A New Beginning: OUAT 2.0

[KingOfHearts]

1 minute ago, Camera One said:

I vaguely remembered her in the S6 finale but I wasn't sure.  I don't remember what new information she added when she returned this season, though.  I think she said something about the oldest tree in the forest.  So she knows all about the trees in the Disenchanted Forest too?  

Disenchanted!Pocahontas gave her the lowdown. 

[Camera One]

Is the Tower we're seeing in Season 7 the same one as the one from the Tangled movie?  The tower from Season 3 looked different.

It's amazing how much the Writers delved into Tangled and Rapunzel this season, and how everything this season connects back to it.  There's no need to mention those lanterns, of course.  But there are more connections that are not as obvious.  In Tangled, Rapunzel's friend was a chameleon so it was appropriate that this season, we also got an adaptation of The Princess and the Cold Blooded Animal (frog).  And if you break down the syllables of the name Flynn Ryder... Flynn rhymes with Cin and Ryder rhymes with Der... Cinderella!  In the movie poster of Tangled, there's a Tree and there's a horse with a Mane and what do you get when you put Tree and Mane together... Tremaine!  Rapunzel defends herself with a frying pan and one important part of cooking is drizzling and voila, Drizella!  Flynn Rider was a thief who Robbed people and thus Rob-yn!  And finally, "A Tangled Tale" was a collection of stories by Lewis Carroll, who wrote "Alice in Wonderland" and that's why Alice was included.  

Edited March 22, 2018 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

A&E are shedding tears of joy that you understood all their hidden references and obscure symbolisms. 

[Shanna Marie]

22 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

What's Rumple/Weaver even contributing so far other than being a sort of protective figure for Rogers and Tilly? The Guardian plot, even though it sounded dumb, should have been expanded.

And it kind of seems like Weaver has dropped it. He's shown no signs of looking for Anastasia. Maybe he thinks solving the current case will lead him to her? But for someone supposedly with a goal and a strong motivation, he's not doing much.

22 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

The Henriella arc is beyond salvage, and am not sure what they could have done better. It needed a complete overhaul, including casting decisions. 

Recasting, reading or watching any version of the Cinderella story, rethinking the idea that a woman being utterly awful to someone is the foundation of a romantic relationship. Henry needed a different motivation for his realm-hopping adventures. We should have maybe seen some of his adventures before he ran into Cinderella. We should have had glimpses of something related to the Cinderella story both in the past and in the present (like the idea to have Jacinda be Lucy's nanny, working for Victoria, under the curse). Henry should have had some kind of goal and motivation in past and present. There should have been some sign of interest or attraction between Henry and Jacinda and Henry and Ella without other people having to push them together or them needing a supernatural sign. There needed to be at least a hint of obstacles for them to overcome in both past and present. Something other than two people who come across as kind of meh about each other who must have bumped into each other forcefully enough in the past to produce Lucy (and who seem to have barely interacted since then) and who needed repeated intervention by a bartender and a child to get them to remember each other exists in the present.

23 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

What has Regina even done this season, apart from teaching Ivy magic and casting the Dark Curse?

She's provided a place for everyone to meet. Otherwise, she's had about the same plot impact as Granny. Other than her bar being the meeting place, you could remove her from the Hyperion Heights story without changing the plot at all. Oh, she threw Gothel's cake in the trash, which may or may not have saved Rogers. But I think Gothel is more interested in manipulating him than in poisoning him.

But that applies to a lot of the characters. I guess we need Lucy around because she was used to wake Anastasia, who may be important to the story. Henry and Jacinda haven't done anything that impacts the plot. If the thing with Drew and Facilier actually goes somewhere, it's possible that Sabine might be key in some way. But at the moment, the only characters who seem to be playing any active role in the plot arc and who would affect the story if they hadn't been there are Rogers, Tilly, Ivy, Lucy (just for being needed to revive Anastasia), Gothel, Victoria (who's now gone), maybe Anastasia, possibly Weaver (but did he actually do anything?).

When you could delete half the cast without the plot being affected, you've got a story problem. Half the cast has been involved in side stories that have had no impact on the main plot.

[Camera One]

1 hour ago, Shanna Marie said:

She's provided a place for everyone to meet. Otherwise, she's had about the same plot impact as Granny. 

And this season would have been more interesting if it had been Granny.

[KingOfHearts]

3 hours ago, Camera One said:

And this season would have been more interesting if it had been Granny.

90s-grunge Granny, please.

[Camera One]

15 minutes ago, CCTC said:

At this point, they really did not need to bring Carlyle back.  Has he done anything significant since ripping off Up and have they brought up the Guardian since then?  

