S02.E13: Echo

[Roseanna]

On ‎30‎.‎7‎.‎2014 at 6:32 AM, kikaha said:

Nina is a hustler, who sent an innocent man to his likely death, for a crime she committed.  

Actually, it was Stan who planed the trap and he did it to save Nina who only followed his orders. And the man wasn't exactly innocent (unlike the man Stan killed on revenge), he was the KGB chief in the USA. And as we saw, he wasn't killed which is unlikely.

This is one of the few plots where I find a very big hole. When the KGB chief claimed that he was been staged, the likely suspect would be Nina. I think that this scenario would even been explored by KGB, especially as because his station he would have betrayed much more important secrets than Nina, but it never was. 

On ‎27‎.‎7‎.‎2014 at 5:49 PM, sistermagpie said:

Nina did by trying to get blackmarket goods back to Russia

That was a crime in the Soviet Union, but I feel only sympathy towards Nina, although she also stole caviar from them Embassy. After all, she wanted to help her family by giving them goods that a normal family in the West owed (or maybe they got money by selling them). (Only, now I think about it, wouldn't such packages risen suspicions?)

As Oleg's family was a part of nomenklatura,  they could buy almost any Western goods in special shops. And almost all Western tourists either sold nylons, jeans, records etc or changed money in black market. 

Edited May 16, 2017 by Roseanna
correcting grammar

[Roseanna]

On ‎27‎.‎7‎.‎2014 at 5:49 PM, sistermagpie said:

It's just an interesting relationship because it's so subjective which person's behavior comes across as more or less wrong or which character got themselves into their own mess. 

Exactly, and one must always remember they are not ordinary people living ordinary lives. They are spies and contra-spies. Therefore, I think it's absurd to demand them such things as honesty.

Stan blackmailed Nina to betray her country and promised to keep her safe although that he knew that his promise was impossible to keep, but that's what contra-spies do. If Nina had been "honest" with Stan, she would have dishonest to her superiors and betrayed her sountry - and probably caught and dead much sooner.

All the time, Nina and Stan would have to make choices, not between betrayal or loyalty, but whom they would betray. And there is no easy answer which is always right. 

On ‎22‎.‎5‎.‎2014 at 6:21 AM, soapfaninnc said:

I can't stand Elizabeth. Truly. I cannot relate to someone so rabid about her cause that she'd throw her own children over to it. Maybe cause I was raised by one like that. I dunno.

In ordinary circumstances, no. But Elizabeth believes that she is truly working for the better world, for all children. Understanding it isn't the same as accepting it.

[SusanSunflower]

I'm grateful it all happened so fast without many moments to exclaim WTF, however, I'm incredibly disturbed that Kate was running Jared without Claudia's knowledge, much less approval -- and -- that his little family annihilation was seemingly A-OK after the fact with Kate still running Jared and (IDK, y'think) keeping his little secret? rather than exfiltrating his psychopathic sorry ass to Russia (or anywhere but here) to be given some "new life" or special assignment to keep him busy while his psychopathology was assessed. 

Prior to Stan's sudden deep interest in the family's murder (which was actually just coincidentally on the same day as the big security/intelligence confab), Jared was just a loose end to get resolved ... and kids that age do simply "run away from home" or foster home ... get on a Greyhound bus, Gus and take off to see America ... 

I didn't like Kate ... her "tradecraft" seemed too casual .. but in keeping with the "younger / new generation" theme that been popping up all over the place ... even the Rezidentura with Oleg and Paige's sudden religious interests and Henry being seduced by video games into hushed-up middle school burglary (imagine when he hits Paige's age).  

On a lesser show, the murder's denouement would have had me cursing and swearing to never give these show runners my time ... but it really is remarkably well done.  I'm not sure if that is despite having so many writers or because of it.  Well done show. 

[Roseanna]

4 hours ago, SusanSunflower said:

I'm grateful it all happened so fast without many moments to exclaim WTF, however, I'm incredibly disturbed that Kate was running Jared without Claudia's knowledge, much less approval -- and -- that his little family annihilation was seemingly A-OK after the fact with Kate still running Jared and (IDK, y'think) keeping his little secret? rather than exfiltrating his psychopathic sorry ass to Russia (or anywhere but here) to be given some "new life" or special assignment to keep him busy while his psychopathology was assessed. 

Prior to Stan's sudden deep interest in the family's murder (which was actually just coincidentally on the same day as the big security/intelligence confab), Jared was just a loose end to get resolved ... and kids that age do simply "run away from home" or foster home ... get on a Greyhound bus, Gus and take off to see America ... 

