S07.E07: The Dragon And The Wolf

[MarySNJ]

On 11/25/2017 at 1:11 PM, JennyFF said:

I always felt like Arya didn't want to be a lady in the way that Sansa wanted to be a lady, and definitely didn't want to be married off to a convenient suitor who would expect her to be like Sansa.  That doesn't mean she wouldn't want to be in a relationship or married to someone who she fancies and who respects her for who she is, and most importantly isn't up himself like Joffrey was.  It's also worth remembering she was pre-puberty then, so like many young girls, the benefits of boys hadn't presented themselves yet.   If either of the Stark girls were to marry Gendry, assuming they both survive, it would be Arya.  He wouldn't expect her to be all ladylike, and he isn't up himself.   If Gendry survives, he's bound to be made a Baratheon by whoever does end up King/Queen.

I'm a bit sad to see the end of Littlefinger, but it was his time.  He'd overplayed his hand, and with Bran able to fact-check everything he says, his former strength at manipulation was his inevitable down-fall.  I do think that the Stark sisters were genuinely bickering at first, but they knew deep down that they needed to be allies, and as many have said, Sansa knew Arya didn't want to become the Lady of Winterfell.  They'll have come to this realisation after the last showdown we saw, and sorted it out between themselves.  Just because we don't see it doesn't mean it didn't happen.  I know some people feel it's cheating not to show us that resolution, but it was apparent in the confrontation with Littlefinger, so showing it in advance would only have ruined the tension of that scene.  Personally, I was fairly confident that Sansa was putting on a show as the scene opened, but I liked that I wasn't 100% sure.

The Dragonpit scene and the exchanges in the run-up to it were immense.  It felt like glorious payback for years of investing in this large group of characters.  I'm another fan of Qyborn's excitement at seeing the dragons, then intrigue at the zombie hand.  I hope he's going to start scheming on ways to destroy the undead.  He may abandon Cersei, because let's face it, he's only hanging around with her because it gives him access to fun things, and there are more fun things further north.

I enjoyed Jon's exasperated geography teacher impersonation in response to Cersei saying she thinks the whole thing is a joke.  It's like he's trying to convince a bunch of spoilt teenagers that their exams are more important than whatever reality tv show it is they're currently distracted by.  By that token, I don't buy into the idea that Jon's stupid.  He's definitely naïve, and prone to overlooking the significance of the petty squabbles that everyone else is caught up in, but only because he knows just how serious the real threat is.   He underestimates how important those things are to everyone else, but ultimately, he's the one who's right about it all.   

He was also right not to lie to Cersei.  He could have said something a bit more vague along the lines of how she'd proven herself to be a bad ruler so far, with no interest in the people, so he doesn't want her to stay queen, but she has the opportunity to prove him wrong during the Great War, and that if she helped, she'd guarantee her mercy or something a bit more wishy-washy, but he'd lose a lot of respect if he was to go along with the idea that he was happy for her to stay Queen.  She caused too much hurt to his family, never mind the people, for that to work.   

We know now that she was lying all along, and getting him to promise to stay out of a future was a trap she was laying for him.  If he had lied, she'd have been able to use it against him when he did inevitably side against her.  The honour and nobility of the Starks is one of their strengths and one of the reasons people rally around them.  Anything that could undermine that would do them damage. He has good instincts for what is important in the long-term, whether it's prioritising the fight against the army of the undead, or how a world where they can't trust each other doesn't do good people any favours, but this gives him a blind-spot when it comes to short-term repercussions.  Luckily for him, the short-term repercussion was getting Dany even more interested than ever before!

I'm feeling like Cersei is at the end of her arc too, as she backs herself further and further into a corner.  I don't know why anyone believes her nonsense any more.  You can half-understand Jamie, because he's been in denial about her for years and had so much to lose by admitting it to himself, but are we supposed to believe Tyrion fell for it?  I wonder if he calculated that letting Dany and Jon believe she was going to support them was the best way to move on from an unhelpful stand-off?

Gendry wouldn't have gone to the Dragonpit, because he's officially still just a smith who is handy in a fight.  If they had sense, they've have sent him ahead to Winterfell with Dragonglass to start making suitable weapons, but I think the appeal of having Arya see him arrive there is too strong for it to happen off-camera.