4 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Regina's only role this season has been to angst over some dilemma. "I have to keep Henry and Jacinda apart, but I don't want to! I have to choose between saving Henry or Lucy! I love Dr. Facilier, but I have to stop him from getting the Dagger! Ergh! I'm sure if I just stand here and do nothing, someone else will solve the problem for me again!"

Two of the three characters they brought back have been given nothing interesting or important to do. 

They should have cut Rumple out of this season completely.  In 7A, he was used mainly as a distractor to occupy Rogers for the most part.

I'd say Regina has been equally useless, but perhaps she was needed if they needed to establish this as a requel with Adult Henry.

How do you think it would have worked if Regina had been Detective Miller, and Rogers worked under her? 

Though really, the whole role of Weaver in Hyperion Heights needed to be re-worked completely.

[KingOfHearts]

2 hours ago, Camera One said:

Though really, the whole role of Weaver in Hyperion Heights needed to be re-worked completely.

He was introduced as someone dodgy who got his hands dirty. (His first scene was him dunking someone in an interrogation.) But after that, he was just a straight-faced detective who only worked for Victoria because she had leverage over him or something. It's not like he enjoyed doing her dirty work, awake or not. It's pretty easy to hide a character's motivations when they only state the obvious and do nothing else. This is supposed to be Rumplestiltskin, the master manipulator. 

Edited March 24, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

8 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

This is supposed to be Rumplestiltskin, the master manipulator. 

No one even has a plan against Gothel.  They're just reacting.

[KingOfHearts]

6 minutes ago, Camera One said:

No one even has a plan against Gothel.  They're just reacting.

No one seems to really care about her or The Coat Hangers. She only turns up intermittently to give Alice a panic attack or complain about the serial killer. 

Not that we need imminent danger in every episode. But in other arcs, the Big Bad would turn up in almost every episode to remind us that there was still something bigger at play. They didn't always do anything significant (Ingrid could just leave icy snail trails everywhere.) But, at the very least, the characters should mention them. 

Edited March 24, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

It is weird how there is zero urgency.  It seems like Regina couldn't care less about Henry and Jacinda potentially kissing anymore, even before Lucy interfered. 

It's very rare that a villain is MIA so often.  Gothel now has Anastasia, so potentially she could do whatever magic she wants, but her most menacing action is making faces at a video camera.

[KingOfHearts]

The focus of this season is all over the place. First it was about Henry/Jacinda/Lucy, then it turned into the Tremaine family melodrama, then the Coat Hangers were all the rage, and now it's Alice being framed as a serial killer. Oh, yeah - Tiana's centrics are in there somewhere too. If I were to get invested in any of it, I wouldn't know what. Nothing is relevant. 

Yet, somehow, S6 is still worse...

Edited March 24, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

8 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Oh, yeah - Tiana's centrics are in there somewhere too.

I seriously don't see how Tiana is a series regular.  I really thought we were going to see her at the Rollin' Bayou this week.

[KingOfHearts]

14 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I seriously don't see how Tiana is a series regular.  I really thought we were going to see her at the Rollin' Bayou this week.

Actually, she's only coming back in the final scene of the series. Here's a top secret script I found:

INT. DIMLY LIT BEDROOM.
SABINE and DREW have just woken up from MAKING CAJUN-STYLE TACOS.
Sabine: "That was amazing! I can't believe we've already been dating for six months."
Drew: "And I've got another surprise for you, froggie."
DREW opens a small BOX, with a RING inside.
Sabine: "Yes! I will marry you! Thanks for teaching me not to be a workaholic!"
Drew: "You've changed so much, I'm so happy I didn't miss a moment of it."
Sabine: "And I'm glad I brought you out from underneath Mr. Samdi's thumb."
Drew: "So are you going to tell Jacinda?"
Sabine: "Who?"
CUT TO BLACK.

Edited March 24, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Deleted scene from "Girl in the Tower":

ROGERS: Hi Sabine.  How's business?

TIANA: Well ooh la la aren't you lookin' spiffy today.  

ROGERS: Uh, remember we aren't romantically linked anymore because of all the internet outcry.

TIANA: Oh right.  So how can I help you?

ROGERS: It's Tilly.  I'm trying to find an alibi for her yesterday and based on the powdered sugar on her coat, we figured she dropped by the Rollin' Bayou to get some beignets.  Do you remember seeing her?

TIANA: I don't use powdered sugar in my beignets.  You know I like serving mine cold and they're actually closer to cut up glazed donuts.  

ROGERS: The best beignets in town!

TIANA: Well, see you in two episodes when I might appear again.  Oh yeah, Henry.  Jacinda is frozen in her apartment right now, but could you come over in three episodes so she could hash out her daughter's sudden antagonistic attitude towards you?

[Rumsy4]

2 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

Yet, somehow, S6 is still worse...