I didn't like Kate ... her "tradecraft" seemed too casual .. but in keeping with the "younger / new generation" theme that been popping up all over the place ... even the Rezidentura with Oleg and Paige's sudden religious interests and Henry being seduced by video games into hushed-up middle school burglary (imagine when he hits Paige's age).  

On a lesser show, the murder's denouement would have had me cursing and swearing to never give these show runners my time ... but it really is remarkably well done.  I'm not sure if that is despite having so many writers or because of it.  Well done show. 

You are quite right: after Jared murdered his parents and sister, it was evident that he wouldn't have qualities to become a good agent. On the contrary, he was a risk because he couldn't be controlled. 

However, did Kate and Center know the truth? At least they could have suspected it, unlike Elizabeth who didn't know Kate's actions.

The most important thing was the plot worked in the show in the sense that it was a good way to prime the next season and show P&E's different attitudes towards their children and Center.

 However, Stan seemed to drop the whole matter, not bothering properly search for the other couple's tracks which could have given clues of their contacts and  KGB's dealings with illegals. 

[sistermagpie]

7 hours ago, Roseanna said:

You are quite right: after Jared murdered his parents and sister, it was evident that he wouldn't have qualities to become a good agent. On the contrary, he was a risk because he couldn't be controlled. 

However, did Kate and Center know the truth? At least they could have suspected it, unlike Elizabeth who didn't know Kate's actions.

Yeah, I wonder if Kate knew. It seems like Jared would have told her since he claimed the murders were to protect his "cover" but it's amazing they left him in place. No way he could have been an agent having started his career by murdering two of the KGB's most valuable, along with his own sister. 

[Roseanna]

On ‎27‎.‎7‎.‎2014 at 10:14 AM, kikaha said:

And yet Nina was trying to do the exact same thing to him.  Her betrayal was worse IMO: she actively lied and misrepresented herself to him.  He at least was upfront and honest with her, and truly did have her best interests at heart.  

I watched the first season again and I  want to comment again.

It's clear to me that Nina was "honest and upfront" to Stan until he killed her friend Vlad and lied about it. Of course we can't be sure about her feelings, but until then she gave him exact information, in fact all the information she had got. Which on the other hand meant that she betrayed her country and her collegues.

Stan, on the other hand, was not "honest and upright" with Nina, not even before he killed Vlad and lied about it. He may have loved Nina, but he had not "her best interests at heart". He used her in order to get so much information as possible and gave her promises he knew he probably could not keep (as Gaad clearly said, that wasn't the practice, so if Stan believed it, he betrayed also himself). His work was always more important than Nina.

There is a scene after Vladi was killed, where Stan again says to Nina that he don't know who killed Vlad. After that Nina says that she has no more a country nor family, she has nothing but "fear and you". I think it accurately sums her situation. It's the first time she deliberately withhelds information from Stan, although she haven't yet made her confession to Arkady, so it seems clearly that she has realized that she can't trust him.    

Also, in the same scene, Nina begins to dress, on her back towards Stan and he comes to her and begins to caress her. It may be that Nina sent an invitation but this time Stan made an initiative, revealing his need for her.  Considering what Nina had just found about Stan's character and what she had said about her own situation, sex is her only way to have some hold on him. Without it, he would have no qualms to offer her.   

 

On ‎30‎.‎7‎.‎2014 at 6:32 AM, kikaha said:

Nina is a hustler, who sent an innocent man to his likely death, for a crime she committed.  She used sex as a weapon against people who cared for her deeply or even loved her.   

If Nina was a hustler, Stan was her pimp. And it was Stan who set the trap to Vasily in order to save Nina.   

In the show both Elizabeth and Philip use sex as weapon and at least Martha loves deeply "Clark". So I can't understand why it's Nina who would be most quilty, as she is in mortal danger where she has no other weapons than sex and her wits.

Whatever else one can say about Nina, she knew the rules of the game and could play it admirably well. If she had been a woman who put "love" first, she would be duped like Martha.  

[SusanSunflower]

In the beginning and arguably throughout Nina had no (real) power over Stan or anyone else -- she could be an embarassment and a hassle (somebody who needed to be "taken care of" one way or another -- relocated, witness protection, murdered).  That's what makes her "less bad" ... her ability to do harm anyone was extremely limited.  I was impressed at her shock and hurt that Vlad was killed for "no reason" because he knew NOTHING.   That shocked and disgusted her. 

