Anothermi May 9, 2014 Share May 9, 2014 The One Where A Good Thing Happened. More Than Once. Craster's Keep burns to the ground Jojen, Meera, Hodor and Summer all spared, along with Bran Brandon at least lays eyes on Jon Jon and Ghost are reunited Locke bites it Poor Man's Willem Dafoe bites it We learn who killed Jon Arryn Brienne sees something in Podrick Cersei gets off a great line about what the world does to little girls Dany's adventures have some realistic consequences Then again, Littlefinger! Lysa! Littlefinger and Lysa! And Robin! As snowblack noted: Cersei is working the jury, and seems truly dangerous Edited, because Jon is Snow and Ghost is Ghost. Loved this. Late to view the episode, but you caught everything I did. Great summary! Apparently Littlefinger does actually have sex, what an entirely horrible thought. *Shudder* I was able to delete that fact until you mentioned it. Ugh. Oh, and we need a thread for favorite quotes. "Everywhere in the world they hurt little girls." So classic. So Cersei. I loved it. Snowblack: Yes! Totally support this. I noted that quote as well. Make it so! Then again, about half the time I sit around waiting for Dany to completely lose her mind, as I think the "Dragons" might be particularly prone to in the Targ line. - Shimpy Hmmm. All the Targaryen Kings I remember hearing about - from Joffrey in one case and Tywin in another - were all faux-dragons. Targ Kings who believed they were Dragons right up until they died trying to prove it. Even Viserys thought he was a Dragon and he was pretty damn crazy. Based on this, albeit limited, history; I'm of the opinion that the authentic "Dragon" Targs are likely to be the sane ones. And on a completely tangential note - because I am so late to discussing this episode... *small voice* I kinda felt bad when Locke was offed so quickly. Of all the bad guys, he was one I actually "liked". He was competent - maybe even good - at his job. He could act deceptively (when needed - see Night's Watch). He had logical reasons for his actions (even if, with Jaime, it was based on class hatred, or just plain smart-alec-hating). Heck! I'd even suggest he was "honourable" within the context that he functioned. He did what he was told and didn't (comparatively) seem to be a sadist. (Jaime's hand amputation excepted, but there were exacerbating factors there) ;-) Hmmff. I would like to have had a bit more story line on him. Or maybe it's just that I felt able to relax a wee bit when Locke was part of the narrative because I didn't believe he'd be going off on some gory tangent, he'd just do what he was sent to do. */small voice* 2 Link to comment
DemosthenesKey May 9, 2014 Share May 9, 2014 As you might be able to tell from my username, I'm a fan of Locke as well, albeit I suspect a rather different sort than the one you're talking about ;) No, I agree - his death seemed odd and rushed, and I would've disliked it if Bran hadn't done something interesting again (always a rare moment for him) and suddenly Hodored. Link to comment
abcfsk May 9, 2014 Share May 9, 2014 I think last episode finally gave us a new development in Dany's storyline with the whole politics involved in sacking towns and making them work not being as simple as screaming and burning, so I'll say give it a bit more time because maybe this will turn into a mini GoT on its own with her dealing with all the shit power brings. At least when she got that message this episode I thought 'yes, reality check' for our dragon mom. 2 Link to comment
stillshimpy May 9, 2014 Share May 9, 2014 (edited) Anotherimi: Based on this, albeit limited, history; I'm of the opinion that the authentic "Dragon" Targs are likely to be the sane ones. Oh see, I've assumed that Aerys was an actual fireproof-dragon-type and that Rhaegar was too. For Aerys it's because anyone who was that fond of burning people alive, seems unlikely to be vulnerable to that as a weapon against him. Same thing with having wildfire, a weapon that difficult to control and so fully destructive only makes sense on land (where fire takes on a mind of its own, at least seemingly) when deployed by someone it cannot harm. Plus, Dany pretty much said as much when Viserys burned, "Fire cannot harm....a Dragon." She'd also copped to the fact that she knew Viserys wasn't a "Dragon" long before that. So I think that whereas winged, flying Dragons hadn't been around in however long, that when the Targs talked about those in their line who were "Dragons" they were referring to an invulnerability to fire. Edited May 9, 2014 by stillshimpy Link to comment