I'd rewatch Season 7 any day over Season 6. I've already rewatched a couple of the episodes this season, which I haven't done since Season 5.

2 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

SABINE and DREW have just woken up from MAKING CAJUN-STYLE TACOS.

Haha--good one.

[KingOfHearts]

58 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

I'd rewatch Season 7 any day over Season 6. I've already rewatched a couple of the episodes this season, which I haven't done since Season 5.

The second half of S7 has been slightly better than the first half, imo. There's significantly less focus on Jacinda and the actors have gotten into a little bit of a groove. It's beginning to get its own identity as opposed to just painting by the numbers for an S1 clone. The base concepts are much more interesting than S6's, even if the execution is poor through most of it. 

Edited March 25, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

41 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

The writers obviously need to get rid of Anastasia, because she's a superfluous character and it's likely Alice will be the Guardian. 

It's interesting that Anastasia is superfluous, when she was the major motivator for two of the villains in 7A.  She was the whole driving force behind Victoria/Tremaine's actions, and Gothel and Drizella wanted her.  Yet she has hardly been onscreen since she was resurrected.  Gothel has her but has done precious little with her.  

[KingOfHearts]

42 minutes ago, Camera One said:

It's interesting that Anastasia is superfluous, when she was the major motivator for two of the villains in 7A.  She was the whole driving force behind Victoria/Tremaine's actions, and Gothel and Drizella wanted her.  Yet she has hardly been onscreen since she was resurrected.  Gothel has her but has done precious little with her.  

Anastasia's literally been watching cartoons since the spring premiere.

[Camera One]

22 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

Anastasia's literally been watching cartoons since the spring premiere.

If she's the Guardian, why isn't Weaver trying harder to try to find her and give her the Dagger?  Why isn't Weaver trying to make a deal with Gothel, that he'd help find the killer of the Coven in exchange for giving Anastasia the Dagger.  How can we care when we have zero idea what this ritual will involve?  Why would Dr. Facilier even want the Dagger anyway?  He can even bring someone back from the brink of death.  What more does he want?  

[Rumsy4]

16 minutes ago, Camera One said:

What more does he want? 

Take over Storybrooke. 

[CCTC]

53 minutes ago, Camera One said:

If she's the Guardian, why isn't Weaver trying harder to try to find her and give her the Dagger? 

Have they even brought up Weaver/Rumple's desire to be able to find the Guardian so he can die and join Belle since the Belle episode or at least in the last few episodes?  I have not been paying much attention to the Weaver scenes, so it is possible I just missed it,  but this seems like one plot that could have been dropped and give more time to develop the other story lines.

[Camera One]

31 minutes ago, CCTC said:

Have they even brought up Weaver/Rumple's desire to be able to find the Guardian so he can die and join Belle since the Belle episode or at least in the last few episodes?  I have not been paying much attention to the Weaver scenes, so it is possible I just missed it,  but this seems like one plot that could have been dropped and give more time to develop the other story lines.

In the 7A finale and the 7B premiere, Weaver is looking for the Guardian, but as you said, they haven't mentioned the REASON for doing so for a long time.  I think the last time it was mentioned was "Wake Up Call" to Regina in flashback, but Rumple never referred to the Guardian in that conversation: "It made me a new man.  That's why I'm here in this realm.  Finally ready to pass on the power of the Dark One the right way."

[Camera One]

A hilarious old quote from May, when they were teasing Season 7:

Quote

Horowitz: The age and how Henry is as old as he is without everyone else is dealt with right away as we set up the new paradigm. I think it was purposefully oblique [in the finale] but we have a plan in place and we're also allowing Rumple, Hook and the Evil Queen to be in it and I don't think they are going to be burdened with looking like it's a sequel to Cocoon.

We have a plan in place? LOL!

Quote

Kitsis: I would say that the main premise of the show is fairy-tale characters in the real world in search of their happy endings. That is going to continue next year with Henry in the lead. 

This is totally not what Season 7 is about.  It's more like fairy-tale characters in the real world reacting to other fairy-tale characters in the real world.

Quote

Kitsis: What's fun about the new iteration is that you can just jump in and if you've never seen it before — there's a lot of people who haven't seen the show and started watching it on Netflix or wanted to watch it but they feel like, "Oh, I'm four seasons behind," — the premise remains and now is the time.

I still think that is hilarious.  

[Shanna Marie]

Quote

Horowitz: The age and how Henry is as old as he is without everyone else is dealt with right away as we set up the new paradigm. I think it was purposefully oblique [in the finale] but we have a plan in place and we're also allowing Rumple, Hook and the Evil Queen to be in it and I don't think they are going to be burdened with looking like it's a sequel to Cocoon.