When Stan was buying Nina's "getaway car", I wondered if she knew how to drive ... had we ever seen her drive?  or was she (like many on the east coast) a city girl who used public transportation and an occasional taxi for those too rare trips out of the city.  (Maybe we saw her behind the wheel and I've just forgotten).  Was he buying "their" getaway car?  Was he just passing the time, being busy? 

I don't recall anything about Nina's finances but doubt she had the resources to just "go underground" for long on cash-only basis, though in the 80's, such cash-only transactions were not the "red-flags" they are now for airplane tickets, etc. 

I'm still puzzled over Jared's rant about his parent not letting him know "who I really am" and "lying about who I am" ... It sounded almost delusional and paranoid (as if he had found out he was (a) adopted, (b) significantly the son of a famous man ...  Did Kate put those ideas in his head or was he just another crazy mixed up teenager with delusions ... 

Anyone think Kate didn't seduce the boy? and apparently he thought they had a future together -- some great love and some great future .... was that Kate's recruiting strategy, that and setting a son against his parents.  The all-too-brief description of the shooting sounds like an enraged teenager with access to a gun ... killing his father in response to his father's rage (see Phillip with Paige) ... and then killing his mother because she tried to "interfere" and  then his sister because she was "hysterical" and making a lot of noise. 

Speaking of Phillip, I'd really really hate to see him "lose it" further than he lost it with Paige ... his M.O. is to be agreeable and "don't sweat the small stuff" ...his anger seemed genuine (rather than "for effect") like 99% of his interactions.  I've noticed he uses rather similar techniques with both Martha and Elizabeth ... so agreeable, until he isn't. 

Edited May 17, 2017 by SusanSunflower

[Roseanna]

5 hours ago, SusanSunflower said:

Anyone think Kate didn't seduce the boy? and apparently he thought they had a future together -- some great love and some great future .... was that Kate's recruiting strategy, that and setting a son against his parents.  

On the basis of what Jared told to Elizabeth, Kate seduced him at least emotionally. Whether they had an intercourse, doesn't really matter. It was bad enough to make him totally dependent on her.

This plot was ok only because it was revealed in this one episode. For when one begins to think, it was the stupidest strategy one can imagine. Why one would Center who had now two important agents, take the risk to estrange them because of a teenage boy who could maybe be useful after two decades?   

[sistermagpie]

6 hours ago, SusanSunflower said:

I'm still puzzled over Jared's rant about his parent not letting him know "who I really am" and "lying about who I am" ... It sounded almost delusional and paranoid (as if he had found out he was (a) adopted, (b) significantly the son of a famous man ...  Did Kate put those ideas in his head or was he just another crazy mixed up teenager with delusions ... 

He wasn't delusional, he was telling the truth. He thought he was the son of two Americans who did whatever job they did. Really he was the son of two Russian spies. One who was being watched by the KGB for recruitment as well.

6 hours ago, SusanSunflower said:

Anyone think Kate didn't seduce the boy? and apparently he thought they had a future together -- some great love and some great future .... was that Kate's recruiting strategy, that and setting a son against his parents.

Yes, I think she seduced him (whether or not they actually had sex, which it seems to me they would have), but her intention was never to turn him against his parents. She just wanted to get him into the Cause and then they would all work it together. She wanted him to want to be like his parents. She didn't get anything out of him being against them. The Centre didn't seem to understand they were even doing that by telling him behind his parents' backs about their real identity. The Centre made Jared's family a lie when it really wasn't.

[SusanSunflower]

I'm mostly trying to "figure out" Kate, who was apparently an up-and-comer (being P&E's age or younger) -- as I said, I was relieved it all happened in a very few (Jared dying) minutes (after Kate's death, we assume), so there's no one to ask -- except Claudia and I think them all talking about catastrophic choices by "handlers" is unlikely.  With both of them dead (how conveeenient) their secrecy ensures we don't have much to talk about.  I think (99% sure based on her behavior and apparent depression) that Claudia didn't know the real circumstances -- we'd have seen more anger, less depression/grief.  Still, I think Jared's parents  -- his father from Jared's description -- might have taken drastic steps, sever ties as P&E are suggesting doing, so the Centre might well have lost them as willing assets in any event, that bridge might have already been crossed.  (I didn't like Kate -- she seemed unsubstantial somehow -- I'm not mourning the loss of her character (who, in hindsight, deserved more development). 

