciate Buffy's integrity more if there was a little less pathos and a little less righteous anger in her voice. Like she's, you know, some sort of Mother Teresa lecturing a mass murderer. Because she sure as hell isn't.

Btw, it seems suspicious that Buffy apparently didn't ask Giles "what happens when the innocent (non-monster) dies by the Slayer's hand" after "killing" Ted for the first time. She should have been curious about Giles' and Council's possible moves in case she's proven guilty of either first degree murder or involuntary manslaughter, i.e. whether she'd be handed over to the cops or the Council would take care of things all by itself. The first possibility is close to zero since U.S. penitentiary system is not intended to keep superpowered girls behind bars, while the Council probably won't care that much about Finch

Spoiler

(which turned out to be true eventually).

Telling Faith something like "Look, I know what you did is bad and your attitude is wrong, and you need rehabilitation of some sort, and you have to work on yourself and your mistakes, but no one's gonna hand you over to the authorities, while me and Wesley will do everythinng to persuade the Council to be lenient" before she attacked Xander would've been more appropriate IMO. At least it would have been a slightly better way to deal with everything than B/G/A stupid horseplay behind Wesley's back which provoked even more idiotic response from the official Watcher.

Giles acting in a "I'm a big dick and I don't care" way, i.e. his clear contempt for Wesley, despite all those "coolness", "rebellion" and "anti-establishment" shticks, did more damage than good in the long run.

Edited March 17, 2019 by lembergwatcher

[Halting Hex]

So, I saw The Zeppo (which I don't watch that often) recently, and during that Faith/Xander encounter, there's no thumb ring to be seen.  So, did Xander cure Faith of the boys?  Did she decide, while washing his man-smell away, that Buffy wouldn't need so much help being steered around the curves?  Or is Eliza signifying the difference between seductive!Faith in 3.13 and hostile!Faith here in her own subtle way?

(Or is it just that Eliza wore the ring for whatever reason [maybe she was planning a night in WeHo afterwards?] and it has nothing to do with the character at all?  Quite likely…but boring, lol.)

********************

Quote

BUFFY:  Less than 24 hours ago, you killed a man.

No, no, wrong.  Act III of Bad Girls establishes that it's Saturday. (Joyce says so when she goes on about the waffles, and much as I enjoy bagging on Joyce, I do think she usually knows what day it is.  Also, that's consistent with what Willow and others said about the test, earlier in the episode.)  Allan dies on Saturday night.  In the tag we see that it's daytime (presumably the next day, Sunday) when Buffy visits Faith and finds her washing the blood away.

Buffy has her nightmare (and wakes to view news of the discovery of Allan's body) in the teaser of this episode, which is Sunday night.   (Again, presumably.)  Then we have the school scenes in Act I, and B/F go investigating on Monday night.  So, more than "24 hours", more like 48, actually.

(And it was Oz who got held back?  Huh.)

Of course, Buffy does get backup on the issue:

Quote

FAITH:  I missed the mark last night, and I'm sorry, but—

Sigh.  No, Faith.  Don't let Buffy drag you down. 

And of course Detective Stein is busy questioning witnesses (and eventually the Slayers themselves) about "last night", too…but "the police of Sunnydale are deeply stupid", after all.  It's just distressing to see such sloppy work, all around.

(More specifically, Marti Noxon, if you're hired to write the second half of a two-parter, you might want to read the part 1 script.  Just saying.   Although really the script supervisor, aka "continuity", should catch this, regardless.)

*************************

Quote

BUFFY (at Willow's):  I need to talk to you.

ALLEY BOX:  You going to apologize to Willow, maybe?

Oh, Alley,  We're 15 episodes in by now.  Don't you know that Season 3 Buffy doesn't apologize to her "friends"?  (Indeed, once Buffy starts crying, Willow has to apologize to her.)

Spoiler

Don't get me started, don't get me started…it's not Same Time, Still Bitchy bad, but you can see it from here.

It's just painful because Aly played Willow as almost physically hurt and cringing away from Buffy in the school scene in Act 1.  Yes, it's nice she opens up to Willow.  But still.  I miss the (nonexistent) apology here, too.

To be fair, at least Allan's death has gotten Season 3 Buffy to care about innocent victims again.  (Where were the tears for the hundreds of slaves you left in Ken's dimension, Buff?  For the people whom the zombies killed in your own house?  For Pete and Debbie?  For the shopkeeper in Lovers Walk*? For Hobson and Blair?  As far as I can tell, the only civilian deaths Buffy's given a shit about this year were the kids in Gingerbread, who turned out not to actually be real.  Sigh.)  So, that's progress of a sort.