Did I miss this being dealt with? The only thing about age that was set up right away was de-aging Old WHook so that Colin would have a character to play without having to do heavy makeup and wear a wig and padding and without them interrupting Hook Prime's happy ending while Emma wasn't going to be in the show. There was nothing said about him not aging past that point, about Hook, Emma, and Regina not having aged while Henry grew to adulthood, about nobody aging while Lucy is born and then ages at least eight years. Based on everything we've seen of the timeline on screen, it should look like a sequel to Cocoon.

[Camera One]

When they write lines like "I'm not here to discuss timelines", it's like they know perfectly well it makes no sense and they're laughing at the people who preoccupy themselves with minute details that aren't important in their grand epic plot.

I guess one of the positive things about this season's flashbacks is that they haven't been hitting the same time period over and over again?  Granted, there are missing holes all over the place.  

[jhlipton]

On 3/20/2018 at 10:20 AM, Camera One said:

A casual viewer would assume everything in this episode occurred in the Disenchanted Forest.

I certainly did!

On 3/22/2018 at 2:07 PM, Camera One said:

And this season would have been more interesting if it had been Granny.

Age 19... because...timelines!!!

[KingOfHearts]

31 minutes ago, Mitch said:

I think Gothel is good, she fits in with the "urban" thing they are going for as she looks like a homeless person who could either be harmless, or knife you.

Gothel is that stranger you never want to encounter in a dark alley. She's a genuine creep. The actress has done a great job of making my skin crawl whenever she's onscreen, but in a good way. If I can look past the rape issue, she fills the role of the antagonist well. Now, Gothel doesn't have the weight to carry as the final Big Bad, but I could see her as a side baddie or one of the villains in an earlier season. (Such as S4 or S5.) Though, like most of S7, she probably won't get the credit she deserves because this is the season most likely to get written off.

Quote

But I think the whole urban thing has been wasted this year, not only in terms of "how do these people appear in an apparently existing hood" but that it has been confined to three not every convincing sets and an obviously fake hood to film.

Hyperion Heights doesn't service the show's premise, simply because there's only one way it could and it's not going that direction. If anything, HH should have been a stark contrast to the fairy tales, as opposed to Storybrooke, which was more of a complement. It should have been bleakly realistic so the curse would have some tension. We shouldn't want to see the characters in HH at all because they're not supposed to be there, and well, it's supposed to be a curse. S1 was compelling because the audience desperately wished to see their favorite characters free to be their true selves. With half of HH awake and minimal danger, there's no urgency. There's not much difference between the Disenchanted Forest and Roni/Kelly's bar.

[Shanna Marie]

4 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

We shouldn't want to see the characters in HH at all because they're not supposed to be there, and well, it's supposed to be a curse. S1 was compelling because the audience desperately wished to see their favorite characters free to be their true selves. With half of HH awake and minimal danger, there's no urgency.

They've also done some things backwards. Rogers and Tilly are together more with the curse, in spite of him sacrificing the elephant token so Ella and Lucy could be together, than they were in the Disenchanted Forest. We saw them forging a relationship in HH before we even knew what their relationship really was, so there's been no angst about father and daughter being torn apart. If anything, the curse allowed them to be together in a way they couldn't be back home since they seem to be able to be near each other without him being hurt. The only thing is that they don't know their relationship, but how much does that matter when they're spending time together and he's taking her in and looking after her? Getting their memories back wouldn't change much. Ella/Jacinda and Tiana/Sabine are still friends and are roommates. Jacinda and Henry have been hanging out together all this time, with nothing really keeping them apart. Henry's been hanging out with Roni. The only people split up in a big way are Alice and Robyn, and we've barely seen them together, so it's hard to feel too bad about them being separated. Now that Robyn's back in town, they'll probably get back together quickly, too. There's no equivalent to David being made to think he was married to Kathryn so that he couldn't be with Snow or to Jefferson's daughter being brought up by different parents and him having to watch her from afar. Everyone has more or less the same personality, so they're not being forced to be the worst version of themselves. For the most part, the curse just put them in a different place and gave them different names and different jobs.

[Camera One]

Villains are better in moderation but Gothel's effectiveness has been diluted by stretching her out over two half-seasons.  If she had a more condensed story, she would be more menacing.  As it is, she appears so intermittently that the threat from her is not felt.  Her line delivery is better than the Black Fairy but she still lacks the deliciously evil quality of some of the better villains.  Her overly white makeup is appropriate for the youth-obsessed Gothel but doesn't give me the urban vibe.  

26 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

The only thing is that they don't know their relationship, but how much does that matter when they're spending time together and he's taking her in and looking after her? Getting their memories back wouldn't change much. 