Edited May 17, 2017 by SusanSunflower

[Roseanna]

48 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

but her intention was never to turn him against his parents. She just wanted to get him into the Cause and then they would all work it together. She wanted him to want to be like his parents. She didn't get anything out of him being against them. The Centre didn't seem to understand they were even doing that by telling him behind his parents' backs about their real identity. The Centre made Jared's family a lie when it really wasn't.

The Centre was very stupid if they didn't understand, and I think that whatever else they are, stupid is the last thing they are. Before all, there was no cause to do behind the parent's back - unless the parents had already been asked and they had refused and then it was even stupider.

28 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

Still, I think Jared's parents  -- his father from Jared's description -- might have taken drastic steps, sever ties as P&E are suggesting doing, so the Centre might well have lost them as willing assets in any event, that bridge might have already been crossed. 

I think so, too, on the basis of the small glimpses that we saw of them. Plus that they absolutely refused Jared to do it.

[sistermagpie]

12 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

The Centre was very stupid if they didn't understand, and I think that whatever else they are, stupid is the last thing they are. Before all, there was no cause to do behind the parent's back - unless the parents had already been asked and they had refused and then it was even stupider.

47 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

The parents were asked and they did refuse. That's why the Centre sent in Kate and told the kid behind their backs. The Centre is very often stupid.

[SusanSunflower]

Or Kate was -- RIP -- very stupid and headstrong and -- unless I'm mistaken (and we may never know) left Claudia in the dark.  There were other indications that no matter how much (a lot!!!) Elizabeth hated Claudia (and Phillip didn't like her much either fwiw and he supports his wife), Kate had earned little to no trust or confidence ... no honeymoon.   Elizabeth might hate Claudia but you could see that with Claudia she "knew where things stood" ... Kate's "lucky to be dead" because otherwise I think Elizabeth would have felt duty-bound to kill her.  come what may. 

[Roseanna]

2 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

The parents were asked and they did refuse. That's why the Centre sent in Kate and told the kid behind their backs. The Centre is very often stupid.

Not that stupid. The Centre is rather willing to take great risks, that is endanger its agents, in order to get great gains.

I would like to think it was rather Kate's idea. That newbie probably wanted to get results fast but had no common sense.

As we have seen, Claudia had as well as a nose for trouble, alhough after saying her own opinion to the Centre, she always followed orders. 

[sistermagpie]

Just now, Roseanna said:

Not that stupid. The Centre is rather willing to take great risks, that is endanger its agents, in order to get great gains.

 

But they are this stupid. This was the Centre's plan and their idea. It wasn't Kate's. She would never have been allowed to do that on her own. The Centre knew all about it and when it blew up in their faces the lesson they learned was to not allow the parents to say no.

[SusanSunflower]

Quote

41 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

  would like to think it was rather Kate's idea. That newbie probably wanted to get results fast but had no common sense.

 

 

It's also possible that Jared sought Kate out and Kate "didn't say no"  ... .we'll never know... regardless for P&E, involving Jared against the wishes of his parents was a double red line crossed ... and now colors everything ... like Nina and her friend that Stan shot ... "but he knew nothing!!!" and Jared's still -- in many ways -- an immature teenager dependent on his parents ... some things you just don't  touch. 

Edited May 17, 2017 by SusanSunflower

[Roseanna]

35 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

... some things you just don't  touch. 

I dont think the Center cared a bit of it. But I have hard to believe that they didn't realize how Jared's parents would react.

[Roseanna]

Once more about being "honest and upright": they are admirable qualities irl, but in fiction "honest and upright" persons makes a very dull story. For a scene where the characters mean just what they say, is boring. The audience must have left pondering: although he said A, he probably meant B or C. 

Nina is a good protagonist (at least during the seasons 1&2) because we know more of her than Stan or anybody else, but even we see him with Stan and teh Russians, we never know her completely.  

[SusanSunflower]

Nina was "entrepreneurial" -- black market style -- and her activities got "caught" .... she was enterprising and greedy ... if known, that would have made her unsuitable to continue working at the rezidentura ... nothing violent or "conventionally" treasonous, but utterly unsuitable for a position of trust and social prominence ... and she would have likely been punished severely "as an example" ... 

Stan acts under "color of authority" he has a badge that allows him not only to arrest and "take them into custody" people (which would be kidnapping or unlawful imprisonment if done by a civilian), also to carry and -- for the most part -- use a concealed weapon (which used to be much more tightly controlled) He also is "allowed" generally to demand both identification and information, i.e. "cooperation" ... 

