S04.E17: Identity and Change

[Raja]

However The Doctor wasn't the SHIELD Coulson team engineer. He was a survivor of the Hydra take over and whatever off screen war against the Inhumans that occurs 

[TVSpectator]

2 hours ago, Raja said:

However The Doctor wasn't the SHIELD Coulson team engineer. He was a survivor of the Hydra take over and whatever off screen war against the Inhumans that occurs 

Okay, I get that "The Doctor" (being an evil version of Fitz) was part of Hydra (a full fledged member) but just don't buy that having Fitz's father around would've totally changed him. In my opinion, its always there with Fitz- right under the surface waiting to be released. 

Edited October 3, 2017 by TVSpectator

[Lobsel Vith]

1 hour ago, TVSpectator said:

Overall it just seems that the writers just write out stuff either as a means to see "what sticks" and/or just doesn't care and would want to have things both ways. Like how in Season 1 Coulson's team was supposed to be the team of misfits but instead they had two highly skilled agents- not to mentioned the two supposedly best scientists SHIELD has ever seen, since Howard and Tony Stark. Or that Simmons and Fitz are supposed to be totally out of place when in the filed but they seem like the totally capable person- to the point where somehow Fitz learned how to handle his own in street fighting this season. 

I get what you're saying. Given that Fury used one of Fitz's devices in TWS, I'd say that there's something of a transition between the early and later part of Season One regarding how Fitz is framed as an inventor. When Fitz heads to the academy, it's said he's regarded as the smartest person who ever left the school, but that does call into question whether Hand would have realistically put Fitz in any danger if he was such an asset to SHIELD during the mission where Ward and Fitz head into dangerous territory, and why he's part of a team instead of heading his own science division.

1 hour ago, TVSpectator said:

Overall, to me, it's just the writers wanting it both ways. Which, in my opinion, shows that the writers really don't give a damn about what they write and would write things to please a small core fanbase. I mean as a comic book fan I hate how they would totally change like everything about comic book characters (because to me that says that they really don't like the source material where these characters/concepts come from) and also that they are trying to make us not only like the main characters but to have them be not only the best at SHIELD but like in the whole MCU.  

Admittedly, I know that's subjective given how viewers can feel about some of the changes from the comics to the screen. I didn't mind how Robbie Reyes was handled on the show despite his differences from the comic book version. I don't deny some of the problems with the writing, though - I look at the ending episodes of Season 2 and how poorly the 'REAL SHIELD' arc was handled, as well as Gonzalez going from a guy who looked at powered people in a derogatory fashion to a guy then trying to make peace with the very people he didn't have any real respect for just so the show could frame it as a 'surprise'. I felt the same way about the truth regarding Mace since no mystery is previously established with the briefcase until the episode when it's exposed.

1 hour ago, TVSpectator said:

2. We actually had about 3 1/2 (roughly) angsty seasons with Fitz and Simmons. It all started in Season 1 where Fitz didn't have enough courage to tell Simmons he was in love with her BUT he had enough courage to talk to Skye-Daisy (my name for the character because she just has so many names attached to her. And she was introduced to us as Skye and was going by that name as well in Season 1) who was a total stranger to him (aside from the fact that his team just caught her hacking into SHIELD's system and had vowed to "bring them down" through her Raising Tide while also living in a van), at the time, BUT Simmons was like his closets (if not only) friend he ever had for like 10 years by then. 

The problem there is that you have a romance that exists because fans wanted them together (which I can understand given how they have a lot of screentime together, but I don't necessarily think it was the best choice to make, particularly as the show never explains why Fitz suddenly falls in love with her), which is why you have this transition of the pair being touted as brother and sister (even by the actors and the showrunners at the time) and then becoming a couple despite knowing each other for ten years. Maybe it's just me, but it doesn't feel realistic that two people would know each other for ten years and one of them would suddenly develop romantic feelings for a close friend.

1 hour ago, TVSpectator said:

Also, I never heard about ABC forcing the showrunners into rushing their relationship? I always thought that it was the online shippers' demands and the fact that they totally screwed up by not only introducing Will but then totally screwed up handling the Will story as well. 

A while back, Fogh made reference to an interview by Maurissa Tancharoen and Jed Whedon as to why Fitz and Simmons came together as quickly as they did in Season 3B - where they said that ABC wanted Fitz and Simmons to come together more quickly than they had planned. I don't think ABC originally asked them to pair Fitz or Simmons together in Season 1 or anything like that (and I'd question the wisdom of pairing two people together when most of the episodes during the first season relegated them to working together, since it cut off any other potential pairings from being explored - like Simmons and Trip, for example), but I can imagine the endless angst that was starting ever since Trip became a member of the crew was probably dragging on way too long for some.