That's how I feel too.  Even though the connection between Rogers and Tilly is the most similar to that of Mary Margaret and Emma in Season 1, I don't have the urgent desire to see Rogers/Tilly remember as much as with Mary Margaret and Emma.  Part of that is because Mary Margaret and Emma never got to know each other.  They were separated at the Curse and lost 28 years.  To have them find out that the person they had been looking for all this time was their new friend had (should have had) a huge impact.  Even without the Curse, they wouldn't know each other's true identities and we would want them to.  Whereas we saw that Whook and Alice loved each other and spent 8-10 years together.  Once they remember (if they're still not Cursed), they'll hug and that's it.  It's even less of an impact with Henry and Lucy.  For all we know, they have only been separated for 6 months.  

The whole poisoned heart thing is also weirdly constructed since it's unclear how close Whook and Alice could be.  They were behind a tree but close enough to talk last year.  In the Tower, they were in the same room together.  It would still have been difficult, but they could have had more contact than they did.

Edited March 30, 2018 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

4 minutes ago, Camera One said:

The whole poisoned heart thing is also weirdly constructed since it's unclear how close Whook and Alice could be.  They were behind a tree but close enough to talk last year.  In the Tower, they were in the same room together.  It would still have been difficult, but they could have had more contact than they did.

That's the part that's hard to believe about this storyline. One of Hook's main character traits is his 100 percent commitment to anything he decides is important. WHook seems to have been on the same vengeance quest for more than a century before giving it up for Alice, much in the same way that our Hook gave it up for Emma. We've seen what he was willing to go through for Emma. It's hard to imagine any version of Hook just giving up on his daughter, even if he couldn't hug her. At the very least, he'd have stood at the foot of that tower and shouted up to her so she wouldn't feel alone. He'd have put up a hut at the foot of the tower to be as close as possible to her, even if he couldn't be in the same room with her. He would only have given up and become what we first saw of him in the Wish Realm if he had gone away for supplies and came back to find the roof torn off the tower and Alice gone, and only then after he'd exhausted himself looking for her. But if he'd been visiting her regularly, would she have left as soon as she escaped or would she have waited for him or at least left a note, or something, so he'd know she was okay?

[KingOfHearts]

32 minutes ago, Camera One said:

That's how I feel too.  Even though the connection between Rogers and Tilly is the most similar to that of Mary Margaret and Emma in Season 1, I don't have the urgent desire to see Rogers/Tilly remember as much as with Mary Margaret and Emma.  Part of that is because Mary Margaret and Emma never got to know each other.  They were separated at the Curse and lost 28 years.  To have them find out that the person they had been looking for all this time was their new friend had (should have had) a huge impact.  Even without the Curse, they wouldn't know each other's true identities and we would want them to.  Whereas we saw that Whook and Alice loved each other and spent 8-10 years together.  Once they remember (if they're still not Cursed), they'll hug and that's it.  It's even less of an impact with Henry and Lucy.  For all we know, they have only been separated for 6 months.  

Rogers and Tilly have a similar dynamic to father/daughter, in that she is younger and he's acting as her guardian of sorts. Emma and Mary Margaret, on the other hand, had a completely different dynamic from mother/daughter. They were the same age and acted more like roomie gal pals, talking about one night stands. The way Rogers and Tilly view each other won't be that mindblowing when they get their memories back. They're effectively the same people, minus a DNA test.

34 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Villains are better in moderation but Gothel's effectiveness has been diluted by stretching her out over two half-seasons.  If she had a more condensed story, she would be more menacing.  As it is, she appears so intermittently that the threat from her is not felt.  Her line delivery is better than the Black Fairy but she still lacks the deliciously evil quality of some of the better villains.  Her overly white makeup is appropriate for the youth-obsessed Gothel but doesn't give me the urban vibe.  

The stretching out could have worked better if she remained a grayer character for longer. She was interesting when she was trapped in Victoria's tower because we didn't know what her motives were. Now that we know they're 100% nefarious, she's simply the current Big Bad. While she carries that mantle well, her transient presence is pretty jarring. 

[Rumsy4]

The problem with Gothel is that we still don't know what she wants. The actress is doing a pretty good job, but without knowing her motives, a vaguely menacing villain who occasionally dispenses moral tests to people just doesn't cut it.

1 hour ago, Shanna Marie said:

It's hard to imagine any version of Hook just giving up on his daughter, even if he couldn't hug her...He would only have given up and become what we first saw of him in the Wish Realm if he had gone away for supplies and came back to find the roof torn off the tower and Alice gone, and only then after he'd exhausted himself looking for her.

