When did Glee begin to decline?

[Joe Hellandback]

Please avoid any leaping over fish/atomic propelled kitchen appliances metaphors. 

For me I think after season 3, the series had run its' course, they'd had their big win and the relationships had bounced back and forth so much they bordered on the farcical and there was a limit on even Sue's entertaining madness before it became banal. None of the replacement characters introduced afterwards ever worked with the exception of Kitty (and her arguably only because they needed an antagonist with sex appeal and with the Unholy Trinity gone the series needed that). I understand why they kept going, the pressure from fans was immense and it would have caused outrage but it was the right thing to do.

 The only way I can think of it working was to have split the shows, have the original cast get together in NY or LA or somewhere so we still got their interaction and give the new characters more of a chance to breathe and blossom back in Lima.  

[dmmetler]

I think it should have ended with the originals graduating. 

[Vanessa1214]

Agreed. I like to pretend the season 3 finale is the series finale. It ends so neatly with Rachel settling in New York. It leaves a lot of other characters up in the air, but I feel it was always Rachel's show from the beginning, so I like her being the focus at the end. 

There are a couple highlights in season 4 and beyond, but not much. I did like Emma's rendition of Getting Married Today.

[itsjustme]

On 6/2/2018 at 9:04 PM, Vanessa1214 said:

Agreed. I like to pretend the season 3 finale is the series finale. It ends so neatly with Rachel settling in New York. It leaves a lot of other characters up in the air, but I feel it was always Rachel's show from the beginning, so I like her being the focus at the end. 

There are a couple highlights in season 4 and beyond, but not much. I did like Emma's rendition of Getting Married Today.

I agree in part  the few kids up in the air could have been resolved if they wanted to finish it there.  Kurt could have gotten into some other school Finn had the army, etc.   So Rachel's walk ala That girl through New York would have worked as a good ending.

Other wise the horrible decision to just interject the a new unpopular girl into Rachel's spot, the new bad boy into Puck's spot , the  new Football player into Finn's spot etc was one of their biggest down falls imo.   If they really wanted to carry on with new kids they should have graduated a few old kids each season and brought in new kids. 

And if the wanted to keep a split and follow them to NY too they should have had Rachel and Kurt going on every horrible audition and job they could. Also there was a  need to build up a few supporting characters in NY.  And the other grads should have visited there instead.

 

The other major downfall to me was the over-dependence on shipping.

Edited June 5, 2018 by itsjustme

[Joe Hellandback]

13 hours ago, itsjustme said:

I agree in part  the few kids up in the air could have been resolved if they wanted to finish it there.  Kurt could have gotten into some other school Finn had the army, etc.   So Rachel's walk ala That girl through New York would have worked as a good ending.

Other wise the horrible decision to just interject the a new unpopular girl into Rachel's spot, the new bad boy into Puck's spot , the  new Football player into Finn's spot etc was one of their biggest down falls imo.   If they really wanted to carry on with new kids they should have graduated a few old kids each season and brought in new kids. 

And if the wanted to keep a split and follow them to NY too they should have had Rachel and Kurt going on every horrible audition and job they could. Also there was a  need to build up a few supporting characters in NY.  And the other grads should have visited there instead.

 

The other major downfall to me was the over-dependence on shipping.

I actually really liked Marley, she didn't actually cause enough consternation to be entertaining but you're right about the rest, they were pale (and very obvious) imitations except for Kitty who was a very entertaining mix of Santana and Quinn with her own unique spin. Having the old gang live together in NY would have been entertaining. As for shipping, well, wasn't it the point of the show?

[itsjustme]

On 6/5/2018 at 11:54 AM, Joe Hellandback said:

I actually really liked Marley, she didn't actually cause enough consternation to be entertaining but you're right about the rest, they were pale (and very obvious) imitations except for Kitty who was a very entertaining mix of Santana and Quinn with her own unique spin. Having the old gang live together in NY would have been entertaining. As for shipping, well, wasn't it the point of the show?

Sure she was nice but boring who wants to watch that. meh.  Kitty was the only one to bring any spark to her character.  

And I do not think shipping was the point of the show.  It is one thing to have some focus on couples but this show started pandering to it.

Edited June 8, 2018 by itsjustme

[Joe Hellandback]

9 hours ago, itsjustme said:

Sure she was nice but boring who want to watch that. meh.  Kitty was the only one to bring any spark to her character.  

And I do not think shipping was the point of the show.  It is one think to have some focus on couples but this show started pandering to it.

Agreed, rewatching the third season now and I'm beginning to think it was when they introduced Rory who I CANNOT STAND! Other characters like Sugar, Lauren, Weird Hair Christian etc were likeable enough but Rory makes my skin crawl (and I AM Irish!)

