S03.E11: Gingerbread

[Joe Hellandback]

The Good; Host of good stuff, the hysteria, the fiery climax, the mislead with Willow, Amy! The Buffy/Joyce scenes are superb, great to meet Will's mum. Love the Mayor's very careful tiptoeing around MOO and Principle Snyder is a joy to behold

The Bad; A TV cliché but surely the police would take longer than 5 minutes to get a statement from Joyce and Buffy and wouldn't leave them hanging around the crime scene. Also the demon at the end with the stake through its' throat is very obviously a perspective gag.

Best line; Joyce; "Oh my god it's mister Sanderson from the bank!" just pipping Willow's; "You do doodle"

Shot; no but Giles is intimidated by a security guard with a gun

Tied up; Willow, Amy and Buffy

Knocked out; Buffy and Giles by Joyce using chloroform. Cordy asks how many times Giles has been knocked out, I figure it must be a dozen or more. Love her line about 'waking up in a coma' although it's rather ironic given the events of

Spoiler

'You're Welcome'.

Women good/men bad; in this case it's the women who lead the crusade/lynch-mob

Kinky dinky; Giles and Joyce are at least talking to one another now but still awkward. Willow implores the dark forces to 'fill her with their black naughtiness' which one day

Spoiler

they will.

Xander has Playboys in his locker which is surprisingly classy porn considering what we know about him. As I recall it was actually the story of the little Dutch boy with his fist in the dyke but that's probably too kinky even for Joss. Giles logs into the 'Frisky watchers chatroom' which I'm sure someone launched at some time

Calling Captain Subtext; The not so subtle implication is a rant against those who wish to censor Buffy or criticise it for it's occult features. But really it's against bigotry and mob rule anywhere. Ironically I remember this ep being censored on the BBC at the point where Buffy stakes the demon at the end. Buffy seems unaware that 'dyke' is another word for dam which makes her expression when Angel refers to having "a finger in the dyke" all the more hilarious.

Guantanamo Bay; SDH has it's civil liberties suspended, Snyder glorying in his power

Questions and observations; Where do people get chloroform, I mean can you just buy it down the chemist? This ep marks the beginning of Cordy's eventual reintegration into the Scooby gang as she helps Giles save Buff&co and Oz and Xander reconcile. The first appearance of rat Amy. Someone should tell Michael that the New Romantic era is over. When Joyce and Buffy have their talk at SDH they're standing under a poster saying 'Blood required again'. You rather wonder that no one has thought to form a vigilante group to counter the Hellmouth evil before? Joyce refers to 'neck rupture', presumably the authorities term for vampire killings. Snyder misquotes Apocalypse Now

Spoiler

which he will appear in a parody of at the end of season 4.

Once again Buffy's status as the Slayer seems common knowledge to judge by the boys reaction to her at the school. Willow claims that she's sacrificed the local goats,

Spoiler

one day she will sacrifice Bambi.

Ironically of course as Lily on HIMYM she'll save Missy the Goat from the knife. 

So lovely that Joyce comes along to Buffy's Slaying patrol. You have to agree with Snyder that it's rather weird for Giles to have such a wide selection of books dedicated to the supernatural in the library. It's a great turnaround that Joyce the parent relies on Buffy the child to console her from the evils she's seen. She has a point that Sunnydale isn't getting any better, they're not running out of vampires. But as

Spoiler

'The Wish' and 'Dopplegangland' prove Buffy&co make a huge difference.

One wonders what

Spoiler

Dawn makes of all this?

Love Giles struggling with the computer, can't he call the Council for help?

Angel and Buffy's talk is interesting especially in light of

Spoiler

his crisis of faith in season 2 of his own show.

No Faith which is a shame, love to see where she would stand in all of this. Xander and Oz in the air ducts speaks of every cliché in every action film ever. A hint of Amy's true colours as Buffy observes "She couldn't do us first". Lovely fanfic called 'The Mayoress' based on this one where The Mayor falls in love with Joyce and gives up evil to marry her and become Buffy, Faith and Dawn's loving stepfather.