*****************************

So Buffy decides to tell Giles about Allan, regardless of what Faith wants, but when she finds Faith there, she backtracks into some bull about skipping classes.  Er, it's nice that she's ultimately honest with Giles, I guess…but why is she lying just because Faith's present, exactly?  Was she afraid to talk in front of Faith?  I'd like to think Buffy was made of sterner stuff. 

Quote

ALLEY BOX (upset that Giles seems to believe Faith):  I know Buffy lied about Angel, but—!

Oh, don't worry, Alley!  Did you really think that there would be any conseq—, er, repercussions to a trivial matter such as Buffy spending weeks lying to everyone she's supposed to care about?  Don't be silly!

Benefits of being a title character, don't you know?

******************************

Quote

XANDER (to Faith):  Can I come in?

As I've said, I like that Xander's polite.  But I'm not exactly thrilled that he has to ask for entry (and reassure Faith that he's not there to rape her), when I know that Buffy (or Angel) would hardly bother with such formalities.  I guess manners are just for Puny Humans, huh?  Sigh.

*******************************

You know, if Angel could see what's happening between Xander and Faith, he kind of takes his sweet time, doesn't he?  Get on the stick, bat-man!

(One of my favorite "Lines You'll Never Hear on BtVS" creations was where Angel barges in and F/X are actually just having sex and Xander cusses Angel out and kicks him out of the room [somewhat to Faith's disappointment…].  So I get that Angel wanted to be sure.  But still.)

*******************************

So…Mr. Trick's big Slayer-slaying plan was to have a cargo crate winched high, just hoping that Buffy and Faith would come to the docks (why should he think that?) and wander under that one particular spot, so that he could drop it on them, is that it?  Seems rather a long shot, tbh.  Perhaps some sniper rifles would be more practical?  (David Hines was bummed that Trick went out so easily, after he'd talked about Uzis in the previous ep.  Good point.)

********************************

When Faith shows up at the Mayor's office door, Alley notes that he's invincible at the moment.  Which, to be honest, I'd forgotten for a second.  That explains why he's unruffled to have a Slayer dropping by, obviously.  Perhaps they should have spotlighted that in this episode?  It was a significant plot development, after all.

*********************************

*-So, did Buffy and Angel know that Spike had killed the shopkeeper when they just let him stroll off at the end of 3.08?  Hard to imagine, although you can say that they must have known Spike had committed some murders somewhere, and thus deserved to be brought to justice, sappy "Love's Bitch" speeches and "wisdom" aside.

And if they didn't know, do you think they regretted it when Willow (presumably) told them?  Again, I'd like to think so, but…

Edited July 6, 2021 by Halting Hex

[lembergwatcher]

On 7/6/2021 at 7:36 AM, Halting Hex said:

To be fair, at least Allan's death has gotten Season 3 Buffy to care about innocent victims again.

Is it actually caring about innocent victims or the fact that Miss Summers herself is an accomplice in the murder of Mr. Finch?

From the script of the previous episode:

Quote

They walk down the alley - and a hand reaches out and grasps Buffy's shoulder. She grabs her assailant and throws him against the wall by Faith.

BUFFY

That was too easy...

She stops. Eyes wide.

BUFFY

Faith, WAIT!

Too late. Faith STAKES the guy, right in the chest. She steps aside. Light from a street lamp illuminates the assailant's face. It's NOT A VAMPIRE.

It's the Deputy Mayor

I don't understand how people can consider Faith a cold blooded murderer for staking Deputy Mayor Finch and then view Buffy who grabbed the guy and threw him against the wall by Faith as some sort of an "innocent bystander"? What if Buffy was just trying to feel better about herself by emphasizing the other Slayer's role in the aforementioned crime?

 

On 7/6/2021 at 7:36 AM, Halting Hex said:

Where were the tears for the hundreds of slaves you left in Ken's dimension, Buff?

I'd like to think anyone who took that dimension over following Ken's demise has introduced some reforms, i.e. more liberal labor laws, started paying those people for their work and even allowed them to organize some trade unions... 

On 7/6/2021 at 7:36 AM, Halting Hex said:

*-So, did Buffy and Angel know that Spike had killed the shopkeeper when they just let him stroll off at the end of 3.08?

I always thought they knew. Shouldn't Buffy have guessed it because of, you know, the whole crime scene appearance and the police tape?..

Quote

INT. MAGIC SHOP - NIGHT

As the door is forced open by Buffy. It swings in, Buffy ripping police tape off the door frame as she enters. Holding it up to Spike:

BUFFY

Your work?

SPIKE

(ignoring her)

Here's the list.

If Buffy can kiss Angel passionately (as we all saw in Revelations) knowing damn well he drank human blood and not feel physically sick or let Angel hug her (even though his hands had snapped Jenny's neck not so long ago), why should Slayer Almighty give a damn about some dead shopkeepers?