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎06‎/‎06‎/‎2018 at 7:23 AM, itsjustme said:

Sure she was nice but boring who wants to watch that. meh.  Kitty was the only one to bring any spark to her character.  

And I do not think shipping was the point of the show.  It is one thing to have some focus on couples but this show started pandering to it.

You think of Joss Whedon's comments about a show giving the fans what they need rather than what they want?

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎03‎/‎06‎/‎2018 at 3:04 AM, Vanessa1214 said:

Agreed. I like to pretend the season 3 finale is the series finale. It ends so neatly with Rachel settling in New York. It leaves a lot of other characters up in the air, but I feel it was always Rachel's show from the beginning, so I like her being the focus at the end. 

There are a couple highlights in season 4 and beyond, but not much. I did like Emma's rendition of Getting Married Today.

Watched that ep last night and you're so right, Rachel arriving on Broadway would have been the perfect ending. 

[Casual Viewing]

I too wish they'd ended it at season 3 final episode. Season 4 was such a mess that I pretty well stopped watching until season 6.  I did like their version of "the scientist" but aside from that I've erased what little I saw of season 4 & 5 from my brain. 

Season 3 made me angry in a lot of episodes but the last three episodes redeemed it for me. 

[wingster55]

For me...season 1 episode 14. It really pissed me off that they brushed off the legitimate pain Will and Finn experienced  from Terri and Quinn's betrayals as though they were nothing. Even going so far as to make fun of both for it. 

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎10‎/‎06‎/‎2018 at 9:18 PM, Casual Viewing said:

I too wish they'd ended it at season 3 final episode. Season 4 was such a mess that I pretty well stopped watching until season 6.  I did like their version of "the scientist" but aside from that I've erased what little I saw of season 4 & 5 from my brain. 

Season 3 made me angry in a lot of episodes but the last three episodes redeemed it for me. 

I actually can't remember most of 4&5 which probably says more about them. 

 

10 hours ago, wingster55 said:

For me...season 1 episode 14. It really pissed me off that they brushed off the legitimate pain Will and Finn experienced  from Terri and Quinn's betrayals as though they were nothing. Even going so far as to make fun of both for it. 

Honestly I think Will was drifting away from Terri and towards Emma already so I could believe that. Equally it was probably more a relief for Finn?

[wingster55]

On 6/12/2018 at 5:07 AM, Joe Hellandback said:

Honestly I think Will was drifting away from Terri and towards Emma already so I could believe that. Equally it was probably more a relief for Finn?

While this is true, I think both (especially Will) were in love with the unborn child they thought was theirs/existed, so I don't buy that it would be easy to get over as quickly as they did. 

[Joe Hellandback]

5 hours ago, wingster55 said:

While this is true, I think both (especially Will) were in love with the unborn child they thought was theirs/existed, so I don't buy that it would be easy to get over as quickly as they did. 

True, the should have expressed a little more pain, preferably in song.

[Joe Hellandback]

Rewatching I'd actually go further, I think Kitty was the only successful character introduced after season 2! (specifically Blaine and Coach Bieste)

[LydiaMoon1]

TBH, it started going downhill after season 1 when the show switched focus from primarily the staff to primarily the students.  Season 1 was the Glee that was a monster hit, and Season 2 was when the audience erosion first began. Now, that's not to say that I didn't enjoy the student-centered show that began in season 2, but it was never quite the show that I first fell in love with in season 1.

[tschandler71]

When they couldn't figure out how to properly write out the graduating kids - a problem with all high school shows eventually.

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎18‎/‎06‎/‎2018 at 3:40 PM, LydiaMoon1 said:

TBH, it started going downhill after season 1 when the show switched focus from primarily the staff to primarily the students.  Season 1 was the Glee that was a monster hit, and Season 2 was when the audience erosion first began. Now, that's not to say that I didn't enjoy the student-centered show that began in season 2, but it was never quite the show that I first fell in love with in season 1.

Do you really think season 1 was about the teachers? I never got that impression?

12 hours ago, tschandler71 said:

When they couldn't figure out how to properly write out the graduating kids - a problem with all high school shows eventually.

Some handle it better than others, Buffy is probably the best example, SBTB the worst. 

[MrsR]

I saw Will as the protagonist and Sue as the antagonist. The kids were just show fodder for me. And that's how they should have been treated. They way they twisted the plots around to keep them around and give them stories after graduation was sometimes excrutiating.