 Ironically Torrance where much of Buffy was filmed was at the centre of the 'Satanic Panic' daycare sexual abuse hysteria of the 90s, something I think we may be seeing repeated today on a smaller scale. 
8/10 again, very good but not truly great

[Spartan Girl]

Kind of wish we had a scene of Joyce apologizing to Buffy afterward. Spell or not, she told her to her face that she just wanted a normal daughter -- not to mention almost burning her alive. The "selective memory" crap was a cop out.

[Joe Hellandback]

10 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Kind of wish we had a scene of Joyce apologizing to Buffy afterward. Spell or not, she told her to her face that she just wanted a normal daughter -- not to mention almost burning her alive. The "selective memory" crap was a cop out.

Some things are best left to the imagination, like Willow's freaked reaction to the events of BBB or Giles telling off

Spoiler

Dawn in All The Way

[lembergwatcher]

Quote

Xander: But the fact that I know that doesn't change that I have a genuine complaint here. Look. I'm getting sick of the judgment, the innuendoes. Is a man not innocent until proven guilty?

Buffy: You *are* guilty. You got illicit smoochies, gonna have to pay the price.

I hope you mean plural when you say "You are guilty", Buffy. Since your own "illicit smoochies" led to multiple casualties and nearly destroyed the world, you're the last person to judge about someone else's supposed guiltiness.

[Halting Hex]

Now, now, Buffy's smoochies were completely licit.  She let everyone know that she and Angel were snogging every chance they got, leading to Xander being able to deduce the smooching even when she didn't specifically tell him, such as on the patrol in Bad Eggs.   And she gave Willow a heads-up about the impending "seizing" in Surprise.

Apocalyptically foolish?  Perhaps. But Bangel was anything but illicit, at least the first time around.  And while Buffy may have tried to hide the "tai chi sessions" she was having in S3 (or that Angel was even back), she did "pay the price" for them in Revelations, which may even be the point she's arguing here.

[lembergwatcher]

My point is Buffy should have said "Both of you are guilty" instead of just "You are guilty". Because otherwise I get the (wrong?) impression Buffy put the whole blame on Xander alone.

[Halting Hex]

But Xander feels that Oz is judging him, specifically.  Why should Buffy drag Willow into this when Xander himself isn't?

[lembergwatcher]

Since we touched on the subject of Xander seeking out Oz's companionship in 3.11 in another topic, I must repeat myself and say I find that sort of thing incredibly frustrating, depressing and irritating. It became absolutely clear that Oz was an ultimate winner, Xander lost Cordelia for good and his friendship with Willow won't be as close as before in two previous episodes. Why was that so necessary to humiliate my favorite character even more and turn him into such a pathetic caricature of his former self? Even though Xander was in desperate need of some male friend, dignity appeared to be much more important in his case. Why couldn't Xander seek out Oz's approval in the less obvious manner?  

God, how I wanted Xander to act cocky and seek confrontation with the Wolfboy when I saw the ep for the first time. And not because he wanted Willow to choose him, but, you know, on principle. Just to spoil Oz's victory. "I almost had it rough and tumble with your girlfriend, Oz. Go howl at the moon, you wretched doggy!" would have been music to my ears. 

Spoiler

Though every member of the Scoobies' Core Four went through character assassination in one way or another through the rest of the series, I think Xander's character assassination had a longest history, was the most gradual process and even sadistic to some extent.

[Joe Hellandback]

18 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

Since we touched on the subject of Xander seeking out Oz's companionship in 3.11 in another topic, I must repeat myself and say I find that sort of thing incredibly frustrating, depressing and irritating. It became absolutely clear that Oz was an ultimate winner, Xander lost Cordelia for good and his friendship with Willow won't be as close as before in two previous episodes. Why was that so necessary to humiliate my favorite character even more and turn him into such a pathetic caricature of his former self? Even though Xander was in desperate need of some male friend, dignity appeared to be much more important in his case. Why couldn't Xander seek out Oz's approval in the less obvious manner?  

God, how I wanted Xander to act cocky and seek confrontation with the Wolfboy when I saw the ep for the first time. And not because he wanted Willow to choose him, but, you know, on principle. Just to spoil Oz's victory. "I almost had it rough and tumble with your girlfriend, Oz. Go howl at the moon, you wretched doggy!" would have been music to my ears. 

  Hide contents

Though every member of the Scoobies' Core Four went through character assassination in one way or another through the rest of the series, I think Xander's character assassination had a longest history, was the most gradual process and even sadistic to some extent.