Exactly. We need to know what happened to turn the WHook we saw at the end of Knight Fall into the sloppy drunk of S6. Did he keep going to the Tower? Was he somehow prevented from climbing up the Tower because of the Curse? Did the Curse actually change his personality? There is a huge disconnect there which the Show has left unexplained (and will leave it that way, sadly). In my headcanon fic, I wrote that Alice escaped one day through the Looking Glass into Wonderland, and was prevented from coming back to the Realm by the terms of the Curse on the Tower. Even a little explanation like that would have helped. But there writers can't even bother to keep it straight as to when the Tower was partially vs fully destroyed within the same season. 

Edited March 30, 2018 by Rumsy4

[Camera One]

33 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

We need to know what happened to turn the WHook we saw at the end of Knight Fall into the sloppy drunk of S6. Did he keep going to the Tower? Was he somehow prevented from climbing up the Tower because of the Curse? Did the Curse actually change his personality? There is a huge disconnect there which the Show has left unexplained (and will leave it that way, sadly). 

 

Given what we know about these Writers and how many episodes we have left, I'm guessing the Writers assume that we can just fill in the pieces ourselves and the disconnect is probably not as obvious unless someone really thinks about the arc as a whole.  By giving the story piecemeal and out of order, a lot of plot holes can be swept under the rug.  Even I didn't immediate think about these questions about Whook when watching this episode.  

Here are the key essential backstories that I'm guessing we're going to get in the 6 episodes left (not counting the 2 final episodes):
- Mother Gothel's backstory 
- How Rumple became the Imp again and his continued search for the Guardian
- How Alice and Robyn fell in love and got separated
- Dr. Facilier and Regina's origin story
(that leaves room for 2 more... well 1 since we're not getting any of these in tonight's episode based on the promo)

Maybe or maybe not:
- What happened to Whook between getting the poisoned heart and becoming an old overweight drunk
- Henry and Jacinda getting engaged and married and starting a family (this one is the fan favorite I'm sure)
- What Dr. Facilier has been doing since the flashback with Tiana (probably included in the Dr. Facilier/Regina backstory episode flashback)
- Why Zelena moved to a farm (probably included in the Alice/Robyn separation story above)
- Origin story of The Guardian (probably included in Mother Gothel's backstory)
- How/why Anastasia and Drizella have magic?
- Alice's journeys to Wonderland and other places before meeting Robyn (probably partly addressed in Rumple flashback story above)

Unlikely:
- Lady Tremaine's alliance with the King and killing Marcus, etc. (probably not with the Victoria actress gone)
- Day 1/Early days of Curse in Hyperion Heights (probably not with the Victoria actress gone)
- Another Tiana flashback - how she became the Queen?  how she learned to make beignets? (they must have made her series regular for a reason... right?  crickets?)
- What happened to Henry between leaving Storybrooke and meeting Jacinda in the Disenchanted Forest
- Nick? (lol)

Edited March 30, 2018 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

1 minute ago, Camera One said:

How Alice and Robyn fell in love and got separated

Did they get separated? We saw them making out just before the curse, so it seems like they got together in this most recent episode and remained a couple until the curse. Given the way relationships on this show are written, I'm guessing they considered "The Girl in the Tower" to be the story of how they fell in love.

3 minutes ago, Camera One said:

How Rumple became the Imp again and his continued search for the Guardian

This one would have to include how WHook and Rumple are now on good enough terms that Rumple was willing to help ensure that WHook wasn't separated from his daughter by the curse.

5 minutes ago, Camera One said:

- What happened to Whook between getting the poisoned heart and becoming a old overweight drunk
- Henry and Jacinda getting engaged and married and starting a family 

I don't think they care about these, or think we should be able to connect the dots.

[Camera One]

3 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

Did they get separated? We saw them making out just before the curse, so it seems like they got together in this most recent episode and remained a couple until the curse. Given the way relationships on this show are written, I'm guessing they considered "The Girl in the Tower" to be the story of how they fell in love.

I thought right before the Curse, Zelena was living on a farm with Robyn in some other realm where the timeline was different?  That part confused me.

[Camera One]

15 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

This one would have to include how WHook and Rumple are now on good enough terms that Rumple was willing to help ensure that WHook wasn't separated from his daughter by the curse.

Rumple said he didn't do it for Whook, he did it for Alice.  So I guess this flashback will have to explain why Alice stuck by Rumple's side and what he "gave up" for her and why.

[Shanna Marie]

10 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I thought right before the Curse, Zelena was living on a farm with Robyn in some other realm where the timeline was different?  That part confused me.

I think we just assumed (understandably) that the timeline was different (and possibly even that it was a different realm because of the timeline being different) because they made a point out of Regina asking how old Robyn was now, as though she couldn't keep track of the time difference, and Robyn being that age surely meant that time was passing differently where she was since it would make all the returning adult characters be in their 50s and 60s and make Henry close to 40 if they'd been in the same realm the whole time, and that obviously wasn't the case (ha!). But given that age and Robyn's age when they left Storybrooke, the passage of time has been exactly the same, and the farm may just be down the road from the castle. At this point, I'm not even sure the writers have the slightest idea where things are or what the timeline is.