[itsjustme]

22 hours ago, MrsR said:

I saw Will as the protagonist and Sue as the antagonist. The kids were just show fodder for me. And that's how they should have been treated. They way they twisted the plots around to keep them around and give them stories after graduation was sometimes excrutiating.

I think Will, Rachel, and Finn were all protagonist and at different levels, Sue. (OTT everyone antagonist) Quinn and Puck were supposed to be their antagonist that first season. Other lessor antagonists were incorporated via Sandy Reyerson, Coach Tanaka and guest like Neil Patrick Harris.  The leads were clearly marked in the pilot.  Will represented the adults, Rachel the outcast and Finn the popular kids.  I think they needed that balance of the 3 leads but did switch more towards Rachel and Finn in season 2/3 and Rachel after Finn passed away and the new kid did not take hold.  Will did have a bit of a surge in season 6. 

[shumalek]

The show cared too much about pleasing its die-hard fanbase. This was one of the first shows to experience the wrath of the Tumblr fandoms, where people really go in with their love for whatever it is they discuss. And the fans constantly argued for non-canon ships like Rachel/Quinn, Santana/Quinn, as well as getting attached to couples that were never going to last (like Kurt/Adam). The writers constantly gave us all these moments to please the online fandom, thinking this made up a huge portion of the viewing audience. I mean, just look at the scene of Quinn talking to Rachel in 'On My Way'. She was practically professing her love for her, which was completely left field for the canon storyline. So whilst season 3 is my personal favourite, it's also the season where the fan-service began, and thus the viewing audience felt alienated as things didn't make much sense.

I also think the show lost itself after season 3 because we were made to care for so many people and then suddenly they decided to go back to season 1 and make it about Finn, Rachel, Will and (in addition) Kurt and Blaine, as well as a bunch of new kids nobody saw much in except being replicas of the original cast. By season four we were all wondering what happened to the likes of Quinn, Santana, Mercedes, Puck etc., and slowly became disinterested because we knew they were no longer regulars on the show. It stopped being about what we loved and started being about newer versions of what we loved, which is not a good decision at all.

As said previously here, the show should've made a separate show for the originals so that we didn't have a bitterness towards their replacements as we still got our fix of what we loved. Or, if that didn't work, end it after season 4. I say end it after season 4 because I know to this day I would be extremely upset wondering how good Glee would've been if it continued beyond 3 seasons. It was the greatest show to me for those 3 seasons, rarely letting me down. And with a season 4 I would've gotten the confirmation that it wouldn't have been possible to have it be as good again, and thus act as some form of closure.

[Anna Yolei]

On ‎6‎/‎2‎/‎2018 at 6:42 PM, dmmetler said:

I think it should have ended with the originals graduating. 

It really should have, but word on the street was Ryan's bloated ego got in the way and the split narrative was his passive-aggressive way of getting the Glee NYC spin-off that Fox shot down.

 

On ‎6‎/‎5‎/‎2018 at 11:23 PM, itsjustme said:

Sure she was nice but boring who wants to watch that. meh.

Marley was easily my least favorite of the New Class(tm)for exactly this reason. Nice doesn't have to be boring because I never got tired of Mercedes or Tina 1.0, but the poor girl was such a sad sack all the damn time that even Eeyore would tell her to cheer up.

I was so happy that of all the actors on the show, she was the one who got the big break and became a household name, because Melissa Benoit pulled the very shortest straw being on Glee.

On ‎9‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 5:50 PM, shumalek said:

The show cared too much about pleasing its die-hard fanbase. This was one of the first shows to experience the wrath of the Tumblr fandoms, where people really go in with their love for whatever it is they discuss. And the fans constantly argued for non-canon ships like Rachel/Quinn, Santana/Quinn, as well as getting attached to couples that were never going to last (like Kurt/Adam).

Tumblr is...a unique place. As I type this, the site is going through a lot of turmoil--You probably heard about it in the news (and even typing the scandal might get my work computer flagged), but they've now gone to being "SFW" as a result. Much of it is a CYA measure because all the crap is still there and was only even address when Apple removed the app from the story, but rumor has it that all the false complaints about "bad" ships helped to tip the needle into banning NSFW stuff entirely. I have a lot to say on that, but that's a whole other post entirely. suffice it to say I'm glad fandom is finally migrating away from that place.

But re Glee specifically, I think that's just teens entirely that get so passionate about this kind of thing: I remember my own bitter disappointment with the way Enterprise turned out, and the ship I supported.  I can't even blame it all on kids, because I've seen this crap get perpetuated far more by people who are old enough to know better know better and like to stir up the younger userbase. but I feel sorriest for the kids who get swept up in it because "everyone else is doing it." sigh....