Well said. I think a lot of people equate lying with being smart. It’s not. It may be seen as politics as usually... not hard to see why in view of current events. However, my expectation is that Ned and his legacy will win out in the end. He did lie as well, but to protect his family, even at his own expense. His lie wasn’t selfish and self-serving. Jon is a chip off the old Ned, even if he’s not Ned’s biological son, and I like that Jon doesn’t get caught up in petty squabbles because he does see the big picture. I suppose Jon’s bluntness could have been softened a bit, not by telling Cersei that she has a vote of no-confidence from the nobility and people, but maybe pointing out that Daenerys came to the aid of the North and proved that she was protector of the realm, and that’s why Jon felt he owed her his fealty. It wouldn’t matter how he said it to Cersei anyway, because she planned to double-cross them before the discussions even started and I think she would have found an excuse to make her dramatic exit.

I agree that Cersei pretty much alienated everyone who has a shred of decency or honor and only has a zombie, a mad scientist and a crazy and unreliable Kraken pirate as allies. Sell swords are more loyal to gold than the client, or for a more important client, and I can see a couple situations where the Golden Company defect for other reasons.  For that reason, I think she’s not going to survive the wars to come. 

As for Tyrion, I think he’s a shrewd judge of character, except when it comes to himself. He is ruled by his heart when it comes to those he loves, and he loved Myrcella and Tommen and I think was feeling guilt and regret about their deaths, especially Myrcella’s. Tyrion is smart, but he’s a sap. Cersei knows how to tug his heartstrings. If he believed Cersei is pregnant, he could fool himself into believing there is a chance for a deal with Dany to protect Cersei’s child, no matter what happens to Cersei. I wouldn’t put it past him to have cut some kind of deal with Cersei because he wants to believe that she loves her unborn child and there’s some hope for the Lannister line. 

[JennyFF]

You are right, Tyrion will feel guilt about Myrcella's death and this leaves him vulnerable to Cersei pulling his strings, but he's supposed to know how manipulative she is, and has boasted about how he's smarter than her.  On that note, it was his idea that catching a wight and showing it to Cersei would be a way to get her to temporarily abandon the civil war, so even if that had all gone swimmingly, she'd still be scheming against them.   It was always a risky idea, and I don't think anyone thought otherwise, but it was agreed that their extreme circumstances justified taking that risk, so singling out either Jon or Tyrion as being stupid doesn't make sense.   

I suppose Tyrion's blind spot around Cersei is that he had huge affection for Myrcella and Tommen, if not for Joffrey.  However, he probably gave Joffrey better advice in life when he stood up to him and tried to stop him being such a spoilt brat.   As far as I can tell, Cersei's love for Joffrey was all about ensuring that he loved her more than anyone else, even if this contributed to him being a spoilt brat who would grow up to be a terrible king.  When she challenged Ellaria about Myrcella's death, she made it all about herself, and when Tommen killed himself, he was letting her down.   She saw her children as toys to feel better about herself, or tools to help her gain the power she craved.

So much happened in that final episode that I almost forgot to say how much I loved the scene between Jon and Theon and all of the talk about how it was OK for him to think of himself as both a Stark and a Greyjoy, and that he doesn't need to choose one over the other.  The more obvious extra value came from us knowing that Jon is going to face a similar dilemma soon, but Theon's words of admiration towards Jon are also significant from the man who previously felt hard done by because he thought Robb had it easy, yet mocked Jon for being the 'runt of the litter'.   It shows that he, unlike Cersei, realises that you have to take responsibility for the consequences of your own decisions.  He didn't just ask Jon for forgiveness, but he wanted to know how he does what he does.  It's the desire to improve, not just the desire for absolution, which made it so meaningful.

[kelslamu]

On 8/28/2017 at 3:42 AM, GeminiDancer said:

Tormund cannot and should not die! He and Brienne need to make big monsters who conquer the world!

Absolutely!  If this does not happen, I will be incredibly disappointed. :)

 

So, can we refer to Jon as Egg now as the old maester did when thinking of his brother Aegon. lol

 

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  ON 8/28/2017 AT 12:45 AM, MERBEARSTARE SAID:

"I was very confused by this as well. Someone in the comments section of youtube (reliable source, I know) said the showrunners have indicated that Tyrion is in love with Dany, but I hope that that's not true. One, because I like their friendship and advisor/advisee relationship and not every male/female relationship has to be romantic and two, as much as I love Dany, not every man needs to fall in love with her."

 

My thought was that Tyrion realized Jon wasn't "so little" after all, but he still is. lol  She did tell him Jon was too little.  :)

 

Also, I guess I'm probably the only one who keeps thinking Pinhead from Hellraiser every time I see the Night King.