1 minute ago, Camera One said:

Rumple said he didn't do it for Whook, he did it for Alice.  So I guess this flashback will have to explain why Alice stuck by Rumple's side and what he "gave up" for her and why.

They had to have connected pretty quickly, since he arrived in that realm right before Henry ran into Ella, and Alice immediately kidnapped him.

And even if Rumple didn't give over the elephant for WHook, they're not trying to kill each other, and awakened Weaver is pretty protective of Rogers, so something had to have changed.

[Mitch]

3 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

Gothel is that stranger you never want to encounter in a dark alley. She's a genuine creep. The actress has done a great job of making my skin crawl whenever she's onscreen, but in a good way. If I can look past the rape issue, she fills the role of the antagonist well. Now, Gothel doesn't have the weight to carry as the final Big Bad, but I could see her as a side baddie or one of the villains in an earlier season. (Such as S4 or S5.) Though, like most of S7, she probably won't get the credit she deserves because this is the season most likely to get written off.

Hyperion Heights doesn't service the show's premise, simply because there's only one way it could and it's not going that direction. If anything, HH should have been a stark contrast to the fairy tales, as opposed to Storybrooke, which was more of a complement. It should have been bleakly realistic so the curse would have some tension. We shouldn't want to see the characters in HH at all because they're not supposed to be there, and well, it's supposed to be a curse. S1 was compelling because the audience desperately wished to see their favorite characters free to be their true selves. With half of HH awake and minimal danger, there's no urgency. There's not much difference between the Disenchanted Forest and Roni/Kelly's bar.

Agreed...I think the Curse in S1 worked at the whole point was that they were indeed trapped, with their free will taken,( which is a better way of putting in then that dumb ass happy endings thing...) and being brow beat by Mayor Mills.  Now the SB from the pilot was far different from the SB in the rest of the season in that it looked ominous and depressing. I know they didn't want them to carry that out for the viewers but I was always hoping someone would say, "Have you noticed since around the time Emma arrived its seems so much sunnier and the trees are blossoming" or something with Regina looking pissed realizing the curse is slowly breaking.

 In HH..who cares, people come and go as they please and our world has always been preferable to the medievel hell hole they lived in..despite their airy fairy magic. I actually think Zelena would LOVE living in San Francisco and trading snark with the boys in her spin class.  Gothal is slumping around town, Victoria is dead, Driz is not a threat in their everyday lives...without Mayor Mills looming over everything is looks like the saddest more pathetic curse ever...."I CURSE you to a land with central air and indoor plumbing, where you can pick up what is called a phone and food appears, even without magic!"  The big threat..if the curse breaks Henry dies doesnt make sense.  Breaking the curse didn't bring magic to SB,..Rump did....so dimbulb is still in the LWOM.

Plus, it was fun seeing Mayor Mills being deliciously evil, all the while acting like her s*it didn't stink, and waiting for her comeuppance...which we didn't get to see...(AND I was rooting for Regina to outsmart them all and come out as best her wily self could but we didn't even get that...just a lot of crying.. and people kissing her butt.)

It would have been fun to see a bleakly realistic contrast to CGI land..which is what I was hoping for but shouldnt known better.

[Camera One]

9 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

I think we just assumed (understandably) that the timeline was different (and possibly even that it was a different realm because of the timeline being different) because they made a point out of Regina asking how old Robyn was now, as though she couldn't keep track of the time difference,

Regina commented on how much Robyn has grown except Robyn looked exactly the same six years before when Zelena and Robyn were in the Disenchanted Forest and Lucy was just a baby.  So it suggests Regina hasn't seen them for six years so they must have left for some reason and it needed to be further away.

11 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

They had to have connected pretty quickly, since he arrived in that realm right before Henry ran into Ella, and Alice immediately kidnapped him.

Yeah, I see a retcon coming, LOL.

Edited March 30, 2018 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

1 minute ago, Camera One said:

So it suggests Regina hasn't seen them for six years so they must have left for some reason.

It probably suggests that the writers forgot that scene when they came up with a new brilliant idea and had Gothel kidnapping 18-year-old Robyn from Storybrooke. That earlier scene made it seem like Zelena had moved to another realm with Robyn when Robyn was a small child, and she'd grown up a lot faster than Regina expected, having been a child the last time she saw her. Now we have a Robyn who looks exactly the same who's been living on the same timeline as Regina for years and who was in Storybrooke until she was 18.

Just trying to parse all this is making my head hurt.

