S01.E04: Between A Rock And Harlin's Place

[Tara Ariano]

Quote

Grace designs a room for Will's boss, Harlin, which Will dislikes. Jack begins his singing career with his first show of Just Jack.

[Primetimer]

This time, Will's controlling which clients Grace takes on and how she designs their spaces. Is Will going to relax soon?

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[sinkwriter]

What Kevin talks about in this podcast, about how the standard for behavior has changed since this show first aired, is one of the very things that first gave me pause when I first heard the news that this show was going to be revisited.

I love this show, I watched it during its original run, I adored Will & Grace's friendship, I loved Jack and Karen and everything else... but I wondered if it would be complicated to bring back this show when behaviors have changed and this show made a lot of jokes based on characters snarking viciously to one another. Especially jokes in which they stereotype gay people, which... I don't know, I just worried that if they didn't find a way to modernize the program and change some of that approach, it might stir up old viciousness, stereotypes and cruelty that people have worked so hard to combat since the late 80's / early 90's.

I'm not gay, so it's probably not my place to say whether or not certain jokes from the original show (or the current version of the show) are in bad taste, but I definitely wondered and worried and am curious to hear other people's perspective about it.

[SparklesBitch]

On 12/1/2017 at 7:00 PM, sinkwriter said:

Especially jokes in which they stereotype gay people, which... I don't know, I just worried that if they didn't find a way to modernize the program and change some of that approach, it might stir up old viciousness, stereotypes and cruelty that people have worked so hard to combat since the late 80's / early 90's.

I'm not gay, so it's probably not my place to say whether or not certain jokes from the original show (or the current version of the show) are in bad taste, but I definitely wondered and worried and am curious to hear other people's perspective about it.

Interesting topic! I’m a member of the rainbow-wrapped contingent, so I’ll toss in my two cents on this. 

For me personally, the gay jokes and stereotypes on Will and Grace have never bothered me for two reasons. 

First, let’s be honest, stereotypes wouldn’t exist if there wasn’t at least a smidgen of truth to be found in them. Some of the stereotypes (exaggerated though they may be at times) at accurate, at least for my group of friends. It’s funny and relatable to be able to see that reflected on screen. 

Second, I think that it depends where the humor is coming from. It’s been clear from the beginning of this show that the people in charge of making it (as well as the actors themselves) are allies to the LGBT community, and for me, that makes all the difference. I see the humor in this show that pokes fun at my community as affectionate teasing, not cruel punching down. 

Of course, I’m not trying to speak for the LGBT community as a whole, obviously. Someone else might have a completely different POV. Also, I might feel differently if I were a gay man instead of a lesbian. I don’t know. This is just the way I see it. 

[sinkwriter]

Thanks for your perspective, SparklesBitch! (And heeeeee... your username is pretty marvelous.)

I loved and laughed at most of the jokes from the original series, and as a woman with a gay best friend, I certainly had a lot to relate to about the series. It's a fond special show for the two of us. Though we used to joke that I'm probably more like Will than Grace, in personality. I'm the more reserved one, while my friend is a mix of Grace and Jack and Karen, LOL.

But when I heard they were going to revisit the show, I think my mind immediately went to all the times that Karen would call Will "Mary" or "Wilma," or call Jack a fairy, and I found myself wincing and wondering if the "woke" younger generation would find that offensive and wonder why we'd liked such a show. There are a lot of years in between since it first aired, and I wondered if they'd have to adjust and tone down and change how the characters spoke to one another. 

So far I think they've managed pretty well. And as you note about the people in charge, they have done a lovely job showing how much these characters care about one another and are dear friends - I still love those early episodes when they went to Karen's cabin (so that they could take Will's mind off his anniversary with Michael), or when they all came together to help Jack tell his mom that he was gay. I don't know what they have planned for these characters in the new series, but I hope that part always comes through, how they'll be there for one another and drive one another crazy (but underneath it all, they'll have great affection for even the "you drive me crazy" behaviors).

[sinkwriter]

I think Kevin says it best in this week's Christmas episode podcast commentary: "[For the 2017 revival series] You can't just do what you did 20 years ago and expect it to work." Not in the same way. Some things still work, other things just cannot.

And when it comes down to it, that's what I was afraid of - that the showrunners might be a bit out of touch with the current climate, if they try to make the series exactly the same way as it was before. It's a different time.

Edited December 9, 2017 by sinkwriter

[legaleagle53]

12 hours ago, sinkwriter said:

I think Kevin says it best in this week's Christmas episode podcast commentary: "[For the 2017 revival series] You can't just do what you did 20 years ago and expect it to work." Not in the same way. Some things still work, other things just cannot.

And when it comes down to it, that's what I was afraid of - that the showrunners might be a bit out of touch with the current climate, if they try to make the series exactly the same way as it was before. It's a different time.

Which is why retconning the finale and most of Season 8 out of existence in an attempt to get the show back to what it originally was in 1997 really was a mistake, in my view.  We've evolved as a culture and as a viewership over the past 20 years.  The show and the characters should have been allowed to evolve naturally as well -- and that means dealing realistically with the inevitable changes that took place in the characters' lives by accepting them and building on them instead of simply insisting that they never happened.

Edited December 9, 2017 by legaleagle53

[Gothish520]

On 12/9/2017 at 1:34 PM, legaleagle53 said:

Which is why retconning the finale and most of Season 8 out of existence in an attempt to get the show back to what it originally was in 1997 really was a mistake, in my view.  We've evolved as a culture and as a viewership over the past 20 years.  The show and the characters should have been allowed to evolve naturally as well -- and that means dealing realistically with the inevitable changes that took place in the characters' lives by accepting them and building on them instead of simply insisting that they never happened.

I think it was genius to discard that awful finale. It gave me back one of my favorite shows. 

As for the subject of character growth, I've made this point before - how much growth do people really NEED to do once they have become adults, established in their livelihood, settled into a home, etc? My personality has not changed so drastically in the past 15-20 years. I am who I am. If one has some obvious flaws, yes it's great if they continue to mature - and I think some of them have, especially Jack. His edges have been softened, and he is not near as snarky as he used to be, while retaining his wit (and Sean Hayes' perfect comic timing). Will and Karen have been delightfully consistent and had some great moments, especially Will's dressing down of that young stud about the history of gay America. Karen's emotional turn when Rosario died was tear-inducing. 

Grace has been harder to pin down. One could make the argument that Debra Messing's subdued performance is an attempt at showing a maturation of her character. Time will tell if Debra manages to recapture some of Grace's old spark on a more consistent basis. Regardless, I'm enjoying this ride immensely. 

Edited December 15, 2017 by Gothish520