Xander is too good a man for that, he feels guilty over his affair and Oz is his friend. I was heartened to see them make up (and CC too in the end). 

[lembergwatcher]

1 hour ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Xander is too good a man for that, he feels guilty over his affair and Oz is his friend

I don't see how two guys can still be friends after showing interest in the same girl and can't Xander manifest his goodness in some other way?

Spoiler

Like telling Anya to go f*ck herself after she asked him to take her to the prom or started seducing Xander in his basement in The Harsh Light of Day or whatever.

[Halting Hex]

Watching Liam's vid for this, I was struck by some similarities between this episode and last season's eleventh offering, Ted:  

• In both cases, we are presented with seemingly dark and human menaces (abusive step-parents, mob violence) that Buffy is either helpless to fight, or where her actions only make things worse ("killing" Ted).  Then, the episodes arguably cop out by reverting to Hellmouthy explanations (Ted made a fat robot! It's a rabble-rousing demon!), undercutting what went before.  (Even though the fourth act of Ted is still wonderfully paced, and the fourth act here features some classic comedy, from "wake up in a coma" to "you at the back will be fish!".)

• In both cases, Angel is recovering from a traumatic episode 10 and only appears in one scene.  Where, in both cases, he and Buffy have a rather mature conversation about Buffy's existential crisis, instead of wallowing in relationship angst.  Good for them.

Okay, so Ted doesn't have the lesbian subtext on view here, whether it's Buffy doing a take when Angel says "dike" (even if she doesn't think he's specifically calling her out as a "dyke", she's thinking that the story about a weird incident with a waterfowl she thought she was telling is a lot kinkier than she imagined) or Joyce and Sheila Rosenberg doing the Romeo and Juliet "I forbid you to see her!" routine to keep Buffy and Willow apart.  And we don't need to spend the tag here doing exposition to explain the plot after-the-fact, the way that Ted did.

But still, Joyce's confusion in the S2 episode was more believable than Sheila simply having "selective amnesia" and there's nothing as sweet as the Giles/Jenny story there in this one.  So I go back and forth on which I like better. Especially as we get such great Willow goodness here:

"Do you see any goats around? No, because I sacrificed them!"  (She did remember to kosher-kill them, right?  Because otherwise, Ira's gonna be pissed…)

Oh, and Mr. Sanderson from the bank totally had it coming.  I mean, banker, bloodsucker, do the math…  (Granted, this was pre-crash, but still.)

[Joe Hellandback]

Did anyone else realise the little demon kid in this ep is actually Shawn Pyform? Bree's son Andrew from Desperate Housewives?

[Halting Hex]

Quote

JOYCE: I don't want you seeing that Willow any more.

Exsqueeeze me, Joyce…that???  As in a determiner "referring to a specific thing previously mentioned, known, or understood"? What, all of a sudden you can't discuss Willow as an individual?  She's just an object, needing to be designated separately from others of her kind?

Damn it, Joyce, you know Willow!  You sent Buffy to console her when news of Willow being devastated by finding the murdered kids was on TV in Prophecy Girl.  You held her in your arms when she was sobbing over news of Jenny's death in Passion.  How DARE you reduce her to a "that"!

(Okay, so Joyce probably spent that embrace plotting ways to get some hot Giles-loving now that the obstacle was gone, but still.  And yes, she completely forgot Willow's existence and left her stranded at the end of School Hard but everybody did that, grr…)

And yeah, yeah, mind control, but I can't believe that Andrew vande Kamp is writing Joyce's lines that precisely.  And even Sheila Rosenberg managed not to smear "Bunny Summers" with a dehumanizing "that".

Just goes to show, once a narcissist, always a narcissist.  Shove that up your MOO, Joyce.

Edited September 2, 2021 by Halting Hex

[Halting Hex]

So, apparently, Oz's SuperNose has gone on the fritz, is that it?  Three episodes ago, he could "smell Willow's fear" from across town; now, even though she's being burnt alive, he doesn't know his way to her quickly enough for he and Xander to get there in time.  Nice job, Wolfy.