It's apples and oranges ... he was abusing his power.  It's like Stalin versus Hitler ... heads of state had (and still have) a lot of leeway when dealing with insurgency, counterrevolution and separatists, "threats to the state" ... Hitler was killing people who posed no threat ....  Stalin -- as happens unfortunately -- embarked on a reign of terror internal to Russia.  Hilter crossed borders and subjugated people of other nations.  See also North Korea or the Taliban (pre-2001), what the word community is willing and able to do wrt "internal affairs" is limited by international law ...

Edited May 17, 2017 by SusanSunflower

[Umbelina]

22 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I watched the first season again and I  want to comment again.

It's clear to me that Nina was "honest and upfront" to Stan until he killed her friend Vlad and lied about it. Of course we can't be sure about her feelings, but until then she gave him exact information, in fact all the information she had got. Which on the other hand meant that she betrayed her country and her collegues.

Stan, on the other hand, was not "honest and upright" with Nina, not even before he killed Vlad and lied about it. He may have loved Nina, but he had not "her best interests at heart". He used her in order to get so much information as possible and gave her promises he knew he probably could not keep (as Gaad clearly said, that wasn't the practice, so if Stan believed it, he betrayed also himself). His work was always more important than Nina.

There is a scene after Vladi was killed, where Stan again says to Nina that he don't know who killed Vlad. After that Nina says that she has no more a country nor family, she has nothing but "fear and you". I think it accurately sums her situation. It's the first time she deliberately withhelds information from Stan, although she haven't yet made her confession to Arkady, so it seems clearly that she has realized that she can't trust him.    

Also, in the same scene, Nina begins to dress, on her back towards Stan and he comes to her and begins to caress her. It may be that Nina sent an invitation but this time Stan made an initiative, revealing his need for her.  Considering what Nina had just found about Stan's character and what she had said about her own situation, sex is her only way to have some hold on him. Without it, he would have no qualms to offer her.   

 

If Nina was a hustler, Stan was her pimp. And it was Stan who set the trap to Vasily in order to save Nina.   

In the show both Elizabeth and Philip use sex as weapon and at least Martha loves deeply "Clark". So I can't understand why it's Nina who would be most quilty, as she is in mortal danger where she has no other weapons than sex and her wits.

Whatever else one can say about Nina, she knew the rules of the game and could play it admirably well. If she had been a woman who put "love" first, she would be duped like Martha.  

I agree, Nina was a complex character, and a trained KGB agent, unlike Vlad who was so new and didn't even want to be in the KGB.  She was trapped, completely, by trying to smuggle stuff home to her parents, probably to trade for money/food.  Wasn't it electronics equipment and other things.

I do think Stan honestly tried his best to get her out, and eventually came to care for her as much as a guy like Stan could, then of course he went a bit insane.  Spies are more like Gaad, and Elizabeth really, use agents until they are dry, then maybe save them if possible, if not?  Oh well.  I do believe Stan was a bit more naive, or willed himself to be naive.

15 hours ago, Roseanna said:

On the basis of what Jared told to Elizabeth, Kate seduced him at least emotionally. Whether they had an intercourse, doesn't really matter. It was bad enough to make him totally dependent on her.

This plot was ok only because it was revealed in this one episode. For when one begins to think, it was the stupidest strategy one can imagine. Why one would Center who had now two important agents, take the risk to estrange them because of a teenage boy who could maybe be useful after two decades?   

I always thought she completely sexually seduced him, they were never explicit, but it made sense.  Jared could have begun to be useful much sooner, interning in college, all kinds of ways.  He was worth it to the KGB, just like Paige, because they have a real birth certificates.

 

I keep reading both of your posts in Nina's accent!  For a while there I read Roseanna's in Tatianna's but Sunflower's is always in Nina's!  WTH?

Anyway, it made all of your posts very interesting!

[Roseanna]

13 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Jared could have begun to be useful much sooner, interning in college, all kinds of ways.  He was worth it to the KGB, just like Paige, because they have a real birth certificates.

But the question was: was Jared's information as a youth valuable enough if the Center lost information from his parents?

Besides, it would be stupid to use Jared and Paige too early instead of making them "influential persons" who maneuver opinions towards Russian interests.  

[Roseanna]

23 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I do think Stan honestly tried his best to get her out, and eventually came to care for her as much as a guy like Stan could, then of course he went a bit insane.  Spies are more like Gaad, and Elizabeth really, use agents until they are dry, then maybe save them if possible, if not?  Oh well.  I do believe Stan was a bit more naive, or willed himself to be naive.