Pallas May 9, 2014 Share May 9, 2014 All the Targaryen Kings I remember hearing about - from Joffrey in one case and Tywin in another - were all faux-dragons. Targ Kings who believed they were Dragons right up until they died trying to prove it. Even Viserys thought he was a Dragon and he was pretty damn crazy. Based on this, albeit limited, history; I'm of the opinion that the authentic "Dragon" Targs are likely to be the sane ones. What a great spec, Anothermi! I'm trying to tote up what evidence we have for what makes a Dragon (human division). This is what I recall: Vicerys was the first to use the phrase, in his first scene with Dany ("You don't want to rouse The Dragon, do you?"). At the time and for some time after, I took it only to mean that the Targaryns, anyway, referred to their monarchs as Dragons. In the same way that Robb became The Young Wolf. Vicerys never remarked on any other special properties, and we twice saw that he himself wasn't immune to heat or fire: when he was burned by the candle wax during his own sexposition about the dragons (animal division), and when he died. And disordered and megalomaniacal though he was, he didn't seem fussed by having been proved susceptible when burned, in the first instance, and was quick to spot and protest the danger when threatened with molten gold. The other person who went on at all about the Targ monarch Dragons was Jaime, in the bath (heh) with Brienne. Jaime said that mad Aerys believed that even after being slain, he would come back to life as a dragon (animal division). Jaime said he took care of that possibility, but as I recall, didn't go into any detail. From what we've seen about resurrection myths on this world, I'm thinking Jaime beheaded the warm corpse. (A point no one had spelled out before, but one that adds some context to Ned's disgust -- projected by Jaime in part, or not -- when Ned came upon dead Aerys and the young Kingdslayer in the Throne Room.) Is Dany even aware of this resurrection myth/potential? As far as we know, all her knowledge of Westerosi/Targaren/Dragon/dragon history was spoon-fed her by Vicerys, the ultimate self-serving narrator. And, has Dany already been resurrected once -- from the flames of the bier, which hatched the dragon's eggs? Did she in fact die as a human and then come back, rather than simply resist the flames? If so, did she "lose" something in the process? 1 Link to comment
DirewolfPup May 9, 2014 Share May 9, 2014 Season 4 finale. Last scene: Dany starts laying dragon eggs like crazy... Credits 4 Link to comment
Anothermi May 10, 2014 Share May 10, 2014 What a great spec, Anothermi! I'm trying to tote up what evidence we have for what makes a Dragon (human division). This is what I recall: Vicerys was the first to use the phrase, in his first scene with Dany ("You don't want to rouse The Dragon, do you?"). At the time and for some time after, I took it only to mean that the Targaryns, anyway, referred to their monarchs as Dragons. In the same way that Robb became The Young Wolf. Vicerys never remarked on any other special properties, and we twice saw that he himself wasn't immune to heat or fire: when he was burned by the candle wax during his own sexposition about the dragons (animal division), and when he died. And disordered and megalomaniacal though he was, he didn't seem fussed by having been proved susceptible when burned, in the first instance, and was quick to spot and protest the danger when threatened with molten gold. The other person who went on at all about the Targ monarch Dragons was Jaime, in the bath (heh) with Brienne. Jaime said that mad Aerys believed that even after being slain, he would come back to life as a dragon (animal division). Jaime said he took care of that possibility, but as I recall, didn't go into any detail. From what we've seen about resurrection myths on this world, I'm thinking Jaime beheaded the warm corpse. (A point no one had spelled out before, but one that adds some context to Ned's disgust -- projected by Jaime in part, or not -- when Ned came upon dead Aerys and the young Kingdslayer in the Throne Room.) Is Dany even aware of this resurrection myth/potential? As far as