[TVSpectator]

47 minutes ago, Lobsel Vith said:

I get what you're saying. Given that Fury used one of Fitz's devices in TWS, I'd say that there's something of a transition between the early and later part of Season One regarding how Fitz is framed as an inventor. When Fitz heads to the academy, it's said he's regarded as the smartest person who ever left the school, but that does call into question whether Hand would have realistically put Fitz in any danger if he was such an asset to SHIELD during the mission where Ward and Fitz head into dangerous territory, and why he's part of a team instead of heading his own science division.[/quote]

1

This to me just speaks of what they wanted it both ways. I doubt that Victoria Hand really cared if Fitz went missing and/or dead, back in THE HUB, BUT the show just kept on insisting that Fitz is some kind of special engineer since the time of Howard and Tony Stark. Also, that TWS tie-in (the one about Fury using one of Fitz's devices) always grates at me for some reason. I don't know but I feel like that was so shoehorn (and yes that had to be after the fact that the movie came out and I could swear that Fury said that there were multiple people that invented it and/or never bothered to mention who made it. BUT the show wanted Fitz to be the sole inventor of it, which was stated on the show).

47 minutes ago, Lobsel Vith said:

Admittedly, I know that's subjective given how viewers can feel about some of the changes from the comics to the screen. I didn't mind how Robbie Reyes was handled on the show despite his differences from the comic book version. I don't deny some of the problems with the writing, though - I look at the ending episodes of Season 2 and how poorly the 'REAL SHIELD' arc was handled, as well as Gonzalez going from a guy who looked at powered people in a derogatory fashion to a guy then trying to make peace with the very people he didn't have any real respect for just so the show could frame it as a 'surprise'. I felt the same way about the truth regarding Mace since no mystery is previously established with the briefcase until the episode when it's exposed.[/quote]

 

Yes, I do know that it is very subjected in nature and that in any transition to any media there are going to be changes. But in Robbie's case, it felt like they took the character and just totally rewrote him. He really had nothing to share with the Robbie Reyes from the comics but only in name, he drove a classic car and his family. Hell, in the comics his Uncle is really a fucked up evil person but in this version, it's implied that Eli got corrupted by the Darkhold and that was why he was evil. 

As with wanting it both ways- yeah they have been like this since Season 1, IMO. Overall, I feel like it's just lazy writing and/or poor setup that is causing this. Like how you pointed out that Gonzalez's character and also Mace. And I think that they totally wanted us to not trust Mace, and to have all the main characters go, "yeah that guy I don't trust" BUT why? ANd then later not only do they trust Mace it turns out that he seemed to be more eagar to rescue/help people than the main characters (all they really cared about were themselves). 

47 minutes ago, Lobsel Vith said:

The problem there is that you have a romance that exists because fans wanted them together (which I can understand given how they have a lot of screentime together, but I don't necessarily think it was the best choice to make, particularly as the show never explains why Fitz suddenly falls in love with her), which is why you have this transition of the pair being touted as brother and sister (even by the actors and the showrunners at the time) and then becoming a couple despite knowing each other for ten years. Maybe it's just me, but it doesn't feel realistic that two people would know each other for ten years and one of them would suddenly develop romantic feelings for a close friend.

1

Yeah, Fitz and Simmons never struck me as people who were deeply in romantic love. I got the friendship part and even the brother and sister part but never the romantic part. I guess people just started to ship them to a point where the showrunners were like, "oh okay we will give them a Will They/Won't They storyline and fill it with angst". Like they didn't know how to hook them up but wanted to because of the shippers (and honestly since when do shows ever listen to shippers? Coming from the Star Trek community that thing was never to be fulfilled by any showrunners- no matter how loud and angry the shippers got- because they will always come back to watch the show in the end). It just feels so loop sided because it's like Fitz has gotten everything he ever wanted- Simmons. While Simmons had to deal with Trip's and Will's death and any concerns she had about dating Fitz was just swept under the rug. Yeah, I would file this under as another thing that the show mishandled and could've done better. Also, I believe that Coulson and May are headed in the same direction. Personally, if they were going to put them together I would've just done it in Season 1 and be done with it. 

As with the whole ", they are a family" thing kinds of pops up from time to time so that isn't really dead and it is kind of gross when you think about it (which just points as to why they should've never have been paired up in the first place).  Also, the angst- way too much angst for a couple that is supposedly a) madly in love and b) soul mates/true lovers (which I think that they are not totally in love with each other but the writers are just forcing them together for the shippers). 

47 minutes ago, Lobsel Vith said:

A while back, Fogh made reference to an interview by Maurissa Tancharoen and Jed Whedon as to why Fitz and Simmons came together as quickly as they did in Season 3B - where they said that ABC wanted Fitz and Simmons to come together more quickly than they had planned. I don't think ABC originally asked them to pair Fitz or Simmons together in Season 1 or anything like that (and I'd question the wisdom of pairing two people together when most of the episodes during the first season relegated them to working together, since it cut off any other potential pairings from being explored - like Simmons and Trip, for example), but I can imagine the endless angst that was starting ever since Trip became a member of the crew was probably dragging on way too long for some.

I have never heard about that but I would like to see a link. It's not that I don't believe you but I just want to see it myself.