Yes, maybe Stan believed himself but it was up to Gaad if he could keep his promise. That he lied to Nina in order to make as much use of her as possible, isn't making better by his lying to himself.  

In any case, Stan can't be desribed "honest and upright" in their relationship. If he had really had had "Nina's best interests in heart", he would have let her be and said to Gaad that she has was of no use.

I am not saying that he should have done so, as his job was to get as much as information as possible of the Russians. It just that I don't like his self-justification.

[Umbelina]

30 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

But the question was: was Jared's information as a youth valuable enough if the Center lost information from his parents?

Besides, it would be stupid to use Jared and Paige too early instead of making them "influential persons" who maneuver opinions towards Russian interests.  

As a white house intern or intern to a senator he could be quite useful on the way to his eventual career though, or even in an important company while still in school.  Martha was enormously useful, for example.  Either way, Center continued on with Paige, even after Philip said no vehemently, and they lost two valuable agents.  To them, apparently it matters a great deal.

More than Philip and Elizabeth?  I think we're discussing that now in the latest episode thread.

[Roseanna]

9 hours ago, SusanSunflower said:

Nina was "entrepreneurial" -- black market style -- and her activities got "caught" .... she was enterprising and greedy ... if known, that would have made her unsuitable to continue working at the rezidentura ... nothing violent or "conventionally" treasonous, but utterly unsuitable for a position of trust and social prominence ... and she would have likely been punished severely "as an example" ... 

Stan acts under "color of authority" he has a badge that allows him not only to arrest and "take them into custody" people (which would be kidnapping or unlawful imprisonment if done by a civilian), also to carry and -- for the most part -- use a concealed weapon (which used to be much more tightly controlled) He also is "allowed" generally to demand both identification and information, i.e. "cooperation" ... 

It's apples and oranges ... he was abusing his power.  It's like Stalin versus Hitler ... heads of state had (and still have) a lot of leeway when dealing with insurgency, counterrevolution and separatists, "threats to the state" ... Hitler was killing people who posed no threat ....  Stalin -- as happens unfortunately -- embarked on a reign of terror internal to Russia.  Hilter crossed borders and subjugated people of other nations.  See also North Korea or the Taliban (pre-2001), what the word community is willing and able to do wrt "internal affairs" is limited by international law ...

Comparing ordinary people Stan and Nina mass-murderers Stalin and Hitler not only goes too far but misses the essential point in which this show is so good. First, all intelligence organizations use tactics and methods that are morally doubtful.  Should we condemn only the opponent but not "our side"?   Or should we rather try to understand their motives?     

Second, this show is good to show the general dilemma: all people have been put in such situations that they must make choices: if they are loyal to somebody/ something, they must betray somebody/something else.   

[sistermagpie]

8 hours ago, Roseanna said:

But the question was: was Jared's information as a youth valuable enough if the Center lost information from his parents?

It seems like they thought they could have it all. They wanted Jared committed to them as early as possible, but I would assume they wanted him to continue on the same path he would have had anyway. He was going to Carnegie Melon, iirc. So he could train as an engineer and then just guide that career in a way that would help the Soviets, working where he could spy as well as he could.

They didn't intend on losing the parents over this at all that I can see. That's why they didn't tell them and presumably told Jared not to tell them. Down the line they could probably know, but they seemed to think they could just keep it secret, not realizing that how much you'd unbalance somebody by putting them in that situation. If Paige's situation is stressful on her, Jared's was much more so. He was so wounded by it he was probably somewhat in shock.

[SusanSunflower]

Actually, my point was -- responding to what to my mind was an equally dubious comparison made of Nina with Stan -- was that context and proportionality matter. The Hitler/v/Stalin comparisons are frequent, fast and furious (and ever more popular given the Trump/Russia issues, coals to Newcastle that conflate Stalin's popularity with Putin's, there are comparisons to be made wrt "saving Russia" but mass murder and atrocity is NOT.SO.MUCH.  Wonder if there are Cambodians who get misty over Pol Pot and Khmer Rouge). 

Nina's "original sin" was quite commonplace and even so "garden variety" as to "hardly count" in many people's worlds.  Using the privileges of your job to better yourself -- make or save money, drop names, use contacts.  She showed remarkable growth and "natural talent" as an agent, but she didn't start out as an agent or (afaik) receive training as such.  Vasaly (Nina's friend Stan killed, right name?)  was "KGB" even if he didn't want to be and didn't know anything ... like many Baathists in Iraq or Communist Party Members, it was simply a job/career expectation/requirement. 