we know, all her knowledge of Westerosi/Targaren/Dragon/dragon history was spoon-fed her by Vicerys, the ultimate self-serving narrator. And, has Dany already been resurrected once -- from the flames of the bier, which hatched the dragon's eggs? Did she in fact die as a human and then come back, rather than simply resist the flames? If so, did she "lose" something in the process? Pallas, Thanks for reminding me about what Jaime said about Aerys in the bath scene. I checked White Stumbler's post containing the transcript of that speech and Jaime said he cut Aerys throat for good measure - just as insurance against the possibility of him becoming a dragon (animal division). I'm paraphrasing. I, too, assumed that what Viserys meant by the phrase "Dragon" was just 'monarch'. Once we twigged to the fact that Dany was fireproof I changed my thinking about it. I think Selmy and Jorah have both referred to Rhaegar as a true Dragon, so they make some kind of a distinction - but I don't know what makes a Targ a "Dragon" in their view. I had always thought that Aerys was fireproof due to being Targaryen and loving to burn people, but his fireproof-ness has never been stated definitively. It is more than possible that non-fireproof Targs could be obsessed with fire. I remember, vaguely, Joffrey regaling Marg with the crazy antics of some of the Targ kings during their tour of the ... Sept? The ones he spoke about seemed to have killed themselves in ridiculous ways related to trying to become a "real dragon" (animal division). But it was Tywin's recent recounting of the failings of the recently mentioned Targ kings (from Baelor to whomever else) that caused me to think about how many Targ kings laboured under the delusion that they were Dragons and that they would turn into "real dragons" when they died. It just seemed to me that Aerys fit in with that crowd rather than Dany or Rhaegar (who at least had a few people vouch for him as compared to Aerys, who appeared to be universally hated). Dany is the only true "Dragon" we've seen, and the craziest we've seen her was in S02 with her constant shouting about her dragons. I don't think we've been given any indication by the show that Dany has heard about the resurrection myth. Somebody - Jorah? - gave her books about the history of Westeros (her history) but, again, I haven't seen any indication that she has even cracked one open. 2 Link to comment
Pallas May 11, 2014 Share May 11, 2014 So I wonder where (some of) the Targareyn kings got the idea that they would be resurrected with wings and scales? A myth brought with them from Valeria? A myth based in truth -- and in some way, connected to the decline of the dragons in Westeros? When Targ kings stopped turning into dragons after death, perhaps Westerosi dragons stopped turning into dragons during life? A myth born in the days of magic, magic which died out -- taking the dragons with them. And a few kings, grotesquely, along the way. Something else I had forgotten: we see comatose Bran, the sleeping warg, open his eyes the moment after Ned kills Lady. Are his visions hers? Or rather, is her spirit the conduit? And all right, a mad-King--level spitball: what if Dany's dragons are resurrected Targareyns? 1 Link to comment
gingerella May 11, 2014 Share May 11, 2014 So I wonder where (some of) the Targareyn kings got the idea that they would be resurrected with wings and scales? A myth brought with them from Valeria? A myth based in truth -- and in some way, connected to the decline of the dragons in Westeros? When Targ kings stopped turning into dragons after death, perhaps Westerosi dragons stopped turning into dragons during life? A myth born in the days of magic, magic which died out -- taking the dragons with them. And a few kings, grotesquely, along the way. Something else I had forgotten: we see comatose Bran, the sleeping warg, open his eyes the moment after Ned kills Lady. Are his visions hers? Or rather, is her spirit the conduit? And all right, a mad-King--level spitball: what if Dany's dragons are resurrected Targareyns? Well, if they're mad Targ's then Dany's gonna be knee deep in a very frightening shitshow shortly... 2 Link to comment
Pallas May 11, 2014 Share May 11, 2014 Hee! Dany and her three mad Kings with wings. That might liven up the story in the East... Link to comment
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