Two possible explanations:

a) Oz hasn't fully forgiven Willow yet (groveling and Barry White aside) and so the SuperSniffer is kind of on strike.  Or,

b) Oz was always just kidding about that in Lovers Walk.  He simply decided that driving out to Breakers' Woods to retrieve Giles was a waste of time when Willow was in danger, decided to go check out the Factory (because it makes sense Spike would use his old hideout, as Buffy likewise almost instantly deduced), and just played along with Cordelia's "werewolf sense" delusions because he didn't want to argue with her.  (Remember, Oz didn't exactly think the world of CC back when the "wonderland tour" was dating Devon.   He might tolerate her in the group, but he's got little interest in debating her.)

On the plus side, I notice that Oz taps Xander on the chest when he realizes that Michael getting beaten by his dad might mean similar danger for Willow.  It's nice that despite their general awkwardness, Oz can realize that Xander would be first in line (and second, third, fourth…) for any "Rescue Willow!" posse WolfBoy is forming here.  Well done.
 

*************************

And back "That Harris boy is so polite!" territory, I noticed Xander yielding his chair when Buffy comes to the lunch table (and grabbing a fresh one for himself from the next table over.  He even does the same thing when Buffy comes into the Library during the intervention in Revelations.  (Although in that case, she chooses to remain standing.)

From what we've guessed of Xander's family, you wouldn't think that the Harrises would have spent much time instructing X on proper etiquette, but he's definitely learned a few precepts somewhere.  People do sometimes surprise you.  Huh.

[lembergwatcher]

On 1/11/2022 at 10:15 AM, Halting Hex said:

SuperSniffer is kind of on strike

Or it's just a common cold and the sniffer can't function properly... 

[Halting Hex]

I'm not really thrilled with the guys from Reverse Angle (they're too negative, IMO, and mostly just treat the series as something to hang jokes on*), but it's not as if they can't raise a good point, too.

When Buffy and Willow are complaining about their moms in the lunchroom (Joyce is being a busybody, but Sheila doesn't pay enough attention to Willow), the guys thought this was insensitive to talk about in front of Amy, since AFATK, Amy's mom is dead.  (And there was that unpleasant history with Catherine, before.). I'm thinking it might even be insensitive to discuss around Xander, whose mom can't even recognize his voice.

And when Snyder is raiding the Library, they wonder how come he didn't notice that giant cache of dangerous medieval weaponry?  Did Snyder just expect there to be crossbows and battleaxes in the book cage?  That seems unlikely.

*-not that the jokes aren't funny.  The series of suggestions for Schwarzenegger-esque puns that Jenny could make after hitting Angel with the janitor's cart (such as "I'm gonna sweep you up!") as the clip played repetitively had me barking, even though I knew it's barely 10 seconds before her death.  But still.

Edited January 18, 2022 by Halting Hex

[lembergwatcher]

17 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

When Buffy and Willow are complaining about their moms in the lunchroom (Joyce is being a busybody, but Sheila doesn't pay enough attention to Willow), the guys thought this was insensitive to talk about in front of Amy, since AFATK, Amy's mom is dead. 

I'm not sure Momma Madison is totally dead actually... If only Willow and Amy made an attempt to free Catherine's... I don't know... essence from that trophy...

As for insensitivity... I guess they have a point here. Although I doubt anything can be more insensitive than this:

Quote

Giles: (hesitates for an instant) Are you planning on seeing Angel?

Buffy: Yes. Actually, I am. (Giles averts his eyes) Look, but there's not gonna be any rash. (realizes how that sounds and gets a look from Giles) Anywhere. (defensively) Okay. We're, we're friends. That's all either of us wants. (looks at Giles seriously) Nothing's gonna happen.

-- Lovers Walk

It's like saying: "Yes, he killed Jenny and many other people. Yes, he tortured you for hours for pleasure, but you know what? I don't give a f@ck. I'm planning seeing him, deal with it".

I could've written a lot about how insensitive and selfish this is but I won't since I think Giles deserves such treatment (mainly for betraying Jenny's memory and allowing her killer continue his existence).

So yes, B/W are a little bit insensitive here even though this is a small-scale insensitivity, I'd say.

[Halting Hex]

1 hour ago, lembergwatcher said:

I'm not sure Momma Madison is totally dead actually...

Oh, we know she isn't.  We see the flickering eyes at the end of Witch, and Oz observes them at the start of Phases.  

But Buffy and Willow don't know that.  That's why I put "As Far As They Know", albeit in abbreviated form.  Sorry if I was unclear.

