John Potts July 4, 2017 Share July 4, 2017 Quote Dr. Bashir is challenged to prove the Dominion did not turn him into a spy while he was their prisoner. Wow - I'd forgotten how late in the game Section 31 showed up. For an organisation who (ultimately) were such a major player in how things turned out (errm, Spoiler! I guess), it's amazing to think they barely appeared for 1 Season (on DS9 - I know they also appeared on Enterprise). And you can't deny that while they are likened to the Tal Shiar and the Obsidian Order and so therefore essentially villainous organisations to the liberal writers/viewership (myself included) - Sloan does actually have a point, that even the most progressive societies sometimes need ruthless individuals who are prepared to step outside the law. DS9 was good about making its villains 3-Dimensional: while we never doubt that Sloan (and by extension, Section 31) is capable of anything, we never get the impression he's anything but sincere. Of course, as I am a liberal, I inherently side with Bashir - of course he can't prove himself innocent, because it's impossible to prove a negative, even if Bashir is under Federation (like UK or US) Law and should not have to prove it at all. And the fact that Section 31 is accountable to NOBODY should worry even the most hawkish Federation citizen. It's a good job IRL the security services are fully democratically accountable, right? 1 Link to comment
readster July 4, 2017 Share July 4, 2017 Yes, I loved the concept behind Section 31 and even later on in season 7 just how they operated and that Sloan gave up a lot to be who he was for the "greater good". Yet, there were moments that they did go so far and I know if Enterprise would have made it a 5th season, they were going to deal with Malcolm's involvement more and how they wanted to take out Terr Firma. I did like later on when Sisko said that Section 31 over stepped their bonds to where it was mass murder for "the greater good". Link to comment
legaleagle53 July 4, 2017 Share July 4, 2017 5 hours ago, John Potts said: Wow - I'd forgotten how late in the game Section 31 showed up. For an organisation who (ultimately) were such a major player in how things turned out (errm, Spoiler! I guess), it's amazing to think they barely appeared for 1 Season (on DS9 - I know they also appeared on Enterprise). And you can't deny that while they are likened to the Tal Shiar and the Obsidian Order and so therefore essentially villainous organisations to the liberal writers/viewership (myself included) - Sloan does actually have a point, that even the most progressive societies sometimes need ruthless individuals who are prepared to step outside the law. DS9 was good about making its villains 3-Dimensional: while we never doubt that Sloan (and by extension, Section 31) is capable of anything, we never get the impression he's anything but sincere. Of course, as I am a liberal, I inherently side with Bashir - of course he can't prove himself innocent, because it's impossible to prove a negative, even if Bashir is under Federation (like UK or US) Law and should not have to prove it at all. And the fact that Section 31 is accountable to NOBODY should worry even the most hawkish Federation citizen. It's a good job IRL the security services are fully democratically accountable, right? Have you been paying attention to the last two election cycles in the US and the UK? Or were you being ironic? Both countries have their own versions of Section 31, believe me, and they're not as subtle in their movements as you might think they are. Link to comment
Melgaypet July 4, 2017 Share July 4, 2017 Real-life security and intelligence agencies aren't really analogous to Section 31. They may be rife with corruption and abuse of power and the system of accountability may not always work as it should, but there is a system of government oversight and accountability. Section 31 has none. They are completely autonomous and @John Potts is correct, that should concern anyone who learns about them, whether they agree with their actions or not. Inevitably, Section 31's greatest concern will be -and probably already is - protecting itself and not the Federation, no matter what excuses are offered. 1 Link to comment
John Potts July 4, 2017 Author Share July 4, 2017 1 hour ago, legaleagle53 said: Have you been paying attention to the last two election cycles in the US and the UK? I may not be happy with the operation of the CIA/MI6 (or any other intelligence agency) but they do at least report to elected authorities - Section 31 don't answer to anyone except themselves. So though I was being somewhat sarcastic, they are clearly worse than any intelligence agency (at least in the West). Link to comment
The Crazed Spruce July 4, 2017 Share July 4, 2017 4 hours ago, legaleagle53 said: Have you been paying attention to the last two election cycles in the US and the UK? Just a reminder that politics is off-limits here in this forum, except when it pertains directly to the episode in question. Link to comment
Maverick July 4, 2017 Share July 4, 2017 (edited) I thought questioning Bashir's time with the Dominion was just a pretense and the whole encounter with Sloan was ultimately an evaluation of Bashir to be recruited in Section 31. The whole question of the need for a Section 31 type organization is an interesting one. One that has no easy, clear or correct answer. No society can be completely open, transparent and humane when the enemy has no rules or limits. So how far are you willing to go to protect you society and bend its high ideals to protect it and how honest are you about it. Do you be an honest hypocrite, a defeated idealist or victorious liar? Edited July 4, 2017 by Maverick Link to comment
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