[Camera One]

4 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

It probably suggests that the writers forgot that scene when they came up with a new brilliant idea and had Gothel kidnapping 18-year-old Robyn from Storybrooke. That earlier scene made it seem like Zelena had moved to another realm with Robyn when Robyn was a small child, and she'd grown up a lot faster than Regina expected, having been a child the last time she saw her.

That would be a huge continuity error.  We need to have faith in the Author.

[KingOfHearts]

5 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

Just trying to parse all this is making my head hurt.

And we thought 5A was bad.

[Camera One]

Just now, KingOfHearts said:

And we thought 5A was bad.

Nimue is not amused.

[KingOfHearts]

1 minute ago, Camera One said:

Nimue is not amused.

Is her soul inside Rumple now?

[Rumsy4]

12 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Is her soul inside Rumple now?

Will all the Dark Ones ever be free of Rumple? Will Nimue walk into the Light? I want to know!!

[CCTC]

I thought Nimue in Dark One mode was actually pretty creepy, and the actor who played Merlin was pretty charismatic.  There was so much that could have been done with Camelot.  Did Merlin and Nimue even get as much screen time as Meridia? 

That arc probably would have been better served with a more straight forward telling - just stayed in Camelot and told the story with the necessary flashbacks.  Adding the mystery element of how they got back to Story Brooke and how Emma turned dark just added too much where everything was ended up  half-baked and underdeveloped.  Plus, the no one remembering what had happened was already an over-used plot device.  They were trying to be clever and instead wasted an opportunity to really mine the Arthurian legends.  Oh - and I would have been ok with no Meridia.

[Camera One]

This latest episode (Episode 15) gave me bad flashbacks of "Page 23", which was Episode 14 of Season 6.  In both episodes, the character who caused major problems that are ongoing (last season: The Evil Queen, this season: Drizella) promises to be a better person, is rewarded with forgiveness and Regina's blessing, and leaves via portal even though the problems they caused have not been resolved.  

Anastasia, whose resurrection was the goal of the first villain Tremaine and the second villain Drizella and who supposedly had special value for Rumple and Gothel, just leaves without doing anything that affected the basic premise of this season.    

The way full-season arcs are plotted on this show is nonsensical.  Are they always just flying by the seat of their pants and making U-turns depending on what sticks, or was it actually planned out this way?

I know Jacinda isn't a beloved character, but shouldn't her scenes in "Sisterhood" have been with her stepsisters instead of making googly eyes and playing drinking games with Henry?  It just reinforces the fact that this story has nothing to do with Cinderella.

Edited March 31, 2018 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

I know Jacinda isn't a beloved character, but shouldn't her scenes in "Sisterhood" have been with her stepsisters instead of making googly eyes and playing drinking games with Henry?  It just reinforces the fact that this story has nothing to do with Cinderella.

And you can bet your butt that Jacinda won't have any reaction at all to Drizella's mysterious departure.

[Rumsy4]

2 hours ago, Camera One said:

Anastasia, whose resurrection was the goal of the first villain Tremaine and the second villain Drizella and who supposedly had special value for Rumple and Gothel, just leaves without doing anything that affected the basic premise of this season.

There's misdirection. And there's this. A&E excel in wasting characters and screen time on unnecessary tangents.  

It seems obvious that Alice is going to be the Guardian. Even at the start, there was the blatant hint when the portal led recently widowered Gold right to Alice when he was looking for the Guardian. He also seems to have sacrificed his humanity to save her from someone or something (WRumple is my guess). The writers should have built on their connection from then on. Instead, it's been a C-plot for most of the time. 

Why couldn't Gothel have been the one to cast the Dark Curse (or the once to induce Regina to cast it)? We would have had more time to focus on the main characters. Much as Henry bores me, he has done nothing this season. He is a supporting character to all. Roni has been wasted in a maternal role that came out of nowhere. If she was getting a  romance, why not have it start in 7A? Weaver is practically a different character from Rumple. 

The connection between Rogers and Tilly has been one of the most, if not the most interesting threads this season. IMO it's been the most well-acted and well-written arc of this season. The actors shine. Why not given them more screen time than wasting it on characters and interactions that have become irrelevant? How is Tiana relevant to anything? She might as well have been a one-off episode character. She and Ivy have been such a disappointment in their wasted potential. 

2 hours ago, Camera One said:

The way full-season arcs are plotted on this show is nonsensical.  Are they always just flying by the seat of their pants and making U-turns depending on what sticks, or was it actually planned out this way?

I don't understand. It seems like they must have had at least the Alice as Guardian plot and Regina's romance planned from the start. But they have done nothing with it until now. And even now, these plots are at the periphery. Is it their excuse that they did not expect to be cancelled? That seems rather presumptuous/deluded. 

Edited March 31, 2018 by Rumsy4