[sistermagpie]

21 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

She showed remarkable growth and "natural talent" as an agent, but she didn't start out as an agent or (afaik) receive training as such.

Yes, she did start out as an agent. This used to be a big question with people thinking she was a secretary but the showrunners confirmed she was a KGB agent on her first tour.

[SusanSunflower]

I know what's bugging me sooo much  --- if Kate (and if Claudia) knew that Jared killed his parents** they also knew that Larrick didn't ... which was something it was very very **dangerous** to not have shared with P&E, particularly if P&E put themselves and else at risk trying to pursue him/avenge the murders.  There has been reference in summary plot lines, they didn't know that he had returned to the USA from Nicaragua (how conveeenient) but did Kate and/or Claudia know he was temporarily "safe" from P&E's grasp?  Being P&E must be mentally exhausting but I think they must have KGB resources beyond the phone network and Claudia/Kate .... 

I'm just starting season 3, but they are still "intelligence agents" needing context and backgrounding rather than simply assasins/hitmen who just need a photo and an address. 

** I'm not sure how much time has passed since the murders -- at least couple months I think -- in which Jared and Kate knew "the truth" while P&E and Claudia were mourning and blaming Larrick ... 

Edited May 18, 2017 by SusanSunflower

[Roseanna]

2 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Yes, she did start out as an agent. This used to be a big question with people thinking she was a secretary but the showrunners confirmed she was a KGB agent on her first tour.

That's not what we saw in the show. And when Arkady promoted her, he make her read the oath. If she had been an agent, why didn't she have done it already?

Of course an agent can mean many things. 

[Roseanna]

7 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

if Kate (and if Claudia) knew that Jared killed his parents 

I don't believe it. Then they would have known that Jared would never make an good agent who (as Claudia always stressed) follows orders, despite personal feelings. Instead Jared could become berserk again and do much harm to the cause. If Kate had sense at all, she would know that if Jared ever discoved the truth that she didn't love him but was only manipulating him, or if he discoved her with some other man, he would kill her, too. In short, if they knew, Jared was too great a risk.  

[sistermagpie]

14 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

That's not what we saw in the show. And when Arkady promoted her, he make her read the oath. If she had been an agent, why didn't she have done it already?

 

On the show we were never told anything specific about her job. I don't know if she'd taken the oath before or anything, but it doesn't make that much to promote a secretary to a place where they're going to get intel about Illegals.

[SusanSunflower]

But Jared killed his parents so they (he and Kate) could be together .... do you think he -- crazy-mixed-up, utterly-remorseless, love-struck kid -- didn't tell her during their multiple post-murder meetings?   I think he would have told her, even bragged about "commitment" ...  

ETA:  As I recall, Nina appeared to be a receptionist.  I don't recall she had "secretarial access" -- drafting memos and communiques to transmit -- don't remember, but I seem to remember the station chief working on a memo with someone else ) -- she quite deliberately seduced her boss (who clearly liked her in a bright young thing daughterly way) AFTER Stan ... and made clear she was eager and ambitious -- eager for expanded duties.

eta2:  Did she have more or "deeper" access than Martha with Gaad?  Martha can tell which way the wind blows by what she overhears, meetings she sets up, documents she requisitions from records, etc.  Nina seemed to set up meetings and field phone calls ... also "wind-reading" 

Edited May 18, 2017 by SusanSunflower

[sistermagpie]

12 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

As I recall, Nina appeared to be a receptionist.

Yes, that's why a lot of people thought she was Martha--a secretary that got nabbed. But the showrunners confirmed that she was "a KGB agent serving her first tour." She was young, so didn't have as important duties as others but she wasn't just support staff. I remember one ep where she said she was going to go out to a bar to listen in on conversations and that didn't sound like a secretary job. No reason to think she wasn't ambitious at all before she was with Stan. We only met her when she met him.

[Roseanna]

11 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Yes, that's why a lot of people thought she was Martha--a secretary that got nabbed. But the showrunners confirmed that she was "a KGB agent serving her first tour." She was young, so didn't have as important duties as others but she wasn't just support staff. I remember one ep where she said she was going to go out to a bar to listen in on conversations and that didn't sound like a secretary job. No reason to think she wasn't ambitious at all before she was with Stan. We only met her when she met him.

What the showrunners say, doesn't matter. Only that matters what we see. If what we see isn't what the showrunners say, they haven't done their job properly.

Of course, a good show allows many interpretations. Nina going out to a bar to listen in on conversation can show that she was an agent but it can also show (as I think) that she was eager to become one. In any case, the reason why she made the suggestion was that she wanted a legitimate posibility to meet Stan and tell him what she had found out.