1 hour ago, lembergwatcher said:

Giles: (hesitates for an instant) Are you planning on seeing Angel?

Buffy: Yes. Actually, I am. (Giles averts his eyes)

I've always imagined the reason Giles has just one scene in Lovers Walk (in which he's "retreating" to Breaker's Woods, i.e. faaaaar away from Buffy) is that he's not fully ready to deal with the situation, and doesn't trust himself to maintain control.  Hence a certain amount of space.

And then in The Wish, we don't see Giles at all in the regular timeline, bar his gesturing to the Three Musketeers at the end.  Perhaps he was still being withdrawn.

And even in Amends, Giles's feelings about Angel and B/A are strong enough that Xander comments on them at the start of Act 1.  Was it only Xander who needed the "Hanukkah Spirit"?  Possibly not.

As the timeline I worked out in another thread placed Revelations at the start of November, this is almost two months where things may have been fairly icy between Buffy and Giles.  The price one pays for Foreheads, apparently.

Edited January 18, 2022 by Halting Hex

[lembergwatcher]

17 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

As the timeline I worked out in another thread placed Revelations at the start of November, this is almost two months where things may have been fairly icy between Buffy and Giles.  The price one pays for Foreheads, apparently.

Good point, but...

We got Angel who killed more people in just six months than notorious John Wayne Gacy in six years. One of the reasons Angel's rampage turned out to be so deadly was because Buffy apparently forgot her job description and (mostly) sat on her ass because... how could she even think about killing the "love of her life"? 

Then we got Angel who'd brutally murdered the only woman Giles truly loved and then, to add insult to injury, tortured Watcher "for hours for pleasure". Then the aforementioned Angel came back from wherever he'd been and Buffy was all "He's good now, so don't you dare hurting him! And, btw, I'm planning on seeing him again, so suck it up, Britface!" 

And the only (!) response from Giles was... what? Running away and then shooting Buffy icy glares for two months and that's it? I mean, he started killing Angel's kind probably long before Hank and Joyce conceived Buffy... Giles spent two decades fighting the things that go bumb in the night and yet he failed to avenge Jenny and other innocent people... Since Buffy proved to be unable/unwilling to do the right thing it was Rupert's job to make sure justice was served. Did Angel take out his balls during the torture session?

That's the way I see it... 

Edited January 19, 2022 by lembergwatcher

[Halting Hex]

To be fair, Giles can't sacrifice his relationship with Buffy just because he's carrying a grudge against Forehead.  As Buffy said to Jenny once, "Sacred Duty, yada-yada-yada."

He may be infuriated and want to quit, but at the end of the day, he realizes that the work is more important.  (And it's not as if he's lost all affection for Buffy.) So he withdraws, rather than seeking bloody revenge.  It's a hard choice, but experience has taught him necessity, no doubt.

[lembergwatcher]

20 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Sacred Duty

Maybe I'm wrong here, but isn't Giles' duty to fight the forces of darkness, protect mankind and help his Slayer, not satisfy her every whim? 

It can be either a hard choice or just incompetence. It's like: yeah, Angel has killed Jenny and Joss knows how many others but since Buffy likes him, screw everything else. I admit I'm kinda biased but the way I see it Buffy's precious feelings for Angel do not have to be Giles' main concern.

[Halting Hex]

Well, not her feelings, but maintaining a functional relationship.  As much as saying "sod you, you tart!  I'm going to dust that git and you can bugger off if you don't like it!"* might be emotionally satisfying, it does pretty much punt any chance that Giles has of getting Buffy to follow his instructions in the future.  Which, considering that this gig is rather important, is a consideration worth considering, IMO.

It's not as if he wants to tell the Council he's chucking it all and becoming a grocer, no matter how belatedly.  This is his life's work, not to mention a family legacy.  So a few months of glaring is as harsh as he can be on Buffy.  Understanbly, IMO.

Spoiler

Of course, the fact that Giles's inescapable devotion to Buffy gets his tweedy ass canned in the very next episode is rather hilarious, I'll admit.  But I understand that Giles can't see the future.

*-yes, I'm giving Giles rather Spike-ian dialogue, here.  But Band Candy says that's who he is, deep down…and who am I to doubt Jane Espenson?