After Nina confessed, Arkady said that she could turn Stan because she had been able to deceive KGB so long. But actually Nina wasn't so cunning but KGB made an elemental mistake: they evidently never tried to find out if Vasily was right by claiming that he had been staged. If he was guilty, why on earth he had photographed random files when he could have given much more important files to FBI? And if Vasily was staged, Nina was an evident suspect. 

Edited May 19, 2017 by Roseanna

[sistermagpie]

9 hours ago, Roseanna said:

What the showrunners say, doesn't matter. Only that matters what we see. If what we see isn't what the showrunners say, they haven't done their job properly.

Yes, I know. But it's not like we saw Nina being a secretary suddenly throw into agent territory either. Exactly what her job was doesn't much change the story so it's not really a problem.

[Roseanna]

14 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Yes, I know. But it's not like we saw Nina being a secretary suddenly throw into agent territory either. Exactly what her job was doesn't much change the story so it's not really a problem.

When we got to learn Nina, it was a mystery what her job was. She sat on her desk, listened to others (just like Martha) and went outside to meet Stan.  She had access to some secret files which she photographed in order to trap Vasily. But even after she was promoted, she wasn't allowed to participate in operational meetings. 

On the basis of this, before Stan Nina's job was some kind of paper work whose importancy in the show was generally undervalued (understandably from them dramatic POV). 

In Western societies, one can get most political information from public sources, like reading newspapers. Only, one must have an ability to analyze it. Stalin's problem was that agents told him what they supposed he wanted to hear. Even when he got precise secret information, he insisted to analyze it himself and did it according to ideology.

In the Soviet foreign policy there were three lines to handle matters: foreign office line, party line and KGB. The latter was least ideological and most practical.

The plot that Nina goes to a pub to listen talk doesn't prove that she was an agent for it was a public room to which any Soviet diplomat or a Soviet citizern in whatever capacity could go. But it would have been quite needless for surely KGB agents had top contacts with White House, just as they had during the Cuban missile crisis. These contacts did nothing wrong, it was a accoeted way to get precise information that could prevent the war. 

On the other hand, talking with any member of the Soviet embassy one must remember that they could and would report to KGB. 

[sistermagpie]

8 hours ago, Roseanna said:

The plot that Nina goes to a pub to listen talk doesn't prove that she was an agent for it was a public room to which any Soviet diplomat or a Soviet citizern in whatever capacity could go. But it would have been quite needless for surely KGB agents had top contacts with White House, just as they had during the Cuban missile crisis. These contacts did nothing wrong, it was a accoeted way to get precise information that could prevent the war. 

I didn't say it proved it. I'm saying that we never were told specifically what her job was and while many viewers drew the conclusion that she was a secretary thrown into the job of actual agent and that was not the intention of the writers (however much weight any particular viewer wants to give that). Just as there was no lines of her saying "I'm an actual agent" there were also no lines of anybody saying she was an actual secretary and now was having to act as a spy. When she told Stan she might be read into the Illegals program he didn't express surprise that they'd do that for a secretary, or ask why she was promoted to an agent either.

Edited May 20, 2017 by sistermagpie

[Umbelina]

Yes, both Nina and Vlad were KGB.  This was both of their first overseas posting, but, and I can't site dialogue right now, Nina was more experienced in the KGB than Vlad.  She'd been an agent for a while, and it's a pretty big coup to be assigned to the USA, so she had some background.  Vlad had connections of some sort, his father pushing him into this job which he didn't want.

She was certainly no secretary, but neither was she given access to Top level information, until her promotion.  Much like the CIA or FBI, you start with the small stuff, do well, get exposed to more.

[sistermagpie]

On 5/20/2017 at 9:33 PM, Umbelina said:

She was certainly no secretary, but neither was she given access to Top level information, until her promotion.  Much like the CIA or FBI, you start with the small stuff, do well, get exposed to more.

I've been re-watching the Russian scenes in s1 recently and they really do make it perfectly clear she's not a secretary early on. Even if a secretary would be allowed to hang out in a bar to pick up intel (which I don't think they would be), they wouldn't stop by the Rezident's office to tell him they're doing it and get told to report directly to the Rezident about it when they get back.

Then Nina gets promoted to what I think the subtitles call "second lieutenant" and is given her own office and read into the bug mission and ordered to find out everything she can about CIA agents--this is all before she's confessed that she's been turned.